Interesting that the white ball batting coach is Graham Thorpe, whereas the Test batting coach is Mark Ramprakash.
While you can't pin it all on the coaches, Thorpe was a lot more successful at international level than Ramps
Just a complete joke that Ramprakash is involved in our Test coaching team, sums it up.
Why? Struggled at test level yes but there were a hell of a lot of issues going on behind the scenes then. But over a 20 year period he was without a doubt the greatest batsman in the county game both technically and in terms of runs scored. The man is a legend.
Interesting that the white ball batting coach is Graham Thorpe, whereas the Test batting coach is Mark Ramprakash.
While you can't pin it all on the coaches, Thorpe was a lot more successful at international level than Ramps
Just a complete joke that Ramprakash is involved in our Test coaching team, sums it up.
Why? Struggled at test level yes but there were a hell of a lot of issues going on behind the scenes then. But over a 20 year period he was without a doubt the greatest batsman in the county game both technically and in terms of runs scored. The man is a legend.
Why???? It's bloody obvious! He couldn't hack it at Test level so how on earth can he bring anything to the Test squad? Yes of course he was an exceptional batsman, the last player ever to score one hundred 100's (and always will be). England's Test batsmen don't need batting coaching they need mental coaching by someone who could do it in test cricket. He was of course one of only two English qualified batsmen in the 90's/2000's to average over 50.00 in 1st Class cricket. Who was the other? Graham Hick! I rest my case.
I would agree. Mentally Ramps wasn't strong enough, which is why he never translated his talent to the Test stage. Some players perform much better in Test cricket (e.g. Gower or Vaughan), whereas others seem to thrive better in the county scene
Interesting that the white ball batting coach is Graham Thorpe, whereas the Test batting coach is Mark Ramprakash.
While you can't pin it all on the coaches, Thorpe was a lot more successful at international level than Ramps
Just a complete joke that Ramprakash is involved in our Test coaching team, sums it up.
Why? Struggled at test level yes but there were a hell of a lot of issues going on behind the scenes then. But over a 20 year period he was without a doubt the greatest batsman in the county game both technically and in terms of runs scored. The man is a legend.
In 2009 as we approached the decisive Ashes Test at the Oval we needed someone to bat 3. KP was out injured and Bopara simply wasn't delivering. That was a lot of speculation in the media. Would it be Trott or Key or maybe bring back Ramprakash who had been scoring county runs for fun. Thankfully we picked Trott and the rest is history.
At that time I wrote this article: Ramps? No Thanks
If I needed someone to bat for my life in a meaningless 2nd Division County Championship match on a good wicket such as The Oval, I would have no hesitation in choosing Mark Ramprakash. Again if I had to choose a professional sportsman to dance for my life in a World Championship at Blackpool, I would choose Ramps. Indeed he would also be first choice for me as “The Nice Down to Earth” celebrity of the year award.
However if I, as indeed my country does, had to select someone to make a major contribution with the bat next week in the 5th final and decisive Ashes Test, Mark would not even be in my top 10.
People are often tagged with flaws, some fair some not. Ramps has always been seen as an underachiever at the highest level, in my opinion this is a fair accusation. There is no doubting his technique and skill as a batsmen. I have seen him play quite beautifully many times in county cricket. One particular innings at Canterbury springs to mind, when as a young man he dispatched not only the Kentish Men but also the Men of Kent to all parts of The St. Lawrence ground.
For many years he was one of only two English qualified batsmen to average over 50 in 1st Class cricket. This probably says more about our domestic game than anything. A comfort zone blessed with very average bowlers and good wickets. Somewhere where players with the natural ability of Ramps can score hundred after hundred after hundred – and he does. It is so different from the county championship of old where not only did England’s elite play for a fair proportion, but some of the best bowlers in the world were also flinging them down. Holding, Roberts, Marshall, Garner, Croft, Daniel, Clarke, Hadlee, Rice, Procter, Imran, Kapil, Le Roux, Alderman, Akram, Wagar….the list goes on. They played full seasons too, not just the odd match in May and September as the world stars do these days before they fly off to all parts for a 1 Test series’ or ODI tournaments in oil rich states.
I’m not trying to knock Ramps’ record, of course he can only play, and score heavily against what is served up at him. If that happens to be Dutch international Vim Van Kolpak and his 19 cousins and brother–in-laws’ spread all over the counties then that is not his fault. To date he has scored 108 centuries, no mean feat. Will another player, let alone Englishman ever get to join that exclusive club of Centurions? I am just saying that the gulf between our county game and Test cricket is as big today as it’s ever been-bigger. Huge.
Who was the other batsman to average over 50? Well of course it was Graeme Hick or Enigma II. However Hick is another story, I am discussing Ramprakash.
I have recently heard his supporters say he is completely different now, far less tense, enjoying his batting with a relaxed attitude at the crease. Nothing like the nervous, edgy young man we used to see fighting his way to 29 and invariably no further. Maybe that is because he hasn’t played Test cricket for 7 years!
I did see him struggle too. I was in Trinidad ’94. England had played well for 3 ¾ days and although at one point it looked as if they’d need no more than 100 to win Chandrapul made sure it was nearer 200. So as the final hour or so started I turned to my friend and said I’d take 50-2 at the close. Well after one ball it was 0-1 and the rest is Ambrose folklore. I’m not blaming Ramps for this collapse but his weakness in a cauldron shone like the sun does in a clear blue Caribbean sky.
Ambrose had removed Atherton first ball LBW (my, Athers was a bad starter), and next in was Ramps. Well I have never seen anyone walk so slowly to the wicket. I’ve noticed this year that England’s batsmen have made the effort to cross on the field in the time honoured way. If Ramps had been any slower he’d have been crossing paths with the ground staff as they pulled on the covers an hour later! I can only imagine that the only reason Ambrose didn’t appeal under the 2 minute rule was that he fancied getting all ten, he didn’t of course. Nor did he get Ramps. Ramps got himself.
The atmosphere was electric as Ambrose ran in for the first ball, it went up 10 levels just about every ball or at least every wicket- which was nearly every ball! A cycle track circles Queens Park Oval and the local peanut seller had grabbed our Union Jack from the perimeter fence and was running round the track with it as Ramps made his way out.
I felt sorry for him; he looked a complete bag of nerves. Nervous but not scared I hasten to add, Jack Russell who came in at No.8 looked scared. His 4th ball, he clipped to fine leg and for some reason, maybe the noise level drowned out communication between him and Stewart, came back for a crazy 2nd. He was easily run out and was back in the pavilion a tad quicker than he came out of it!
One incident you may say. Everyone failed that innings you may say. But it is Ramps image that sticks with me more than other from those 15 years ago. More than my memory of trying to get our flag back (which we did) and just slightly more vivid than my minds picture of a middle aged England fan, in blazer, Panama hat and MCC tie standing in front of the England dressing room at the end of play that evening, jabbing his umbrella towards the hiding players and shouting through a foaming mouth “USELESS, USELESS, USELESS”!
Contd. I remember a year later when after not originally being selected he joined another disastrous Ashes tour of Australia, late on due to many injuries. He played in the last Test at Perth and scored well in both innings. There was no expectation of him and the series was already lost. It did however get him back in favour for the summer of ’95 and the visit of the West Indies.
In his defence I guess that Ramprakash did have to try and forge his international career, nearly all of them, against a fairly rampant West Indian side. However there is no room for sentiment in international sport. Incidentally guess which other England batsmen made his debut with Ramps in ’91 against Ambrose, Walsh and Co? Yes of course GA Hick.
Anyway in early ’95 the spread betting firms were excited about Ramprakash’s renaissance, but not as excited as my friend and I were when were we able to “Sell” his total runs for the series at 330. I’d never done a spread bet before and hardly any since but to me it was a “No Brainer”. Scores of 4&18 in the first Test and a “pair” at Lords sent him back to county cricket for the rest of the season and allowed me to pick up the best part of £1,000. I took no pleasure in seeing him fail but as I see myself as a pretty good judge of Test player it was money for old rope.
You could hardly accuse the selectors of showing no faith in him though. He made the squad to South Africa that winter but after failing in his first two innings with low scores he was cleaned up by Brian McMillian second ball in his third and final knock in Tests until the last home test in the summer of 1997. Where? The Oval. Against? Australia.
Result? England won!
As I said earlier, there is no room for sentiment in international sport. It was another dead rubber as they invariably were in those days and the result was more down to Caddick, Tuffnel, and the draw of the Qantas 1st Class lounge at Heathrow than any influence by Ramps. A reasonable tour of the West Indies followed, a maiden Test century and an ok summer at home. Nothing spectacular but ok. It was the same for a few years, steady but not sparkling progress. Just like his bully of a buddy Hick, Ramps could not transfer his obvious gifts from county to Test cricket. He didn’t make the 1999 tour of South Africa. He did however return for England in 2000 against his old friends from the Caribbean. Business as usual sadly and 4 innings yielded a mere 20 runs.
In 2001 against the still all conquering Aussies he hit a lovely 130 odd at……yes of course The Oval! But this rubber wasn’t just dead, it was buried too.
After an indifferent tour of Pakistan and New Zealand, England, well certainly their boss at the time, Duncan Fletcher gave up on the enigma that is Mark Ravin Ramprakash. There you have it. An eleven year Test career of perennial underachievement.
I recall Mike Atherton talking about Ramps under his captaincy. He revealed that apart form the nerves, Ramps was often looking for an excuse for his failings. If he was carded 5 or 6 and failed it was too low for him and he felt he was left with the tail. He was asked to bat 3 for a while but then again after a poor run complained to Athers that he was exposed to the new ball too early for his liking.
So will he get the call? You never know with Geoff Miller. He said no one was ruled out, but only today he ruled out Marcus Trescothick! I’m sure Miller would love to have both in his team, with Vaughn too. However I reckon being the canny lad he is, Dusty will know he’ll get less flack from the media if Trott or Key fail than if Ramps plays and yet again comes up short. You knew with Fletcher though, you knew he got his way with Graveney and you knew he’d never call Ramps back, probably through sheer bloody-mindedness than anything else mind.
There is no doubting Mark Ramprakash is one of, if not the most technically correct, gifted batsman of his generation. There is also no doubt he could not deliver the goods at the ultimate level during the time he played for England. Ok, Australia’s current attack is hardly a top world class combination but it’s not just about actually playing the bowlers; you have to play against everything else too. The sledging, the crowd, the media, the expectation – everything.
I keep hearing how his record against Australia is so much better than it is against other teams or his overall record. Well as I have explained earlier, most of his good showings against the Aussies were in no pressure dead matches. Hardly the scenario we are faced with today. The question is can he deliver now?
I personally do not think so. If he couldn’t take the pressure then, why should he be able to now? If he is named in Sundays squad his house will besieged by our blood thirsty hacks, desperate for a quote or even a sign of nerves. We will have digs from former players, old and not so old, English and Aussie. All jumping on the bandwagon.
The 5th Test match at The Brit Oval next week is England’s biggest for 4 years. The hype is massive already. Massive enough for KP to feel so left out that he had to release some sort, any sort of news about his precious self. Just to remind everyone he is still around. It’s only going to get bigger as we get closer. The sort of pressure Ramps has proved time and time again that he just can’t handle.
A lot was made of his long wait to go from 99 to 100 1st Class centuries. Rightly so. It showed to me and Geoff Boycott incidently, that the flaw is still there. The negative noises made brought a very passionate response from his Father knocking all that accused Ramps of bottling it. He got there of course, but it took some time.
I have nothing but admiration for Ramps as a county cricketer and also, from his public persona, a man too, but I do not think he has the temperament to play hard, competitive, Test match cricket. Not in the past, not now, not ever.
I bet the Aussies wish they had never agreed to this series! It probably seemed like a good idea at the time, get some experience of English conditions...
We have never seen 1 day cricket like this ever...
Might as well make the most of it rather than looking in the mirror
A lot of people think this is a farce, as its all too easy - let's not forget that we are playing the Aussies eh?
Our batting is brutal - how often have we said that about an England team?
The women's team is similar, watching the highlights of their T20 win yesterday, I was really impressed by the ball striking power of our players, despite Tammy Beaumont being tiny!
4 down, a 3rd wicket for Moeen and another neat stumping for Buttler, been impressed with his keeping in this series, being able to stump people is a sign of a good keeper
Comments
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2007/sep/24/cricket.surreyccc
In 2009 as we approached the decisive Ashes Test at the Oval we needed someone to bat 3. KP was out injured and Bopara simply wasn't delivering. That was a lot of speculation in the media. Would it be Trott or Key or maybe bring back Ramprakash who had been scoring county runs for fun. Thankfully we picked Trott and the rest is history.
At that time I wrote this article:
Ramps? No Thanks
If I needed someone to bat for my life in a meaningless 2nd Division County Championship match on a good wicket such as The Oval, I would have no hesitation in choosing Mark Ramprakash. Again if I had to choose a professional sportsman to dance for my life in a World Championship at Blackpool, I would choose Ramps. Indeed he would also be first choice for me as “The Nice Down to Earth” celebrity of the year award.
However if I, as indeed my country does, had to select someone to make a major contribution with the bat next week in the 5th final and decisive Ashes Test, Mark would not even be in my top 10.
People are often tagged with flaws, some fair some not. Ramps has always been seen as an underachiever at the highest level, in my opinion this is a fair accusation. There is no doubting his technique and skill as a batsmen. I have seen him play quite beautifully many times in county cricket. One particular innings at Canterbury springs to mind, when as a young man he dispatched not only the Kentish Men but also the Men of Kent to all parts of The St. Lawrence ground.
For many years he was one of only two English qualified batsmen to average over 50 in 1st Class cricket. This probably says more about our domestic game than anything. A comfort zone blessed with very average bowlers and good wickets. Somewhere where players with the natural ability of Ramps can score hundred after hundred after hundred – and he does. It is so different from the county championship of old where not only did England’s elite play for a fair proportion, but some of the best bowlers in the world were also flinging them down. Holding, Roberts, Marshall, Garner, Croft, Daniel, Clarke, Hadlee, Rice, Procter, Imran, Kapil, Le Roux, Alderman, Akram, Wagar….the list goes on. They played full seasons too, not just the odd match in May and September as the world stars do these days before they fly off to all parts for a 1 Test series’ or ODI tournaments in oil rich states.
I’m not trying to knock Ramps’ record, of course he can only play, and score heavily against what is served up at him. If that happens to be Dutch international Vim Van Kolpak and his 19 cousins and brother–in-laws’ spread all over the counties then that is not his fault. To date he has scored 108 centuries, no mean feat. Will another player, let alone Englishman ever get to join that exclusive club of Centurions? I am just saying that the gulf between our county game and Test cricket is as big today as it’s ever been-bigger. Huge.
Who was the other batsman to average over 50? Well of course it was Graeme Hick or Enigma II. However Hick is another story, I am discussing Ramprakash.
I have recently heard his supporters say he is completely different now, far less tense, enjoying his batting with a relaxed attitude at the crease. Nothing like the nervous, edgy young man we used to see fighting his way to 29 and invariably no further. Maybe that is because he hasn’t played Test cricket for 7 years!
I did see him struggle too. I was in Trinidad ’94. England had played well for 3 ¾ days and although at one point it looked as if they’d need no more than 100 to win Chandrapul made sure it was nearer 200. So as the final hour or so started I turned to my friend and said I’d take 50-2 at the close. Well after one ball it was 0-1 and the rest is Ambrose folklore. I’m not blaming Ramps for this collapse but his weakness in a cauldron shone like the sun does in a clear blue Caribbean sky.
Ambrose had removed Atherton first ball LBW (my, Athers was a bad starter), and next in was Ramps. Well I have never seen anyone walk so slowly to the wicket. I’ve noticed this year that England’s batsmen have made the effort to cross on the field in the time honoured way. If Ramps had been any slower he’d have been crossing paths with the ground staff as they pulled on the covers an hour later! I can only imagine that the only reason Ambrose didn’t appeal under the 2 minute rule was that he fancied getting all ten, he didn’t of course. Nor did he get Ramps. Ramps got himself.
The atmosphere was electric as Ambrose ran in for the first ball, it went up 10 levels just about every ball or at least every wicket- which was nearly every ball! A cycle track circles Queens Park Oval and the local peanut seller had grabbed our Union Jack from the perimeter fence and was running round the track with it as Ramps made his way out.
I felt sorry for him; he looked a complete bag of nerves. Nervous but not scared I hasten to add, Jack Russell who came in at No.8 looked scared. His 4th ball, he clipped to fine leg and for some reason, maybe the noise level drowned out communication between him and Stewart, came back for a crazy 2nd. He was easily run out and was back in the pavilion a tad quicker than he came out of it!
One incident you may say. Everyone failed that innings you may say. But it is Ramps image that sticks with me more than other from those 15 years ago. More than my memory of trying to get our flag back (which we did) and just slightly more vivid than my minds picture of a middle aged England fan, in blazer, Panama hat and MCC tie standing in front of the England dressing room at the end of play that evening, jabbing his umbrella towards the hiding players and shouting through a foaming mouth “USELESS, USELESS, USELESS”!
Contd.
I remember a year later when after not originally being selected he joined another disastrous Ashes tour of Australia, late on due to many injuries. He played in the last Test at Perth and scored well in both innings. There was no expectation of him and the series was already lost. It did however get him back in favour for the summer of ’95 and the visit of the West Indies.
In his defence I guess that Ramprakash did have to try and forge his international career, nearly all of them, against a fairly rampant West Indian side. However there is no room for sentiment in international sport. Incidentally guess which other England batsmen made his debut with Ramps in ’91 against Ambrose, Walsh and Co? Yes of course GA Hick.
Anyway in early ’95 the spread betting firms were excited about Ramprakash’s renaissance, but not as excited as my friend and I were when were we able to “Sell” his total runs for the series at 330. I’d never done a spread bet before and hardly any since but to me it was a “No Brainer”. Scores of 4&18 in the first Test and a “pair” at Lords sent him back to county cricket for the rest of the season and allowed me to pick up the best part of £1,000. I took no pleasure in seeing him fail but as I see myself as a pretty good judge of Test player it was money for old rope.
You could hardly accuse the selectors of showing no faith in him though. He made the squad to South Africa that winter but after failing in his first two innings with low scores he was cleaned up by Brian McMillian second ball in his third and final knock in Tests until the last home test in the summer of 1997. Where? The Oval. Against? Australia.
Result? England won!
As I said earlier, there is no room for sentiment in international sport. It was another dead rubber as they invariably were in those days and the result was more down to Caddick, Tuffnel, and the draw of the Qantas 1st Class lounge at Heathrow than any influence by Ramps. A reasonable tour of the West Indies followed, a maiden Test century and an ok summer at home. Nothing spectacular but ok. It was the same for a few years, steady but not sparkling progress. Just like his bully of a buddy Hick, Ramps could not transfer his obvious gifts from county to Test cricket. He didn’t make the 1999 tour of South Africa. He did however return for England in 2000 against his old friends from the Caribbean. Business as usual sadly and 4 innings yielded a mere 20 runs.
In 2001 against the still all conquering Aussies he hit a lovely 130 odd at……yes of course The Oval! But this rubber wasn’t just dead, it was buried too.
After an indifferent tour of Pakistan and New Zealand, England, well certainly their boss at the time, Duncan Fletcher gave up on the enigma that is Mark Ravin Ramprakash. There you have it. An eleven year Test career of perennial underachievement.
I recall Mike Atherton talking about Ramps under his captaincy. He revealed that apart form the nerves, Ramps was often looking for an excuse for his failings. If he was carded 5 or 6 and failed it was too low for him and he felt he was left with the tail. He was asked to bat 3 for a while but then again after a poor run complained to Athers that he was exposed to the new ball too early for his liking.
So will he get the call? You never know with Geoff Miller. He said no one was ruled out, but only today he ruled out Marcus Trescothick! I’m sure Miller would love to have both in his team, with Vaughn too. However I reckon being the canny lad he is, Dusty will know he’ll get less flack from the media if Trott or Key fail than if Ramps plays and yet again comes up short. You knew with Fletcher though, you knew he got his way with Graveney and you knew he’d never call Ramps back, probably through sheer bloody-mindedness than anything else mind.
There is no doubting Mark Ramprakash is one of, if not the most technically correct, gifted batsman of his generation. There is also no doubt he could not deliver the goods at the ultimate level during the time he played for England. Ok, Australia’s current attack is hardly a top world class combination but it’s not just about actually playing the bowlers; you have to play against everything else too. The sledging, the crowd, the media, the expectation – everything.
I keep hearing how his record against Australia is so much better than it is against other teams or his overall record. Well as I have explained earlier, most of his good showings against the Aussies were in no pressure dead matches. Hardly the scenario we are faced with today. The question is can he deliver now?
I personally do not think so. If he couldn’t take the pressure then, why should he be able to now? If he is named in Sundays squad his house will besieged by our blood thirsty hacks, desperate for a quote or even a sign of nerves. We will have digs from former players, old and not so old, English and Aussie. All jumping on the bandwagon.
The 5th Test match at The Brit Oval next week is England’s biggest for 4 years. The hype is massive already. Massive enough for KP to feel so left out that he had to release some sort, any sort of news about his precious self. Just to remind everyone he is still around. It’s only going to get bigger as we get closer. The sort of pressure Ramps has proved time and time again that he just can’t handle.
A lot was made of his long wait to go from 99 to 100 1st Class centuries. Rightly so. It showed to me and Geoff Boycott incidently, that the flaw is still there. The negative noises made brought a very passionate response from his Father knocking all that accused Ramps of bottling it. He got there of course, but it took some time.
I have nothing but admiration for Ramps as a county cricketer and also, from his public persona, a man too, but I do not think he has the temperament to play hard, competitive, Test match cricket. Not in the past, not now, not ever.
In other news we are beating Australia 4-0 ....
But wouldn't want to be losing 4-0 now?
Might as well make the most of it rather than looking in the mirror
A lot of people think this is a farce, as its all too easy - let's not forget that we are playing the Aussies eh?
Our batting is brutal - how often have we said that about an England team?
What an innings from Buttler, such maturity to go with the talent