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England Cricket 2024
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The Lions have got James Coles, Farhan Ahmed , Jafar Chohan (part involvement because of BBL), Dan Mousley with them in South Africa next month.
Am surprised no Jack Carson but apparently he's decided to play Grade Cricket down under for the winter.0 -
Moeen started his test career as a batsman whom hardly bowled. As time went on he began to bowl more to become regarded as an all rounder by the time he retired which demonstrates that spinners often mature late. One DL Underwood, arguably the greatest English spinner, is an exception to that rule as he started his county career at 17 (nearly 18) and took 100 wickets in his first two seasons. He became a test cricketer in his early twenties but Norman Gifford was sometimes preferred at test level for reasons I didn't understand at the time and still don't.killerandflash said:But then I do have an issue with England picking spinners when they are young, then dumping them, rather than letting them develop their game first. Moeen was 27 when he made his Test debut.
Leaving aside the obvious Liam Dawson, who's at his peak well into his 30s, what happened with Dom Bess? Like Bashir, a Somerset rookie off spinner picked aged 20, and still only 27 now . And with a slightly better bowling average and better with the bat and in the field. I don't know if Bess is good enough, but I'm sure he's better now than when was 20.1 -
Bess played one match in the CC for Yorkshire in April and in tandem with Moriarty. He was then consigned to the 2nd XI until the final five games of the season came round so played just 6 matches in total, picking up 14 wickets. Moriarty played 8 matches and took 12 wickets. Again, the same problem. Too many spinners chasing a maximum of one spot because of when games are played and the wickets that are produced. Bess (Somerset) and Moriarty (Surrey), ironically, both left their previous counties because they wanted to get regular cricket but now find themselves competing for that one place at Yorkshire. It's been particularly difficult for Moriarty who will be 26 in February and has a total of 21 career matches to his name.killerandflash said:But then I do have an issue with England picking spinners when they are young, then dumping them, rather than letting them develop their game first. Moeen was 27 when he made his Test debut.
Leaving aside the obvious Liam Dawson, who's at his peak well into his 30s, what happened with Dom Bess? Like Bashir, a Somerset rookie off spinner picked aged 20, and still only 27 now . And with a slightly better bowling average and better with the bat and in the field. I don't know if Bess is good enough, but I'm sure he's better now than when was 20.
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MrOneLung said:
Called it on WednesdayMrOneLung said:We will roll them over for less than 250 and win this
Pakistan were on a losing run, their recent record in 2nd innings is weak, and are a shadow of former Pakistan teams with world class players that have been difficult to beat.
We beat them 3-0 last time and they are still struggling to find enough good sessions.
The English bowlers were fresh and great that Atkinson and Carse are determined to become regulars following the retirement of Anderson and Broad. Jack Leech was keen to make up for lost time since being injured and Woakes is enjoying being the senior bowler now. Young Bashir is enthusiastic and still learning his trade.
The pitch isn't the main reason when the mentality is weak. England have collapsed enough times over the years so it was quite predictable as you, me, Fensaddick and many cricket watchers could see was a strong possibility once the big partnerships started for England.
Still a record breaking achievement by England after two days in the field on the 1st two days.
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Pick Leach and you win.
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I do find the county spinner debate really quite interesting. Just feels like you have very few sides that would consider playing 2 out and out spinners in the championship because the pitches are never up to needing or being useful for 2 spinners. I guess you have Essex with Harmer and Critchley but that's a rare example.
I do wonder where the likes of Bashir will end up county wise because he needs to be playing regularly.1 -
With our mediocre and perpetually injured pace bowling attack, I had expected Kent to prepare spin friendly surfaces this summer, to suit Parky plus the various part time and all rounder spinning options (Leaning, plus the Denlys).0
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In the case of Essex, though, that second spinner is a batter that bowls and Harmer can hold a bat too. The issue with a Bashir/Leach scenario at Somerset is that they are both tail enders hence Vaughan, in opening the batting, becoming a real prospect. So Bashir has to be going to a county that is prepared to use him as their number one spinner in the knowledge that he will be batting at 11. I'm really struggle to think of a county that is prepared to give a rookie spinner that. It has to be a side that has at least one, if not two, genuine all rounders in their side. I was going to suggest that Hants might suit as Dawson isn't just a genuine all rounder but his left arm orthodox action would complement Bashir's off spin but Felix Organ has been doing well for them too.MarcusH26 said:I do find the county spinner debate really quite interesting. Just feels like you have very few sides that would consider playing 2 out and out spinners in the championship because the pitches are never up to needing or being useful for 2 spinners. I guess you have Essex with Harmer and Critchley but that's a rare example.
I do wonder where the likes of Bashir will end up county wise because he needs to be playing regularly.
So, we are back to Bashir learning his trade playing for England. It's the same conversation we had about Bashir, Hartley and Rehan Ahmed after the India series and none of them are any further forward. Bizarrely, we could well find that Bashir is picked for England in front of Leach to give him game time and experience but, come the Ashes, Leach will come back into the side if Bashir hasn't progressed to the extent that he can hold his own in Australia.2 -
Other than Somerset and Essex do any counties set up pitches to aid their spinners?0
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Kent certainly did back in the time of Underwood, which was a reason why Graham Dilley left...MrOneLung said:Other than Somerset and Essex do any counties set up pitches to aid their spinners?1 - Sponsored links:
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Addick Addict said:
In the case of Essex, though, that second spinner is a batter that bowls and Harmer can hold a bat too. The issue with a Bashir/Leach scenario at Somerset is that they are both tail enders hence Vaughan, in opening the batting, becoming a real prospect. So Bashir has to be going to a county that is prepared to use him as their number one spinner in the knowledge that he will be batting at 11. I'm really struggle to think of a county that is prepared to give a rookie spinner that. It has to be a side that has at least one, if not two, genuine all rounders in their side. I was going to suggest that Hants might suit as Dawson isn't just a genuine all rounder but his left arm orthodox action would complement Bashir's off spin but Felix Organ has been doing well for them too.MarcusH26 said:I do find the county spinner debate really quite interesting. Just feels like you have very few sides that would consider playing 2 out and out spinners in the championship because the pitches are never up to needing or being useful for 2 spinners. I guess you have Essex with Harmer and Critchley but that's a rare example.
I do wonder where the likes of Bashir will end up county wise because he needs to be playing regularly.
So, we are back to Bashir learning his trade playing for England. It's the same conversation we had about Bashir, Hartley and Rehan Ahmed after the India series and none of them are any further forward. Bizarrely, we could well find that Bashir is picked for England in front of Leach to give him game time and experience but, come the Ashes, Leach will come back into the side if Bashir hasn't progressed to the extent that he can hold his own in Australia.
It's genuinely an issue I can't really figure out an answer for with Bashir - the rest of the up and coming spinners can all bat - Carson bats 8 most of the time for Sussex and has multiple 50s , Rehan Ahmed isn't a tailender, James Coles is more of a Dawson/Critchley type. I don't know how many county sides would want to have to accommodate a genuine tailender anymore.
Leach I fully expect if he stays fit to be the main spinner in Australia. Even if someone has a breakthrough beforehand I think they'll favour Leach.2 -
I think Bashir will be the spinner is Aus and that’s why he’s been backed so heavily. Spinners like Leach just don’t do well in Aus and Bashir’s height is a point of difference at leastMarcusH26 said:Addick Addict said:
In the case of Essex, though, that second spinner is a batter that bowls and Harmer can hold a bat too. The issue with a Bashir/Leach scenario at Somerset is that they are both tail enders hence Vaughan, in opening the batting, becoming a real prospect. So Bashir has to be going to a county that is prepared to use him as their number one spinner in the knowledge that he will be batting at 11. I'm really struggle to think of a county that is prepared to give a rookie spinner that. It has to be a side that has at least one, if not two, genuine all rounders in their side. I was going to suggest that Hants might suit as Dawson isn't just a genuine all rounder but his left arm orthodox action would complement Bashir's off spin but Felix Organ has been doing well for them too.MarcusH26 said:I do find the county spinner debate really quite interesting. Just feels like you have very few sides that would consider playing 2 out and out spinners in the championship because the pitches are never up to needing or being useful for 2 spinners. I guess you have Essex with Harmer and Critchley but that's a rare example.
I do wonder where the likes of Bashir will end up county wise because he needs to be playing regularly.
So, we are back to Bashir learning his trade playing for England. It's the same conversation we had about Bashir, Hartley and Rehan Ahmed after the India series and none of them are any further forward. Bizarrely, we could well find that Bashir is picked for England in front of Leach to give him game time and experience but, come the Ashes, Leach will come back into the side if Bashir hasn't progressed to the extent that he can hold his own in Australia.
It's genuinely an issue I can't really figure out an answer for with Bashir - the rest of the up and coming spinners can all bat - Carson bats 8 most of the time for Sussex and has multiple 50s , Rehan Ahmed isn't a tailender, James Coles is more of a Dawson/Critchley type. I don't know how many county sides would want to have to accommodate a genuine tailender anymore.
Leach I fully expect if he stays fit to be the main spinner in Australia. Even if someone has a breakthrough beforehand I think they'll favour Leach.0 -
Why would they even try to do so, given that up to two thirds of games are played in seam friendly conditions and without the bounce that hard, dry wickets might naturally produce on the 4th day of a match? Any artificially doctored wicket that might result in a two-day game could lead to a fine/points deduction and that wouldn't help batters to progress either. Therein lies the problem.MrOneLung said:Other than Somerset and Essex do any counties set up pitches to aid their spinners?
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I’d put my hand up to bat at 3 on these decks and I’m shit 🤣Addick Addict said:
Who is going to put their hand up to bat at 3?golfaddick said:Stokes should play instead of Pope. No need to drop a bowler then.3 -
Yes but they won't pick you because you were conspicuous by your absence when they were looking for an emergency opener the other day. As were, to be fair to you, the whole of the England side bar Pope himself. I wouldn't imagine that the record makers, Root and Brook, will want to move to 3 and it certainly won't be Smith after he's kept for two days but they might be forced to shift up one place each. That leaves Stokes himself but, to be fair to him, I think he would rather sit it out again than take Pope's place if he can't bowl. Stokes not playing as a batter only would also avoid that issue of whether to go in with just two spinners or just two seamers. Leaving Bashir out, as might be an option given that Root could fill in with a dozen or so overs a day of off spin, would be counter productive to Bashir's development too but he really didn't show enough to warrant being our only frontline spinner so we have to have five bowlers including him and Leach if we are looking to play the best and most balanced side right now in these conditions.Pelling1993 said:
I’d put my hand up to bat at 3 on these decks and I’m shit 🤣Addick Addict said:
Who is going to put their hand up to bat at 3?golfaddick said:Stokes should play instead of Pope. No need to drop a bowler then.
We are used to England announcing their side early but, in this particular instance, with fitness tests galore, we might not find out for certain until it is time for the toss.0 -
Babar is going to be dropped for the second test apparently, his form has fallen off a cliff.0
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Cricinfo reporting the same pitch to be used and that Stokes bowled at full pace this morning0
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Babar, Shaheen and Naseem Shah all left out of the squad0 -
Rumour has it that Pakistan have a selection committee that picks the selectors prior to each Test - in just over three years they have had no less than 26 different selectors!6
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Brave call to leave their 2 most famous players out of BOTH of the next 2 Tests.0
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It looks, in hindsight, that a squad was announced for the first Test only was to see if Babar could find some form. I joked about how Pakistan pick their team in terms of the selection process but it does beg the question as to how much influence their head coach, Jason Gillespie, has? Whoever is picking the team, the fact is that Babar hasn't hit a ton in almost two years and in his 17 innings in 9 Tests since then has had a top score of 41 and averaged barely 20 in that time.killerandflash said:Brave call to leave their 2 most famous players out of BOTH of the next 2 Tests.0 -
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Feels harsh on Atkinson but I guess he has played a lot of cricket so a rest isn’t the worst thing in the world. Woakes also played well but I wanted to see Potts play so less fussed there!0
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No Atkinson or Woakes in the side.
If Stokes can't bowl then we only have 2 seam bowlers.
Looks a bit risky to me .1 -
no way you pick this team if he can’t bowl. Was bowling full pelt in the nets yesterday so seems like he’s fitblackpool72 said:No Atkinson or Woakes in the side.
If Stokes can't bowl then we only have 2 seam bowlers.
Looks a bit risky to me .0 -
So Stokes and Potts for Woakes and Atkinson which rather goes against Nasser's assertion that Stokes would only play as a bowler at the fourth seamer and not a third one.0
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Stokes can break down at anytime, no matter how well he's looked in the nets.
Still looks a bit risky to me.2 -
What have Atkinson and Woakes done right to be given the opportunity to put their feet up for five days? They must be delighted.0
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I thought they might rest one of them but I'm a little surprised they are resting both.Chizz said:What have Atkinson and Woakes done right to be given the opportunity to put their feet up for five days? They must be delighted.0 -
Bowled the whole test summer and then the most seam overs in the last test, if you're going to rest any of the bowlers it's those twoChizz said:What have Atkinson and Woakes done right to be given the opportunity to put their feet up for five days? They must be delighted.0
