Will we reach the point when pro brexit voters admit they didn't know what they were voting for, or is the present nightmare to be seen as all part of the brexit voters plan?
back to that old chestnut again are we.
I know what I voted for......can't talk for the other 18m leave voters.
The problem is The Government didn't realise what leave meant & still don't. Should never have had a remainer as the leader of the party, either before the Referendum or after.
The worst thing that has happend in British politics over the last 3 years is Corbyn being elected Labour leader. Virtually anyone else (apart from Diane Abbott) & the country would now be pushing for a vote of no confidence & a Labour landslide.
If I understand you correctly leave voters knew what leave meant but it's just the Government that didn't. Was this part of the plan, or did leave voters simply close their ears to remainer warnings? You say the chestnut is old but I say it is current. Surely leave voters thought through the full implications of what they voted for or they didn't have a clue what they were doing. If I am right brexit voters don't know what they want, but want it anyway. If they don't get what they don't know what they want, they blame somebody without thinking maybe they themselves are totally responsible for this nightmare. Nothing to do with a 'remainer' government.
Sorry, but I just don't get what you are going on about. Time & time again you say the same old thing...." leave voters didn't know they were voting for" as if there was a menu & we had to put a tick against a number of issues.
I thought the Referendum was pretty simple. Do you want to leave the EU....Yes or No. For me personally that meant:
The UK had a say in the number of people entering the country & not just an open door policy to 26 other European countries.
the UK parliament & Judiciary to be able to make & uphold our own laws.
That was it basically. I didn't fall for that old guff about £350m for the NHS & naively thought that The Government actually knew what they were doing when the announced a Referendum.......that they actually knew what "to leave the EU" meant & that it could be delivered.
As a financial adviser I don't expect all my clients to understand how a pension works, how they go from paying into it to it then paying out. I do all that for them. I wouldn't make a very good adviser if after 2 years I was still asking them "this income you need......do you want it to come from the natural income your underlying assets produce or from the capital growth or both ?.........because if its from natural income then we may have to move your funds from accumulation ones to income ones, and if its from capital growth we may have a problem because your current provider can't facilitate it".
I really can't see what a financial adviser adds to the debate unless they are immersed also in economics, politics, diplomacy and history . And even then I wouldn't trust them to do anything but chase their commission and/or fee.
Golfie. The Leave campaign website and Farage with many Brexiteers said that we could remain in the Customs Union. They and most of the leave voters didn't seem to realise that this meant free movement and ECJ. There are many versions of Brexit but we were given a vague choice that could have encompassed all of them. Hard Brexit that May championed in the GE was rejected and she is only in power due to a coalition bribe.
Golfie. The Leave campaign website and Farage with many Brexiteers said that we could remain in the Customs Union. They and most of the leave voters didn't seem to realise that this meant free movement and ECJ. There are many versions of Brexit but we were given a vague choice that could have encompassed all of them. Hard Brexit that May championed in the GE was rejected and she is only in power due to a coalition bribe.
But you do know that the leave campaign, Farage et al don't run the country don't you. doesn't matter who said what before June 23rd 2016 its what's done after that date that matters.
Interesting that this thread has turned from(often) reasoned argument to mindless squabbling. Is this because the Government has managed to come up with a position which suits nobody? Leavers do not like it, Remainers do not like it and the EU does not like it. You may say that all compromises are like that but the problem with this one is that it has to be turned into law. What is the betting that once the EU has said no , May will concede free movement, ECJ control and remaining in the single market and customs union? Brexit would not mean Brexit and the Tories will fully join Labour as an anti-Brexit Party. The referendum result will have been overturned, as was always the intention from day one and many people will not vote again. A victory for Brussels and international capital.
Good luck you Corbyn guys in challenging capitalism with 11 million votes when 17m votes can be ignored by the way.
It's funny how people can see it so differently. I reckon that they know the EU will reject this plan so they can say "we tried to push for a compromise deal that respected the result of the referendum and addressed the concerns of businesses around access to the EU market and the Irish border, however the EU have rejected our very reasonable offer and therefore we have no choice but to leave without a deal".
Either way, seems as though we are both sure that the EU will reject this proposal so the whole thing has been a complete waste of time.
At least the Government now has a position. I needed one when the negotiations started but those on the other side of the table know what we want. It may not be quite what everybody wants or even anybody, but you have to go in with a position.
It is impossible for May to find a position to keep the hard Brexiters happy or even the hard remainers, but the opportunity is now there to negotiate a sensible Brexit. It has finally dawned on the government that their preferred position and Labour's preferred position is not that different. This perversely gives her power against the hardline Brexiters and the support of remainers in the Tory party who have warned her where the line in the sand is for them. The hardline Brexiters can only try to scupper it and possibly kill Brexit altogether or suck it up. I would prefer there not to be a Brexit, but am relieved the hard Brexit now looks very unlikely.
What has been great is that the country has come together over the football. It has been a divided country and I would ask some Brexiters to reconsider their misguided notion that wanting Brexit is some sort of patriotic act. People who wish to remain, or even want a soft Brexit, are no less patriotic and suggesting otherwise destroys your own argument. Surely wanting what you think is best for your country, and feeling passionately about it is patriotic.
At least the Government now has a position. I needed one when the negotiations started but those on the other side of the table know what we want. It may not be quite what everybody wants or even anybody, but you have to go in with a position.
It is impossible for May to find a position to keep the hard Brexiters happy or even the hard remainers, but the opportunity is now there to negotiate a sensible Brexit. It has finally dawned on the government that their preferred position and Labour's preferred position is not that different. This perversely gives her power against the hardline Brexiters and the support of remainers in the Tory party who have warned her where the line in the sand is for them. The hardline Brexiters can only try to scupper it and possibly kill Brexit altogether or suck it up. I would prefer there not to be a Brexit, but am relieved the hard Brexit now looks very unlikely.
What has been great is that the country has come together over the football. It has been a divided country and I would ask some Brexiters to reconsider their misguided notion that wanting Brexit is some sort of patriotic act. People who wish to remain, or even want a soft Brexit, are no less patriotic and suggesting otherwise destroys your own argument. Surely wanting what you think is best for your country, and feeling passionately about it is patriotic.
Leavers stereotype remainers as unpatriotic, remainers stereotype leavers as being dim. In reality, as with all stereotypes, neither are really accurate. However if you want them to give up their stereotype because England have won a couple of football matches then we should be willing to give up ours too.
For what it's worth, I think Davis is right. The Brexit that all those people voted for is not going to be delivered, and I do believe that your average Brexit voter wanted a complete clean break.
I'm happy because I voted remain and the Brexit that most people believed they would get when they put their X in a box would be damaging.
I am sad because (and I know a lot of fellow remainers have mental gymnastics to get round this) it is not what democracy is about, but also, we have effectively had a referendum that sticks two fingers up to the EU, and therefore a lot of the EU citizens, only to keep the same relationship. Not great for our relations.
Perversely, May is doing the "right" thing for the country in a lot of remainers eyes, but they will never acknowledge it and just call her weak. She is risking her career, and already has done a few times, to stop the nation collectively punching itself in the face.
which no doubt will say that whilst he agrees entirely with DD he feels it best he fights the Leave corner from inside the Cabinet & will not be resigning.
I do hope it's along the lines of this quote; "My chances of being PM are about as good as the chances of finding Elvis on Mars, or my being reincarnated as an olive."
Comments
Woof.
Whatever she does will be like Charlton re signing Roger Johnson.
total farce.
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html
amp/s/amp.uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-single-market-brexit-campaign-customs-union-2018-1
Either way, seems as though we are both sure that the EU will reject this proposal so the whole thing has been a complete waste of time.
It is impossible for May to find a position to keep the hard Brexiters happy or even the hard remainers, but the opportunity is now there to negotiate a sensible Brexit. It has finally dawned on the government that their preferred position and Labour's preferred position is not that different. This perversely gives her power against the hardline Brexiters and the support of remainers in the Tory party who have warned her where the line in the sand is for them. The hardline Brexiters can only try to scupper it and possibly kill Brexit altogether or suck it up. I would prefer there not to be a Brexit, but am relieved the hard Brexit now looks very unlikely.
What has been great is that the country has come together over the football. It has been a divided country and I would ask some Brexiters to reconsider their misguided notion that wanting Brexit is some sort of patriotic act. People who wish to remain, or even want a soft Brexit, are no less patriotic and suggesting otherwise destroys your own argument. Surely wanting what you think is best for your country, and feeling passionately about it is patriotic.
I'm happy because I voted remain and the Brexit that most people believed they would get when they put their X in a box would be damaging.
I am sad because (and I know a lot of fellow remainers have mental gymnastics to get round this) it is not what democracy is about, but also, we have effectively had a referendum that sticks two fingers up to the EU, and therefore a lot of the EU citizens, only to keep the same relationship. Not great for our relations.
Perversely, May is doing the "right" thing for the country in a lot of remainers eyes, but they will never acknowledge it and just call her weak. She is risking her career, and already has done a few times, to stop the nation collectively punching itself in the face.
I think Brexit is over.
"My chances of being PM are about as good as the chances of finding Elvis on Mars, or my being reincarnated as an olive."