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Star Wars - The Rise Of Skywalker

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  • A late of mine is obsessed, to the point of lunacy with star wars, walking into his flat is like that scene from I'm Alan Patridge when he met his stalker. Annoyingly he gets a massive amount of tail as well. I'm digressing

    I wasnt impressed with TLJ at all, I cant pretend to be the biggest star wars fan in the world but i do like the films, I didnt like the scattered nature of the film it felt like 3 different films going on and I wasnt able to see anything like enough of the new characters to care about them apart from Rey who I think Daisy Ridley plays wonderfully. Chewbacca doesn't even speak, he gggrrraaarrgghh's and he gets the best lines. Luke should have been used better and I agree I thought the director was indulging himself a bit. 

    My pal ripped it apart, really got offended by how much he didnt like it. What he did like was the fact that anyone can be a jedi or have the force, the fighting with the red guards (I loved this too). 

    The point about my mate was, nobody seems to hate star wars films as much as star wars fans 
  • Missed It said:
    There was a trilogy storyline.  George Lucas wrote it.  After Disney bought Lucasfilm, despite all their cheap talk about respecting the legacy of Star Wars, they binned it.  It's my understanding that Abrams also wrote treatments for the second and third films.  It is utterly beyond me how Disney could spend $4 billion on Lucasfilm and then treat their intellectual property investment with such slapdash, incompetent disregard.   They had a plan. They threw it away.  They had another plan.  They threw that away too, letting one director indulge his ego by "subverting the audience 's expectations" and killing stone dead every story lead Abrams left in place.  Right now they have nothing.  Lucasfilm went back to Abrams with nothing but a release date.  No plot, no story, nothing.  Now he has to unfuck this half-arsed game of Consequences Lucasfilm have foisted on loyal Star Wars fans.  I don't see how he can save it.

    As for bringing back Emperor Palpatine, it's just a creatively bankrupt decision.  They have to shoehorn in a proper villain now because Rian Johnson killed off Snoke with zero explanation of how and why that character existed in the first place.  It also takes another giant shit on Luke Skywalker's legacy.  Luke redeemed Vader and together they defeated Palpatine.  That story is done, wrapped up and all the character's story motivations are paid off.  Except none of that will count any more.  Palpatine is alive, Luke lost after all and now he's dead, killed by Rian Johnson on a whim in the editing room.

    I'm OK with the fact that people enjoyed The Last Jedi, to each their own, but that doesn't make it a good film.  The Last Jedi is not a good film.  As somebody once said, "Search your feelings, you know it to be true"   
          
    Sounds like Roland taught them everything he knows...!!! 
  • JiMMy 85 said:
    Ok yes - Lucas had an outline that they binned. There’s no reason to an assume that was going to be a better story though.

    And given that RJ was visiting the TFA set to talk to JJ about his storyline I think it’s a stretch to imply that they abandoned his story too. To me, it sounds like you don’t like TLJ so you’re finding ways to give RJ a kicking. 

    And it’s also a bit much to call it a ‘creatively bankrupt’ move to bring Palps back when you’ve got absolutely no idea of what context he’ll be involved. I respect your dislike of a film you’ve seen, but it’s ludicrous to moan about a film that hasn’t even been made yet. 

    And its it’s also a little ironic that you’ve complained about the dumping of Lucas’s plans, when JJ has just admitted Lucas helped him with the story outline on the new film - and it seems likely Lucas was behind the Palps idea!

    I think TLJ is an excellent, grown-up Star Wars movie. The third best in the franchise. Saying stuff like “killed Luke on a whim” is utter nonsense. I think RJ would have worked incredibly hard on the script and thought deeply about the story decisions. Again, not liking them is fine. But dismissing them because you don’t like them undermines your argument. 

    Personally, I think RJ struggled to give Finn a plot line. What he came up with made perfect narrative sense in regards to spreading the word of the resistance, revealing the grey areas of the war machine business and so on. I just think the execution of the subplot didn’t quite work because Finn is a shitty character to write (I wish he’d let him sacrifice himself). It bothers me, but I won’t claim RJ wrote it on the back of a beer mat in a pub. 

    Those are my feelings. I know them to be true. 



    My point regarding dismissing the Lucas or Abrams trilogy plotlines was not to pass judgement on the quality of those stories, the prequel trilogy proved that Lucas is not infallible, but to Disney's cavalier and incompetent treatment of the valuable intellectual property.  Lucasfilm and Disney have chucked out any plan they had and thanks to The Last Jedi are stuck in story cul-de-sac.  They are left with one shot, episode 9, to make it everything all right again.  Basically, it has to be the best Star Wars movie ever made to fix this mess.

    I appreciate that "creatively bankrupt" might seem intemperate language, but what has been done to Star Wars and these characters that I've loved for 40 years makes me angry, so I'll stand by it.  Palpatine's story was told, finished, end of.  His death symbolised the victory of the Rebellion over the Empire and completed Luke's redemption of his father.  Bringing him back smells of desperate retconning, to save a third act with no antagonist to overcome.

    I don't think it's ludicrous to have an opinion on a film that hasn't been released, any more than it is to have an opinion on a football match that hasn't been played yet.  If I see it, and that's a big if at the moment, and it turns out great I'll be the first one to say it was great.  Trust me, there is nothing I want more in this world than good Star Wars movies.   

    As for killing Luke Skywalker off, I've seen the interview with Rian Johnson and Mark Hamill.  The scene was in the script and filmed, but Johnson says himself that the decision to actually go with killing Luke was only finally made in the editing suite, and it would have just as easy to keep him alive.  The death of a galactic hero and cultural icon of 40 years should be integral to the plot, a huge sacrifice for a huge pay off.  Not something you decide on when the film's nearly finished and that could go either way.  To me, it typifies Johnson's casual disregard for the characters and the loyal Star Wars fans.

    It's a shame we disagree.  I always enjoy your posts on movies and TV, you know your stuff.  You must see something in The Last Jedi that I really don't.  To me, there were so many bad character and story choices, it's almost as if Luke and Leia are impostors in their own film.  Leia is sidelined and pointless with no influence on events, they cut so much of her performance from TLJ that there is enough for her to appear in Episode 9.  Luke is in Force Awakens for less than a minute and in The Last Jedi we learn he tried to murder his own nephew in his sleep because he thought he'd turned to the dark side.  The same Luke Skywalker who risked everything to save his father from the dark side?  Johnson is just tone deaf to what these characters are.  Mark Hamill says much the same thing, and who would know Luke Skywalker better than him?   


  • Missed It said:
    JiMMy 85 said:
    Ok yes - Lucas had an outline that they binned. There’s no reason to an assume that was going to be a better story though.

    And given that RJ was visiting the TFA set to talk to JJ about his storyline I think it’s a stretch to imply that they abandoned his story too. To me, it sounds like you don’t like TLJ so you’re finding ways to give RJ a kicking. 

    And it’s also a bit much to call it a ‘creatively bankrupt’ move to bring Palps back when you’ve got absolutely no idea of what context he’ll be involved. I respect your dislike of a film you’ve seen, but it’s ludicrous to moan about a film that hasn’t even been made yet. 

    And its it’s also a little ironic that you’ve complained about the dumping of Lucas’s plans, when JJ has just admitted Lucas helped him with the story outline on the new film - and it seems likely Lucas was behind the Palps idea!

    I think TLJ is an excellent, grown-up Star Wars movie. The third best in the franchise. Saying stuff like “killed Luke on a whim” is utter nonsense. I think RJ would have worked incredibly hard on the script and thought deeply about the story decisions. Again, not liking them is fine. But dismissing them because you don’t like them undermines your argument. 

    Personally, I think RJ struggled to give Finn a plot line. What he came up with made perfect narrative sense in regards to spreading the word of the resistance, revealing the grey areas of the war machine business and so on. I just think the execution of the subplot didn’t quite work because Finn is a shitty character to write (I wish he’d let him sacrifice himself). It bothers me, but I won’t claim RJ wrote it on the back of a beer mat in a pub. 

    Those are my feelings. I know them to be true. 



    My point regarding dismissing the Lucas or Abrams trilogy plotlines was not to pass judgement on the quality of those stories, the prequel trilogy proved that Lucas is not infallible, but to Disney's cavalier and incompetent treatment of the valuable intellectual property.  Lucasfilm and Disney have chucked out any plan they had and thanks to The Last Jedi are stuck in story cul-de-sac.  They are left with one shot, episode 9, to make it everything all right again.  Basically, it has to be the best Star Wars movie ever made to fix this mess.

    I appreciate that "creatively bankrupt" might seem intemperate language, but what has been done to Star Wars and these characters that I've loved for 40 years makes me angry, so I'll stand by it.  Palpatine's story was told, finished, end of.  His death symbolised the victory of the Rebellion over the Empire and completed Luke's redemption of his father.  Bringing him back smells of desperate retconning, to save a third act with no antagonist to overcome.

    I don't think it's ludicrous to have an opinion on a film that hasn't been released, any more than it is to have an opinion on a football match that hasn't been played yet.  If I see it, and that's a big if at the moment, and it turns out great I'll be the first one to say it was great.  Trust me, there is nothing I want more in this world than good Star Wars movies.   

    As for killing Luke Skywalker off, I've seen the interview with Rian Johnson and Mark Hamill.  The scene was in the script and filmed, but Johnson says himself that the decision to actually go with killing Luke was only finally made in the editing suite, and it would have just as easy to keep him alive.  The death of a galactic hero and cultural icon of 40 years should be integral to the plot, a huge sacrifice for a huge pay off.  Not something you decide on when the film's nearly finished and that could go either way.  To me, it typifies Johnson's casual disregard for the characters and the loyal Star Wars fans.

    It's a shame we disagree.  I always enjoy your posts on movies and TV, you know your stuff.  You must see something in The Last Jedi that I really don't.  To me, there were so many bad character and story choices, it's almost as if Luke and Leia are impostors in their own film.  Leia is sidelined and pointless with no influence on events, they cut so much of her performance from TLJ that there is enough for her to appear in Episode 9.  Luke is in Force Awakens for less than a minute and in The Last Jedi we learn he tried to murder his own nephew in his sleep because he thought he'd turned to the dark side.  The same Luke Skywalker who risked everything to save his father from the dark side?  Johnson is just tone deaf to what these characters are.  Mark Hamill says much the same thing, and who would know Luke Skywalker better than him?   


    Hell even Hammill has said that he doesnt see the link between this version of Luke and the one he created back in the originals i.e. How can that possibly be the case when it should be the same story
  • Sadly the trailers have been better than the films since the first three.
    I was thinking the same. They get you all excited, which to be fair is their job, then there’s a massive letdown with the film itself. 
  • Wow. Great trailer. 
  • It is a complete mess now. I really bought into it for the first three films. 
  • Conversely I love most of TLJ and got really hyped by this trailer. Can’t wait to see how Palps plays a part. 
  • I'm torn by this.
    The last film was just an embarrassment. 
    I'll resent going to watch the next one at the cinema, but I'll go because if what star wars was, not what it has become.
    Why do you feel embarrassed?
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  • PopIcon said:
    I'm torn by this.
    The last film was just an embarrassment. 
    I'll resent going to watch the next one at the cinema, but I'll go because if what star wars was, not what it has become.
    Why do you feel embarrassed?
    I think he means the people who made it should feel embarrassed.

    The only thing I got from that trailer was that she's got the coolest lightsaber.
  • Must admit, the trailer doesn't show much and from experience that's because there isn't much to show.
    This final episode has been bereft somewhat due to the original director getting the boot. They couldn't go back to Rian whatshisname because he made a pig's ear of the last jedi so the hurriedly got JJ Abrams back. Add to all this Disney's two gigantic left feet getting involved and I think we may well have one highly expensive Turkey on our hands.

    Hope I'm wrong.
  • I initially thought that was a fan made trailer when I first started watching it
  • Meh, JJ banking off nostalgia again. I bet the double lightsaber thing will be a vision she has of herself if she went to the dark side. Kinda like Luke going into the cave and seeing Vader. 

    Last jedi was full of plot holes and was like I was watching a film made by some one who had seen the other Star Wars movies with the sound off. 
  • edited August 2019
    Last Jedi was average, not half as bad as people seem to think now. This looks good, think JJ has more of a feel for the originals, but tying together the previous 9 (I include Rogue One in that) will be a challenge, and Disney might want some space for more off shoots.  
  • edited August 2019
    Rothko said:
    Last Jedi was average, not half as bad as people seem to think now. This looks good, think JJ has more of a feel for the originals, but tying together the previous 9 (I include Rogue One in that) will be a challenge, and Disney might want some space for more off shoots.  
    I think its going to be virtually impossible for them to even tie this trilogy into something that makes sense

    Star Wars has always had simplicity about it; the original was about Luke's transition to being a Jedi whilst having a clear story arc for Darth Vadar - The prequel trilogy was simply about how Anakin became Vadar - I dont even know what this trilogy is about, everytime there seems to be a clear sense of direction its suddenly chopped again
  • Well at least The Mandalorian looks nails and could be one of the great tv series born out of the new era between Disney and Lucasfilm.
  • PopIcon said:
    I'm torn by this.
    The last film was just an embarrassment. 
    I'll resent going to watch the next one at the cinema, but I'll go because if what star wars was, not what it has become.
    Why do you feel embarrassed?
    I think he means the people who made it should feel embarrassed.

    The only thing I got from that trailer was that she's got the coolest lightsaber.
    Well that's a stupid thing to say. Sure, it wasnt the best Star Wars film, but I can think of at least two films that are worse.
    I thought some of the photography was superb and actually some of the best from any star wars film.

    I think both the Force Awakens and Return of The Jedi are lesser films than Revenge of the Sith. Most people will disagree, but that's the way it is.

  • I reckon Rey does turn, Kylo gets turned away by Palpatine as he senses care or what have ya in Kylo, Ren rescues Rey back from the darkside, that's why she was in the sith attire cause she was face to face with Kylo.

    Also fits in with the title, Rise of the Skywalker, Kylo takes a fall and rises to be good? 

    Obviously if not my guess it's probably just a vision.

    Or Rey joins the darkside with Kylo and kill everyone, sadly ever after
  • I ended up seeing the last film - I found it massively overlong,. to the point where a comfy cinema seat made me writhe (could have been the film). Apart from the bit where Luke Skywalker emerged from a fire storm of rockets, lasers and other associated stuff unscathed and brushing a seck of dust off his shoulder, it was really a drag from start to finish, and felt like the plots of a couple of films squeezed into one and then allowed to expand.
    This film is even longer. When it comes out on cable!
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  • I was going to say that everyone should just calm down because they're only films, but then I remembered my three year tantrum caused by Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings.

  • Looks terrific 
  • I do enjoy all the hand-wringing about Last Jedi. It's interesting to see people have such a visceral response to it and I wonder how similar the prequel trilogy's responses would have been if the internet and social media was so prevalent back then. I actually really liked TLJ in a lot of places, though it wasn't a perfect film by any stretch. I like the direction Rian Johnson took it in; not everything has to be a chosen one, not every character has to come from somewhere important and you can still tell a good story without an overblown sense of prophecy. You could really feel a Game of Thrones influence in how he subverted expectations, which might not be to everyone's taste, but it allowed for a reset after The Force Awakens (which I also enjoyed) was nearly a remake of A New Hope and gave scope for new direction.
    I also really liked what they did with the Jedi, because as of the prequel movies the Jedi have always been insane, and it was never dealt with. They're meant to be a bunch of higher-plane space monks, but they're also sort of universe police, but also they're the go-to generals in a mega army. They're super peaceful dudes who preach patience, peace and abstinence but they're also bantering about the place lopping people's heads off and enforcing the rule of the central government. What are they?? If they're being played straight then they're bonkers, and if they're deliberately being written as a broken order who failed to live up to their own ideals then that's never dealt with once in the narrative. The reason the Jedi worked so well in the original trilogy was they were just vague enough to work; they didn't exist anymore. There were two evil ones who fell away from the teachings, there was an old man who tried to teach Luke to be less up for war and more considered, and there was a super-powerful gremlin who hid himself away from the world to think about his power rather than use it. That was it, everything else was up to you to fill in yourself. The prequels gave you a version of a Jedi order that made them into a state-run religious military order and took away all the mystery of the Jedi, and the problem is without the mystery the Jedi are kind of dumb. By having Luke turn his back on the teachings that keep getting everyone killed they can reestablish the Force as something mysterious and allow more to be discovered in future films, and move away from all the questions the prequels raised about the Jedi, those questions mostly being '...what?'. Lucas' biggest mistake was filling in all the gaps that his original trilogy made rather than allowing them to continue being whatever people wanted them to be. It's no surprise that the best Star Wars stuff outside the originals is based in the Old Republic, which takes from the best parts of Star Wars and puts it in a completely different time. Hopefully by the end of this trilogy they will have cast off the last of the old stuff and they'll be able to just write something new.
    excellent review, and I agree. But the film was too zarking long.
  • I liked Last Jedi more than most I think - Poe and Finn's storylines didn't quite work but I thought the Kylo Ren and Rey bits were very good.

    I'm looking forward to the next one - I know a lot see Kylo Ren as a bit weak and stroppy etc but I think Adam Driver is nailing the conflicted/angry thing that Hayden Christensen couldn't, it works for me.
  • Massive difference between driver and Christensen is that driver is a seriously good actor. Christensen was just a weird bloke Lucas plucked from nowhere because of “his eyes”
  • Love Star Wars...always have.

    The older ones are better of course as they set the standard but the more recent ones are very good I think. TLJ was imo a tad rushed but overall I liked it alot! Wish there was more backstory on Snoke.

    Agree with some comments that Rian Johnson was a bit too much of the "my way or highway" stance. 

    Best one in recent times is Rogue one. Great film. 

    Liked the trailer though. Def a force vision though concerning Rey.
  • edited August 2019
    PopIcon said:
    I'm torn by this.
    The last film was just an embarrassment. 
    I'll resent going to watch the next one at the cinema, but I'll go because if what star wars was, not what it has become.
    Why do you feel embarrassed?
    The prequels weren't great, but got better.
    When Disney took over they made a decent job of The Force Awakens, it was an enjoyable nod to the original.

    Then Roogue One, the first Disney spin off was slow to start, but was one the best star wars films ever made. This set up big hopes for The Last Jedi.

    The start was painfully unfunny. That girl they brought in as Finns girlfriend offered nothing. They decided Leah could fly through space. Snoke was killed off too early without fully telling his story. The whole casino thing was pointless and Luke's story was all wrong.

    There were several points in the film that were setting up really good plots, but they were never followed through and the whole star wars universe was undermined

    It felt that i was listening to a singer refusing to admit his best days were gone, convinced his new material was better than the classics that made his name. 

    The film was just embarrassing to watch, the hardest part was the prospect of a further film. Star wars shouldn't evoke these emotions.

    I've only watched it once and didn't bother with Solo.














    This has touched a  nerve.
    Not to mention Mark Hamill has said himself that he didnt like TLJ; basically sees the Luke Skywalker he played in it as a different character to the person he played in the originals as believed that the character would never have behaved that way

    Says it all when the actors are coming out with comments like that

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2017/12/22/mark-hamill-admits-doesnt-like-luke-skywalker-last-jedi/
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