Stats like mistakes made leading to goals etc can be helpful but not necessarily telling the whole story - if the midfield give the ball away easily or it keeps coming back at the defence repeatedly then by law of averages anyone will end up making more errors.
I think this is an interesting proposition, but if it were to be accurate and work, the teams who gave up possession the most, or teams who were under the pressure the most, would have CBs with the most errors. But Hector is still #1 in the league. And that includes all of the worst teams who have bigger problems than us.
I would imagine (based purely on my own impressions, not stats as I don't have those to hand) we actually are fairly high on the list of both - that's why Dobson is so important and also why he's struggling to carry that load all alone.
But you are right that it doesn't tell the whole story. In fairness I would also think that those errors are "weighted" quite heavily to earlier in the season and he's considerably more reliable now than prior.
Stats like mistakes made leading to goals etc can be helpful but not necessarily telling the whole story - if the midfield give the ball away easily or it keeps coming back at the defence repeatedly then by law of averages anyone will end up making more errors.
I think this is an interesting proposition, but if it were to be accurate and work, the teams who gave up possession the most, or teams who were under the pressure the most, would have CBs with the most errors. But Hector is still #1 in the league. And that includes all of the worst teams who have bigger problems than us.
I would imagine (based purely on my own impressions, not stats as I don't have those to hand) we actually are fairly high on the list of both - that's why Dobson is so important and also why he's struggling to carry that load all alone.
But you are right that it doesn't tell the whole story. In fairness I would also think that those errors are "weighted" quite heavily to earlier in the season and he's considerably more reliable now than prior.
We're 6th in the league for average possession which suggests we keep the ball quite well. I don't have stats for shots against per match, unfortunately, but we're 12th for xG conceded which suggests average.
Actually, thinking about it, i believe someone shared some territory graphs on here recently that suggested we aren't under that much pressure and on average control territory quite well... But I can't remember where it was shared.
I agree there has been a slight improvement recently, but I think Hector has more than used up all the possible errors he should have in a season already. If he continues the rest of the season without any more, I can't complain. But is that likely? He almost had another one away to Carlisle.
I have no idea who was at fault Saturday but every time Cambridge crossed to our back post they were unmarked. It was quite an achievement on their behalf not to have made more of it. It was every corner, every free kick and every cross in the first half and most in the second. Our defensive unit as a whole is not up to it.
Stats like mistakes made leading to goals etc can be helpful but not necessarily telling the whole story - if the midfield give the ball away easily or it keeps coming back at the defence repeatedly then by law of averages anyone will end up making more errors.
I think this is an interesting proposition, but if it were to be accurate and work, the teams who gave up possession the most, or teams who were under the pressure the most, would have CBs with the most errors. But Hector is still #1 in the league. And that includes all of the worst teams who have bigger problems than us.
Stats are just stats - you have to take them with a pinch of salt. I’d be very surprised if all of those players with zeroes against their names haven’t made mistakes that have led to a goal, even if it wasn’t directly to a goal. Every match of the day you see centre backs getting caught on the ball. There was one (at least) on Saturday’s show that almost led to a goal - keeper just saved the shot with his outstretched foot. Hector can be a very good centre back for us, despite his shaky start.
Stats like mistakes made leading to goals etc can be helpful but not necessarily telling the whole story - if the midfield give the ball away easily or it keeps coming back at the defence repeatedly then by law of averages anyone will end up making more errors.
I think this is an interesting proposition, but if it were to be accurate and work, the teams who gave up possession the most, or teams who were under the pressure the most, would have CBs with the most errors. But Hector is still #1 in the league. And that includes all of the worst teams who have bigger problems than us.
Stats are just stats - you have to take them with a pinch of salt. I’d be very surprised if all of those players with zeroes against their names haven’t made mistakes that have led to a goal, even if it wasn’t directly to a goal. Every match of the day you see centre backs getting caught on the ball. There was one (at least) on Saturday’s show that almost led to a goal - keeper just saved the shot with his outstretched foot. Hector can be a very good centre back for us, despite his shaky start.
I remember you made this argument before but to defend Ryan Innis... I don't think it's worth going over old ground. If you have a view that errors are regular and normal and the stats disprove that, it's cut and dry. When you watch highlights you will see one or two players making a mistake. Were the same players regularly making mistakes (which is the problem I'm trying to point out), you would be seeing nearer 10-40 mistakes per MOTD program.
Last post from me on this. I think part of the beauty of CL is the spectrum of opinion and it's s clear we hold CBs to a different standard.
Not really. I think Hector *is* high standard, now that he’s cutting out the mistakes. MotM two games running on the Players Marks thread backs that up.
And we clearly missed Innis’s aerial dominance earlier in the season. Totally different sort of player than Hector though.
If Hector starts making those mistakes again then I’ll reconsider. Perhaps you could reconsider if he keeps the mistakes at bay. 👍
Games at this level are, more often than not, regularly decided by defensive errors and/or mistakes, so teams that go up are the ones that can keep those down to a relative minimum. It's less about having someone to carve out on the regular (or even regularly score, like May does for us) and more about reducing mistakes to the absolute minimum.
Michael Hector is a defender that I would currently consider, based purely upon his Charlton performances, prone to making mistakes. Maybe he goes a couple of games without making a serious one that gets punished, but they do happen more often than not. He's absolutely got it in his locker to lose you points, as he is now, today - not as he was, as he is. Be it motivation, concentration, fitness - whatever it is, he will probably lose you more points than he gains you. If I was MA and had another CB option with 50-100+ starts in L1+ football, I'd pick them over him every time. I think it is delusional to believe that he is still the "quality" defender people think he was.
People make arguments for him being better for the last couple games, but I've seen him be at the root of everything bad we have done this season defensively so many times this season and last. He is a big, big reason why we are where we are right now - he doesn't show leadership, nor put his body on the line or play like it matters. He's another journeyman collecting a salary. If we had a CB equivalent of Alfie May, we'd be in the playoffs positions.
Games at this level are, more often than not, regularly decided by defensive errors and/or mistakes, so teams that go up are the ones that can keep those down to a relative minimum. It's less about having someone to carve out on the regular (or even regularly score, like May does for us) and more about reducing mistakes to the absolute minimum.
Michael Hector is a defender that I would currently consider, based purely upon his Charlton performances, prone to making mistakes. Maybe he goes a couple of games without making a serious one that gets punished, but they do happen more often than not. He's absolutely got it in his locker to lose you points, as he is now, today - not as he was, as he is. Be it motivation, concentration, fitness - whatever it is, he will probably lose you more points than he gains you. If I was MA and had another CB option with 50-100+ starts in L1+ football, I'd pick them over him every time. I think it is delusional to believe that he is still the "quality" defender people think he was.
People make arguments for him being better for the last couple games, but I've seen him be at the root of everything bad we have done this season defensively so many times this season and last. He is a big, big reason why we are where we are right now - he doesn't show leadership, nor put his body on the line or play like it matters. He's another journeyman collecting a salary. If we had a CB equivalent of Alfie May, we'd be in the playoffs positions.
Great, to read a post from someone that understands football.
Games at this level are, more often than not, regularly decided by defensive errors and/or mistakes, so teams that go up are the ones that can keep those down to a relative minimum. It's less about having someone to carve out on the regular (or even regularly score, like May does for us) and more about reducing mistakes to the absolute minimum.
Michael Hector is a defender that I would currently consider, based purely upon his Charlton performances, prone to making mistakes. Maybe he goes a couple of games without making a serious one that gets punished, but they do happen more often than not. He's absolutely got it in his locker to lose you points, as he is now, today - not as he was, as he is. Be it motivation, concentration, fitness - whatever it is, he will probably lose you more points than he gains you. If I was MA and had another CB option with 50-100+ starts in L1+ football, I'd pick them over him every time. I think it is delusional to believe that he is still the "quality" defender people think he was.
People make arguments for him being better for the last couple games, but I've seen him be at the root of everything bad we have done this season defensively so many times this season and last. He is a big, big reason why we are where we are right now - he doesn't show leadership, nor put his body on the line or play like it matters. He's another journeyman collecting a salary. If we had a CB equivalent of Alfie May, we'd be in the playoffs positions.
Great, to read a post from someone that understands football.
yep agreed - he's another naby sarr for me - can do something that looks really classy every now and again but then fucks the basics up and not prepared to put his body on the line - you accept a winger blowing hot and cold but a centre half, like a goalkeeper needs to be solid and dependable - i'd be showing hector the door asap
Games at this level are, more often than not, regularly decided by defensive errors and/or mistakes, so teams that go up are the ones that can keep those down to a relative minimum. It's less about having someone to carve out on the regular (or even regularly score, like May does for us) and more about reducing mistakes to the absolute minimum.
Michael Hector is a defender that I would currently consider, based purely upon his Charlton performances, prone to making mistakes. Maybe he goes a couple of games without making a serious one that gets punished, but they do happen more often than not. He's absolutely got it in his locker to lose you points, as he is now, today - not as he was, as he is. Be it motivation, concentration, fitness - whatever it is, he will probably lose you more points than he gains you. If I was MA and had another CB option with 50-100+ starts in L1+ football, I'd pick them over him every time. I think it is delusional to believe that he is still the "quality" defender people think he was.
People make arguments for him being better for the last couple games, but I've seen him be at the root of everything bad we have done this season defensively so many times this season and last. He is a big, big reason why we are where we are right now - he doesn't show leadership, nor put his body on the line or play like it matters. He's another journeyman collecting a salary. If we had a CB equivalent of Alfie May, we'd be in the playoffs positions.
Great, to read a post from someone that understands football.
Appreciated, but I wouldn't go quite that far! Just seen (like, unfortunately, so many of us on here in recent years) a LOT of League 1 football and can see some patterns emerging. On average, the teams in the top 6 have conceded around 10 goals less than us and that's our single biggest issue.
Despite not being at the Cambridge game personally to assess any performance uplift, I just feel like as soon as you have a defender like Hector that almost develops the ability to make mistakes, it's not going to be a recipe for success. MA has no other realistic option than to play him (and for that, he has my sympathy), but I sit next to my ST friends every week and we joke about what Hector is going to do this week. He's just not consistent enough any more and this is only amplified by the fact that, for most of the season, he's had a young and inexperienced keeper behind him and LB/RBs that are all relatively disorganised when defending.
Ultimately, our back 5 incl. GK needs to be a lot better. I think a Hector replacement would level up the others - I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen Hector try to divert blame with arm waving after conceding goals that he should have dealt with better. It's not good for the younger players and he's just never been the kind of player that has ever impressed me. Our CBs have been that way for a while and, unless January gets us a replacement, it'll likely be another 7-10th finish.
Games at this level are, more often than not, regularly decided by defensive errors and/or mistakes, so teams that go up are the ones that can keep those down to a relative minimum. It's less about having someone to carve out on the regular (or even regularly score, like May does for us) and more about reducing mistakes to the absolute minimum.
Michael Hector is a defender that I would currently consider, based purely upon his Charlton performances, prone to making mistakes. Maybe he goes a couple of games without making a serious one that gets punished, but they do happen more often than not. He's absolutely got it in his locker to lose you points, as he is now, today - not as he was, as he is. Be it motivation, concentration, fitness - whatever it is, he will probably lose you more points than he gains you. If I was MA and had another CB option with 50-100+ starts in L1+ football, I'd pick them over him every time. I think it is delusional to believe that he is still the "quality" defender people think he was.
People make arguments for him being better for the last couple games, but I've seen him be at the root of everything bad we have done this season defensively so many times this season and last. He is a big, big reason why we are where we are right now - he doesn't show leadership, nor put his body on the line or play like it matters. He's another journeyman collecting a salary. If we had a CB equivalent of Alfie May, we'd be in the playoffs positions.
Great, to read a post from someone that understands football.
yep agreed - he's another naby sarr for me - can do something that looks really classy every now and again but then fucks the basics up and not prepared to put his body on the line - you accept a winger blowing hot and cold but a centre half, like a goalkeeper needs to be solid and dependable - i'd be showing hector the door asap
Naby used to do plenty of blocks. A player that absolutely gave everything for us when he played. He made mistakes but he gave his all.
Hector is still an enigma. He looks like a man so indignant at being forced to play at such a low level that he can't be bothered to make an effort.
Not commanding in the air, not aggressive, not reliable, very slow, no leadership and no threat from our set pieces. Tends to play well against weaker opposition (Cambridge. Reading) but shirks a real battle (Bolton).
Some superb distribution, sublime tackles and calm in a crisis.
Would be ideal in a back three with a Pearce/Innis type or maybe better as a defensive midfielder protecting a young back four after Dobbo leaves in January.
Ok I’ve been battered into submission here (but no need for the little dig about not understanding football @CoveredEnd, we should be able to discuss players merits without them. I’m entitled to have an opinion, even if I know much less about football than you do.)
Let’s see how Hector does between now and the end of the season. Perhaps if they buy a more solid type, and Jones stays fit, we won’t see much more of him, who knows.
Games at this level are, more often than not, regularly decided by defensive errors and/or mistakes, so teams that go up are the ones that can keep those down to a relative minimum. It's less about having someone to carve out on the regular (or even regularly score, like May does for us) and more about reducing mistakes to the absolute minimum.
Michael Hector is a defender that I would currently consider, based purely upon his Charlton performances, prone to making mistakes. Maybe he goes a couple of games without making a serious one that gets punished, but they do happen more often than not. He's absolutely got it in his locker to lose you points, as he is now, today - not as he was, as he is. Be it motivation, concentration, fitness - whatever it is, he will probably lose you more points than he gains you. If I was MA and had another CB option with 50-100+ starts in L1+ football, I'd pick them over him every time. I think it is delusional to believe that he is still the "quality" defender people think he was.
People make arguments for him being better for the last couple games, but I've seen him be at the root of everything bad we have done this season defensively so many times this season and last. He is a big, big reason why we are where we are right now - he doesn't show leadership, nor put his body on the line or play like it matters. He's another journeyman collecting a salary. If we had a CB equivalent of Alfie May, we'd be in the playoffs positions.
"we joke about what Hector is going to do this week" yes, the football understanders get it into their head that a player is shit and is going to screw up so they just assume it will happen over and over again and deny the evidence of their eyes because they know what sort of player they're looking at, of the two types of player (proper Charlton and Error Prone) this player is Error Prone and so it doesn't matter if they play well for months at a time, the received wisdom is that they've always got a mistake in them! Hector could play a perfect December and January and he'd still be defined by our fans through his mistakes.
Never mind that he prevents countless goals by his for this level brilliant tackling, interceptions, proactivity and blocking. Never mind that he's basically our playmaker at the moment, best passer at the club and one of the best touches too. Never mind that he's surrounded by fullbacks and midfielders who are made of papier mache and let opposition players waltz past them like they're not there. Nah, he missed that one ball against Port Vale so he's shit. Fucking hell, at least it wasn't against Millwall
Okay, I've found the four games where he's screwed up and we've lost points. Port Vale and Oxford were at the start of the season when he was barely fit. Blackpool was a bit unlucky as he got played a hospital pass. I don't know why he had a stinker at Lincoln but he did, it happens. I'm not saying he's perfect - ideally there are 0 games where a CB is exposed - but I feel those four games are far more prominent in people's minds than his really good ones, which are much more frequent, especially recently
Stats can be very misleading with dramatic headlines to blow them out of proportion.
When I first read Hector had made double the amount of errors leading to goals as the next man I thought we were dealing with numbers like 5 errors and the next man on 2.
3 errors compared to 1 whilst technically correct as double the next man is also a very misleading headline to suit a narrative the numbers are too small for headlines like that and it’s something that irritates me a lot in life in general when this kind of headline is created.
Hector has badly underperformed this season but to this credit was solid on Saturday long may that continue.
Games at this level are, more often than not, regularly decided by defensive errors and/or mistakes, so teams that go up are the ones that can keep those down to a relative minimum. It's less about having someone to carve out on the regular (or even regularly score, like May does for us) and more about reducing mistakes to the absolute minimum.
Michael Hector is a defender that I would currently consider, based purely upon his Charlton performances, prone to making mistakes. Maybe he goes a couple of games without making a serious one that gets punished, but they do happen more often than not. He's absolutely got it in his locker to lose you points, as he is now, today - not as he was, as he is. Be it motivation, concentration, fitness - whatever it is, he will probably lose you more points than he gains you. If I was MA and had another CB option with 50-100+ starts in L1+ football, I'd pick them over him every time. I think it is delusional to believe that he is still the "quality" defender people think he was.
People make arguments for him being better for the last couple games, but I've seen him be at the root of everything bad we have done this season defensively so many times this season and last. He is a big, big reason why we are where we are right now - he doesn't show leadership, nor put his body on the line or play like it matters. He's another journeyman collecting a salary. If we had a CB equivalent of Alfie May, we'd be in the playoffs positions.
Great, to read a post from someone that understands football.
Appreciated, but I wouldn't go quite that far! Just seen (like, unfortunately, so many of us on here in recent years) a LOT of League 1 football and can see some patterns emerging. On average, the teams in the top 6 have conceded around 10 goals less than us and that's our single biggest issue.
Despite not being at the Cambridge game personally to assess any performance uplift, I just feel like as soon as you have a defender like Hector that almost develops the ability to make mistakes, it's not going to be a recipe for success. MA has no other realistic option than to play him (and for that, he has my sympathy), but I sit next to my ST friends every week and we joke about what Hector is going to do this week. He's just not consistent enough any more and this is only amplified by the fact that, for most of the season, he's had a young and inexperienced keeper behind him and LB/RBs that are all relatively disorganised when defending.
Ultimately, our back 5 incl. GK needs to be a lot better. I think a Hector replacement would level up the others - I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen Hector try to divert blame with arm waving after conceding goals that he should have dealt with better. It's not good for the younger players and he's just never been the kind of player that has ever impressed me. Our CBs have been that way for a while and, unless January gets us a replacement, it'll likely be another 7-10th finish.
I hope Andy Scott is reading this. I did tell him and he wasn't very receptive. Not surprising really when he signed most of them.
Agreed. Experienced player and seems a good character off the pitch too which is important for the dressing room. Ideally we end up with him as 3rd/4th choice but I’d be happy with keeping him
A massive no thank you from me, has performed against poor teams only and is the kind of player we have signed in recent history that has blocked us signing other players.
There are better options, would only take him on low wages and as a bench option, we won't go up with him as a main centre back
Calm, efficient, more than capable at this level without imo being a commanding presence. Given his age and experience I would have hoped for demonstrative command, leadership and example, but he is what he is. We'll just have to get that from elsewhere.
Can’t help being reminded of Ben Watson when I read his quote below. Understandable from his point of view but we want a squad desperate for promotion. I could be wrong but this reads like a player who’d rather stay in L1 if it means he’s local than take a Championship offer and move further away.
I wouldn’t be any rush to offer him a new deal, especially not if his wage suggests he’s a regular starter.
“I am enjoying my football here and I’d love to stay – my family are very local,” said Hector. “It is the right place for me and I’m helping the younger boys as well, which is a key role for me.
Comments
But you are right that it doesn't tell the whole story. In fairness I would also think that those errors are "weighted" quite heavily to earlier in the season and he's considerably more reliable now than prior.
Actually, thinking about it, i believe someone shared some territory graphs on here recently that suggested we aren't under that much pressure and on average control territory quite well... But I can't remember where it was shared.
I agree there has been a slight improvement recently, but I think Hector has more than used up all the possible errors he should have in a season already. If he continues the rest of the season without any more, I can't complain. But is that likely? He almost had another one away to Carlisle.
Last post from me on this. I think part of the beauty of CL is the spectrum of opinion and it's s clear we hold CBs to a different standard.
Michael Hector is a defender that I would currently consider, based purely upon his Charlton performances, prone to making mistakes. Maybe he goes a couple of games without making a serious one that gets punished, but they do happen more often than not. He's absolutely got it in his locker to lose you points, as he is now, today - not as he was, as he is. Be it motivation, concentration, fitness - whatever it is, he will probably lose you more points than he gains you. If I was MA and had another CB option with 50-100+ starts in L1+ football, I'd pick them over him every time. I think it is delusional to believe that he is still the "quality" defender people think he was.
People make arguments for him being better for the last couple games, but I've seen him be at the root of everything bad we have done this season defensively so many times this season and last. He is a big, big reason why we are where we are right now - he doesn't show leadership, nor put his body on the line or play like it matters. He's another journeyman collecting a salary. If we had a CB equivalent of Alfie May, we'd be in the playoffs positions.
Despite not being at the Cambridge game personally to assess any performance uplift, I just feel like as soon as you have a defender like Hector that almost develops the ability to make mistakes, it's not going to be a recipe for success. MA has no other realistic option than to play him (and for that, he has my sympathy), but I sit next to my ST friends every week and we joke about what Hector is going to do this week. He's just not consistent enough any more and this is only amplified by the fact that, for most of the season, he's had a young and inexperienced keeper behind him and LB/RBs that are all relatively disorganised when defending.
Ultimately, our back 5 incl. GK needs to be a lot better. I think a Hector replacement would level up the others - I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen Hector try to divert blame with arm waving after conceding goals that he should have dealt with better. It's not good for the younger players and he's just never been the kind of player that has ever impressed me. Our CBs have been that way for a while and, unless January gets us a replacement, it'll likely be another 7-10th finish.
Not commanding in the air, not aggressive, not reliable, very slow, no leadership and no threat from our set pieces. Tends to play well against weaker opposition (Cambridge. Reading) but shirks a real battle (Bolton).
Some superb distribution, sublime tackles and calm in a crisis.
Would be ideal in a back three with a Pearce/Innis type or maybe better as a defensive midfielder protecting a young back four after Dobbo leaves in January.
"Finally someone who understands football"
This is such a stupid fucking website honestly
Never mind that he prevents countless goals by his for this level brilliant tackling, interceptions, proactivity and blocking. Never mind that he's basically our playmaker at the moment, best passer at the club and one of the best touches too. Never mind that he's surrounded by fullbacks and midfielders who are made of papier mache and let opposition players waltz past them like they're not there. Nah, he missed that one ball against Port Vale so he's shit. Fucking hell, at least it wasn't against Millwall
When I first read Hector had made double the amount of errors leading to goals as the next man I thought we were dealing with numbers like 5 errors and the next man on 2.
3 errors compared to 1 whilst technically correct as double the next man is also a very misleading headline to suit a narrative the numbers are too small for headlines like that and it’s something that irritates me a lot in life in general when this kind of headline is created.
Hector has badly underperformed this season but to this credit was solid on Saturday long may that continue.
I did tell him and he wasn't very receptive.
Not surprising really when he signed most of them.
@Leuth will be happy this morning
There are better options, would only take him on low wages and as a bench option, we won't go up with him as a main centre back
Given his age and experience I would have hoped for demonstrative command, leadership and example, but he is what he is.
We'll just have to get that from elsewhere.
I wouldn’t be any rush to offer him a new deal, especially not if his wage suggests he’s a regular starter.
“I am enjoying my football here and I’d love to stay – my family are very local,” said Hector. “It is the right place for me and I’m helping the younger boys as well, which is a key role for me.