As usual, the really important matters in Czech life are properly addressed:
"An interesting feature of the national naval presence in the Czech Republic is its structural composition of the special Office of the Beer Naval Support, which is engaged in the purchase, quality control and delivery of the famous Czech beer on combat ships, vessels and coastal side. Just this Office has been supporting in a proper state of all shipboard beer pipelines available on the Czech Navy ships."
And it's "Ahoj". We are not effing pirates.
You should be paying me for my talent, who else could find a word that covered both the Navy and the Czech language.
Btw, keep those boats out of our territorial waters.
He doesn’t look very well. As someone who has heard of him but not considered it worth finding out much about him, does he always look like someone has just rammed a stick with a wig on top up his arse and through the top of his head?
May is under relentless pressure in Parliament over the backstop arrangement in her latest document. The Irish issue remains central to this whole brexit thing.
From the above framework:
139. Both Parties affirm that the achievements, benefits and commitments of the peace process in Northern Ireland will remain of paramount importance to peace, stability and reconciliation. They agree that the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement reached on 10 April 1998 by the United Kingdom Government, the Irish Government and the other participants in the multi-party negotiations (the “1998 Agreement”) must be protected in all its parts, and that this extends to the practical application of the 1998 Agreement on the island of Ireland and to the totality of the relationships set out in the 1998 Agreement.
Well quite. The 1998 agreement is at odds with the existence of a border, which is what brexit demands. The backstop dance, and indeed the maxfax aspiration are details that cloud the fundamental reality. The Belfast Agreement goes, or Brexit goes. The two can't coexist. To suggest they can is to promise that cats and dogs can mate and produce offspring.
I wouldn’t worry ,, Brexit won’t happen anyway so it’s a moot point.
Hilarious. Like many who voted Brexit, part of you now really wishes that to be true. Did you happen to watch Newsnight tonight? it's going to happen. There is no pathway to stop it in time.
And then you will have to own it, on here. Good luck with that.
May is under relentless pressure in Parliament over the backstop arrangement in her latest document. The Irish issue remains central to this whole brexit thing.
From the above framework:
139. Both Parties affirm that the achievements, benefits and commitments of the peace process in Northern Ireland will remain of paramount importance to peace, stability and reconciliation. They agree that the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement reached on 10 April 1998 by the United Kingdom Government, the Irish Government and the other participants in the multi-party negotiations (the “1998 Agreement”) must be protected in all its parts, and that this extends to the practical application of the 1998 Agreement on the island of Ireland and to the totality of the relationships set out in the 1998 Agreement.
Well quite. The 1998 agreement is at odds with the existence of a border, which is what brexit demands. The backstop dance, and indeed the maxfax aspiration are details that cloud the fundamental reality. The Belfast Agreement goes, or Brexit goes. The two can't coexist. To suggest they can is to promise that cats and dogs can mate and produce offspring.
I wouldn’t worry ,, Brexit won’t happen anyway so it’s a moot point.
Hilarious. Like many who voted Brexit, part of you now really wishes that to be true. Did you happen to watch Newsnight tonight? it's going to happen. There is no pathway to stop it in time.
And then you will have to own it, on here. Good luck with that.
With all due respect to the guests on Newsnight, they were incredibly vague as to what happens after the WA bill is defeated at the first attempt.
Where we are in total agreement is that Brexit voters, the Leave protagonists and the Tory Party have 100% ownership of Brexit should the WA go through eventually and we leave next March 29th.
The blame shifting started a long time ago especially when Brexiteers resigned from the Cabinet last summer. This WA deal has been so predictable that even Varoufakis has stated that May has achieved the best deal available.
The vultures are looking for a slice of the action once we have left. But I digress!
There are still a couple of paths available which are distinct from the WA on the table but best await the vote in the House.
This article from Gary Younge is superb in its discussion of how wealthy elites can portray themselves as the voice of the people, and yet rail against an 'elite', and how the left's condescension has led to Brexit and Trump. It is The Guardian, but it reads like one of the most balanced and honest explorations of the current culture wars. Certainly worth a read whatever your perspective is.
From Trump to Boris Johnson: how the wealthy tell us what ‘real folk’ want
Good article. Calling people stupid is not the way and too many people do that on here in this debate. One of the elephants in the room about Brexit is that people voted for it for a whole host of reasons. Yes, we get people telling us they voted for this and they voted for that, and I am surprised these people get away with it.
One thing May could have done is forget about trying to keep the ERG people happy and have more talks with Labour through the process. The ERG were never going to support her, and she expects Labour to support her plan without giving them the slightest input. Of course this may not have gone down well with a few Tories, but this was always about her own party and it is no good pointing the finger anywhere else.
The talks have happened cross-party and whilst they can't and shouldn't shout it from the rooftops, a second vote is where we are heading. It is known that the EU will give more time for a second vote but we can't take the outcome of it for granted. It is the opportunity for the British people to confirm that they wanted what Rees-Mogg and others keep telling us they wanted! That will shut everybody up. Or they might see Brexit for the dogs dinner it is. Of the people I know who voted Brexit, a decent number would now vote remain. Some, not because they are EU lovers, but they feel a bit cheated.
May is under relentless pressure in Parliament over the backstop arrangement in her latest document. The Irish issue remains central to this whole brexit thing.
From the above framework:
139. Both Parties affirm that the achievements, benefits and commitments of the peace process in Northern Ireland will remain of paramount importance to peace, stability and reconciliation. They agree that the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement reached on 10 April 1998 by the United Kingdom Government, the Irish Government and the other participants in the multi-party negotiations (the “1998 Agreement”) must be protected in all its parts, and that this extends to the practical application of the 1998 Agreement on the island of Ireland and to the totality of the relationships set out in the 1998 Agreement.
Well quite. The 1998 agreement is at odds with the existence of a border, which is what brexit demands. The backstop dance, and indeed the maxfax aspiration are details that cloud the fundamental reality. The Belfast Agreement goes, or Brexit goes. The two can't coexist. To suggest they can is to promise that cats and dogs can mate and produce offspring.
I wouldn’t worry ,, Brexit won’t happen anyway so it’s a moot point.
Hilarious. Like many who voted Brexit, part of you now really wishes that to be true. Did you happen to watch Newsnight tonight? it's going to happen. There is no pathway to stop it in time.
And then you will have to own it, on here. Good luck with that.
You post such good posts normally, but every now and then, you put up an inane comment.
I explained previously my reasons for thinking it will not happen ... in no way do I wish this to be true. That’s wishful thinking on your part ... ohhh don’t worry, the Brexiteers will come to their senses eventually, deep down they know they are wrong. What a load of crap!
The halfway house on offer is useless to everyone. No deal will not get through Parliament. So there will be an agreement between all parties to extend the process which will eventually end in us remaining.
The 26-pager from yesterday showed what could have been done but it’s a fantasy vision at this stage.
May is under relentless pressure in Parliament over the backstop arrangement in her latest document. The Irish issue remains central to this whole brexit thing.
From the above framework:
139. Both Parties affirm that the achievements, benefits and commitments of the peace process in Northern Ireland will remain of paramount importance to peace, stability and reconciliation. They agree that the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement reached on 10 April 1998 by the United Kingdom Government, the Irish Government and the other participants in the multi-party negotiations (the “1998 Agreement”) must be protected in all its parts, and that this extends to the practical application of the 1998 Agreement on the island of Ireland and to the totality of the relationships set out in the 1998 Agreement.
Well quite. The 1998 agreement is at odds with the existence of a border, which is what brexit demands. The backstop dance, and indeed the maxfax aspiration are details that cloud the fundamental reality. The Belfast Agreement goes, or Brexit goes. The two can't coexist. To suggest they can is to promise that cats and dogs can mate and produce offspring.
I wouldn’t worry ,, Brexit won’t happen anyway so it’s a moot point.
Hilarious. Like many who voted Brexit, part of you now really wishes that to be true. Did you happen to watch Newsnight tonight? it's going to happen. There is no pathway to stop it in time.
And then you will have to own it, on here. Good luck with that.
You post such good posts normally, but every now and then, you put up an inane comment.
I explained previously my reasons for thinking it will not happen ... in no way do I wish this to be true. That’s wishful thinking on your part ... ohhh don’t worry, the Brexiteers will come to their senses eventually, deep down they know they are wrong. What a load of crap!
The halfway house on offer is useless to everyone. No deal will not get through Parliament. So there will be an agreement between all parties to extend the process which will eventually end in us remaining.
The 26-pager from yesterday showed what could have been done but it’s a fantasy vision at this stage.
Missed your last point ... own it on here!
WTF do you think I’ve been doing for the last couple of years being one of a handful of people backing leave whilst receiving a multitude of insults from angry remainers ... at least you have managed to avoid sending insults.
I have never denied my views nor been afraid to back them up.
So yes ... I own my opinion and still believe it could have happened if we didn’t have a political strata whose main skill is producing soundbites.
Another rare comment from me on this thread. Having listened to most of yesterdays HoP debate and then the various 'commentators', it would seem quite obvious that this deal will not get through the commons. If that's the case what next? We could go back to the EU and try to renegotiate, but even May says that is not possible or even on the table. We could plough ahead and have a 'no deal' the type that BoJo, JRM and Doppy Davis wants, or we could say to the UK public, this is the deal we have do you want it? However the aforementioned people including May are scared of doing this, just in case the vote is to stay as we are now, that would completely destroy the 'little islanders' ideals!! Overall we are in this place due to having no back-up plan BEFORE the first referendum, that is purely down to Cameron and co. We complained here and on other forums of some of our previous managers not having a Plan B for playing a football game, this (referendum) was FAR FAR FAR, more important than that, yet it was never considered.....unbelievable Jeff (as Kammy would say!!). Finally I don't know if anyone else heard it, but Doppy Davis was interviewed earlier this week, and when asked what could happen if May's deal was defeated, he said "we would have a 'no deal' situation, but not to worry as we have a 21 month transition period to negotiate trade deals etc". This comment was made by the ex-BREXIT minister, who should know full well, that if we leave without a deal.....there is no transition period, hence we have no chance of negotiating diddly squat!! This is a man who was at the forefront of BREXIT and yet doesn't know his own rules.....unbelievable Jeff!!! The public are supposed to just fall in line with the buffoons dealing with the most important deal for the next 2 or 3 generations......yet we are not to be allowed a final say? That is unbelievable Jeff!!
Another rare comment from me on this thread. Having listened to most of yesterdays HoP debate and then the various 'commentators', it would seem quite obvious that this deal will not get through the commons. If that's the case what next? We could go back to the EU and try to renegotiate, but even May says that is not possible or even on the table. We could plough ahead and have a 'no deal' the type that BoJo, JRM and Doppy Davis wants, or we could say to the UK public, this is the deal we have do you want it? However the aforementioned people including May are scared of doing this, just in case the vote is to stay as we are now, that would completely destroy the 'little islanders' ideals!! Overall we are in this place due to having no back-up plan BEFORE the first referendum, that is purely down to Cameron and co. We complained here and on other forums of some of our previous managers not having a Plan B for playing a football game, this (referendum) was FAR FAR FAR, more important than that, yet it was never considered.....unbelievable Jeff (as Kammy would say!!). Finally I don't know if anyone else heard it, but Doppy Davis was interviewed earlier this week, and when asked what could happen if May's deal was defeated, he said "we would have a 'no deal' situation, but not to worry as we have a 21 month transition period to negotiate trade deals etc". This comment was made by the ex-BREXIT minister, who should know full well, that if we leave without a deal.....there is no transition period, hence we have no chance of negotiating diddly squat!! This is a man who was at the forefront of BREXIT and yet doesn't know his own rules.....unbelievable Jeff!!! The public are supposed to just fall in line with the buffoons dealing with the most important deal for the next 2 or 3 generations......yet we are not to be allowed a final say? That is unbelievable Jeff!!
Great post.
It has become abundantly clear that all of the self-appointed experts pushing for Brexit over the years (Farage, JRM, Davis, Redwood and the multitude of other high profile Brexiters) have zero clue or understanding about the rules of the EU, what leaving the EU actually entails and the benefits that EU membership brings to the UK. They have always held this view and continue to espouse the view that there is possible and also really easy way to maintain more or less our entire benefits of being in the EU but also embark on some neo-colonialism exercise where we engage in some bizarre form of 21st century mercantilism with developing countries. Developing countries which have so far displayed zero interest in preferential trade deals with the UK (mainly because most of them export to the EU under zero tariffs - and again another area these Brexiters are hopelessly ill-informed in is how the tariff schedules at the EU and WTO actually work).
May's plan is definitely the least worst option after no Brexit at all. But no Brexit at all seems the best option. Brexiters are not happy with the deal so what's the point? If they are not going to be happy, we might as well be better off whilst they are unhappy!
Only as a result of the red line on FoM. She has pretty much capitulated on everything else because virtually no one thinks we won't go into the Backstop for years.
The best deal (other than remaining) surely is EFTA/EEA like Norway, additionally with a Customs agreement? I still think this is where we may be heading.
It seems to me that this whole thing has been about controlling movement of people, control of which we already had under EU regulations, its just our dissembling politicians have never admitted it.
We will have ended up with less sovereignty than ever.
If you are one of those who believes the time is up and we have to take the deal, otherwise we will crash out then then fine. I don't. There is a court case, (taken via the Scottish Supreme Court, which Dex EU has very late in the day failed to stop) being brought before the ECJ very shortly for a ruling on whether the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50 notice. If that is passed, it changes the dynamic of the options available to Parliament.
Good article. Calling people stupid is not the way and too many people do that on here in this debate. One of the elephants in the room about Brexit is that people voted for it for a whole host of reasons. Yes, we get people telling us they voted for this and they voted for that, and I am surprised these people get away with it.
You're right that it's never going to be the way to influence anybody, but it is a trap I fall into at times. With traditional left-right politics there are two great drivers of opinion. Right wingers tend to believe that people should look after themselves and should directly benefit from the fruits of their of own labours; it follows from this that lowering public spending is usually a key aim and that positions on specific policy areas flow from this. Left wingers have a core belief that everyone should be looked after and that the societal level is usually the most effective means of doing this; it therefore follows that their positions on specific policy areas flow from a desire for more public services ergo more public spending. There are no absolute rights or wrongs in the taxation versus services debate, rather a continuum where the optimum will be different for different people and the optimum across any group or nation will vary according to economic circumstances. We may disagree with others, but it is very hard not to see the logic of their position. When we do disagree with them, or choose to think badly of them this tends to be characterised as left=lazy, right=greedy. It's comparatively rare for 'stupid' to be the insult of choice, because everyone can see the logic of others' positions.
With Brexit, there isn't a simple formula like this. I guess that's why it's an issue that cuts across party lines. As a remainer, my reasons for wanting to stay seem clear and easy to understand: Apart from the obvious economic benefits of cooperation and of not causing chaos without having a clear plan or expected outcome, I want to enjoy the employment rights, consumer rights and freedom of movement that the EU provide. More generally I believe in economic and political cooperation and I am swayed by the peace in our time argument. These seem to be far more practical than the leave position where any economic rationale or any desire to 'take back control of our borders' have been blown out of the water. Their kicking back at the 'elite' has now been done - though of course to many, including me, choosing a constitutional issue to kick back on does look like the foolhardiness of the desperate: two years of strong and stable government rudderlessness show the folly of that strategy. The last refuges of the Brexiteers are therefore more ephemeral longings to 'return' some imagined state of national cohesion and unity. To me, and I'm sure to many other Remainers these desires seem questionable and unattainable. That it is hard to grasp and harder still to empathise, with what the Brexiteers want, makes it easy to characterise them as stupid (be that the case or not). It is this lack of understanding/empathy of their position, coupled with their unwillingness to accept an economic 'reality' that to me seems patently obvious, that leads me to slip into this thinking. At the same time when I see contradictions, duplicity and false logic that emanate from the leading Brexiteers, I question why anyone would give them any credence. I have no doubts that there are plenty of highly intelligent Brexiteers out there, it just seems hard sometimes to see the wood from the planks.
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
May is taking questions from the public on BBC News channel at 12:30. Text your question to 85058. I sent the following question.
Why do you keep claiming you are delivering what the people want when only 37% of the electorate voted leave and at least a million Leave voters have died since the referendum and in January living Remain voters will outnumber living Leave voters?
Yes, we should probably ignore the result of the 1975 referendum too, coz most of them voters are dead too.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?
Comments
Btw, keep those boats out of our territorial waters.
And then you will have to own it, on here. Good luck with that.
Where we are in total agreement is that Brexit voters, the Leave protagonists and the Tory Party have 100% ownership of Brexit should the WA go through eventually and we leave next March 29th.
The blame shifting started a long time ago especially when Brexiteers resigned from the Cabinet last summer. This WA deal has been so predictable that even Varoufakis has stated that May has achieved the best deal available.
The vultures are looking for a slice of the action once we have left. But I digress!
There are still a couple of paths available which are distinct from the WA on the table but best await the vote in the House.
From Trump to Boris Johnson: how the wealthy tell us what ‘real folk’ want
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/23/trump-boris-johnson-rightwing-populists
Again, I would call this appeasement.
The talks have happened cross-party and whilst they can't and shouldn't shout it from the rooftops, a second vote is where we are heading. It is known that the EU will give more time for a second vote but we can't take the outcome of it for granted. It is the opportunity for the British people to confirm that they wanted what Rees-Mogg and others keep telling us they wanted! That will shut everybody up. Or they might see Brexit for the dogs dinner it is. Of the people I know who voted Brexit, a decent number would now vote remain. Some, not because they are EU lovers, but they feel a bit cheated.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/23/study-shows-60-of-britons-believe-in-conspiracy-theories
I explained previously my reasons for thinking it will not happen ... in no way do I wish this to be true. That’s wishful thinking on your part ... ohhh don’t worry, the Brexiteers will come to their senses eventually, deep down they know they are wrong. What a load of crap!
The halfway house on offer is useless to everyone. No deal will not get through Parliament. So there will be an agreement between all parties to extend the process which will eventually end in us remaining.
The 26-pager from yesterday showed what could have been done but it’s a fantasy vision at this stage.
WTF do you think I’ve been doing for the last couple of years being one of a handful of people backing leave whilst receiving a multitude of insults from angry remainers ... at least you have managed to avoid sending insults.
I have never denied my views nor been afraid to back them up.
So yes ... I own my opinion and still believe it could have happened if we didn’t have a political strata whose main skill is producing soundbites.
The public are supposed to just fall in line with the buffoons dealing with the most important deal for the next 2 or 3 generations......yet we are not to be allowed a final say? That is unbelievable Jeff!!
It has become abundantly clear that all of the self-appointed experts pushing for Brexit over the years (Farage, JRM, Davis, Redwood and the multitude of other high profile Brexiters) have zero clue or understanding about the rules of the EU, what leaving the EU actually entails and the benefits that EU membership brings to the UK. They have always held this view and continue to espouse the view that there is possible and also really easy way to maintain more or less our entire benefits of being in the EU but also embark on some neo-colonialism exercise where we engage in some bizarre form of 21st century mercantilism with developing countries. Developing countries which have so far displayed zero interest in preferential trade deals with the UK (mainly because most of them export to the EU under zero tariffs - and again another area these Brexiters are hopelessly ill-informed in is how the tariff schedules at the EU and WTO actually work).
The best deal (other than remaining) surely is EFTA/EEA like Norway, additionally with a Customs agreement? I still think this is where we may be heading.
It seems to me that this whole thing has been about controlling movement of people, control of which we already had under EU regulations, its just our dissembling politicians have never admitted it.
We will have ended up with less sovereignty than ever.
If you are one of those who believes the time is up and we have to take the deal, otherwise we will crash out then then fine. I don't. There is a court case, (taken via the Scottish Supreme Court, which Dex EU has very late in the day failed to stop) being brought before the ECJ very shortly for a ruling on whether the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50 notice. If that is passed, it changes the dynamic of the options available to Parliament.
With Brexit, there isn't a simple formula like this. I guess that's why it's an issue that cuts across party lines. As a remainer, my reasons for wanting to stay seem clear and easy to understand: Apart from the obvious economic benefits of cooperation and of not causing chaos without having a clear plan or expected outcome, I want to enjoy the employment rights, consumer rights and freedom of movement that the EU provide. More generally I believe in economic and political cooperation and I am swayed by the peace in our time argument. These seem to be far more practical than the leave position where any economic rationale or any desire to 'take back control of our borders' have been blown out of the water. Their kicking back at the 'elite' has now been done - though of course to many, including me, choosing a constitutional issue to kick back on does look like the foolhardiness of the desperate: two years of
strong and stable governmentrudderlessness show the folly of that strategy. The last refuges of the Brexiteers are therefore more ephemeral longings to 'return' some imagined state of national cohesion and unity. To me, and I'm sure to many other Remainers these desires seem questionable and unattainable. That it is hard to grasp and harder still to empathise, with what the Brexiteers want, makes it easy to characterise them as stupid (be that the case or not). It is this lack of understanding/empathy of their position, coupled with their unwillingness to accept an economic 'reality' that to me seems patently obvious, that leads me to slip into this thinking. At the same time when I see contradictions, duplicity and false logic that emanate from the leading Brexiteers, I question why anyone would give them any credence. I have no doubts that there are plenty of highly intelligent Brexiteers out there, it just seems hard sometimes to see the wood from the planks.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model
Initially the brexiters dismissed it, then their heroes started to say the same thing - see my oft repeated link highlighting their blatant lies. Then they denied it, now it is what is happening, they are up in arms.
It is very, very difficult to not call people stupid when they have seen all this going on for three years, and only now start taking it seriously.
The article CharltonMadrid linked us to, written by Gary Younge, highlighting the condescension of the left and the calling of Trumpists and Brexiters stupid as reasons why they dig their heels in even more, is right. But when you then see McBobbin's link about conspiracy theories and how the Trumpists and Brexiters believe them, and you wonder what you can do? How can you make someone like that see reason? I quote from the article "31% of leave voters believed that Muslim immigration was part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain". I have heard similar, and have asked them, why would the ruling classes of Britain want to do that? Why would they want to give up their positions of power and have mullahs ruling over them? I as apparently part of "the left", have been included in a catch all that says I want Muslims ruling Britain. I drink like a bloody fish - why on earth would I want to live in a society where that was illegal? Millions of "lefties" love a beer, why would they want to be forcibly denied that? Yet still these people insist that "that's what you lefties want". Often they will leave your company "persuaded" that they were wrong. 10 minutes later they are spouting the same old bollocks to someone else. How can you not call someone like that stupid?
I have fellow UK immigrants to Portugal who support leave. They cite "uncontrolled immigration and paying benefits to scroungers who have never worked a day in Britain" and "open borders" as their reason for supporting leave. We show them proof that the UK choses not to adopt EU laws that prevent that, and that we don't have open borders. They agree that they were wrong. The next time someone posts a right wing immigrant bashing post on Facebook, they are back cheering on Brexit again. How are we supposed to carry on considering them as sensible human beings?
Look at the debate on here - Southbank comes out with lie after lie to try and justify his decision, Chippy "LOLs" any fact he doesn't like, Golfie keeps having his "reasons" deconstructed word by word. And yet, they continue. How can you not think of someone like that as lacking in sensible thinking?
If you explain to someone, with use of facts or even (dare we say it) expert opinion, previous examples and logic why they are mistaken in their belief, and they just carry right on believing it anyway, there is only one conclusion about their ability to sensibly analyse the facts in front of them. They are stupid.
The only people who are for Brexit and are not foolish are those that will actually gain from it - the small number of people who will be financially better off outside the EU - and who have no morals whatsoever when it comes to shafting everyone else.
Do you have any idea how horrible you just sounded?