May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
I think the heart of it is that there is a culture war going on , of which Brexit and Trump, in their different ways, are just a symptom. For example, had Cameron not called a referendum, there is little doubt that UKIP, which i do not support, would have got more and more powerful and broken through even in our distorted system.
The vitriolic and borderline racist attacks on Leavers are not really about politics in the traditional sense, but rather a belief of the moral superiority some Remainers feel over the white working class and other Leave supporters, whom they call 'stupid', 'racist' 'lowlife' etc. The middle classes in particular have always distrusted, despised and feared the working class, Brexit has given them a cause to unite over and openly share their feelings.
Whatever happens with Brexit now this will not go away, and another referendum will see it raised to new heights, I am afraid.
There you go again - 'white working class'. What about BAME working class?
Or maybe just 'working class' comrade? Whatever working class is now, if it even exists as a 'class'.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
See Fiishes answer from just now.
Here's a lie from yesterday
Cameron: 'Please Mrs Merkel, can we have some relief on free movement or anti-EU forces will keep growing in the UK Merkel: No
and as I pointed out however snarkly, is the EU were prepared to give one, if the UK could show it was having any detrimental effect on public services, the welfare state or the stability of the country.
All Cameron could come up was some pretty flimsy example of one hospital in Suffolk, but non other, because there wasn't any evidence that immigration from the EU was causing damage to the UK economy, as it wasn't. The EU then pointed out that the rules that exist weren't being implemented anyway, so Cameron's pleas where ignored.
The EU weren't going to put FoM on hold because of whipped up fears, and 20 years of people being groomed by the Sun, Mail and Express about immigrants.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
I think the heart of it is that there is a culture war going on , of which Brexit and Trump, in their different ways, are just a symptom. For example, had Cameron not called a referendum, there is little doubt that UKIP, which i do not support, would have got more and more powerful and broken through even in our distorted system.
The vitriolic and borderline racist attacks on Leavers are not really about politics in the traditional sense, but rather a belief of the moral superiority some Remainers feel over the white working class and other Leave supporters, whom they call 'stupid', 'racist' 'lowlife' etc. The middle classes in particular have always distrusted, despised and feared the working class, Brexit has given them a cause to unite over and openly share their feelings.
Whatever happens with Brexit now this will not go away, and another referendum will see it raised to new heights, I am afraid.
And on the otherside, remainers are called "remoaners" "traitors", Enemies of the people" "losers".
I think your statement of "The middle classes in particular have always distrusted, despised and feared the working class, Brexit has given them a cause to unite over and openly share their feelings." is just wrong.
What is middle class these days? What is working class? My dad was a painter and decorator, my mum a dinner lady so I see myself as having grown up in a working class family. Am I still working class? How do you define it? Who decides? My wife is a nurse. is she middle or working class? Her wages certainly aren't "elite" and she works.
Your statement also assumes that ALL middle class people fear ALL working class people even though that are often related to, married to members of these badly defined classes.
You also make the implied assumption, again wrongly, that all middle class people voted remain and all working class people voted leave when plainly that is not true.
Please let the record show that Southbank defines the people who he disagrees with politically and continuously slanders/accuses of anti-democratic conduct along racial lines.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
I think the heart of it is that there is a culture war going on , of which Brexit and Trump, in their different ways, are just a symptom. For example, had Cameron not called a referendum, there is little doubt that UKIP, which i do not support, would have got more and more powerful and broken through even in our distorted system.
The vitriolic and borderline racist attacks on Leavers are not really about politics in the traditional sense, but rather a belief of the moral superiority some Remainers feel over the white working class and other Leave supporters, whom they call 'stupid', 'racist' 'lowlife' etc. The middle classes in particular have always distrusted, despised and feared the working class, Brexit has given them a cause to unite over and openly share their feelings.
Whatever happens with Brexit now this will not go away, and another referendum will see it raised to new heights, I am afraid.
And on the otherside, remainers are called "remoaners" "traitors", Enemies of the people" "losers".
I think your statement of "The middle classes in particular have always distrusted, despised and feared the working class, Brexit has given them a cause to unite over and openly share their feelings." is just wrong.
What is middle class these days? What is working class? My dad was a painter and decorator, my mum a dinner lady so I see myself as having grown up in a working class family. Am I still working class? How do you define it? Who decides? My wife is a nurse. is she middle or working class? Her wages certainly aren't "elite" and she works.
Your statement also assumes that ALL middle class people fear ALL working class people even though that are often related to, married to members of these badly defined classes.
You also make the implied assumption, again wrongly, that all middle class people voted remain and all working class people voted leave when plainly that is not true.
I pointed out to Southbank yesterday the post vote analysis showed zero correlation between being either being white or working class and how they voted. He conveniently ignored it because it doesn't fit in with his 'all Remainers are anti-white elites' agenda. For which he has zero evidence.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
Quietly sidelined! I did not respond to that particular point in your post because I thought it best not to repeat and therefore draw attention to such an insanely stupid comment! Only a 6 year old child who still doesn’t fully understand the concept of death and demographics could take issue with me simply stating the fact that Brexit voters are dying more quickly than Remain voters and that this is significant because we have not implemented the result yet and by the time we do implement the result the Brexit majority will consist entirely of dead people’s votes.
And I can assure you, based on the debates we have had on this thread over the last two years, I consider my moral compass, as a Remainer, vastly superior to the moral compass of most Brexit voters.
And you respond by calling my assertion insanely stupid, by inference liken me to a six year old child and finish by claiming your vast moral superiority over 17,000,000 of your fellow citizens.
I get demographics, wait 20 years and Northern Ireland would vote to unite Ireland. You're repeating a thread of remainer argument that I find particularly distasteful and disrespectful.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
Quietly sidelined! I did not respond to that particular point in your post because I thought it best not to repeat and therefore draw attention to such an insanely stupid comment! Only a 6 year old child who still doesn’t fully understand the concept of death and demographics could take issue with me simply stating the fact that Brexit voters are dying more quickly than Remain voters and that this is significant because we have not implemented the result yet and by the time we do implement the result the Brexit majority will consist entirely of dead people’s votes.
And I can assure you, based on the debates we have had on this thread over the last two years, I consider my moral compass, as a Remainer, vastly superior to the moral compass of most Brexit voters.
And you respond by calling my assertion insanely stupid, by inference liken me to a six year old child and finish by claiming your vast moral superiority over 17,000,000 of your fellow citizens.
I get demographics, wait 20 years and Northern Ireland would vote to unite Ireland. You're repeating a thread of remainer argument that I find particularly distasteful and disrespectful.
You were the one that implied remainers were losing their moral compass.
You can't complain if that argument gets vigorously rejected.
If you can't see how abrasive you are on these threads (and that's coming from me!) then I don't know how to help you
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
Quietly sidelined! I did not respond to that particular point in your post because I thought it best not to repeat and therefore draw attention to such an insanely stupid comment! Only a 6 year old child who still doesn’t fully understand the concept of death and demographics could take issue with me simply stating the fact that Brexit voters are dying more quickly than Remain voters and that this is significant because we have not implemented the result yet and by the time we do implement the result the Brexit majority will consist entirely of dead people’s votes.
And I can assure you, based on the debates we have had on this thread over the last two years, I consider my moral compass, as a Remainer, vastly superior to the moral compass of most Brexit voters.
And you respond by calling my assertion insanely stupid, by inference liken me to a six year old child and finish by claiming your vast moral superiority over 17,000,000 of your fellow citizens.
I get demographics, wait 20 years and Northern Ireland would vote to unite Ireland. You're repeating a thread of remainer argument that I find particularly distasteful and disrespectful.
You were the one that implied remainers were losing their moral compass.
You can't complain if that argument gets vigorously rejected.
Indeed, and I think it's a fair point to make. The principles that guide people in everyday life seem to fall by the wayside when discussion of politics or Brexit arise. We may talk about football, music and any other subject in a perfectly civil manner but when it comes to Brexit, some people just lose their rag - all counter arguments must be rebutted and never mind how rudely one goes about it.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
See Fiishes answer from just now.
Here's a lie from yesterday
Cameron: 'Please Mrs Merkel, can we have some relief on free movement or anti-EU forces will keep growing in the UK Merkel: No
So, David Cameron (seemingly in thrall to the common UK political view that all that had to happen was for Germany to will it and the EU would comply) tried to get Angela Merkel to agree to something which she could not actually do.
The EU had already agreed to greater UK controls, within the EU Treaties (you know, those Treaties that HMG had not fully made use of in terms of intra-EU migration).
The only way to get the changes that David Cameron said that he wanted was by Treaty change, he didn't engage in that sort of negotiation.
The way to ask was to engage with all the other member states and, like Maastricht, Lisbon, etc., seek to amend the Treaty of Rome. Any significant change to the Treaty requires the support of all the members. He didn't do that, don't claim that Angela Merkel said "no" when, at most, she would have been saying "it's not my decision".
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
See Fiishes answer from just now.
Here's a lie from yesterday
Cameron: 'Please Mrs Merkel, can we have some relief on free movement or anti-EU forces will keep growing in the UK Merkel: No
So, David Cameron (seemingly in thrall to the common UK political view that all that had to happen was for Germany to will it and the EU would comply) tried to get Angela Merkel to agree to something which she could not actually do.
The EU had already agreed to greater UK controls, within the EU Treaties (you know, those Treaties that HMG had not fully made use of in terms of intra-EU migration).
The only way to get the changes that David Cameron said that he wanted was by Treaty change, he didn't engage in that sort of negotiation.
The way to ask was to engage with all the other member states and, like Maastricht, Lisbon, etc., seek to amend the Treaty of Rome. Any significant change to the Treaty requires the support of all the members. He didn't do that, don't claim that Angela Merkel said "no" when, at most, she would have been saying "it's not my decision".
Ok, the EU said no then, same difference. My point of the light hearted post was that there never was, or could be, a real negotiation because of the disparity of power between the EU and the UK. . A point I have made since Day one. The 'negotiations' have been only to find a form of words that keeps the UK in the EU while pretending it isn't.Just a fiasco.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
Quietly sidelined! I did not respond to that particular point in your post because I thought it best not to repeat and therefore draw attention to such an insanely stupid comment! Only a 6 year old child who still doesn’t fully understand the concept of death and demographics could take issue with me simply stating the fact that Brexit voters are dying more quickly than Remain voters and that this is significant because we have not implemented the result yet and by the time we do implement the result the Brexit majority will consist entirely of dead people’s votes.
And I can assure you, based on the debates we have had on this thread over the last two years, I consider my moral compass, as a Remainer, vastly superior to the moral compass of most Brexit voters.
And you respond by calling my assertion insanely stupid, by inference liken me to a six year old child and finish by claiming your vast moral superiority over 17,000,000 of your fellow citizens.
I get demographics, wait 20 years and Northern Ireland would vote to unite Ireland. You're repeating a thread of remainer argument that I find particularly distasteful and disrespectful.
Speaking as someone whose Remain voting mother is one of those who have died in the meantime, I think it would just be best to suggest nothing more than that "the patterns of demographic change are more likely increase pro-EU/Remain support in the country".
People on both sides voted for a host of reasons in the referendum, some of which, on both sides, are unlikely to stand up to robust scrutiny, which is why the privacy of the voting booth is probably something to be welcomed. We will, all of us who voted, have reasons for believing that at least some of the opposing arguments were stupid (but even the most intellectual of us can be motivated to act for foolish reasons); some will also have been motivated by beliefs that I would hope all of us would feel are reprehensible.
I can quite happily live with people making decisions for reasons that are honest and, in my view, wrong. I am in no position to do anything other than to try to dispute, should the opportunity arise, the accuracy of their views - as they will with me. It probably won't change anything, or anyone's views, but that's life.
P.S. IMHO, if things pan out as badly as I might fear (including the DUP continuing to be the senior party in the Westminster Government, and a no deal outcome), 20 years might be pushing it in Northern Ireland, it could easily be 5 or less.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Just one 'lie' would do.
Because the biggest 'lie' of all was that the establishment and some Remainers 'respected' the Brexit result and were going to carry it out. This 'lie' you seem to be unperturbed about, despite the fact that we are about to experience the biggest overturning of democracy in this country in the past 100 years or more.
The widespread use of the word 'respected' rather than 'accepted' was in itself an indicator of the way things would go. At least out and out Remainers like yourself have always been openly anti-democratic, (which is why calling now for a 'People's vote' is so hypocritical, by the way).
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
See Fiishes answer from just now.
Here's a lie from yesterday
Cameron: 'Please Mrs Merkel, can we have some relief on free movement or anti-EU forces will keep growing in the UK Merkel: No
So, David Cameron (seemingly in thrall to the common UK political view that all that had to happen was for Germany to will it and the EU would comply) tried to get Angela Merkel to agree to something which she could not actually do.
The EU had already agreed to greater UK controls, within the EU Treaties (you know, those Treaties that HMG had not fully made use of in terms of intra-EU migration).
The only way to get the changes that David Cameron said that he wanted was by Treaty change, he didn't engage in that sort of negotiation.
The way to ask was to engage with all the other member states and, like Maastricht, Lisbon, etc., seek to amend the Treaty of Rome. Any significant change to the Treaty requires the support of all the members. He didn't do that, don't claim that Angela Merkel said "no" when, at most, she would have been saying "it's not my decision".
Ok, the EU said no then, same difference. My point of the light hearted post was that there never was, or could be, a real negotiation because of the disparity of power between the EU and the UK. . A point I have made since Day one. The 'negotiations' have been only to find a form of words that keeps the UK in the EU while pretending it isn't.Just a fiasco.
No, there could never be real negotiations because David Cameron chose not to engage in them. He was grandstanding to the UK public and media and, either through laziness and a lack of knowledge, or a criminally cavalier disregard, including of the UK electorate, he tried to just blag it. Politically speaking, he was much more Arthur Daley than Churchill or Macmillan.
And, as the EU was, at least in part, the UK, and the UK the EU, I don't really see how there could be a disparity between the two. Inside the EU, the UK had a position of significant power and influence, at a relatively reduced cost compared to other member states, that the decision to leave has already weakened - actually leaving will diminish it further. Whether the UK can improve its position from the outside will depend very much on the quality of political leadership available in the years to come - I'm not entirely hopeful, to be absolutely honest.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
This vileness is sadly typical of Remainers. They have only contempt for those who voted to Leave and speak about them in terms which would be seen as racist if applied to any other group.
The next referendum will see this elevated to new heights and will make our current culture war look mild by comparison.
It's not just Brexit. Political discourse has deteriorated to an alarming degree in recent years. I don't really discuss politics with my friends any more, my facebook feed is cluttered with their bitter, insulting anti-Tory posts. The last thing I am is a Tory but I find their snarky memes really quite unpleasant on a basic human level. Everything has descended to a personal, vitriolic level. You're hardly ever debating an idea any more but instead attacking a person for their beliefs.
I have in the past asked Queensland Addick if he is happy to stand by Trump, as a person and defend his insulting, deceitful, misogynist behavior, but never got an answer. I note that Red in SE8 quietly side-stepped my question asking if he actually thought about what sort of person his post made him appear.
It's disappointing that people should let their moral compass be so severely deflected for the sake of politics.
Quietly sidelined! I did not respond to that particular point in your post because I thought it best not to repeat and therefore draw attention to such an insanely stupid comment! Only a 6 year old child who still doesn’t fully understand the concept of death and demographics could take issue with me simply stating the fact that Brexit voters are dying more quickly than Remain voters and that this is significant because we have not implemented the result yet and by the time we do implement the result the Brexit majority will consist entirely of dead people’s votes.
And I can assure you, based on the debates we have had on this thread over the last two years, I consider my moral compass, as a Remainer, vastly superior to the moral compass of most Brexit voters.
And you respond by calling my assertion insanely stupid, by inference liken me to a six year old child and finish by claiming your vast moral superiority over 17,000,000 of your fellow citizens.
I get demographics, wait 20 years and Northern Ireland would vote to unite Ireland. You're repeating a thread of remainer argument that I find particularly distasteful and disrespectful.
Speaking as someone whose Remain voting mother is one of those who have died in the meantime, I think it would just be best to suggest nothing more than that "the patterns of demographic change are more likely increase pro-EU/Remain support in the country".
People on both sides voted for a host of reasons in the referendum, some of which, on both sides, are unlikely to stand up to robust scrutiny, which is why the privacy of the voting booth is probably something to be welcomed. We will, all of us who voted, have reasons for believing that at least some of the opposing arguments were stupid (but even the most intellectual of us can be motivated to act for foolish reasons); some will also have been motivated by beliefs that I would hope all of us would feel are reprehensible.
I can quite happily live with people making decisions for reasons that are honest and, in my view, wrong. I am in no position to do anything other than to try to dispute, should the opportunity arise, the accuracy of their views - as they will with me. It probably won't change anything, or anyone's views, but that's life.
P.S. IMHO, if things pan out as badly as I might fear (including the DUP continuing to be the senior party in the Westminster Government, and a no deal outcome), 20 years might be pushing it in Northern Ireland, it could easily be 5 or less.
If only every one was as civil and well informed as yourself, there wouldn't be any of the dramas that kick off in here.
Just came across a two year old Brexit comment from Varoufakis: “You can check out any time you like, as the Hotel California song says, but you can't really leave.”
Could be very apt and prescient. He got it right that we should not have invoked Article 50.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Perhaps you would like to list some of the 'lies' I have told?
In the process perhaps you would like to challenge the one big truth I have been telling for two years, that the majority of the British establishment never intended to carry out the result of the referendum and have done everything they could to stay in the EU, something it looks as if they are about to achieve.
You know those bits where you lie, and I quote you, and write "lie", or "made up", or correct your lies with what actually happened? Those lies.
Why do I need to challenge something irrelevant to my statement?
Respecting the referendum result isn't really possible after the uncovering of some of the biggest incidences of electoral fraud and criminal activity surrounding our democracy in modern history.
Meanwhile, you continue to lie about elites. Dozens of posters have countered your lies regarding elites many many times but you persist in repeating them.
No they have not. The only argument used against my definition of elites is the preposterous one that they do not exist. As if we live in an egalitarian society where everybody has equal power and influence. Just piffle.
Lie.
So what is your disagreement with my proposition that elites exist and most of them oppose Brexit?
See Fiishes answer from just now.
Here's a lie from yesterday
Cameron: 'Please Mrs Merkel, can we have some relief on free movement or anti-EU forces will keep growing in the UK Merkel: No
So, David Cameron (seemingly in thrall to the common UK political view that all that had to happen was for Germany to will it and the EU would comply) tried to get Angela Merkel to agree to something which she could not actually do.
The EU had already agreed to greater UK controls, within the EU Treaties (you know, those Treaties that HMG had not fully made use of in terms of intra-EU migration).
The only way to get the changes that David Cameron said that he wanted was by Treaty change, he didn't engage in that sort of negotiation.
The way to ask was to engage with all the other member states and, like Maastricht, Lisbon, etc., seek to amend the Treaty of Rome. Any significant change to the Treaty requires the support of all the members. He didn't do that, don't claim that Angela Merkel said "no" when, at most, she would have been saying "it's not my decision".
Ok, the EU said no then, same difference. My point of the light hearted post was that there never was, or could be, a real negotiation because of the disparity of power between the EU and the UK. . A point I have made since Day one. The 'negotiations' have been only to find a form of words that keeps the UK in the EU while pretending it isn't.Just a fiasco.
Lie. Merkel is not the EU, the EU is not Merkel - precisely the point of that post that I was pointing out as a lie.
And suddenly you posts are "light hearted" - pull the other one Tommy Cooper.
As I have eluded to before, they are carefully calculated tabloid style soundbites, that someone who wants to believe Brexit will be great will end up quoting in front of his equally disillusioned pals in the pub as a fact. Like "The longer you experience the EU generally the more you dislike it". Flaky opinion disguised as "fact".
The current ‘deal’ (lol) will not get through Parliament. No deal will never be accepted.
Looking like the 27 November will be a very important date. That is when the European Court of Justice adjudicates on whether the invocation of Article 50 can be revoked.
Apparently, advance consensus amongst legal experts is that the ECJ will say yes.
If so, and it were invoked, that would allow time for a real negotiation based on this week’s 26 page document and even, potentially, a fresh referendum.
Unless the revocation of Article 50 also requires EU member state agreement. Then things may get even more complex.
The current ‘deal’ (lol) will not get through Parliament. No deal will never be accepted.
Looking like the 27 November will be a very important date. That is when the European Court of Justice adjudicates on whether the invocation of Article 50 can be revoked.
Apparently, advance consensus amongst legal experts is that the ECJ will say yes.
If so, and it were invoked, that would allow time for a real negotiation based on this week’s 26 page document and even, potentially, a fresh referendum.
Unless the revocation of Article 50 also requires EU member state agreement. Then things may get even more complex.
With the ERG a busted flush a lot of MPs, other party's MPs included, will have to decide whether to go with the deal on the table or vote it down and be seen as forcing us into no deal or leaving the door open for no Brexit.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal getting through. it might be very close but it could happen.
The current ‘deal’ (lol) will not get through Parliament. No deal will never be accepted.
Looking like the 27 November will be a very important date. That is when the European Court of Justice adjudicates on whether the invocation of Article 50 can be revoked.
Apparently, advance consensus amongst legal experts is that the ECJ will say yes.
If so, and it were invoked, that would allow time for a real negotiation based on this week’s 26 page document and even, potentially, a fresh referendum.
Unless the revocation of Article 50 also requires EU member state agreement. Then things may get even more complex.
“The ECJ's preliminary ruling on whether an Article 50 notice can be unilaterally revoked and if so, on what conditions and with what effect, will therefore proceed.
The preliminary ruling is expected at the end of the November, following which the matter will return to the Court of Session for it to give judgment, taking into account not only the ruling but also any relevant facts and rules of domestic law. Given the on-going battle among MPs over the draft Brexit withdrawal agreement which is likely to come to a head in the next few weeks, the timing of the delivery of the ECJ's preliminary ruling and its impact will be fascinating.“
The current ‘deal’ (lol) will not get through Parliament. No deal will never be accepted.
Looking like the 27 November will be a very important date. That is when the European Court of Justice adjudicates on whether the invocation of Article 50 can be revoked.
Apparently, advance consensus amongst legal experts is that the ECJ will say yes.
If so, and it were invoked, that would allow time for a real negotiation based on this week’s 26 page document and even, potentially, a fresh referendum.
Unless the revocation of Article 50 also requires EU member state agreement. Then things may get even more complex.
With the ERG a busted flush a lot of MPs, other party's MPs included, will have to decide whether to go with the deal on the table or vote it down and be seen as forcing us into no deal or leaving the door open for no Brexit.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal getting through. it might be very close but it could happen.
It meant that we would have the deadline hanging over us.
The Parliament vote will not be until December. Makes the timing of the ECJ decision even more interesting as it will provide wider options than those currently on the table.
The current ‘deal’ (lol) will not get through Parliament. No deal will never be accepted.
Looking like the 27 November will be a very important date. That is when the European Court of Justice adjudicates on whether the invocation of Article 50 can be revoked.
Apparently, advance consensus amongst legal experts is that the ECJ will say yes.
If so, and it were invoked, that would allow time for a real negotiation based on this week’s 26 page document and even, potentially, a fresh referendum.
Unless the revocation of Article 50 also requires EU member state agreement. Then things may get even more complex.
With the ERG a busted flush a lot of MPs, other party's MPs included, will have to decide whether to go with the deal on the table or vote it down and be seen as forcing us into no deal or leaving the door open for no Brexit.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal getting through. it might be very close but it could happen.
It meant that we would have the deadline hanging over us.
The Parliament vote will not be until December. Makes the timing of the ECJ decision even more interesting as it will provide wider options than those currently on the table.
And kick the can down the round is always a popular option.
i think May is playing the right card ie "this has dragged on too long, we've got a deal, let's stop whinging and get on with it" as a lot of people are fed up and even if they aren't 100% happy with the deal prefer it to either no deal or no brexit.
The current ‘deal’ (lol) will not get through Parliament. No deal will never be accepted.
Looking like the 27 November will be a very important date. That is when the European Court of Justice adjudicates on whether the invocation of Article 50 can be revoked.
Apparently, advance consensus amongst legal experts is that the ECJ will say yes.
If so, and it were invoked, that would allow time for a real negotiation based on this week’s 26 page document and even, potentially, a fresh referendum.
Unless the revocation of Article 50 also requires EU member state agreement. Then things may get even more complex.
With the ERG a busted flush a lot of MPs, other party's MPs included, will have to decide whether to go with the deal on the table or vote it down and be seen as forcing us into no deal or leaving the door open for no Brexit.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal getting through. it might be very close but it could happen.
It meant that we would have the deadline hanging over us.
The Parliament vote will not be until December. Makes the timing of the ECJ decision even more interesting as it will provide wider options than those currently on the table.
And kick the can down the round is always a popular option.
i think May is playing the right card ie "this has dragged on too long, we've got a deal, let's stop whinging and get on with it" as a lot of people are fed up and even if they aren't 100% happy with the deal prefer it to either no deal or no brexit.
The current ‘deal’ (lol) will not get through Parliament. No deal will never be accepted.
Looking like the 27 November will be a very important date. That is when the European Court of Justice adjudicates on whether the invocation of Article 50 can be revoked.
Apparently, advance consensus amongst legal experts is that the ECJ will say yes.
If so, and it were invoked, that would allow time for a real negotiation based on this week’s 26 page document and even, potentially, a fresh referendum.
Unless the revocation of Article 50 also requires EU member state agreement. Then things may get even more complex.
With the ERG a busted flush a lot of MPs, other party's MPs included, will have to decide whether to go with the deal on the table or vote it down and be seen as forcing us into no deal or leaving the door open for no Brexit.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal getting through. it might be very close but it could happen.
It meant that we would have the deadline hanging over us.
The Parliament vote will not be until December. Makes the timing of the ECJ decision even more interesting as it will provide wider options than those currently on the table.
And kick the can down the round is always a popular option.
i think May is playing the right card ie "this has dragged on too long, we've got a deal, let's stop whinging and get on with it" as a lot of people are fed up and even if they aren't 100% happy with the deal prefer it to either no deal or no brexit.
Lots of politics to be played out yet.
Indeed there is.
The only significant political issue is whether the Remainer majority in Parliament thinks the 17.4 million Brexiters have been sufficiently demoralised by 2 years of bullshit negotiations and a crap deal, for Remainers to risk another referendum. They will only support it if they think they can win. That is the only consideration, not 'democracy.
Does anybody know who is financing the Peoples Vote campaign other than George Soros and the dry cleaning guy? They are bombarding MPs with specially commissioned polls for each constituency and opening shops with specially branded propaganda food. None of this comes cheap. Where is the money coming from?
Comments
Or maybe just 'working class' comrade? Whatever working class is now, if it even exists as a 'class'.
All Cameron could come up was some pretty flimsy example of one hospital in Suffolk, but non other, because there wasn't any evidence that immigration from the EU was causing damage to the UK economy, as it wasn't. The EU then pointed out that the rules that exist weren't being implemented anyway, so Cameron's pleas where ignored.
The EU weren't going to put FoM on hold because of whipped up fears, and 20 years of people being groomed by the Sun, Mail and Express about immigrants.
I think your statement of "The middle classes in particular have always distrusted, despised and feared the working class, Brexit has given them a cause to unite over and openly share their feelings." is just wrong.
What is middle class these days? What is working class? My dad was a painter and decorator, my mum a dinner lady so I see myself as having grown up in a working class family. Am I still working class? How do you define it? Who decides? My wife is a nurse. is she middle or working class? Her wages certainly aren't "elite" and she works.
Your statement also assumes that ALL middle class people fear ALL working class people even though that are often related to, married to members of these badly defined classes.
You also make the implied assumption, again wrongly, that all middle class people voted remain and all working class people voted leave when plainly that is not true.
And you respond by calling my assertion insanely stupid, by inference liken me to a six year old child and finish by claiming your vast moral superiority over 17,000,000 of your fellow citizens.
I get demographics, wait 20 years and Northern Ireland would vote to unite Ireland. You're repeating a thread of remainer argument that I find particularly distasteful and disrespectful.
Why not give Southbank yet more evidence of how SOME remainers look down on Brexiters.
The EU had already agreed to greater UK controls, within the EU Treaties (you know, those Treaties that HMG had not fully made use of in terms of intra-EU migration).
The only way to get the changes that David Cameron said that he wanted was by Treaty change, he didn't engage in that sort of negotiation.
The way to ask was to engage with all the other member states and, like Maastricht, Lisbon, etc., seek to amend the Treaty of Rome. Any significant change to the Treaty requires the support of all the members. He didn't do that, don't claim that Angela Merkel said "no" when, at most, she would have been saying "it's not my decision".
People on both sides voted for a host of reasons in the referendum, some of which, on both sides, are unlikely to stand up to robust scrutiny, which is why the privacy of the voting booth is probably something to be welcomed. We will, all of us who voted, have reasons for believing that at least some of the opposing arguments were stupid (but even the most intellectual of us can be motivated to act for foolish reasons); some will also have been motivated by beliefs that I would hope all of us would feel are reprehensible.
I can quite happily live with people making decisions for reasons that are honest and, in my view, wrong. I am in no position to do anything other than to try to dispute, should the opportunity arise, the accuracy of their views - as they will with me. It probably won't change anything, or anyone's views, but that's life.
P.S. IMHO, if things pan out as badly as I might fear (including the DUP continuing to be the senior party in the Westminster Government, and a no deal outcome), 20 years might be pushing it in Northern Ireland, it could easily be 5 or less.
And, as the EU was, at least in part, the UK, and the UK the EU, I don't really see how there could be a disparity between the two. Inside the EU, the UK had a position of significant power and influence, at a relatively reduced cost compared to other member states, that the decision to leave has already weakened - actually leaving will diminish it further. Whether the UK can improve its position from the outside will depend very much on the quality of political leadership available in the years to come - I'm not entirely hopeful, to be absolutely honest.
Could be very apt and prescient. He got it right that we should not have invoked Article 50.
And suddenly you posts are "light hearted" - pull the other one Tommy Cooper.
As I have eluded to before, they are carefully calculated tabloid style soundbites, that someone who wants to believe Brexit will be great will end up quoting in front of his equally disillusioned pals in the pub as a fact. Like "The longer you experience the EU generally the more you dislike it". Flaky opinion disguised as "fact".
Looking like the 27 November will be a very important date. That is when the European Court of Justice adjudicates on whether the invocation of Article 50 can be revoked.
Apparently, advance consensus amongst legal experts is that the ECJ will say yes.
If so, and it were invoked, that would allow time for a real negotiation based on this week’s 26 page document and even, potentially, a fresh referendum.
Unless the revocation of Article 50 also requires EU member state agreement. Then things may get even more complex.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal getting through. it might be very close but it could happen.
A delay is also possible.
That's why it was so irresponsible to call for A50 to be invoked straight away. https://labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/
It meant that we would have the deadline hanging over us.
The preliminary ruling is expected at the end of the November, following which the matter will return to the Court of Session for it to give judgment, taking into account not only the ruling but also any relevant facts and rules of domestic law. Given the on-going battle among MPs over the draft Brexit withdrawal agreement which is likely to come to a head in the next few weeks, the timing of the delivery of the ECJ's preliminary ruling and its impact will be fascinating.“
https://lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=5145b38f-33a8-4a5c-b806-f4d6bc4d8ea5
The Parliament vote will not be until December. Makes the timing of the ECJ decision even more interesting as it will provide wider options than those currently on the table.
i think May is playing the right card ie "this has dragged on too long, we've got a deal, let's stop whinging and get on with it" as a lot of people are fed up and even if they aren't 100% happy with the deal prefer it to either no deal or no brexit.
Lots of politics to be played out yet.