All this talk of budgets isnt TS being tight, aren't there FFP rules in place in the division re ratio of wages to turnover?
Ipswich seem to be either ignoring these and the squad limit or are confident its going to get kicked into touch by the PFA. I can see that happening with the squad limit but not the wages, thats been around for a few seasons
I think we may be playing by the rules as are others and this may help clubs, players and their agents get real the closer we get to deadline day.
Since the salary cap was scrapped, the league has reverted to the prior rules that stated 60% of turnover could go towards the wage bill. From this you can work out a rough ceiling for our salary limits.
The other limit in place is a squad size cap which limits league 1 and 2 to 22 players (with some exceptions). I've written more about it here: https://wp.me/pcUFuQ-3S
Dempsey is an intresting one, can we just leave him, or anyone else, put of the squad like you can in the Premier League?
Or do we have to physically move him else where?
We can just exclude him. I'd do the same with JFC until January too.
This is the kind of thing the recruitment team and TS are up against.
Expectations have been set so high, no matter what good business we do, it will be seen as “being done on the cheap” by a vocal section of the fan base.
Not digging out this specific poster but it does show how some fans are living in a completely different reality.
Tucker for £0.5m LOL
So to be open this was my post on Twitter.
My intention was simply to create some debate over who you’d like us to sign if we did spend bit mainly about the balance between do you spend the money and push for promotion and the extra £6m it delivers or do you do it on a budget and continue to lose £5-10m each season of you don’t go up?
Effectively what’s more cost effective / the best way. Not a serious demand of TS - and anyone who thinks it was needs to remove the stick from up their arse!
If you read the full thread you can clearly see I say I don’t expect this to happen at all. It’s just some fun, musings, ideas.
But it also Shows one of the biggest problems - our fanbase is divided right now between ‘The realists’ or the ‘Cult of Sandgaard’ or whatever you want to call it. I try sit in the middle-ish But it’s pretty nasty on the socials.
If anyone posts anything on socials it just becomes a mud slinging match, point scoring with people trying to mug people off and a battle between the two sides. Our fan base isn’t a nice place right now, largely instigated by TS’s ridiculous claims. As evidenced on here by the comments to my post and it’s why I rarely post anymore after trying to get involved with this ‘community’
The names selected were simply players I rate I have no ideas on the fees, I’m just a fan. But for your information I was told by some people who have a direct line in that yeah we did hold discussions with Tucker (no fee agreed) and we did discuss a deal when Charles (he was interested but wants a Champ move, if not would consider us) so is it really so ridiculous or living in another reality?
… and yeah I really do love FM have played it successfully for 30 years particularly on my business travels 👍🏼
So chill the F out people it was just a bit of fun. It’s only football!
Divided fan base which you’ve added fuel to the fire with needless comments on TS
So we can’t challenge anything TS says or does… we just blindly agree because it’s TS?
But well done ignore everything I wrote just to summarise in that way. Your a great example of what I described 👍🏼
Telling the guy how to spend his money and act as chief scout on Twitter. Not long before schools go back and social media won’t be full of this rubbish 👏🏻
Where was I being TS’s chief scout and telling him how to spend his money 🤣🤣🤣
I said it was a bit of fun and bit of fantasy football and what it.
You really need to calm down, breathe and try to debate rather than just chucking out insults & snidey comments
I just find it very weird that fully grown men go onto Twitter and list signings we should make and how much we should pay, having a pop at the owner for not following your suggestions along the way.
When did I have a pop for not following my suggested signings? … your just making stuff up now, that’s pretty weird too.
IT WAS JUST A BIT OF FUN TO HAVE A DEBATE ON POTENTIAL SIGNINGS AND THE RIGHT TRANSFER STRATEGY.
My God..The long winter evenings must just fly by attempting to read that, forgive me I didn't get to the end, a nightmare of regulations that without doubt could trip up anybody.
Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worrying
We are an average League 1 team .
We were an average League 1 team in the Crofts/Foley era. I don’t think we’re as poor as that now. We can revisit this in a few weeks time.
It would be an interesting game. On the balance of it, I think that side would edge it against the current side - although we still have a lot more building to do.
Let’s not forget that side included: Phillips, Aribo, Teixeira, Fox, Konsa, Grant, Lookman, Magennis, Pearce, Solly, JFC, Jay Dasilva and loads of other squad players like Chickson and Ulvestad.
Looking back it was a team worse than the sum of its parts
Can I just say deleting as I was so inaccurate it's crazy. Completely forgot about half that season, probably not a bad thing!
Despite the doom and gloom we are are million miles away from these two beautiful teams 🙄🙄
Teams of nightmares - Christ we have had some bad players.
There are several players in those teams that I have no real recollection of having ever played for Charlton such was their impact.
Absolutely, Foley, Bessone, Parrett, I genuinely don't remember them at all. Anyinsah I vaguely remember signing but couldn't tell you a single thing about his time at Charlton now.
This is the kind of thing the recruitment team and TS are up against.
Expectations have been set so high, no matter what good business we do, it will be seen as “being done on the cheap” by a vocal section of the fan base.
Not digging out this specific poster but it does show how some fans are living in a completely different reality.
Tucker for £0.5m LOL
So to be open this was my post on Twitter.
My intention was simply to create some debate over who you’d like us to sign if we did spend bit mainly about the balance between do you spend the money and push for promotion and the extra £6m it delivers or do you do it on a budget and continue to lose £5-10m each season of you don’t go up?
Effectively what’s more cost effective / the best way. Not a serious demand of TS - and anyone who thinks it was needs to remove the stick from up their arse!
If you read the full thread you can clearly see I say I don’t expect this to happen at all. It’s just some fun, musings, ideas.
But it also Shows one of the biggest problems - our fanbase is divided right now between ‘The realists’ or the ‘Cult of Sandgaard’ or whatever you want to call it. I try sit in the middle-ish But it’s pretty nasty on the socials.
If anyone posts anything on socials it just becomes a mud slinging match, point scoring with people trying to mug people off and a battle between the two sides. Our fan base isn’t a nice place right now, largely instigated by TS’s ridiculous claims. As evidenced on here by the comments to my post and it’s why I rarely post anymore after trying to get involved with this ‘community’
The names selected were simply players I rate I have no ideas on the fees, I’m just a fan. But for your information I was told by some people who have a direct line in that yeah we did hold discussions with Tucker (no fee agreed) and we did discuss a deal when Charles (he was interested but wants a Champ move, if not would consider us) so is it really so ridiculous or living in another reality?
… and yeah I really do love FM have played it successfully for 30 years particularly on my business travels 👍🏼
So chill the F out people it was just a bit of fun. It’s only football!
Divided fan base which you’ve added fuel to the fire with needless comments on TS
So we can’t challenge anything TS says or does… we just blindly agree because it’s TS?
But well done ignore everything I wrote just to summarise in that way. Your a great example of what I described 👍🏼
Telling the guy how to spend his money and act as chief scout on Twitter. Not long before schools go back and social media won’t be full of this rubbish 👏🏻
Where was I being TS’s chief scout and telling him how to spend his money 🤣🤣🤣
I said it was a bit of fun and bit of fantasy football and what it.
You really need to calm down, breathe and try to debate rather than just chucking out insults & snidey comments
I just find it very weird that fully grown men go onto Twitter and list signings we should make and how much we should pay, having a pop at the owner for not following your suggestions along the way.
When did I have a pop for not following my suggested signings? … your just making stuff up now, that’s pretty weird too.
IT WAS JUST A BIT OF FUN TO HAVE A DEBATE ON POTENTIAL SIGNINGS AND THE RIGHT TRANSFER STRATEGY.
… get over yourself
I should give up mate head bashing and wall come into it somewhere..
opinion from my souurce is that its a matter of him being tight as we should't be struggling as our club is massive yet for some reason were struggling to attract players
Dodgy source but it's a real rumour. This windows been so slow just a dodgy rumour gets me excited. Please be true!
opinion from my souurce is that its a matter of him being tight as we should't be struggling as our club is massive yet for some reason were struggling to attract players
Dodgy source but it's a real rumour. This windows been so slow just a dodgy rumour gets me excited. Please be true!
Stockley 6k a week and we offered Graham 9k a week .. don’t think that’s tight
opinion from my souurce is that its a matter of him being tight as we should't be struggling as our club is massive yet for some reason were struggling to attract players
Dodgy source but it's a real rumour. This windows been so slow just a dodgy rumour gets me excited. Please be true!
Stockley 6k a week and we offered Graham 9k a week .. don’t think that’s tight
There's no way we've offered anyone £9k a week. We paid money for Stockley, made him our 'main man' and are paying him '£6k'. Not sure where you get those figures from
The side we had last year was one of the dullest Charlton sides I've seen. We've then lost the most exciting attacking players from that squad in Aneke and Millar and not replaced them so far (maybe Kirk will)
How many of the squad would you say could play championship football? A handful maybe? That's the problem, our past two promotions you could see our players had the ability to do so. This current crop, although very early days, the signs don't look good.
opinion from my souurce is that its a matter of him being tight as we should't be struggling as our club is massive yet for some reason were struggling to attract players
Dodgy source but it's a real rumour. This windows been so slow just a dodgy rumour gets me excited. Please be true!
Stockley 6k a week and we offered Graham 9k a week .. don’t think that’s tight
The side we had last year was one of the dullest Charlton sides I've seen. We've then lost the most exciting attacking players from that squad in Aneke and Millar and not replaced them so far (maybe Kirk will)
How many of the squad would you say could play championship football? A handful maybe? That's the problem, our past two promotions you could see our players had the ability to do so. This current crop, although very early days, the signs don't look good.
Not even sure I'd say a handful to a decent level. Famewo, Matthews and Stockley could do a job if he had a partner then I'm struggling. Most would probably say Inniss but I'm not sure.
Just over 2 weeks of the window left. We need 5-6 players. In our recruitment staff we trust ? Well , actually, no.
I think we maybe need one more than that to get ourselves in the position we need to be:
Striker to compete with Stockley Morgan replacement (Morgan becomes squad player) Clare replacement (Clare becomes squad player) New left back Additional centre back option Reserve keeper to put pressure on the new bloke
Potentially also be nice to get squad options to compete with DJ….
So 6-7…. We have been told to be patient and they will come. Guess we will find out in the next two weeks.
We're working hard but come deadline day we just won't be able to get them over the line. Things have gone sour very quickly. Yes TS possibly saved our bacon & continues to fund the club but we're going nowhere.
Lowery is refusing to even negotiate on a new contract isn't he? For those who don't follow players from other clubs, what type of midfielder is he, won't pass the height test will he?
Can everyone thats saying we are obviously refusing to pay wages, at least acknowledge that TS is spending his own money, while the Ipswich owner is spending the money of others ?
Exactly, very easy to spend Karen from Ohio 401k then your own money
I do find this whole pension investment thing at Ipswich very interesting. I like alot of people have a SIPP and through that own some commercial property. When one of them need some maintenance the pension administrator insists I get 3 quotes for anything I spend from my SIPP. This is slightly annoying as I own a building maintenance company lol, but that is the job of a pension administrator and why I pay them their fees. How on earth has the administrator of that American fund approved investment into a football club in the uk ?
The pension fund has not made a direct investment in the club, it is has passed over it would seem about 0.03%, an insignificant part, of its £13bn of assets to a modest US portfolio manager ORG Portfolio Management as a small play on the market to diversify returns with a bit of risk and a higher potential return.
It seems most of the investment will have been to acquire debt and property from Marcus Evans, so mostly fixed rate returns, and probably at tasty rates. That is the attraction for the pension fund.
The 90% equity gives ORG overall control to appoint management and give a windfall if Ipswich get promoted and justify the level of risk being taken. It does not mean there is a gravy train of cash pouring out of the pension fund. It is an arms length investment via ORG and if it goes bad it will just be one of the many small higher risk investments that statistically will go bad for the pension fund.
The pension fund will not be involved in the day to day running of the club, or writing cheques for Paul Cook, that is down to the management team. ORG is 90% shareholder but only has one representative sitting on the board. That is not the set up if you gave the club your magic porridge pot.
The management team calling the shots and spunking money on players are the 3 yanks who own "Three Lions Fund" which has a 5% investment and the CEO who is ex West Brom CEO. If it goes bad these will be the fall guys who ORG will blame for losing money for their client pension fund. ORG is not playing with its own money and it will not throw good money after bad on behalf of its client.
The idea that the pension fund is writing cheques for Paul Cook, or that he has access to an unlimited source of money is fanciful.
Paul Cook has been given the keys to the sweet shop, but when he runs out of sweets and the club is still in League 1 he will be stuffed even if the ultimate owner does have £13bn of assets.
How does ORG/the pension fund make a return on its investment? I know the club could make money if they reach the Premier League, but how does that equate to an ROI for the fund? Is it going to be similar to the Glazers at Man Utd?
That’s exactly it, as Dippenhall, it one high risk investment for the pension fund. Many funds have a high risk component. The story alway was that if 1 in 5 worked you made a profit even after writing off the other 4. It’s a bundle of cash for Ipswich, and a very small financial hit for the fund if it doesn’t work. But it not a cash stream. If they don’t succeed this year, or maybe next, the money will dry up quickly.
I think with their recruitment this window and with Paul Cook at the helm, Ipswich will more than likely get promoted this season, or at least let’s say have an outstanding chance. Part one of the strategy ✔️. Getting out of league one this way is one thing. Getting out of The Championship using the same strategy is quite another. Quite a few of this seasons buys and many of those remaining from before won’t cut it in The Championship. They’ll have to spend big again next season at a much greater cost with much less guaranteed success. It’s possible but if Ipswich are not in The Premier League in 24/25 then how long will the money tap be open. If and when it does close what then. Very high risk strategy.
Ipswich's approach isn't as high risk as people keep saying. For the sake of simplicity I am going to use the following assumptions.
They get the same crowds as us. Their academy has the same over heads as ours. Their commercial and TV revenue is the same as us. Their nonfootball staffing costs are similar to ours. Despite increased costs you can get a lot closer to break even in the championship.
For a club of a similar size to us a wage bill of about 8 to 10 million a year and revenue in the region of 7 million, in league 1 is about right. Once you factor in all the other costs your looking at a loss of about 9ish million. Plus or minus transfers.
That's probably, more or less, true for about 6 clubs in league 1 this season, who have owners that can cover the loss. Then you have about six more that have significantly smaller fixed costs and over heads, but significantly smaller revenue streams (crowds, commercial etc) but can still pay decent wages and top it up with player sales.
I would suggest before you start every season there are 10-12 clubs who's aim is promotion. Most won't get promoted will have to book the loss and repeat it again next year.
If you work on the basis that most 1st team players at the "big clubs" are on between 4 and 6k a week. Going "all in" and paying all your first team 10k a week would increase your wage bill by about 3 million a year. Ipswich are not paying all their first team 10k a week, or even close in most cases.
You can cover that with one good sale if you don't go up. Someone like Fraser or Pigott, for example.
The clubs who get in big trouble, generally, are the championship clubs that end up paying 30k a week plus, in some cases plus a lot, chasing the premier league.
There is a middle ground to be found in the championship, there isn't in league 1 for a club as big as us and Ipswich.
Ipswich made around 3m in transfer fees by selling Dozzell, Downes and Gibbs this summer, so a lot of the money they've spent on their 16 signings has actually been recouped.
But then most L1 clubs made money from transfer dealings. During 2020/21 we sold Bonne, Phillips and Doughty, that must be at least £3m.
I doubt we even made half of £3m
Bonne was 2m alone…
QPR did not spend £2m on Bonne, Richard Cawley debunked that at the time
Lowery is refusing to even negotiate on a new contract isn't he? For those who don't follow players from other clubs, what type of midfielder is he, won't pass the height test will he?
Can everyone thats saying we are obviously refusing to pay wages, at least acknowledge that TS is spending his own money, while the Ipswich owner is spending the money of others ?
Exactly, very easy to spend Karen from Ohio 401k then your own money
I do find this whole pension investment thing at Ipswich very interesting. I like alot of people have a SIPP and through that own some commercial property. When one of them need some maintenance the pension administrator insists I get 3 quotes for anything I spend from my SIPP. This is slightly annoying as I own a building maintenance company lol, but that is the job of a pension administrator and why I pay them their fees. How on earth has the administrator of that American fund approved investment into a football club in the uk ?
The pension fund has not made a direct investment in the club, it is has passed over it would seem about 0.03%, an insignificant part, of its £13bn of assets to a modest US portfolio manager ORG Portfolio Management as a small play on the market to diversify returns with a bit of risk and a higher potential return.
It seems most of the investment will have been to acquire debt and property from Marcus Evans, so mostly fixed rate returns, and probably at tasty rates. That is the attraction for the pension fund.
The 90% equity gives ORG overall control to appoint management and give a windfall if Ipswich get promoted and justify the level of risk being taken. It does not mean there is a gravy train of cash pouring out of the pension fund. It is an arms length investment via ORG and if it goes bad it will just be one of the many small higher risk investments that statistically will go bad for the pension fund.
The pension fund will not be involved in the day to day running of the club, or writing cheques for Paul Cook, that is down to the management team. ORG is 90% shareholder but only has one representative sitting on the board. That is not the set up if you gave the club your magic porridge pot.
The management team calling the shots and spunking money on players are the 3 yanks who own "Three Lions Fund" which has a 5% investment and the CEO who is ex West Brom CEO. If it goes bad these will be the fall guys who ORG will blame for losing money for their client pension fund. ORG is not playing with its own money and it will not throw good money after bad on behalf of its client.
The idea that the pension fund is writing cheques for Paul Cook, or that he has access to an unlimited source of money is fanciful.
Paul Cook has been given the keys to the sweet shop, but when he runs out of sweets and the club is still in League 1 he will be stuffed even if the ultimate owner does have £13bn of assets.
How does ORG/the pension fund make a return on its investment? I know the club could make money if they reach the Premier League, but how does that equate to an ROI for the fund? Is it going to be similar to the Glazers at Man Utd?
That’s exactly it, as Dippenhall, it one high risk investment for the pension fund. Many funds have a high risk component. The story alway was that if 1 in 5 worked you made a profit even after writing off the other 4. It’s a bundle of cash for Ipswich, and a very small financial hit for the fund if it doesn’t work. But it not a cash stream. If they don’t succeed this year, or maybe next, the money will dry up quickly.
I think with their recruitment this window and with Paul Cook at the helm, Ipswich will more than likely get promoted this season, or at least let’s say have an outstanding chance. Part one of the strategy ✔️. Getting out of league one this way is one thing. Getting out of The Championship using the same strategy is quite another. Quite a few of this seasons buys and many of those remaining from before won’t cut it in The Championship. They’ll have to spend big again next season at a much greater cost with much less guaranteed success. It’s possible but if Ipswich are not in The Premier League in 24/25 then how long will the money tap be open. If and when it does close what then. Very high risk strategy.
Ipswich's approach isn't as high risk as people keep saying. For the sake of simplicity I am going to use the following assumptions.
They get the same crowds as us. Their academy has the same over heads as ours. Their commercial and TV revenue is the same as us. Their nonfootball staffing costs are similar to ours. Despite increased costs you can get a lot closer to break even in the championship.
For a club of a similar size to us a wage bill of about 8 to 10 million a year and revenue in the region of 7 million, in league 1 is about right. Once you factor in all the other costs your looking at a loss of about 9ish million. Plus or minus transfers.
That's probably, more or less, true for about 6 clubs in league 1 this season, who have owners that can cover the loss. Then you have about six more that have significantly smaller fixed costs and over heads, but significantly smaller revenue streams (crowds, commercial etc) but can still pay decent wages and top it up with player sales.
I would suggest before you start every season there are 10-12 clubs who's aim is promotion. Most won't get promoted will have to book the loss and repeat it again next year.
If you work on the basis that most 1st team players at the "big clubs" are on between 4 and 6k a week. Going "all in" and paying all your first team 10k a week would increase your wage bill by about 3 million a year. Ipswich are not paying all their first team 10k a week, or even close in most cases.
You can cover that with one good sale if you don't go up. Someone like Fraser or Pigott, for example.
The clubs who get in big trouble, generally, are the championship clubs that end up paying 30k a week plus, in some cases plus a lot, chasing the premier league.
There is a middle ground to be found in the championship, there isn't in league 1 for a club as big as us and Ipswich.
Ipswich made around 3m in transfer fees by selling Dozzell, Downes and Gibbs this summer, so a lot of the money they've spent on their 16 signings has actually been recouped.
But then most L1 clubs made money from transfer dealings. During 2020/21 we sold Bonne, Phillips and Doughty, that must be at least £3m.
I doubt we even made half of £3m
Bonne was 2m alone…
QPR did not spend £2m on Bonne, Richard Cawley debunked that at the time
Fair enough. How much did we get for him? Still can’t see us selling him, Phillips and Doughty for less 1.5m.
Obviously getting these deals done is not really simple, however , I think this is a perfectly reasonable tweet and thought process. The top 4 players are all playing in League 1 and will all be on lower wages than we should be able to afford bearing in mind 3 of them play in front of crowds of 5k or less. The loan player will be a Prem loan. Maybe they want to go to the Championship but money there seems even tighter than our League and as we reach the end of the window , its reasonable to assume that prices will fall a bit from those quoted above.
None of us are privy to what Thomas's financial limitations are but I think the basic premise above is a fair one that with the players quoted, all of whom are likely to be available and on 'relatively' low wages we would be building a team for the next 3-4 years and we would have a much greater chance of promotion which brings a stronger financial model.
Trouble is he criticised TS for his "ridiculous claims" and begins this bit of fun with "it's really simple".
Well picking a list of realistic targets is simple - but never said getting the deals done would.
The claims from TS we’re ridiculous and are proving so, his raising of expectations is a large reason why a big section of the fans are unhappy. That can’t be disputed.
and to be fair I didn’t Criticise him in the post only on here even though. Some people seem to think you can’t be a TS supporter but still disagree with things he does.
It absolutely can. I really don't know how people somehow took what was clearly an extravagant and excitable person being extravagant and excitable as some sort of gospel truth or policy pledge.
If it is "ridiculous" now, it was equally ridiculous then, and if this is true then more fool anyone who took it seriously and now feels daft. Reality is we are in League One in a post-Covid reality and competing against clubs like Sunderland, Wigan and Ipswich (Just as examples) who can at least match us in the market and probably offer more.
Lowery is refusing to even negotiate on a new contract isn't he? For those who don't follow players from other clubs, what type of midfielder is he, won't pass the height test will he?
Midfield playmaker, more assists than goals. Not sure why we wouldn’t have enquired about him whilst talking to Crewe about Kirk? Unless we have, it’s a rumour I’ll take it.
Lowery is refusing to even negotiate on a new contract isn't he? For those who don't follow players from other clubs, what type of midfielder is he, won't pass the height test will he?
He's the opposite, more Ajose-sized
I've seen he's on the smaller side, but seems to be a quick and clever 8/10 type midfielder? Crewe will want to cash out while they can it seems
Lowery is refusing to even negotiate on a new contract isn't he? For those who don't follow players from other clubs, what type of midfielder is he, won't pass the height test will he?
Midfield playmaker, more assists than goals. Not sure why we wouldn’t have enquired about him whilst talking to Crewe about Kirk? Unless we have, it’s a rumour I’ll take it.
The rumour is that Gallen is in Crewe again, could be he got the train to MK, fell asleep and ended up in Crewe by accident
Comments
IT WAS JUST A BIT OF FUN TO HAVE A DEBATE ON POTENTIAL SIGNINGS AND THE RIGHT TRANSFER STRATEGY.
… get over yourself
I should give up mate head bashing and wall come into it somewhere..
This windows been so slow just a dodgy rumour gets me excited.
Please be true!
How many of the squad would you say could play championship football? A handful maybe? That's the problem, our past two promotions you could see our players had the ability to do so. This current crop, although very early days, the signs don't look good.
If it is "ridiculous" now, it was equally ridiculous then, and if this is true then more fool anyone who took it seriously and now feels daft. Reality is we are in League One in a post-Covid reality and competing against clubs like Sunderland, Wigan and Ipswich (Just as examples) who can at least match us in the market and probably offer more.