Yesterday was abysmal. However, Bowyer has earned the right to have this January window under Sandgaard. Not many wanted him out before the 2 centre halves got injured. We need some patience here...
I would agree with you in part, but the defence (which is poor) isn't the issue. Bowyer basically started yesterday the way we finished against Swindon, obsessively trying to block the opposition at all costs. Both Williams and Madisson have recently been rewarded for good performances by being dropped, and yesterday, the initial line up didn't work but Williams came on late and Madisson not at all. Right footed players on the left, and vice versa - how many times does this not work before it sinks in? Then there's this hanging players out to dry thing. Bogle was awful yesterday, and I'm sure he knows it. Did Bowyer need to splurge that out in post match interviews?
This all reminds me of the last season of Chris Powell, another manager who regularly played players out of position with uniformly poor results towards the end of his Charlton time. We don't have a great squad, even by the mediocre standards of league 1, but we are setting out as if we are anchored in a relegation fight, and week after miserable week, we play out the same tired jaded football.
We had a real boost in the second half against Shrewsbury, but went straight back to our frightened selves immediately afterwards. The January window will be irrelevant unless Bowyer changes his mentality, but there is no evidence he will, more of a bunker mentality that one day the fear tactics will net us a win. They might but they won't get us enough for a play off spot.
Bowyer will be given until next October, he will get the summer to do a full pre seasons business and if it doesn’t work out by October he will be gone, part of me thinks he needs a full hand like Powell was given by Jiminez and Slater.
Bowyer will be given until next October, he will get the summer to do a full pre seasons business and if it doesn’t work out by October he will be gone, part of me thinks he needs a full hand like Powell was given by Jiminez and Slater.
At last, somebody else being sensible.
Its sensible, but no amount of pre season or having a full window stops these crazy decisions, defensive lineups, playing people out of position and constantly trying to defend leads.
I desperately hope things come together and he's still manager next season when we all return to The Valley, but atm being optimistic isn't easy.
Yesterday was abysmal. However, Bowyer has earned the right to have this January window under Sandgaard. Not many wanted him out before the 2 centre halves got injured. We need some patience here...
So, how long does Bowyer get? A week after the end of the window? That prevents a new face making his mark on the signings.
To the end of the season? That could blow any chance of promotion based on current form and team set up and selection.
I would love Bowyer to turn it around and perhaps he will. Based on current evidence, I'm afraid that I don't see it though.
Given the ambitions Thomas has voiced, I'd be surprised if he allows Bowyer to continue for much longer if there is no change in approach.
Do you think another manager could come in and get us up this season ?
Yes. Do you think anyone else could have done much worse, with the players available, over the last 2 months?
I appreciate we are in a bad run. Losing the 2 centre halves has been a disaster. But I think this talk of Bowyer going is premature, just my opinion
When does a bad run become more than that?
Of course losing the center halves isn't great but we weren't playing well when they were in the team either.
Obviously you can't blame Bowyer for getting relegated, even without the ESI situation, staying up would have been a massive achievement. But how many times in 2020 did we play well?
I ask that because in 2019, even with a U21 side, well played well even when we didn't win. We even played well in games we lost.
When your playing badly and losing people look on things more critically, even retrospectively. Bizarre team selection, strange substitutions, publicly slagging players off, freezing players out etc all gets forgotten when your winning.
If you look back the signs were there before the Covid break. It's not an overnight issue.
Love Bowyer, but if hes given until the end of the season and we dont finish in the playoffs, he has to go. I know we got hammered by injuries last season, but his decision making was awful and we dropped endless points that would have kept us up.
TS arrived and demanded attacking football and promotion, neither of which are happening. Still plenty of games to go though, need a good jan and not to lose any more players
Sandgaard has given two seasons for promotion. Hopefully he'll stick to his words and give Bowyer time. Loyalty and stability has long gone and made football the mess it is now.
Again it's the lack of confidence in the players and setting up to negate the other teams play. We have a top league one squad with the odd player who on their day could be mid/lower championship show a bit of faith in them.
Since around the mid point of last season this mentality has taken over Bowyer, a lack of a "plan B" when the main man is out, a sort of "well it's not gonna plan out how I wanted, so just don't lose" as soon as we lost the pace of Doughty and Smyth on the left that's pretty much how it's been this season.
Picking the odd player out of position for tactical reasons sure it happens, but 4 players is too many especially when you have ones better suited to the formation, or even, better players suited to a better formation you can play.
Midfield diamond, 3CB, 433. Three formations that Bowyer has used a lot the first 2 being his original go to before the change this season to 433.
Amos
Gunter Oshilaja Pearce Maatsen
Watson
Morgan JFC Williams
Washington Bogle
Amos
Pratley Oshilaja Pearce
Matthews Maatsen
Watson JFC
Williams
Washington Bogle
Amos
Gunter Oshilaja Pearce Maatsen Gilbey Pratley JFC
Madison Washington Smyth
Amos
Gunter Pratley Pearce Matthews
Maatsen Watson JFC Morgan
Washington Bogle
I know which of these I prefer the look of...
Would we have won, maybe maybe not, but we would have looked better as we did once we changed yesterday.
And no, I don't think playing Oshilaja is going to send us to the top of the table or stop us conceding, but it'll give us better balance than playing an aging midfielder there, especially one that's been pretty kamikaze the last few games.
Read the bit about Pratley’s suspension and it costing us. I actually think it’s a blessing in disguise. I’ve not been impressed with the fact he seems to be first name on the team sheet every week and I think it will force Bowyer to play Oshilaja at the back with Pearce. Might not be the best centre back pairing in the world, but Oshilaja gives us a bit of bite and pace.
The Malik Wilks comment about playing on the right just epitomises the cautious negative football we seem to be playing at the moment. We’re sacrificing players in their normal positions for the sake of trying to nullify an opposing player. It’s too convoluted. As others have said, trust that your players are capable enough and let them deal with it. The whole team gets thrown into a positional bingo game on account of us worrying about Wilks ffs. He’s a decent player, but he’s not Messi. The whole thing just screams weakness on our part that we’re going to those lengths to nullify and not focus on what we need to do to win a game.
The final point I’ve got is about the piss poor standard of the league. I agree it’s bad, but when I read comments over and over again and see performances like the ones we’ve turned in over the last 10 games, I think, we’re right at home in it
Watson too - I doubt many teams have got promoted starting two 35 year old defensive midfielders in every game. Bowyer’s reluctance to give Morgan a run despite him offering creativity and mobility. It might also force him to start one of Maddison or Williams in every game.
Good to have experience in the squad, but neither are so good that they should always be guaranteed starters. It’s not as if this squad is as young as squads we’ve had in recent years, for one thing we’re playing fewer academy players.
when it comes to our youth Bowyer seems to have no time for them.
I'm not saying these youngsters are the answer but the players who are in their position are hopeless so why not give them a go??
Youngsters bring quick feet, energy and enthusiasm. Could be a breath of fresh air to a jaded team.
This is a really good point. I know it's a completely different level, but just look at how Arteta's persistence with the likes of Saka and Smith-Rowe is finally paying off. I listened to Saka's post-match interview last night and he said that him and the other 'youngsters' are buzzing for it, and how Arteta's faith and trust in them has really boosted their performance levels and confidence.
As I say, it's arguable a very tenuous comparison, but at the end of the day 'People are People' and are motivated by positivity and encouragement.
I don't rate Bogle, and that's not a new thing as I was wary about him when he signed. He was poor today.
However what I don't like is managers calling out players for missing a chance. Bowyer did it today with Bogle, and did it before with Bonne. Strikers don't score every chance, even the best miss chances. Watching Quest just now, the likes of Troy Deeney and Todd Cantwell both missed sitters, and it's hardly the way to get confidence in a player if they get hauled off and publicly bollocked after missing their one chance.
He's digging a player out a week. Two today if you include Pratley. He is however reluctant to dig himself out.
It's not a good look and won't have gone unnoticed in the dressing room. I fear he may be running out of options. It is what it is as they say,and whether he likes it or not he needs the majority of this squad to get him out of the hole he's in. I doubt there will be many helping hands if he continues to slag them off.
To those thinking the transfer window will be our saviour. Do you really think Bowyer in his current mindset needs more players to tinker with?
It’s taken Pratley getting sent off for him to finally get some sort of criticism. I’m not saying I want Pratley to get criticised, but it seems to me Bowyer does have his targets and I don’t think he does it fairly. Also, it’s not just about the criticism. He embarrassed Williams by hauling him off after coming on as sub at Shrewsbury, only for Williams to respond with a goal and really decent performance as sub against AFC a week later. Williams’ reward, to not start at all the following week against Swindon???
it’s a confrontational style of leadership and management, and there are volumes of qualified research and data into how that type of management is why employees leave workplaces in their droves. I get a football club is a bit different, but the same principle applies. People want to be inspired and motivated by leaders and managers in these times. This is key. Look at Klopp. I’m not suggesting Bowyer can replicate Klopp, but the trend is for managers that inspire
Really interesting points, Cabbles. Bowyer's leadership style(s) manifest themselves as predominantly both transactional and autocratic. Both can be very impactful in the short-term, but not necessarily successful over a longer period of time.
A good leader, of course, is adaptable. They are able to adopt a leadership style that suits a certain 'situation'. Yes, they will have a preferred or intrinsic style of leadership, but being able to utilise a variety of styles on the leadership spectrum is the sign of a good leader. It's very difficult to do, especially if you are naturally suited to a style that sits at either end of the spectrum.
The reason I want Bowyer gone is that I believe the squad is better than its recent results. I do accept 100% that we have suffered with key injuries but you adapt tactically around that. Or at least you try to.
I don't expect anybody to remember my position but up until the resumption from lockdown, I believed Bowyer was a great manager headed for the top. I supported him through the poor run we had last season because it was clear it was caused by a small squad and injuries. A couple of games stood out for me as managerial ineptness and they were Sheff Wednesday and Birmingham away and I believe these games cost us. But I also could see that it cost us what Bowyer had won us.
I have been holding off calling for him to go until now, but the repeated craziness of his ultra negative approach has just taken its toll. We are still well enough placed to get promoted and that creates a dilemma if you believe Bowyer is not going to maximise the possibility of promotion.
As for the claim that I don't know that Bowyer has lost the dressing room, or at least parts of it, I will say two things. Firstly, J Block, who is a trusted poster, has told us this from a playing source. It is absolutely right we don't know who that source is. Secondly, digging people out and not taking any blame yourself is a guaranteed way of doing this and that is what we have seen. You don't have to be a football genius to see Bowyer has been going about things the wrong way.
I don't see many defending his tactics. Just a few hoping he will change. I myself was hoping he would do so, but it is clear he won't. Had he picked a side that maximised the possibilities and failed, then it is the squad. Within parameters, as there will always be differences in team selection. But generally, when you see the team it raises eyebrows and it has become more and more bizarre. When a manager drops the previous man of the match it is bizarre. Bowyer has done this twice in recent games.
For me, it is a question whether we risk writing off the season or not. Now Sandgaard is a breath of fresh air and ultimately the club will go forwards under his ownership. But he must be wondering what is going on and if he suspects Bowyer may be holding back the chance of an early promotion he will surely act. If as I feel is very likely, Bowyer has lost parts of the dressing room, then he has to as this never gets fixed when it happens.
I am not for losing JJ, Gallen or anybody else. I think our recruitment is not an issue. Bowyer is responsible for these tactics, not anybody else.
i don't always agree with you Mutley, but this is bang on
Really getting pissed off with the amount of stick Bogle gets.Did he single handed lose that game yesterday,judging by whats being said on here ,it looks like it.Here is a man obviously short on confidence,but does he hide ,no,he is always showing for a pass,and nine times out of ten,this goes unnoticed because the ball is continually played sideways and backwards,by the time it is lumped up front too late.He is receiving the ball in non threatening positions,just look at the amount of times yesterday he got the ball just inside their half ,looked up for a team mate,nothing,all gone,so the ball gets lost. There are a lot of unanswered questions re team selection at the moment,and also the togetherness which was there a short while ago seems to have gone.Madison ,in my opinion should have started ,he could have got a load of early crosses in,which could have made a difference ,as it is ,other than corners,I do not remember one decent cross yesterday which was asking to be attacked .
I don't rate Bogle, and that's not a new thing as I was wary about him when he signed. He was poor today.
However what I don't like is managers calling out players for missing a chance. Bowyer did it today with Bogle, and did it before with Bonne. Strikers don't score every chance, even the best miss chances. Watching Quest just now, the likes of Troy Deeney and Todd Cantwell both missed sitters, and it's hardly the way to get confidence in a player if they get hauled off and publicly bollocked after missing their one chance.
He's digging a player out a week. Two today if you include Pratley. He is however reluctant to dig himself out.
It's not a good look and won't have gone unnoticed in the dressing room. I fear he may be running out of options. It is what it is as they say,and whether he likes it or not he needs the majority of this squad to get him out of the hole he's in. I doubt there will be many helping hands if he continues to slag them off.
To those thinking the transfer window will be our saviour. Do you really think Bowyer in his current mindset needs more players to tinker with?
It’s taken Pratley getting sent off for him to finally get some sort of criticism. I’m not saying I want Pratley to get criticised, but it seems to me Bowyer does have his targets and I don’t think he does it fairly. Also, it’s not just about the criticism. He embarrassed Williams by hauling him off after coming on as sub at Shrewsbury, only for Williams to respond with a goal and really decent performance as sub against AFC a week later. Williams’ reward, to not start at all the following week against Swindon???
it’s a confrontational style of leadership and management, and there are volumes of qualified research and data into how that type of management is why employees leave workplaces in their droves. I get a football club is a bit different, but the same principle applies. People want to be inspired and motivated by leaders and managers in these times. This is key. Look at Klopp. I’m not suggesting Bowyer can replicate Klopp, but the trend is for managers that inspire
Really interesting points, Cabbles. Bowyer's leadership style(s) manifest themselves as predominantly both transactional and autocratic. Both can be very impactful in the short-term, but not necessarily successful over a longer period of time.
A good leader, of course, is adaptable. They are able to adopt a leadership style that suits a certain 'situation'. Yes, they will have a preferred or intrinsic style of leadership, but being able to utilise a variety of styles on the leadership spectrum is the sign of a good leader. It's very difficult to do, especially if you are naturally suited to a style that sits at either end of the spectrum.
And of course, as we all know, when your under pressure you almost always revert to your default behaviour. It's much easier to "blag it" when your not.
Love Bowyer, but if hes given until the end of the season and we dont finish in the playoffs, he has to go. I know we got hammered by injuries last season, but his decision making was awful and we dropped endless points that would have kept us up.
TS arrived and demanded attacking football and promotion, neither of which are happening. Still plenty of games to go though, need a good jan and not to lose any more players... mattsen could still be recalled yet too.
i've been wondering whether we could see a repeat of the gallagher situation here - also wondering whether bowyer's lunacy will impact us getting anybody else from chelsea this window - i think curbs hinted at that saying the next 2 games are vital and being in top 3 or 4 would make a big difference in attracting players - nor being a car crash of a team atm would also help !!!
Personally i think it's too soon to consider sacking Bowyer, he needs a few more games to turn this around. He's had to do without Inniss, Famewo and Doughty for weeks. With those 3 fit i'm confident we'd be in the automatic spots. But he deserves criticism, his team selection yesterday was insane, his reluctance to play creative flair players is a problem, and there were rumours from a poster on here that a senior player said he does zero tactical work. It doesn't sound like the happiest of camps.
But i do hate it when people say 'well who could do a better job'. There are tons of managers out there, and many would be more than happy to work for an enthusiastic owner of a club based in London.
Look at Sheffield Wednesday last week, 'the club is a shit show', 'who can do better than Pulis', 'we're as good as relegated now'. Caretaker boss wins 2 out of 2 with the same squad.
Personally if i was Sandgaard, i'd be speaking to Bowyer today, trying to get his thoughts on the team selection (square pegs in round holes) and why he thinks things have gone so wrong, but also giving him a polite warning that i've invested over 10m and i don't expect to be stuck in the middle of league one, so the results and the performances had better improve. If things haven't improved by the end of January (we have 6 matches in that time, 4 of which are at home), then it'll be time for TS to make a call before it's too late and the season is gone.
Bogle couldn’t hit a banjo, let alone a cow’s arse with a banjo.
Feel a bit sorry for him.
Ok, he's not a great striker but lack of creativity from the rest of the team is making him look a lot worse.
Time to recall Davison? In the few games he's played he's looked to me as good as anyone else we have at the moment and he offers the youthful enthusiasm we are currently lacking. May spur on the others to greater things?
For what it’s worth, my opinion is that Bows is doing alright with a brand new squad that includes crap strikers. He’s still in credit but needs to improve once he gets Schwartz in. I’m a bit surprised at the playing players out of position too but as he’s said in the post match interview, he has a reason (at least!)
Unless Eddie Howe fancies another project starting in the lower leagues, which I highly doubt, I’d leave Bows, Jacko and Gallen to do their thing.
I think Danny makes a few good points here. I was raging about today's line-up and performance and Bowyer's persevering with tactics and players that aren't working. However, as fans we would be laughing at other clubs' fans looking to ditch their until now successful manager after a bumpy spell and be calling them bedwetters. The last thing we want is to start sacking managers prematurely, especially ones who have over-performed already in the job.
We all know we have been terribly unlucky to lose Inniss and Famewo for so long and we were short up front from the off and with a salary cap.
Having said all that, we must have someone better than Bogle. He joined us with a chronically poor track record which he's battled hard to maintain. I won't pay to watch another stream if he's playing.
One thing I say about other clubs fans.....they watch the games, they know the players & their best positions. They know when the manager gets it wrong or gets it right. Fans aren't fickle. They just KNOW. How many on here watch the streams of other clubs. I bet very very few. So when other fans ring up 606 or Talksport going on about their managers tactics and why x,y or z should be sacked I don't laugh at them or say they are stupid or "be careful what you wish for" because those fans go to games (pre Covid) or pay for live streams and they know what the manager should be doing. Fans aren't stupid.
In my opinion, fans are stupid if they want bowyer to leave when we’re in 6th place in a league where he has got us promoted before.
I don’t believe having patience in bowyer is going to end up with us finishing mid table. Still have faith he’ll turn this form around.
when williams and morgan played well at ipswich (the last time we played well, bar the second half against wimbledon when LB slipped up and put all our good attacking players on at once), the next game they were benched and out of nowhere came JFC - that is the moment i wondered whether there were issues with the dressing room and agenda's going on that maybe we aren't privy to - all will hopefully be revealed
For what it’s worth, my opinion is that Bows is doing alright with a brand new squad that includes crap strikers. He’s still in credit but needs to improve once he gets Schwartz in. I’m a bit surprised at the playing players out of position too but as he’s said in the post match interview, he has a reason (at least!)
Unless Eddie Howe fancies another project starting in the lower leagues, which I highly doubt, I’d leave Bows, Jacko and Gallen to do their thing.
I think Danny makes a few good points here. I was raging about today's line-up and performance and Bowyer's persevering with tactics and players that aren't working. However, as fans we would be laughing at other clubs' fans looking to ditch their until now successful manager after a bumpy spell and be calling them bedwetters. The last thing we want is to start sacking managers prematurely, especially ones who have over-performed already in the job.
We all know we have been terribly unlucky to lose Inniss and Famewo for so long and we were short up front from the off and with a salary cap.
Having said all that, we must have someone better than Bogle. He joined us with a chronically poor track record which he's battled hard to maintain. I won't pay to watch another stream if he's playing.
One thing I say about other clubs fans.....they watch the games, they know the players & their best positions. They know when the manager gets it wrong or gets it right. Fans aren't fickle. They just KNOW. How many on here watch the streams of other clubs. I bet very very few. So when other fans ring up 606 or Talksport going on about their managers tactics and why x,y or z should be sacked I don't laugh at them or say they are stupid or "be careful what you wish for" because those fans go to games (pre Covid) or pay for live streams and they know what the manager should be doing. Fans aren't stupid.
In my opinion, fans are stupid if they want bowyer to leave when we’re in 6th place in a league where he has got us promoted before.
I don’t believe having patience in bowyer is going to end up with us finishing mid table. Still have faith he’ll turn this form around.
How long has this form lasted? When was the last time we played well for 90, or even 60 minutes.
We weren't playing well when we were winning. Everyone accepted that, it's a scratch team, they haven't had time to jell, they haven't had time on the training ground etc etc.
Well the more time they have on the training ground they have the worse they get. The more puzzling the team selections are.
If its a blip, who is your player of 2020? Tricky isn't it. You could probably have a short list of 5 or 6 for 2019.
I don't rate Bogle, and that's not a new thing as I was wary about him when he signed. He was poor today.
However what I don't like is managers calling out players for missing a chance. Bowyer did it today with Bogle, and did it before with Bonne. Strikers don't score every chance, even the best miss chances. Watching Quest just now, the likes of Troy Deeney and Todd Cantwell both missed sitters, and it's hardly the way to get confidence in a player if they get hauled off and publicly bollocked after missing their one chance.
He's digging a player out a week. Two today if you include Pratley. He is however reluctant to dig himself out.
It's not a good look and won't have gone unnoticed in the dressing room. I fear he may be running out of options. It is what it is as they say,and whether he likes it or not he needs the majority of this squad to get him out of the hole he's in. I doubt there will be many helping hands if he continues to slag them off.
To those thinking the transfer window will be our saviour. Do you really think Bowyer in his current mindset needs more players to tinker with?
It’s taken Pratley getting sent off for him to finally get some sort of criticism. I’m not saying I want Pratley to get criticised, but it seems to me Bowyer does have his targets and I don’t think he does it fairly. Also, it’s not just about the criticism. He embarrassed Williams by hauling him off after coming on as sub at Shrewsbury, only for Williams to respond with a goal and really decent performance as sub against AFC a week later. Williams’ reward, to not start at all the following week against Swindon???
it’s a confrontational style of leadership and management, and there are volumes of qualified research and data into how that type of management is why employees leave workplaces in their droves. I get a football club is a bit different, but the same principle applies. People want to be inspired and motivated by leaders and managers in these times. This is key. Look at Klopp. I’m not suggesting Bowyer can replicate Klopp, but the trend is for managers that inspire
Really interesting points, Cabbles. Bowyer's leadership style(s) manifest themselves as predominantly both transactional and autocratic. Both can be very impactful in the short-term, but not necessarily successful over a longer period of time.
A good leader, of course, is adaptable. They are able to adopt a leadership style that suits a certain 'situation'. Yes, they will have a preferred or intrinsic style of leadership, but being able to utilise a variety of styles on the leadership spectrum is the sign of a good leader. It's very difficult to do, especially if you are naturally suited to a style that sits at either end of the spectrum.
And of course, as we all know, when your under pressure you almost always revert to your default behaviour. It's much easier to "blag it" when your not.
Yes, to a point mate, absolutely. That's all about the 'fight or flight' premise. A good leader is able to borrow behaviours that don't sit naturally and use them to adapt to a specific situation. By continuing to push yourself in such a way, you then unlock potential that was previously unknown to you.
When I was in the RAF, in particular, and as I progressed through the ranks, my 'comfortable' and natural leadership style was always very democratic and consultative (altruistic). However, I encountered numerous situations (on 'ops', incidents, etc) where I really had to stretch myself in the short-term and adopt a more autocratic and task focused approach. I had no choice. I simply had to fight my natural default setting.
I am (obviously) very similar as a person in everyday life, but have learnt to adapt accordingly (through experiences, training and a will to want to change). For me, the challenge for a leader is understanding and knowing when to redress the balance. As I said earlier, people are people, we run on emotion. A well motivated and 'loved' person (sense of belonging; high self-esteem) will be motivated to perform.
Absolutely staggered how willingly trigger happy people are. Embarrassing given how fawning most supporters were of him up to a few weeks ago. Football has got so short-termism it’s unreal.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins 4 draws 3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.
For what it’s worth, my opinion is that Bows is doing alright with a brand new squad that includes crap strikers. He’s still in credit but needs to improve once he gets Schwartz in. I’m a bit surprised at the playing players out of position too but as he’s said in the post match interview, he has a reason (at least!)
Unless Eddie Howe fancies another project starting in the lower leagues, which I highly doubt, I’d leave Bows, Jacko and Gallen to do their thing.
I think Danny makes a few good points here. I was raging about today's line-up and performance and Bowyer's persevering with tactics and players that aren't working. However, as fans we would be laughing at other clubs' fans looking to ditch their until now successful manager after a bumpy spell and be calling them bedwetters. The last thing we want is to start sacking managers prematurely, especially ones who have over-performed already in the job.
We all know we have been terribly unlucky to lose Inniss and Famewo for so long and we were short up front from the off and with a salary cap.
Having said all that, we must have someone better than Bogle. He joined us with a chronically poor track record which he's battled hard to maintain. I won't pay to watch another stream if he's playing.
One thing I say about other clubs fans.....they watch the games, they know the players & their best positions. They know when the manager gets it wrong or gets it right. Fans aren't fickle. They just KNOW. How many on here watch the streams of other clubs. I bet very very few. So when other fans ring up 606 or Talksport going on about their managers tactics and why x,y or z should be sacked I don't laugh at them or say they are stupid or "be careful what you wish for" because those fans go to games (pre Covid) or pay for live streams and they know what the manager should be doing. Fans aren't stupid.
In my opinion, fans are stupid if they want bowyer to leave when we’re in 6th place in a league where he has got us promoted before.
I don’t believe having patience in bowyer is going to end up with us finishing mid table. Still have faith he’ll turn this form around.
The form is the main concern though. 10 points from 9 games. Leaking goals. Failed to beat Burton, Gillingham, Plymouth, Swindon, MK Dons and Shrewsbury. Why is he persisting with Pratley at CB, why is he playing Matthews at left back when we have a left back on the bench? Why is he playing a left back on the right of midfield? Why are our 2 most creative players sat on the bench? Why do players who do well get dropped for the next game?
And yes we're 6th but Ipswich, Sunderland and Accrington can all go above us as they have games in hand.
For what it’s worth, my opinion is that Bows is doing alright with a brand new squad that includes crap strikers. He’s still in credit but needs to improve once he gets Schwartz in. I’m a bit surprised at the playing players out of position too but as he’s said in the post match interview, he has a reason (at least!)
Unless Eddie Howe fancies another project starting in the lower leagues, which I highly doubt, I’d leave Bows, Jacko and Gallen to do their thing.
I think Danny makes a few good points here. I was raging about today's line-up and performance and Bowyer's persevering with tactics and players that aren't working. However, as fans we would be laughing at other clubs' fans looking to ditch their until now successful manager after a bumpy spell and be calling them bedwetters. The last thing we want is to start sacking managers prematurely, especially ones who have over-performed already in the job.
We all know we have been terribly unlucky to lose Inniss and Famewo for so long and we were short up front from the off and with a salary cap.
Having said all that, we must have someone better than Bogle. He joined us with a chronically poor track record which he's battled hard to maintain. I won't pay to watch another stream if he's playing.
One thing I say about other clubs fans.....they watch the games, they know the players & their best positions. They know when the manager gets it wrong or gets it right. Fans aren't fickle. They just KNOW. How many on here watch the streams of other clubs. I bet very very few. So when other fans ring up 606 or Talksport going on about their managers tactics and why x,y or z should be sacked I don't laugh at them or say they are stupid or "be careful what you wish for" because those fans go to games (pre Covid) or pay for live streams and they know what the manager should be doing. Fans aren't stupid.
In my opinion, fans are stupid if they want bowyer to leave when we’re in 6th place in a league where he has got us promoted before.
I don’t believe having patience in bowyer is going to end up with us finishing mid table. Still have faith he’ll turn this form around.
How long has this form lasted? When was the last time we played well for 90, or even 60 minutes.
We weren't playing well when we were winning. Everyone accepted that, it's a scratch team, they haven't had time to jell, they haven't had time on the training ground etc etc.
Well the more time they have on the training ground they have the worse they get. The more puzzling the team selections are.
If its a blip, who is your player of 2020? Tricky isn't it. You could probably have a short list of 5 or 6 for 2019.
Well the form people are moaning about this season currently has us in 6th place (aware that some teams around us have games in hand now).
I’m very happy with 6th place on 3rd January.
Yes, my expectations for this season considering the mess we were in with owners, fake owners, embargo, missing wage cap, huge injuries are obviously lower than some people on here. I will continue to believe that bowyer shouldn’t be sacked for being in 6th place at this time.
Love Bowyer, but if hes given until the end of the season and we dont finish in the playoffs, he has to go. I know we got hammered by injuries last season, but his decision making was awful and we dropped endless points that would have kept us up.
TS arrived and demanded attacking football and promotion, neither of which are happening. Still plenty of games to go though, need a good jan and not to lose any more players
Sandgaard has given two seasons for promotion. Hopefully he'll stick to his words and give Bowyer time. Loyalty and stability has long gone and made football the mess it is now.
Totally agree with you regarding loyalty & stability, but you can't keep ploughing on with the same manager if he continues to make baffling & unnecessary changes.
We can all take losing if the team tries their collective best. We can all take losing if the manager tries something different, it doesn't work and he puts his hands up to it. Neither of these 2 things are happening at the moment. To a man we all said the same thing when the team was announced. No-one was surprised when we lost. I firmly believe that TS will give LB this season, but we wont be making the play-offs if LB continues playing players out of position or leaving game changes on the bench.
As a an aside, we might find clubs refusing to send their youngsters to us on loan if we start playing them out of position (Maatsen), fail to play them (Levitt) or generally start to f**k up their careers. Bowyers mantra of "we always improve players" is now getting laughable.
i'm surprised at your stance AFKA - this isn't a knee jerk thing on most people's part - this is a year long obsession with negative tactics that people are sick of - you may not want you're forum being partly responsible for the mounting pressure on bowyer but this tidal wave of opionion has been building for a year and without any inside info as to what the hell is behind LB's decisions, he appears to have lost the plot completely - and the dressing room.
For what it’s worth, my opinion is that Bows is doing alright with a brand new squad that includes crap strikers. He’s still in credit but needs to improve once he gets Schwartz in. I’m a bit surprised at the playing players out of position too but as he’s said in the post match interview, he has a reason (at least!)
Unless Eddie Howe fancies another project starting in the lower leagues, which I highly doubt, I’d leave Bows, Jacko and Gallen to do their thing.
I think Danny makes a few good points here. I was raging about today's line-up and performance and Bowyer's persevering with tactics and players that aren't working. However, as fans we would be laughing at other clubs' fans looking to ditch their until now successful manager after a bumpy spell and be calling them bedwetters. The last thing we want is to start sacking managers prematurely, especially ones who have over-performed already in the job.
We all know we have been terribly unlucky to lose Inniss and Famewo for so long and we were short up front from the off and with a salary cap.
Having said all that, we must have someone better than Bogle. He joined us with a chronically poor track record which he's battled hard to maintain. I won't pay to watch another stream if he's playing.
One thing I say about other clubs fans.....they watch the games, they know the players & their best positions. They know when the manager gets it wrong or gets it right. Fans aren't fickle. They just KNOW. How many on here watch the streams of other clubs. I bet very very few. So when other fans ring up 606 or Talksport going on about their managers tactics and why x,y or z should be sacked I don't laugh at them or say they are stupid or "be careful what you wish for" because those fans go to games (pre Covid) or pay for live streams and they know what the manager should be doing. Fans aren't stupid.
In my opinion, fans are stupid if they want bowyer to leave when we’re in 6th place in a league where he has got us promoted before.
I don’t believe having patience in bowyer is going to end up with us finishing mid table. Still have faith he’ll turn this form around.
The form is the main concern though. 10 points from 9 games. Leaking goals. Failed to beat Burton, Gillingham, Plymouth, Swindon, MK Dons and Shrewsbury. Why is he persisting with Pratley at CB, why is he playing Matthews at left back when we have a left back on the bench? Why is he playing a left back on the right of midfield? Why are our 2 most creative players sat on the bench? Why do players who do well get dropped for the next game?
And yes we're 6th but Ipswich, Sunderland and Accrington can all go above us as they have games in hand.
It doesn’t mean they will go above us. The same as the teams above us may have thought we’d go above them with our games in hand. Even if those teams you mention do go above us, the worst case scenario is 9th on GD and 3 points from 6th. To me, that’s not a sackable offence.
I don't see TS pulling the trigger right before the transfer window. It's the first proper opportunity he's had to work with Bowyer and Gallen, and from what has been said publicly they are looking for some pace in attack and reinforcement in defence.
If they succeed in that (and Bowyer recalibrates his tactics accordingly) the season can still be saved - we can return to the tactics that bought success earlier on.
If for whatever reason this doesn't happen though, I expect Bowyer to go, probably at the end of the season. TS strikes me as the type to see this season as consolidation and clearing out (behind the scenes as well as on the pitch) and if that means a new management team for the start of next season, he'll not hold off.
This ^^^ all the wailing and gnashing of teeth isn’t going to serve any purpose other than to get it off your chest but each to their own. Thomas will pull the trigger as and when he’s ready. A baying mob won’t change that.
I’ve seen managers come and go over the last six decades, so I’d like to think I have a bit of past experience to call upon. Bowyer is now showing a lot of traits of someone who is under pressure to turn things round and has adopted a siege mentality of ‘it’s my way or the highway’. He has been in the game for 30 years, a winner, an England international, played at the highest level and under some top managers. He has an abundance of football knowledge far greater than us mere mortals.
Some people have short memories, his dedication to the cause when this club was on its knees under the shysters should never be forgotten. Or that against the odds he took us into the play offs, after Gobinson bailed out and got us promoted the following season.
So he’s still in credit for me but the clock is ticking down for him he can’t live on past glories forever. Clearly the bulk of the squad which was cobbled together in about a fortnight in a September / October, was not good enough to withstand the injuries we’ve suffered. However team selections and tactics with the personnel at his disposal of late are firmly at his door.
We are still well placed to be in the mix for promotion and to my mind he’s entitled to have one more transfer window to see if he can change our fortunes. I’m sure it won’t be for the want of trying and don’t forget Thomas has said this is a 5 to 8 year, not an 8 MONTH plan, to become an established Premiership Club.
Aside from the problems at the back (not helped by having 2 CBs out) and lack of firepower upfront (although both Washington and Aneke have scored a few) it's the awful midfield that has annoyed me most - I can't recall the last time he started the same 4 for 2 games and when I see the lineup I have no idea who is supposed to be playing where and it seems the players have no idea either! We have absolutely no width which not only means less options to get the ball forward into space but also puts undue pressure on the full backs when defending.
It's like we have 4 central mids all trying to play in the same position with the wrong players supposedly out wide eg. Morgan on left rather than Maatsen. Bowyer bangs on about midfielders needing to get in the box and score but the one time that happened recently against the Wombles it was due to Gunther pushing on getting behind the full back and putting decent balls into to the box.
A lot has been said about a lack of pace but you don't need to be a Doughty to create chances - we need quicker thinking, movement into space and crisp forward passing rather than sideways, backwards and then long ball. Powell's midfield of Green, Stephens, Holland's and Jackson didn't have much pace but they knew what their roles were and played with quicker feet and more attacking enterprise - with the likes of Maddison, Williams, Morgan available for selection we should be doing far better in midfield and if you get the midfield playing well the whole team improves.
Form broke down for the season so far. Obviously it’s not been great recently, but still see there’s enough signs with early on in season that there’s no need to panic in the first week of January.
5 games - 6 points (16th place) 10 games - 13 points (16th place) 15 games - 28 points (4th place) 19 games - 32 points (5th place)
Absolutely staggered how willingly trigger happy people are. Embarrassing given how fawning most supporters were of him up to a few weeks ago. Football has got so short-termism it’s unreal.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins 4 draws 3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.
Comments
This all reminds me of the last season of Chris Powell, another manager who regularly played players out of position with uniformly poor results towards the end of his Charlton time. We don't have a great squad, even by the mediocre standards of league 1, but we are setting out as if we are anchored in a relegation fight, and week after miserable week, we play out the same tired jaded football.
We had a real boost in the second half against Shrewsbury, but went straight back to our frightened selves immediately afterwards. The January window will be irrelevant unless Bowyer changes his mentality, but there is no evidence he will, more of a bunker mentality that one day the fear tactics will net us a win. They might but they won't get us enough for a play off spot.
Sorry Lee, the fat lady is singing now.
I desperately hope things come together and he's still manager next season when we all return to The Valley, but atm being optimistic isn't easy.
Of course losing the center halves isn't great but we weren't playing well when they were in the team either.
Obviously you can't blame Bowyer for getting relegated, even without the ESI situation, staying up would have been a massive achievement. But how many times in 2020 did we play well?
I ask that because in 2019, even with a U21 side, well played well even when we didn't win. We even played well in games we lost.
When your playing badly and losing people look on things more critically, even retrospectively. Bizarre team selection, strange substitutions, publicly slagging players off, freezing players out etc all gets forgotten when your winning.
If you look back the signs were there before the Covid break. It's not an overnight issue.
Since around the mid point of last season this mentality has taken over Bowyer, a lack of a "plan B" when the main man is out, a sort of "well it's not gonna plan out how I wanted, so just don't lose" as soon as we lost the pace of Doughty and Smyth on the left that's pretty much how it's been this season.
Picking the odd player out of position for tactical reasons sure it happens, but 4 players is too many especially when you have ones better suited to the formation, or even, better players suited to a better formation you can play.
Midfield diamond, 3CB, 433. Three formations that Bowyer has used a lot the first 2 being his original go to before the change this season to 433.
Amos
Williams
Amos
Amos
Gilbey Pratley JFC
Amos
I know which of these I prefer the look of...
Would we have won, maybe maybe not, but we would have looked better as we did once we changed yesterday.
And no, I don't think playing Oshilaja is going to send us to the top of the table or stop us conceding, but it'll give us better balance than playing an aging midfielder there, especially one that's been pretty kamikaze the last few games.
As I say, it's arguable a very tenuous comparison, but at the end of the day 'People are People' and are motivated by positivity and encouragement.
Edit Shrewsbury and put in Wimbledon.
That was the game, we should've had the boost, after scoring four 2nd half goals.
A good leader, of course, is adaptable. They are able to adopt a leadership style that suits a certain 'situation'. Yes, they will have a preferred or intrinsic style of leadership, but being able to utilise a variety of styles on the leadership spectrum is the sign of a good leader. It's very difficult to do, especially if you are naturally suited to a style that sits at either end of the spectrum.
There are a lot of unanswered questions re team selection at the moment,and also the togetherness which was there a short while ago seems to have gone.Madison ,in my opinion should have started ,he could have got a load of early crosses in,which could have made a difference ,as it is ,other than corners,I do not remember one decent cross yesterday which was asking to be attacked .
But he deserves criticism, his team selection yesterday was insane, his reluctance to play creative flair players is a problem, and there were rumours from a poster on here that a senior player said he does zero tactical work. It doesn't sound like the happiest of camps.
But i do hate it when people say 'well who could do a better job'. There are tons of managers out there, and many would be more than happy to work for an enthusiastic owner of a club based in London.
Look at Sheffield Wednesday last week, 'the club is a shit show', 'who can do better than Pulis', 'we're as good as relegated now'. Caretaker boss wins 2 out of 2 with the same squad.
Personally if i was Sandgaard, i'd be speaking to Bowyer today, trying to get his thoughts on the team selection (square pegs in round holes) and why he thinks things have gone so wrong, but also giving him a polite warning that i've invested over 10m and i don't expect to be stuck in the middle of league one, so the results and the performances had better improve. If things haven't improved by the end of January (we have 6 matches in that time, 4 of which are at home), then it'll be time for TS to make a call before it's too late and the season is gone.
Ok, he's not a great striker but lack of creativity from the rest of the team is making him look a lot worse.
Time to recall Davison? In the few games he's played he's looked to me as good as anyone else we have at the moment and he offers the youthful enthusiasm we are currently lacking. May spur on the others to greater things?
We weren't playing well when we were winning. Everyone accepted that, it's a scratch team, they haven't had time to jell, they haven't had time on the training ground etc etc.
Well the more time they have on the training ground they have the worse they get. The more puzzling the team selections are.
If its a blip, who is your player of 2020? Tricky isn't it. You could probably have a short list of 5 or 6 for 2019.
When I was in the RAF, in particular, and as I progressed through the ranks, my 'comfortable' and natural leadership style was always very democratic and consultative (altruistic). However, I encountered numerous situations (on 'ops', incidents, etc) where I really had to stretch myself in the short-term and adopt a more autocratic and task focused approach. I had no choice. I simply had to fight my natural default setting.
I am (obviously) very similar as a person in everyday life, but have learnt to adapt accordingly (through experiences, training and a will to want to change). For me, the challenge for a leader is understanding and knowing when to redress the balance. As I said earlier, people are people, we run on emotion. A well motivated and 'loved' person (sense of belonging; high self-esteem) will be motivated to perform.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins
4 draws
3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.
And yes we're 6th but Ipswich, Sunderland and Accrington can all go above us as they have games in hand.
I’m very happy with 6th place on 3rd January.
We can all take losing if the team tries their collective best. We can all take losing if the manager tries something different, it doesn't work and he puts his hands up to it. Neither of these 2 things are happening at the moment. To a man we all said the same thing when the team was announced. No-one was surprised when we lost. I firmly believe that TS will give LB this season, but we wont be making the play-offs if LB continues playing players out of position or leaving game changes on the bench.
As a an aside, we might find clubs refusing to send their youngsters to us on loan if we start playing them out of position (Maatsen), fail to play them (Levitt) or generally start to f**k up their careers. Bowyers mantra of "we always improve players" is now getting laughable.
This ^^^ all the wailing and gnashing of teeth isn’t going to serve any purpose other than to get it off your chest but each to their own. Thomas will pull the trigger as and when he’s ready. A baying mob won’t change that.
I’ve seen managers come and go over the last six decades, so I’d like to think I have a bit of past experience to call upon. Bowyer is now showing a lot of traits of someone who is under pressure to turn things round and has adopted a siege mentality of ‘it’s my way or the highway’. He has been in the game for 30 years, a winner, an England international, played at the highest level and under some top managers. He has an abundance of football knowledge far greater than us mere mortals.
Some people have short memories, his dedication to the cause when this club was on its knees under the shysters should never be forgotten. Or that against the odds he took us into the play offs, after Gobinson bailed out and got us promoted the following season.
So he’s still in credit for me but the clock is ticking down for him he can’t live on past glories forever. Clearly the bulk of the squad which was cobbled together in about a fortnight in a September / October, was not good enough to withstand the injuries we’ve suffered. However team selections and tactics with the personnel at his disposal of late are firmly at his door.
We are still well placed to be in the mix for promotion and to my mind he’s entitled to have one more transfer window to see if he can change our fortunes. I’m sure it won’t be for the want of trying and don’t forget Thomas has said this is a 5 to 8 year, not an 8 MONTH plan, to become an established Premiership Club.
It's like we have 4 central mids all trying to play in the same position with the wrong players supposedly out wide eg. Morgan on left rather than Maatsen. Bowyer bangs on about midfielders needing to get in the box and score but the one time that happened recently against the Wombles it was due to Gunther pushing on getting behind the full back and putting decent balls into to the box.
A lot has been said about a lack of pace but you don't need to be a Doughty to create chances - we need quicker thinking, movement into space and crisp forward passing rather than sideways, backwards and then long ball. Powell's midfield of Green, Stephens, Holland's and Jackson didn't have much pace but they knew what their roles were and played with quicker feet and more attacking enterprise - with the likes of Maddison, Williams, Morgan available for selection we should be doing far better in midfield and if you get the midfield playing well the whole team improves.
10 games - 13 points (16th place)
15 games - 28 points (4th place)
19 games - 32 points (5th place)