Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
I agree with so much of what you've said there that I've given it a like, but I do think we should perhaps give Chippy a break. After an earlier contretemps he decided to refrain from posting on this thred. He has stuck by that, I don't think we can deny him a little light lolling now and again.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Rather than changing the subject, Just look back over the last few pages. It's not difficult.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
Can you explain why you consider my question to be “vile”. And how it could be considered racist?
Look back at my comments over the past few days and you will see why. It's not difficult.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
The brexit referendum result ( if most 'interpretations' of that result are to be believed) conflicts with the Good Friday Agreement. Another referendum or peoples vote won't resolve that fundamental, unless it kind of happens accidentally and there is a winning option to remain as we were. A second referendum is meaningless unless an explicit detailed method of dealing with the GFA is declared by anybody promoting leave.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Overall we are in this place due to having no back-up plan BEFORE the first referendum, that is purely down to Cameron and co. We complained here and on other forums of some of our previous managers not having a Plan B for playing a football game, this (referendum) was FAR FAR FAR, more important than that, yet it was never considered.....unbelievable Jeff (as Kammy would say!!).
It strikes me there are certain parallels, less tragic but real, with the Bush-led invasion of Iraq. After it was clear Sadam was beaten, I kept wondering when the USA would unveil its plan to build a stable country in the aftermath. Then it became clear they didn't have a plan at all, apart from trying to impose a political solution of a Western-style democracy out of nothing. It's far easier for politicians to say let's destroy something than to produce a realistic plan for what follows, but it doesn't stop them leading us into these messes, anyway.
When asked for a definition of these elites who have the power and influence to cancel Brexit you posted a link citing the fact most university staff back Remain, the implication being the country's university lecturers were behind some conspiracy to stop us leaving the EU.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
May is under relentless pressure in Parliament over the backstop arrangement in her latest document. The Irish issue remains central to this whole brexit thing.
From the above framework:
139. Both Parties affirm that the achievements, benefits and commitments of the peace process in Northern Ireland will remain of paramount importance to peace, stability and reconciliation. They agree that the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement reached on 10 April 1998 by the United Kingdom Government, the Irish Government and the other participants in the multi-party negotiations (the “1998 Agreement”) must be protected in all its parts, and that this extends to the practical application of the 1998 Agreement on the island of Ireland and to the totality of the relationships set out in the 1998 Agreement.
Well quite. The 1998 agreement is at odds with the existence of a border, which is what brexit demands. The backstop dance, and indeed the maxfax aspiration are details that cloud the fundamental reality. The Belfast Agreement goes, or Brexit goes. The two can't coexist. To suggest they can is to promise that cats and dogs can mate and produce offspring.
I wouldn’t worry ,, Brexit won’t happen anyway so it’s a moot point.
Hilarious. Like many who voted Brexit, part of you now really wishes that to be true. Did you happen to watch Newsnight tonight? it's going to happen. There is no pathway to stop it in time.
And then you will have to own it, on here. Good luck with that.
You post such good posts normally, but every now and then, you put up an inane comment.
I explained previously my reasons for thinking it will not happen ... in no way do I wish this to be true. That’s wishful thinking on your part ... ohhh don’t worry, the Brexiteers will come to their senses eventually, deep down they know they are wrong. What a load of crap!
The halfway house on offer is useless to everyone. No deal will not get through Parliament. So there will be an agreement between all parties to extend the process which will eventually end in us remaining.
The 26-pager from yesterday showed what could have been done but it’s a fantasy vision at this stage.
Missed your last point ... own it on here!
WTF do you think I’ve been doing for the last couple of years being one of a handful of people backing leave whilst receiving a multitude of insults from angry remainers ... at least you have managed to avoid sending insults.
I have never denied my views nor been afraid to back them up.
So yes ... I own my opinion and still believe it could have happened if we didn’t have a political strata whose main skill is producing soundbites.
I posted that late after a pleasant wine fuelled evening so I apologise for my choice of words. However my concern about your post remains, in the cold light of day, and that is that you seemed to be heading for Planet Southbank, where Brexit ultras who cannot accept that Brexit turns out to be a thoroughly bad idea, but see the penny droppjng with others, start to pretend that it might be reversed because of a conspiracy, and/or because even they secretly concede that it s a bad idea but have to save face. Hence "own it". I accept it is unfair to put you in either camp. Hope it stays so.
On the other hand I am certain that it will happen for the very prosaic reason that there is not enough time for any of the possible routes to it not happening, to be enacted. Which was the conclusion of all three people on Newsnight, even if as @seriously_red said, they were a bit hazy about what they expect to happen. Ian Dale gave up half way through his turn.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
I don't deny that "elites" exist" although how an elite is defined is a whole different question.
Where I think you are wrong (not lying, just IMHO wrong) that all these elites back remain.
As I have said before Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson are the epitome of a particular British elite and they are hardly remain.
As are, incidentally Cameron and Trump. May is more of an outsider than all of them. She is female, a vicars daughter and went to a comprehensive.
The flaw in your argument is that you find a group or profession (ie teachers) that the majority (not all note) voted remain. Then because you believe that elites are remain make a false step of logic in stating that they are therefore an "elite".
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
I don't deny elites exist, they just happen to be the likes of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Farage, Gove, Odey, Davis, Murdoch, Lawson, Digby Jones etc.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
Have you clearly defined 'elite' - or is it anyone who isn't 'white working class' (your words). Is it anyone who has more power than the average working person (whatever that is) because let me tell you, that aint going to change. Egalitarian, utopian bollocks.
And once you define 'elite' please provide evidence that most people who fit that 'type' oppose Brexit.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
See Fiishes answer from just now.
Here's a lie from yesterday
Cameron: 'Please Mrs Merkel, can we have some relief on free movement or anti-EU forces will keep growing in the UK Merkel: No
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
I think the heart of it is that there is a culture war going on , of which Brexit and Trump, in their different ways, are just a symptom. For example, had Cameron not called a referendum, there is little doubt that UKIP, which i do not support, would have got more and more powerful and broken through even in our distorted system.
The vitriolic and borderline racist attacks on Leavers are not really about politics in the traditional sense, but rather a belief of the moral superiority some Remainers feel over the white working class and other Leave supporters, whom they call 'stupid', 'racist' 'lowlife' etc. The middle classes in particular have always distrusted, despised and feared the working class, Brexit has given them a cause to unite over and openly share their feelings.
Whatever happens with Brexit now this will not go away, and another referendum will see it raised to new heights, I am afraid.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
See Fiishes answer from just now.
Here's a lie from yesterday
Cameron: 'Please Mrs Merkel, can we have some relief on free movement or anti-EU forces will keep growing in the UK Merkel: No
Comments
Farage is using it as a lever on yet another comeback. Must be a week since his mug was last in the papers...
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
Another referendum or peoples vote won't resolve that fundamental, unless it kind of happens accidentally and there is a winning option to remain as we were.
A second referendum is meaningless unless an explicit detailed method of dealing with the GFA is declared by anybody promoting leave.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
That's what I call piffle.
On the other hand I am certain that it will happen for the very prosaic reason that there is not enough time for any of the possible routes to it not happening, to be enacted. Which was the conclusion of all three people on Newsnight, even if as @seriously_red said, they were a bit hazy about what they expect to happen. Ian Dale gave up half way through his turn.
I'll give Southbank the benefit of the doubt.
Oh look, a bunch of lies told by Southbank only last week!
Where I think you are wrong (not lying, just IMHO wrong) that all these elites back remain.
As I have said before Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson are the epitome of a particular British elite and they are hardly remain.
As are, incidentally Cameron and Trump. May is more of an outsider than all of them. She is female, a vicars daughter and went to a comprehensive.
The flaw in your argument is that you find a group or profession (ie teachers) that the majority (not all note) voted remain. Then because you believe that elites are remain make a false step of logic in stating that they are therefore an "elite".
And once you define 'elite' please provide evidence that most people who fit that 'type' oppose Brexit.
Here's a lie from yesterday
Cameron: 'Please Mrs Merkel, can we have some relief on free movement or anti-EU forces will keep growing in the UK
Merkel: No
The vitriolic and borderline racist attacks on Leavers are not really about politics in the traditional sense, but rather a belief of the moral superiority some Remainers feel over the white working class and other Leave supporters, whom they call 'stupid', 'racist' 'lowlife' etc. The middle classes in particular have always distrusted, despised and feared the working class, Brexit has given them a cause to unite over and openly share their feelings.
Whatever happens with Brexit now this will not go away, and another referendum will see it raised to new heights, I am afraid.
Er