Just popped on Google to look at the score and it says our win % is only 42% and 57% the draw! Seems a bit scuffed I did try to refresh it to see if it was just out of date but it's still saying it. Bizarre.
Just popped on Google to look at the score and it says our win % is only 42% and 57% the draw! Seems a bit scuffed I did try to refresh it to see if it was just out of date but it's still saying it. Bizarre.
You can't even back England at 1.01 which is rather more accurate!
Indeed. The figures below represent the fact that there is no substitute for experience, something that, ironically, Leach himself is preventing Bashir from gaining at Somerset. The lad has yet to reach 50 wickets in any form of red ball cricket and has to move counties if he is to learn how to adapt on wickets that aren't helpful, albeit that when we play our county matches isn't helping any of our young spinners to mature:
What a great win that was! Many records broken and a display full of confidence To beat a team, any team, that posts a 1st score of 556 is remarkable but to win by an Innings and 47 runs is beyond belief. Difficult to pick a man of the match because of all the different contributions, but Brooks 317 is stand out. Next match is Tuesday in the same stadium, Pakistan I guess will make many changes, will England bring in Stokes? Now Brook is taking 4 of the sponsors mom awards with Leach getting the bowlers mom. Well done England!
An article in the guardian mentions Ollie Stone getting married so he might not be available for the next test. Then it talks about Andre Nel, Who got married during a Test and was then: “The only man on earth who has had Brian Lara twice on his honeymoon.”. I’m not sure that reads the way the author meant it.
To win by an innings after conceded 556 in 1st innings was a record breaking achievement and even though this isn't a quality Pakistan team like bygone years, this England team were full of bounce back ability (cheers Dowie) after the first two hot days on this benign strip.
With this new era after Broad and Anderson, so far the likes of Atkinson and Carse etc have stepped up to the plate.
'epic' all round England performance, the next test is also in Multan on an entirely different type of wicket ? .. whatever, I expect there to be even fewer Pakistan supporters in the stadium next week .. Stokes ? .. no place for him at the moment, unchanged England, Pakistan ? .. I know little about their 1st class cricket, are there many/any who were not selected for this one who could come into and strengthen the side, especially the bowling ?
Pope might have had a poor game as a player, but to win that game was a real achievement for him as a captain, especially after the shambles at The Oval
I'd drop Bashir and play Ahmed in the next game. Agree AA that the former has to go elsewhere to progress especially with Archie Vaughan there now.
Re Bashir ..we all know he is very raw ..so raw really that it's very difficult to know if he could ever be the finished article. He's not a great fielder and he can't bat.I think he's been given a very easy ride
I always thought that Dom Bess was the sort of player that the current regime would like
I really like Bashir, he’s quite unassuming and just sort of plugs away at it. Leach is great to have in the subcontinent but realistically you need to get test experience into young spinners and Bashir did his job over the summer perfectly well
Bashir is 20, about to turn 21. He’s extremely young and will be learning a lot from these experiences which will set him up handsomely into his mid and late 20s.
I do not think dropping him now after a single below par Test (where all have said it’s a batter’s wicket) is the right move.
I would only drop Bashir if we are forced to go in with one spinner for the reasons I spoke above because of the potential of a non bowling Stokes in the side on a wicket such as this. I haven't seen any other suggestions as to how we would balance that side? That said, the reason I would want to play Bashir is to give him more experience because he isn't getting that or progressing at Somerset - his return last season was a jaw dropping 4-377. Compare that to Leach with 45 wickets at 22.77 and even 18 year old Archie Vaughan (15 wickets at 20.13).
The point is that Bashir is trying to learn how to bowl on the highest stage of all. That is England's issue with the young spinners that they have tried to bring in e.g. Hartley (5-409 last season) and Rehan Ahmed (13-789). The previous CEO at the ECB even begged Australia to give them some experience in State Cricket. The Aussies, of course, laughed at that request. Our spinners should be learning that in the CC but when most of the matches are played here in April, May and September they won't do that. Even less so, if they aren't first choice at their county. Some counties don't even bother playing a spinner at all in games because the wickets aren't conducive to spin.
As Nasser says, Bashir is bowling too flat and negative a line for an off spinner (i.e. on middle/leg) meaning that he becomes too defensive and is easy to pick off on wickets that aren't turning. Bashir has to be braver, bowl outside off and throw some up there too but he is too worried about being hit. It isn't about economy rates on a 600 plus track. It's about taking wickets. The confidence to do so comes with experience but Test cricket isn't the place to be gaining that. Bashir took 17 wickets there at 33.35 on wickets that were turning square in India but, since then, his record against three of the poorest Test playing nations is 16 wickets at 43.66 and an economy rate of 3.75. How's he going to cope against the Aussies in a years time?
To demonstrate the difference between here and Australia, so far as gaining experience is concerned, in the current round of three Sheffield State matches we've had: Nathan Lyon, Todd Murphy, Matthew Kuhnemann, Mitchell Swepson, and Cooper Connolly playing - that's five Australian international spinners bowling at, amongst others, Travis Head, Alex Carey, Marnus Labuschagne, Usman Khawaja, Matt Renshaw, Marcus Harris, Cameron Bancroft, Mitchell Marsh, Moises Henriques, Peter Handscombe and Josh Inglis.
Hopefully, Bashir will play in the next Test and will have learnt from this match. But this will be a long process of repetition that isn't learnt in one series. It's learnt by bowling year in, year out, thousands of balls. If there is one person to demonstrate that then it would be one of our greatest spinners of all time, Graeme Swann. He made his England debut in an ODI at the age of 20 but didn't play another game at international level for another eight years. That is how long it took him to learn the ropes in county cricket. That's not Bashir's fault. It's the fault of the current system in England and the void of 25 year old plus spinners that it has created.
But then I do have an issue with England picking spinners when they are young, then dumping them, rather than letting them develop their game first. Moeen was 27 when he made his Test debut.
Leaving aside the obvious Liam Dawson, who's at his peak well into his 30s, what happened with Dom Bess? Like Bashir, a Somerset rookie off spinner picked aged 20, and still only 27 now . And with a slightly better bowling average and better with the bat and in the field. I don't know if Bess is good enough, but I'm sure he's better now than when was 20.
But then I do have an issue with England picking spinners when they are young, then dumping them, rather than letting them develop their game first. Moeen was 27 when he made his Test debut.
Leaving aside the obvious Liam Dawson, who's at his peak well into his 30s, what happened with Dom Bess? Like Bashir, a Somerset rookie off spinner picked aged 20, and still only 27 now . And with a slightly better bowling average and better with the bat and in the field. I don't know if Bess is good enough, but I'm sure he's better now than when was 20.
It's accepted fact that spinner develop later. I honestly don't get why we write off spinners and don't go back to them as they mature in their late 20s. Look at Swann for instance. Dawson over the last 2/3 years could have been excellent with bat and ball. Doesn't mean we couldn't have also developed some of these younger players as part of the squad or on sub continent tours.
Comments
191-7
214-8 and 53 runs behind. The lady is clearing her throat!
Leach: 46.5-6-190-7
Bashir: 38.0-3-156-1
To beat a team, any team, that posts a 1st score of 556 is remarkable but to win by an Innings and 47 runs is beyond belief.
Difficult to pick a man of the match because of all the different contributions, but Brooks 317 is stand out.
Next match is Tuesday in the same stadium, Pakistan I guess will make many changes, will England bring in Stokes?
Now Brook is taking 4 of the sponsors mom awards with Leach getting the bowlers mom.
Well done England!
With this new era after Broad and Anderson, so far the likes of Atkinson and Carse etc have stepped up to the plate.
Re Bashir ..we all know he is very raw ..so raw really that it's very difficult to know if he could ever be the finished article. He's not a great fielder and he can't bat.I think he's been given a very easy ride
I always thought that Dom Bess was the sort of player that the current regime would like
The point is that Bashir is trying to learn how to bowl on the highest stage of all. That is England's issue with the young spinners that they have tried to bring in e.g. Hartley (5-409 last season) and Rehan Ahmed (13-789). The previous CEO at the ECB even begged Australia to give them some experience in State Cricket. The Aussies, of course, laughed at that request. Our spinners should be learning that in the CC but when most of the matches are played here in April, May and September they won't do that. Even less so, if they aren't first choice at their county. Some counties don't even bother playing a spinner at all in games because the wickets aren't conducive to spin.
As Nasser says, Bashir is bowling too flat and negative a line for an off spinner (i.e. on middle/leg) meaning that he becomes too defensive and is easy to pick off on wickets that aren't turning. Bashir has to be braver, bowl outside off and throw some up there too but he is too worried about being hit. It isn't about economy rates on a 600 plus track. It's about taking wickets. The confidence to do so comes with experience but Test cricket isn't the place to be gaining that. Bashir took 17 wickets there at 33.35 on wickets that were turning square in India but, since then, his record against three of the poorest Test playing nations is 16 wickets at 43.66 and an economy rate of 3.75. How's he going to cope against the Aussies in a years time?
To demonstrate the difference between here and Australia, so far as gaining experience is concerned, in the current round of three Sheffield State matches we've had: Nathan Lyon, Todd Murphy, Matthew Kuhnemann, Mitchell Swepson, and Cooper Connolly playing - that's five Australian international spinners bowling at, amongst others, Travis Head, Alex Carey, Marnus Labuschagne, Usman Khawaja, Matt Renshaw, Marcus Harris, Cameron Bancroft, Mitchell Marsh, Moises Henriques, Peter Handscombe and Josh Inglis.
Hopefully, Bashir will play in the next Test and will have learnt from this match. But this will be a long process of repetition that isn't learnt in one series. It's learnt by bowling year in, year out, thousands of balls. If there is one person to demonstrate that then it would be one of our greatest spinners of all time, Graeme Swann. He made his England debut in an ODI at the age of 20 but didn't play another game at international level for another eight years. That is how long it took him to learn the ropes in county cricket. That's not Bashir's fault. It's the fault of the current system in England and the void of 25 year old plus spinners that it has created.
Leaving aside the obvious Liam Dawson, who's at his peak well into his 30s, what happened with Dom Bess? Like Bashir, a Somerset rookie off spinner picked aged 20, and still only 27 now . And with a slightly better bowling average and better with the bat and in the field. I don't know if Bess is good enough, but I'm sure he's better now than when was 20.