Got to the game 10-15 mins before kick off in the end and had around 45 mins to mull over the team selections. On Bristol Rovers all we agreed was that Scott Sinclair would net against us at some point, but it was the drain of our optimism (which we had plenty of before the team was announced) that turned out to be justified.
We could not fathom why Tennai Watson was selected ahead of Kayne, how Anderson stayed in having hustled and bustled with no value add in every appearance thus far this season, or how Gas came back into the side?
I think Berry won more in the air than Gas who will run all day, but so did Forrest Gump, that doesn’t warrant leafing an attack when in poor form.
Tennai offered absolutely nothing, nor did Anderson, while most criminal of all we played ineffective long ball football while Rovers knocked it around quite nicely at times. It was like a team reversal situation in terms of expectation and application.
What would have I done differently? Started Kayne, Docherty (telling him to put a skipper’s shift in and start leading by example) and Chuks and Godden in from the start too accepting Leaburn would likely play the second half and TC would run them ragged after the main pairing had worn their defenders down. This is not hindsight, the point is that there were some obvious issues going into the game, so how or why they unfolded, God only knows?
The late flurry provides false optimism, both the coaching staff and players need to go back to doing the basics exceptionally well, starting with playing our best options in their natural positions.
Finally, it may just be me but I find NJ’s style a bit counterintuitive. Early in game if a pass gets misplaced or there is a defensive slip he fairly goes nuts at individuals or the team. However, when we concede having not scored beforehand, he clearly gets the hump and actually looks quite deflated on the sideline. That surely is the time where you gee up, go mad at the individual not doing their job and particularly if in the second half make an example and substitute them? By the way, unlike a few too many imho, I am a fan of his and know that he wants the best for the club and will be hurting as much as us, but I do hope he helps himself ahead of Birmingham, otherwise we will be looking at four losses on a spin…
Can I ask what a situation is ? Fuck me in his post match interview he said we created plenty of situations, christ are we that bad that we have given up on creating chances and it is now situations !!!
Come on @Callumcafc you’ve got some bloody work to do here feller..,.
I’ll get my xG spreadsheet out just for you.
Back of the envelope maths, given the chances created by both sides…
Charlton win tonight’s game ~60 out of 100 times and Bristol Rovers win ~15 out of 100 times.
:-)
We created all our chances when the game was already lost. Got to consider game state when looking at xG. Bristol Rovers didn’t create any chances at the end because they didn’t need too, we desperately threw everything at it because we had nothing to lose. It was a terrible performance and 10 mins of long ball to Aneke creating a few chances doesn’t change that
Before and up to Bristol Rovers second goal, we had created more than them and before and up to their third goal, we had created more than them. It wasn’t all just from the last 15 minutes after we went 3 down and the game was lost.
It’s not a high bar to clear and it reflects poorly on both sides’ attacking output. But we already knew we had problems there.
It’s just a couple flying in from outside the box on 0.03 and 0.06 xG so then we don’t create anything of note AND lose the game which makes everything feel even worse.
It’s barely anything though, against a really poor side. That first half is an embarrassment and it’s worrying that we looked at that and made no changes at half time. Really don’t think any other good side in this league struggles to beat that Bristol rovers side. We only put them under any sustained pressure when it was already 3-0
We looked so much better with Godden and Chuks on.
That’s twice this season Chuks has crossed for Godden to finish. Those two need to lead the attack from the off on Saturday.
Birmingham are one of the teams that will play out from the back at all costs, like Bolton did. Aneke can’t start against that kind of team, he will mean our press is totally ineffective
I can't help thinking something changed after the bolton game - NJ got all bold and made the strange comment about Docherty being able to play the CAM role and it was lucky he was making the decisions as others in the set up didn't think he could. I thought at the time that that was an aggressive / power play type of thing to say. Since then, Docherty has been shit, we've signed 3 more ex luton players and Paul Hart has retired and the wheels have fallen off. I felt at the time that that comment may have been aimed at Scott but maybe it wasn't and has disrupted the whole coaching team. Maybe not however and maybe we've just been rumbled by the opposition managers as being a very limited team.
Having had a nights sleep, I am still dumbfounded as to how we look worse than the back end of last season when the only better players to leave were Dobson and May...
We looked awful defensively, worse in attack until Chuks, Miles and Godden came on and we may as well have played with 8 men for all the midfield did.
Coventry is too safe on the ball.
Anderson needs to work on his passing and tackling.
Berry tries to move forward on the ball, but does not track back enough.
The constant punts up the wing are wasteful from Gillesphey. They are so predictable. We don't have wingers getting on the end of them as we don't play with wingers.
I don't know what the answer is, but if we continue to look this bad it has to bring questions over the tenure of Nathan Jones.
People last night were spot on, we've had owners that refused to spend, good managers, bad managers, good players, bad players and the result is midtable League 1 time and time again. I am sick of the curse of League 1.
Went to bed annoyed and woke up annoyed; we've got our Charlton back. Rubbish, worst we've played under Jones by some distance. The fact we were in it at all is a reflection on how incredibly bad Bristol Rovers were, but they still walked all over us. On the plus side, 10 games in is a good time to assess where we are and even if we somehow beat Birmingham it will still not be looking brilliant, so we're ahead of schedule!
We're just such a weird bunch at the moment. The defensive solidity yesterday wasn't completely gone, we were still a lot less comedy than we used to be but every shot from outside the box goes in. When you watch all the shots like that we've conceded, there's always an issue in the midfield that's caused it, pretty much always it's that Berry or Docherty is either trailing behind the man who runs through or doesn't get close enough to close down the shot. There's a real issue with tracking through the midfield and it gives players too much time to line up their shots. It's still insane the number of shots that are proper hits but we can do more about them. The third goal really wound me up though, exactly the kind of goal we haven't been conceding this season and a worrying sign.
It all boils down to the midfield in the end. The defence are pumping it long and seeing it come back before they're set again. The wingbacks are brought into play early in the move and then have nowhere to go but backwards, meaning they don't push on further into the opposition half. The only time we get crosses in is when the WB starts very high, and even then we've had Small crossing from deep rather than putting it across the face of goal. The strikers get high long balls to either chase or win in the air and no-one supporting them. If our midfield functioned it would be able to take the ball off a defender, pass it around centrally and wide to create space and allow movement to happen off the ball, at which point a move could develop. We just don't do it, and now that for some reason the aggressive press isn't happening anymore it means we're playing in three completely separate phases on the pitch. Jones seems to have lost the ability to get them to press high and win those percentage balls in the opposition half and if he can't get that to happen then the long diagonals need to stop, because there's no-one trying to win the second ball or pick off the ball in front of the opposition goal. It's currently the same effect as us returning the ball to the opposition after a stoppage. Very sporting of us, but not great for winning matches.
Jones' strategy isn't a pretty one but when it works it involves aggressive high energy pressing and if that's off the menu then a new style has to develop because right now we're playing 75 minutes like a team desperately trying to defend a lead, and then 10-15 minutes where we actually look dangerous. It's increasingly too little too late that. Every single one of our players would look better if we just held the ball a bit more and let players move around the pitch to create something, I really hope the conversation on the training ground from now on is about finding a man with the ball not hitting a space. Otherwise we're in trouble.
Three clubs who are enjoying some success at present have appointed managers with very little playing experience at the professional level; Ipswich, Birmingham and Lincoln, clubs of a similar size to us who have had little success until quite recently. (Certainly other clubs enjoying some success, Blackpool for instance, are doing so with grizzled old pros as their manager) Is it time for our owners/directors to seek out a coach with wide experience of developing players from youth up to first team EFL/Prem level to manage our club ? We need fresh ideas and we need them quickly, ideas not gained from the day to day slog of managing under pressure, ideas to do with modern playing and training ways and proper man/player management. I haven't a clue who, but I am not 'in the know' around professional football. I hadn't heard of Davies, McKenna or Skubala until recently, but the shrewdies in charge at other clubs certainly had heard of them and did something about it
It was a very, very bad night against extremely poor opposition. Jones out, GFP out and all the rest of it is way over the top! 9 games in for goodness sake.
Jones can stay, the three clowns trying to run things can go.
Can't make my mind up if Jones is another waste of space manager. Started really well last year, but that was truly awful last night. Bad selections, pedestrian and boring midfield and boring and ineffectual hoofball. He won't get away with "taking full responsibility ", many times before he actually does. Ahadme looks a genuine donkey, don't really see Leaburn as anything special and Doherty, Berry and Campbell look ordinary at best. People were saying all summer we needed a proper creative midfielder and it wasn't addressed. I so hoped this season would be different.
Ffs, Leaburn has not played all season, you cannot blame him.
I know it was a shit show yesterday, and has been for some time, but we can't keep blaming it all on whatever manager happens to be there at the time, there is something much deeper within the structure of the club that needs sorting, until that is done it doesn't matter who the fu*k you get at the helm, we will still be stuck in this shite bloody league...🤦♂️
Are people genuinely asking for Jones to go, or are they just frustrated right now?
not looking to dig anyone out here, genuinely interested.
if they do who do they want brought in?
It doesn’t matter who you bring in to manage, this goes much deeper and rests with the owners. Being run by Charlie and Scott while they are backed up by a bunch of faceless investors is asking for trouble.
We needed them to dig deep into their pockets this season to make it work, instead they sold the family silver and gave it to Jones
Coventry hadn't taken a set-piece all game, it was weird they stuck him on one. I've noticed that he has a tendency to overhit them going for the far post, I wonder if that's something they've been focusing on in training - going for the far post for the nod-back. Our goal at Shrewsbury was of that type. Other teams seem to simply whip it directly into the danger area
Edward’s took the corners, and did ok. He was subbed.
Still more than a bit shell-shocked by what I saw last night...... have been away for a couple of weeks and only really paid attention to the results not the performances........ well, what a dismal 90-odd minutes....... when we got those goals at the end it had already got to the stage where I couldn't have cared less. I'm slightly worried about Karoy and TC, I think they got their chance last season more because there was no-one else than because they were good and ready for it. In another set-up I think they'd have gone on loan to learn and get experience at a lower level....... and they'd have come back all the better for it, but that didn't happen and now they're 2 of our attacking force........ not only aren't they ready but they're hardly surrounded by good, confident players who can 'carry' them through a game. I have no doubt they're learning but given what else we are showing going forward I don't think we can 'afford' to have them playing so many minutes. It doesn't take much, even in this division, for underhit passes to put unnecessary pressure on and it can even lead to us conceding goals....... never mind that they are still learning the craft of coming away with the ball in 50/50 tussels, positional sense when we're in and out of possession..... etc, etc.
The most worrying thing is that the latter part of last season indicated Jones knew how to shore up the defence, amke us more solid/resilient, and give us a base to build on with the summer signings + pre season. We started the season ok (still had the overall resilience which got us some results, but lacked creativity), yet it has gone backwards and over the last 3 performances in particular, we've needed Jones to revert back to giving us that defensive resilience yet we've gone backwards, to the point of being 3-0 to a poor Bristol Rovers side.
The team selection is baffling to be honest, constant switching of the defence which was the one part of the team that looked solid, whilst sticking with the likes of Anderson in midfield and Ahadme up front, dropping Docherty as captain, the disappearance of Small, Taylor not getting a look in etc.
"We need a horrible scrappy 1-0 win that we need to fight for."
It worries me that even the players don't think that we can dominate a game to beat the opposition. Scraping horrible wins is the tactics of a side trying to stay up, not one trying to go up.
We've had dark days before, but it's been a very long time (decades) since I can recall seeing so many very committed fans get so disillusioned.
Deep-level apathy is setting in, the kind that sees people drift away and crowds tumble (like many others here, I was glad I had other plans last night).
I can't get enthused about another change of manager and January makeover. It's hard to get enthused about anything.
One additional point: our academy is not delivering. Anderson struggling, TC inconsistent, Asiimwe out on loan and possibly going backwards, Zak seemingly not ready? (Don't even mention Henry). Just Miles to hope for. It's a poor return given that we just need decent L1 players at this point...in the past we've been producing Premiership players (even when being in L1 or Champ ourselves). Think Shelvey, Gomez, Konsa then add in Cousins, Solly, Fox, Phillips, Grant etc.
"We need a horrible scrappy 1-0 win that we need to fight for."
It worries me that even the players don't think that we can dominate a game to beat the opposition. Scraping horrible wins is the tactics of a side trying to stay up, not one trying to go up.
A 2-2 draw in which we actually try to play some football would give me a lot more encouragement for the season than another scrappy 1-0 win. Another scrappy 1-0 win just papers over the cracks and we will end up back here a few games later
"We need a horrible scrappy 1-0 win that we need to fight for."
It worries me that even the players don't think that we can dominate a game to beat the opposition. Scraping horrible wins is the tactics of a side trying to stay up, not one trying to go up.
Those words should be set in stone and Concrete Croydon: That was my thoughts after the wins against Wigan, Orient and Shrewsbury. A coin flip said another poster and when the opposition have their shooting boots on we lose as against Reading, Blackpool (plus headed OG!) and Rovers last night.
Three clubs who are enjoying some success at present have appointed managers with very little playing experience at the professional level; Ipswich, Birmingham and Lincoln, clubs of a similar size to us who have had little success until quite recently. (Certainly other clubs enjoying some success, Blackpool for instance, are doing so with grizzled old pros as their manager) Is it time for our owners/directors to seek out a coach with wide experience of developing players from youth up to first team EFL/Prem level to manage our club ? We need fresh ideas and we need them quickly, ideas not gained from the day to day slog of managing under pressure, ideas to do with modern playing and training ways and proper man/player management. I haven't a clue who, but I am not 'in the know' around professional football. I hadn't heard of Davies, McKenna or Skubala until recently, but the shrewdies in charge at other clubs certainly had heard of them and did something about it
we need owners who are going to spend tens of million pounds a year on our squad of players, to get the best in, first and foremost.
Comments
The late flurry provides false optimism, both the coaching staff and players need to go back to doing the basics exceptionally well, starting with playing our best options in their natural positions.
We looked awful defensively, worse in attack until Chuks, Miles and Godden came on and we may as well have played with 8 men for all the midfield did.
Coventry is too safe on the ball.
Anderson needs to work on his passing and tackling.
Berry tries to move forward on the ball, but does not track back enough.
The constant punts up the wing are wasteful from Gillesphey. They are so predictable. We don't have wingers getting on the end of them as we don't play with wingers.
I don't know what the answer is, but if we continue to look this bad it has to bring questions over the tenure of Nathan Jones.
People last night were spot on, we've had owners that refused to spend, good managers, bad managers, good players, bad players and the result is midtable League 1 time and time again. I am sick of the curse of League 1.
We're just such a weird bunch at the moment. The defensive solidity yesterday wasn't completely gone, we were still a lot less comedy than we used to be but every shot from outside the box goes in. When you watch all the shots like that we've conceded, there's always an issue in the midfield that's caused it, pretty much always it's that Berry or Docherty is either trailing behind the man who runs through or doesn't get close enough to close down the shot. There's a real issue with tracking through the midfield and it gives players too much time to line up their shots. It's still insane the number of shots that are proper hits but we can do more about them. The third goal really wound me up though, exactly the kind of goal we haven't been conceding this season and a worrying sign.
It all boils down to the midfield in the end. The defence are pumping it long and seeing it come back before they're set again. The wingbacks are brought into play early in the move and then have nowhere to go but backwards, meaning they don't push on further into the opposition half. The only time we get crosses in is when the WB starts very high, and even then we've had Small crossing from deep rather than putting it across the face of goal. The strikers get high long balls to either chase or win in the air and no-one supporting them. If our midfield functioned it would be able to take the ball off a defender, pass it around centrally and wide to create space and allow movement to happen off the ball, at which point a move could develop. We just don't do it, and now that for some reason the aggressive press isn't happening anymore it means we're playing in three completely separate phases on the pitch. Jones seems to have lost the ability to get them to press high and win those percentage balls in the opposition half and if he can't get that to happen then the long diagonals need to stop, because there's no-one trying to win the second ball or pick off the ball in front of the opposition goal. It's currently the same effect as us returning the ball to the opposition after a stoppage. Very sporting of us, but not great for winning matches.
Jones' strategy isn't a pretty one but when it works it involves aggressive high energy pressing and if that's off the menu then a new style has to develop because right now we're playing 75 minutes like a team desperately trying to defend a lead, and then 10-15 minutes where we actually look dangerous. It's increasingly too little too late that. Every single one of our players would look better if we just held the ball a bit more and let players move around the pitch to create something, I really hope the conversation on the training ground from now on is about finding a man with the ball not hitting a space. Otherwise we're in trouble.
(Certainly other clubs enjoying some success, Blackpool for instance, are doing so with grizzled old pros as their manager)
Is it time for our owners/directors to seek out a coach with wide experience of developing players from youth up to first team EFL/Prem level to manage our club ? We need fresh ideas and we need them quickly, ideas not gained from the day to day slog of managing under pressure, ideas to do with modern playing and training ways and proper man/player management.
I haven't a clue who, but I am not 'in the know' around professional football. I hadn't heard of Davies, McKenna or Skubala until recently, but the shrewdies in charge at other clubs certainly had heard of them and did something about it
Jones can stay, the three clowns trying to run things can go.
Ffs, Leaburn has not played all season, you cannot blame him.
Wayne Rooney.
I'm slightly worried about Karoy and TC, I think they got their chance last season more because there was no-one else than because they were good and ready for it. In another set-up I think they'd have gone on loan to learn and get experience at a lower level....... and they'd have come back all the better for it, but that didn't happen and now they're 2 of our attacking force........ not only aren't they ready but they're hardly surrounded by good, confident players who can 'carry' them through a game. I have no doubt they're learning but given what else we are showing going forward I don't think we can 'afford' to have them playing so many minutes. It doesn't take much, even in this division, for underhit passes to put unnecessary pressure on and it can even lead to us conceding goals....... never mind that they are still learning the craft of coming away with the ball in 50/50 tussels, positional sense when we're in and out of possession..... etc, etc.
The team selection is baffling to be honest, constant switching of the defence which was the one part of the team that looked solid, whilst sticking with the likes of Anderson in midfield and Ahadme up front, dropping Docherty as captain, the disappearance of Small, Taylor not getting a look in etc.
It worries me that even the players don't think that we can dominate a game to beat the opposition. Scraping horrible wins is the tactics of a side trying to stay up, not one trying to go up.
It does have the look of some sort of internal strife going on.
Deep-level apathy is setting in, the kind that sees people drift away and crowds tumble (like many others here, I was glad I had other plans last night).
I can't get enthused about another change of manager and January makeover. It's hard to get enthused about anything.
One additional point: our academy is not delivering. Anderson struggling, TC inconsistent, Asiimwe out on loan and possibly going backwards, Zak seemingly not ready? (Don't even mention Henry). Just Miles to hope for. It's a poor return given that we just need decent L1 players at this point...in the past we've been producing Premiership players (even when being in L1 or Champ ourselves). Think Shelvey, Gomez, Konsa then add in Cousins, Solly, Fox, Phillips, Grant etc.
Who needs Netflix. I can watch this for the rest of my life.
I believe in him 🏆
Those words should be set in stone and Concrete Croydon:
That was my thoughts after the wins against Wigan, Orient and Shrewsbury.
A coin flip said another poster and when the opposition have their shooting boots on we lose as against Reading, Blackpool (plus headed OG!) and Rovers last night.