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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • Good read, thanks for sharing @Rothko. The Spectator also produces a 10-15 minute podcast each day called Coffee Shots, worth a listen on your commute.
  • Depressing read, that.
  • Rizzo said:

    I'm curious whether anyone here thinks any of the political parties are capable of delivering a Brexit that will satisfy those who voted to leave and not completely fuck over this country for years or decades to come? Personally I don't think such a deal even exists!

    Agreed, which is why I changed my mind in the summer and decided we should remain.
    I believe hardly anyone expected we would be in this complete mess 2.5 years later.

    I admit that many thought Brexit would prove extremely difficult to achieve, as did I.
    But never for one second did I think it would be an almost impossible task.

    We could end this all quite quickly by voting to remain, although the desire to remain on CL does not necessarily seem to reflect the feeling in the UK. I've listened to plenty of people this week that voted remain, but now think we should brexit (whatever that is), because it is the democratic thing to do.
  • Thanks for posting that @Rothko . As good a summary of a stupid situation as I have read.
  • Missed It said:

    @MuttleyCAFC

    Simple straight question. Have you seen or even heard Richard Burgon in "action"?

    For your information, he is the Shadow Justice Minister. He was hand-picked by Corbyn.

    Yvette Cooper is a back-bencher.

    It’s tragic isn’t it. We do have to take into consideration though that with one or two exceptions there is no one of any calibre willing to serve in Corbyns shadow cabinet. Doesn’t really inspire confidence does it.

    Ironically, Corbyn, who is considering when to call a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, lost a vote of confidence in his own leadership by 172 to 40 and yet rather than resign he chose to hide behind the skirts of the membership. What you're left with is 40 Corbyn apologists to make up the opposition front bench. The Labour party is exactly the jokeshop it deserves to be.
    It is a vote of confidence in the ability of the government being able to pass legislation not leadership. While this has nothing to do with Brexit and I agree he has been ineffectual, I can't believe this myth persists that fringes of the Labour party elected him. The labour party is the largest political in europe, the numbers simply do not stack up that he was hiding behind the fringes. He increased his share of the vote when put to the membership. Not to mention that he has never faced a credible candidate from within the party.

    He lost that vote before he led them in to the election, when the PLP didn't believe he could do that well. A lot of those 172 were made to eat their own words on election night. He tried to be inclusive in his first two shadow cabinets, but they all resigned. If the Labour front bench is devoid of those talents it is because they choose to act in a fashion that was counter to the direction the membership had chosen twice.

    You kid yourself if you think May would have done anything different if the situation was reversed. She has more then plenty of occasions to do the honourable thing. The difference between her and Corbyn is if she loses a vote of no confidence by the MPs she is not allowed to stand in a members vote. After all the Tories don't like leaving things up to the membership, much like the last leadership election.

    Ironically, I find myself in complete agreement with them. It is a truly terrifying thought that the result of May leaving is the fate of the country will be decided by a few thousand members of Tory party. The very same people who they were trying to placate when they got us in to this mess.
    I look at it the other way. He doesn't have to work with the membership every day in parliament. By choosing to remain in post, he has left those MPs that have no confidence in him with no option but to sit on the back benches and effectively rendered the opposition front bench useless.

    We hear every day how 17 million people got it wrong when they voted in the referendum. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour members are barking up the wrong tree too.
  • bobmunro said:

    Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    @MuttleyCAFC

    Simple straight question. Have you seen or even heard Richard Burgon in "action"?

    For your information, he is the Shadow Justice Minister. He was hand-picked by Corbyn.

    Yvette Cooper is a back-bencher.

    It’s tragic isn’t it. We do have to take into consideration though that with one or two exceptions there is no one of any calibre willing to serve in Corbyns shadow cabinet. Doesn’t really inspire confidence does it.

    Ironically, Corbyn, who is considering when to call a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, lost a vote of confidence in his own leadership by 172 to 40 and yet rather than resign he chose to hide behind the skirts of the membership. What you're left with is 40 Corbyn apologists to make up the opposition front bench. The Labour party is exactly the jokeshop it deserves to be.
    It is a vote of confidence in the ability of the government being able to pass legislation not leadership. While this has nothing to do with Brexit and I agree he has been ineffectual, I can't believe this myth persists that fringes of the Labour party elected him. The labour party is the largest political in europe, the numbers simply do not stack up that he was hiding behind the fringes. He increased his share of the vote when put to the membership. Not to mention that he has never faced a credible candidate from within the party.

    He lost that vote before he led them in to the election, when the PLP didn't believe he could do that well. A lot of those 172 were made to eat their own words on election night. He tried to be inclusive in his first two shadow cabinets, but they all resigned. If the Labour front bench is devoid of those talents it is because they choose to act in a fashion that was counter to the direction the membership had chosen twice.

    You kid yourself if you think May would have done anything different if the situation was reversed. She has more then plenty of occasions to do the honourable thing. The difference between her and Corbyn is if she loses a vote of no confidence by the MPs she is not allowed to stand in a members vote. After all the Tories don't like leaving things up to the membership, much like the last leadership election.

    Ironically, I find myself in complete agreement with them. It is a truly terrifying thought that the result of May leaving is the fate of the country will be decided by a few thousand members of Tory party. The very same people who they were trying to placate when they got us in to this mess.
    I look at it the other way. He doesn't have to work with the membership every day in parliament. By choosing to remain in post, he has left those MPs that have no confidence in him with no option but to sit on the back benches and effectively rendered the opposition front bench useless.

    We hear every day how 17 million people got it wrong when they voted in the referendum. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour members are barking up the wrong tree too.
    Spot on - the same policies with a different leader (e.g. Chuka) would be a far more effective opposition and likely to win a GE.
    Would like to see Andy Burnham back from local politics.
  • edited December 2018
    Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    @MuttleyCAFC

    Simple straight question. Have you seen or even heard Richard Burgon in "action"?

    For your information, he is the Shadow Justice Minister. He was hand-picked by Corbyn.

    Yvette Cooper is a back-bencher.

    It’s tragic isn’t it. We do have to take into consideration though that with one or two exceptions there is no one of any calibre willing to serve in Corbyns shadow cabinet. Doesn’t really inspire confidence does it.

    Ironically, Corbyn, who is considering when to call a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, lost a vote of confidence in his own leadership by 172 to 40 and yet rather than resign he chose to hide behind the skirts of the membership. What you're left with is 40 Corbyn apologists to make up the opposition front bench. The Labour party is exactly the jokeshop it deserves to be.
    It is a vote of confidence in the ability of the government being able to pass legislation not leadership. While this has nothing to do with Brexit and I agree he has been ineffectual, I can't believe this myth persists that fringes of the Labour party elected him. The labour party is the largest political in europe, the numbers simply do not stack up that he was hiding behind the fringes. He increased his share of the vote when put to the membership. Not to mention that he has never faced a credible candidate from within the party.

    He lost that vote before he led them in to the election, when the PLP didn't believe he could do that well. A lot of those 172 were made to eat their own words on election night. He tried to be inclusive in his first two shadow cabinets, but they all resigned. If the Labour front bench is devoid of those talents it is because they choose to act in a fashion that was counter to the direction the membership had chosen twice.

    You kid yourself if you think May would have done anything different if the situation was reversed. She has more then plenty of occasions to do the honourable thing. The difference between her and Corbyn is if she loses a vote of no confidence by the MPs she is not allowed to stand in a members vote. After all the Tories don't like leaving things up to the membership, much like the last leadership election.

    Ironically, I find myself in complete agreement with them. It is a truly terrifying thought that the result of May leaving is the fate of the country will be decided by a few thousand members of Tory party. The very same people who they were trying to placate when they got us in to this mess.
    I look at it the other way. He doesn't have to work with the membership every day in parliament. By choosing to remain in post, he has left those MPs that have no confidence in him with no option but to sit on the back benches and effectively rendered the opposition front bench useless.

    We hear every day how 17 million people got it wrong when they voted in the referendum. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour members are barking up the wrong tree too.
    If the PLP forced him out in favour of a bloke they’d prefer, that is a massive slap in the face of people who voted him into the leadership twice.

    I’d rather vote Lib Dem (or Green like I did in 2015) than for a Labour Party that has Chuka forced in through the back door.
  • No chance I would think
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  • His name is spelt Chuka Umunna loll
  • Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    @MuttleyCAFC

    Simple straight question. Have you seen or even heard Richard Burgon in "action"?

    For your information, he is the Shadow Justice Minister. He was hand-picked by Corbyn.

    Yvette Cooper is a back-bencher.

    It’s tragic isn’t it. We do have to take into consideration though that with one or two exceptions there is no one of any calibre willing to serve in Corbyns shadow cabinet. Doesn’t really inspire confidence does it.

    Ironically, Corbyn, who is considering when to call a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, lost a vote of confidence in his own leadership by 172 to 40 and yet rather than resign he chose to hide behind the skirts of the membership. What you're left with is 40 Corbyn apologists to make up the opposition front bench. The Labour party is exactly the jokeshop it deserves to be.
    It is a vote of confidence in the ability of the government being able to pass legislation not leadership. While this has nothing to do with Brexit and I agree he has been ineffectual, I can't believe this myth persists that fringes of the Labour party elected him. The labour party is the largest political in europe, the numbers simply do not stack up that he was hiding behind the fringes. He increased his share of the vote when put to the membership. Not to mention that he has never faced a credible candidate from within the party.

    He lost that vote before he led them in to the election, when the PLP didn't believe he could do that well. A lot of those 172 were made to eat their own words on election night. He tried to be inclusive in his first two shadow cabinets, but they all resigned. If the Labour front bench is devoid of those talents it is because they choose to act in a fashion that was counter to the direction the membership had chosen twice.

    You kid yourself if you think May would have done anything different if the situation was reversed. She has more then plenty of occasions to do the honourable thing. The difference between her and Corbyn is if she loses a vote of no confidence by the MPs she is not allowed to stand in a members vote. After all the Tories don't like leaving things up to the membership, much like the last leadership election.

    Ironically, I find myself in complete agreement with them. It is a truly terrifying thought that the result of May leaving is the fate of the country will be decided by a few thousand members of Tory party. The very same people who they were trying to placate when they got us in to this mess.
    I look at it the other way. He doesn't have to work with the membership every day in parliament. By choosing to remain in post, he has left those MPs that have no confidence in him with no option but to sit on the back benches and effectively rendered the opposition front bench useless.

    We hear every day how 17 million people got it wrong when they voted in the referendum. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour members are barking up the wrong tree too.
    If the PLP forced him out in favour of a bloke they’d prefer, that is a massive slap in the face of people who voted him into the leadership twice.

    I’d rather vote Lib Dem (or Green like I did in 2015) than for a Labour Party that has Chuka forced in through the back door.
    This is the pig in a poke that the Labour party bought for themselves when they reformed their leadership election procedure. They thought they were reducing the power of the unions but instead left themselves vulnerable to Momentum.

    To my mind, the parliamentary party should elect the parliamentary leader. They're the ones who have to work effectively together as a team. Difficult to do when the team didn't select the captain and most of them think the captain is useless.
  • What a fantastically apt and piss taking piece by Fintan O’Toole.
  • edited December 2018



    Nina Lamparski

    @ninaism
    #BREAKING: 'No way to change' Brexit deal, says Merkel after May visit #Brexit @AFP

    20
    3:43 PM - Dec 11, 2018



  • Nina Lamparski

    @ninaism
    #BREAKING: 'No way to change' Brexit deal, says Merkel after May visit #Brexit @AFP

    20
    3:43 PM - Dec 11, 2018
    Maybe she should just come home and have the vote then.



  • Nina Lamparski

    @ninaism
    #BREAKING: 'No way to change' Brexit deal, says Merkel after May visit #Brexit @AFP

    20
    3:43 PM - Dec 11, 2018
    I bet Merkel is laughing so much inside she is having trouble containing herself. The UK was despised at the best of times in European circles, now we have given them all the ammo they need.
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  • edited December 2018
    I wonder if that was the “assurance” the silly old cow May was hoping for. It becomes more farcical by the minute.



  • Nina Lamparski

    @ninaism
    #BREAKING: 'No way to change' Brexit deal, says Merkel after May visit #Brexit @AFP

    20
    3:43 PM - Dec 11, 2018
    I bet Merkel is laughing so much inside she is having trouble containing herself. The UK was despised at the best of times in European circles, now we have given them all the ammo they need.
    Oh really? What are these "European circles" you speak of?

  • Prior to the last referendum we had a Prime Minister who didn’t really understand how the EU works go over to Germany to try and get concessions from Merkel before coming back to London with tail between legs. Maybe this just a sort of ritual humiliation we have to go through prior to EU referendums?
  • edited December 2018
    bobmunro said:

    Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    @MuttleyCAFC

    Simple straight question. Have you seen or even heard Richard Burgon in "action"?

    For your information, he is the Shadow Justice Minister. He was hand-picked by Corbyn.

    Yvette Cooper is a back-bencher.

    It’s tragic isn’t it. We do have to take into consideration though that with one or two exceptions there is no one of any calibre willing to serve in Corbyns shadow cabinet. Doesn’t really inspire confidence does it.

    Ironically, Corbyn, who is considering when to call a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, lost a vote of confidence in his own leadership by 172 to 40 and yet rather than resign he chose to hide behind the skirts of the membership. What you're left with is 40 Corbyn apologists to make up the opposition front bench. The Labour party is exactly the jokeshop it deserves to be.
    It is a vote of confidence in the ability of the government being able to pass legislation not leadership. While this has nothing to do with Brexit and I agree he has been ineffectual, I can't believe this myth persists that fringes of the Labour party elected him. The labour party is the largest political in europe, the numbers simply do not stack up that he was hiding behind the fringes. He increased his share of the vote when put to the membership. Not to mention that he has never faced a credible candidate from within the party.

    He lost that vote before he led them in to the election, when the PLP didn't believe he could do that well. A lot of those 172 were made to eat their own words on election night. He tried to be inclusive in his first two shadow cabinets, but they all resigned. If the Labour front bench is devoid of those talents it is because they choose to act in a fashion that was counter to the direction the membership had chosen twice.

    You kid yourself if you think May would have done anything different if the situation was reversed. She has more then plenty of occasions to do the honourable thing. The difference between her and Corbyn is if she loses a vote of no confidence by the MPs she is not allowed to stand in a members vote. After all the Tories don't like leaving things up to the membership, much like the last leadership election.

    Ironically, I find myself in complete agreement with them. It is a truly terrifying thought that the result of May leaving is the fate of the country will be decided by a few thousand members of Tory party. The very same people who they were trying to placate when they got us in to this mess.
    I look at it the other way. He doesn't have to work with the membership every day in parliament. By choosing to remain in post, he has left those MPs that have no confidence in him with no option but to sit on the back benches and effectively rendered the opposition front bench useless.

    We hear every day how 17 million people got it wrong when they voted in the referendum. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour members are barking up the wrong tree too.
    Spot on - the same policies with a different leader (e.g. Chuka) would be a far more effective opposition and likely to win a GE.

    You are starting to sound like a brexiteer! You can't have it both ways. While I don't think many would disagree with you, where was this credible candidate offering the same platform? Because I only saw a series of identikit plastic former special advisors and fecking Owen Jones. If he was the great hope then the Labour party is doomed.

    Personally I'd love to see Stramer or Miliband offering a social democratic platform but I don't even know if they want it or what either really stand for.

    Saying all that the leader of the opposition can only cause pressure when it comes to Brexit. All the people who think a different leader will somehow find a solution to this shit show when they are not in government are mistaken in my opinion. We essentially face three choices, hard Brexit, vassel status or cancel article 50. How do you find a way out when the other two options are unpalatable to the majority of everyone else?
  • Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    @MuttleyCAFC

    Simple straight question. Have you seen or even heard Richard Burgon in "action"?

    For your information, he is the Shadow Justice Minister. He was hand-picked by Corbyn.

    Yvette Cooper is a back-bencher.



    Ironically, Corbyn, who is considering when to call a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, lost a vote of confidence in his own leadership by 172 to 40 and yet rather than resign he chose to hide behind the skirts of the membership. What you're left with is 40 Corbyn apologists to make up the opposition front bench. The Labour party is exactly the jokeshop it deserves to be.

    You kid yourself if you think May would have done anything different if the situation was reversed. She has more then plenty of occasions to do the honourable thing. The difference between her and Corbyn is if she loses a vote of no confidence by the MPs she is not allowed to stand in a members vote. After all the Tories don't like leaving things up to the membership, much like the last leadership election.

    Ironically, I find myself in complete agreement with them. It is a truly terrifying thought that the result of May leaving is the fate of the country will be decided by a few thousand members of Tory party. The very same people who they were trying to placate when they got us in to this mess.
    I look at it the other way. He doesn't have to work with the membership every day in parliament. By choosing to remain in post, he has left those MPs that have no confidence in him with no option but to sit on the back benches and effectively rendered the opposition front bench useless.

    We hear every day how 17 million people got it wrong when they voted in the referendum. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour members are barking up the wrong tree too.
    If the PLP forced him out in favour of a bloke they’d prefer, that is a massive slap in the face of people who voted him into the leadership twice.

    I’d rather vote Lib Dem (or Green like I did in 2015) than for a Labour Party that has Chuka forced in through the back door.
    This is the pig in a poke that the Labour party bought for themselves when they reformed their leadership election procedure. They thought they were reducing the power of the unions but instead left themselves vulnerable to Momentum.

    To my mind, the parliamentary party should elect the parliamentary leader. They're the ones who have to work effectively together as a team. Difficult to do when the team didn't select the captain and most of them think the captain
    bobmunro said:

    Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    @MuttleyCAFC

    Simple straight question. Have you seen or even heard Richard Burgon in "action"?

    For your information, he is the Shadow Justice Minister. He was hand-picked by Corbyn.

    Yvette Cooper is a back-bencher.

    It’s tragic isn’t it. We do have to take into consideration though that with one or two exceptions there is no one of any calibre willing to serve in Corbyns shadow cabinet. Doesn’t really inspire confidence does it.

    Ironically, Corbyn, who is considering when to call a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, lost a vote of confidence in his own leadership by 172 to 40 and yet rather than resign he chose to hide behind the skirts of the membership. What you're left with is 40 Corbyn apologists to make up the opposition front bench. The Labour party is exactly the jokeshop it deserves to be.
    It is a vote of confidence in the ability of the government being able to pass legislation not leadership. While this has nothing to do with Brexit and I agree he has been ineffectual, I can't believe this myth persists that fringes of the Labour party elected him. The labour party is the largest political in europe, the numbers simply do not stack up that he was hiding behind the fringes. He increased his share of the vote when put to the membership. Not to mention that he has never faced a credible candidate from within the party.

    He lost that vote before he led them in to the election, when the PLP didn't believe he could do that well. A lot of those 172 were made to eat their own words on election night. He tried to be inclusive in his first two shadow cabinets, but they all resigned. If the Labour front bench is devoid of those talents it is because they choose to act in a fashion that was counter to the direction the membership had chosen twice.

    You kid yourself if you think May would have done anything different if the situation was reversed. She has more then plenty of occasions to do the honourable thing. The difference between her and Corbyn is if she loses a vote of no confidence by the MPs she is not allowed to stand in a members vote. After all the Tories don't like leaving things up to the membership, much like the last leadership election.

    Ironically, I find myself in complete agreement with them. It is a truly terrifying thought that the result of May leaving is the fate of the country will be decided by a few thousand members of Tory party. The very same people who they were trying to placate when they got us in to this mess.
    I look at it the other way. He doesn't have to work with the membership every day in parliament. By choosing to remain in post, he has left those MPs that have no confidence in him with no option but to sit on the back benches and effectively rendered the opposition front bench useless.

    We hear every day how 17 million people got it wrong when they voted in the referendum. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour members are barking up the wrong tree too.
    Spot on - the same policies with a different leader (e.g. Chuka) would be a far more effective opposition and likely to win a GE.
    You are starting to sound like a brexiteer! You can't have it both ways. While I don't think many would disagree with you, where was this credible candidate offering the same platform? Because I only saw a series of identikit plastic former special advisors and fecking Owen Jones. If he was the great hope then the Labour party is doomed.

    Personally I'd love to see Stramer or Miliband offering a social democratic platform but I don't even know if they want it or what either really stand for.

    Saying all that the leader of the opposition can only cause pressure when it comes to Brexit. All the people who think a different leader will somehow find a solution to this shit show when they are not in government are mistaken in my opinion. We essentially face three choices, hard Brexit, vassel status or cancel article 50. How do you find a way out when the other two options are unpalatable to the majority of everyone else?
    To be honest, I wasn't really talking about Brexit per se, just initially commenting on the brassneck of Corbyn trying to organise a vote of no confidence, having lost one and ignored the result himself.
  • Any predictions on how this might be looked back on in say 20 years? Or where the UK will find itself at that time? Hard to imagine it will be seen as anything other than a complete mess but it should fascinate the historians.



  • Nina Lamparski

    @ninaism
    #BREAKING: 'No way to change' Brexit deal, says Merkel after May visit #Brexit @AFP

    20
    3:43 PM - Dec 11, 2018
    I bet Merkel is laughing so much inside she is having trouble containing herself. The UK was despised at the best of times in European circles, now we have given them all the ammo they need.
    Oh really? What are these "European circles" you speak of?

    Eurovision Song Contest :smile:
  • Ok it’s not Brexit ... but it is amusing and we need something to smile about.

    https://youtu.be/QFces_jzeYc
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!