The whole country has been taken for a ride in the name of Tory in-fighting and jostling for power. What an enormous waste of time and money this has all been.
It's much much worse than that - we've been pegged out, face down, arse up with a sign saying Get It Here, Free For all, Hard As You Like, The Bigger The Better. And all cos 'Call me Dave' Cameron quailed in a willy waving contest with an unelectable, pantomime villain who posed no credible threat to the tory parliamentary dominance. Cowardly prick.
Hopefully this will kill the half baked May proposals that the EU will throw out anyway if presented. It covered goods which are an ever falling element of exports to the EU, but in which we have a trade deficit with the EU and ignores services which are an ever growing proportion of EU exports in which we enjoy a surplus.
We don't need to be in the customs union, a protection racket to raise tax on non EU imports with the UK acting as an EU tax collector. 99% of all businesses are small businesses and 90% of them don't export to the EU, they employ over half of UK employees and over 70% are in services industries which in turn generates over 70% of private sector turnover.
No Brexit is better than what we are sliding towards. The May proposal is a half baked cake and having a small bit of it to eat. The EU will regard it no different had it been the original aspiration of having a fully baked cake and eating as much as we could keep.
Brexit without the ability to move to greater free trade and elimination of third country import taxes is non-starter as far as I am concerned. We should be able to obtain access to the single market on free trade terms the EU would have no problem agreeing with any other State and can eliminate the Irish border issue at a stroke if it is more important than screwing consumers for taxes.
If we had provided clarity at the outset on what we wanted, as opposed to what we thought the EU might agree to, in the hope the sentiment would be reciprocated, we would not be in this situation and each side would be clear on what the outcome of no deal represented and what was worth sacrificing.
It's sheer utter incompetence of government and lack of confidence of Remainers in the nation's ability to forge a new 21st century relationship with a changing World outside of an EU trapped in the 20th century.
If by having confidence in the UK's ability to thrive outside the restrictions of an inward looking, ever less relevant EU, I am accused of "patriotism" then I am guilty.
Remainers exhibit the classic signs of negligent conservatism preferring to make no changes comfortable in the cosy idea that the past will be repeated and taking a new direction whose outcome can't be measured against the past cannot be contemplated.
Such people are typically the well educated career politicians, academics and bureaucrats, who do not welcome disruption of their comfortable lives through change or innovation. History shows us that nations decay and new nations prosper. Assuming the future will be an extension of the past, regardless of events outside your control, is the fast track to decay.
@seth plum will you ever be honest to yourself and admit that "democracy" is judged against a very simple barometer which is how close are the citizens to controlling the decision making process. You can't vote for a party in Poland or Germany or Latvia which will feed into the EU "democratic" process whose policies you prefer to any UK party, and presumably you don't care and don't think it relevant. Nor is there an EU Manifesto on which your MEP can state positions before you vote for him, because it will be the Heads of State who decide what can be voted on agreed behind closed doors. The Heads of State can't stand on a platform of EU policies as they don't know what policies each other will put forward let alone agree to. By contrast, in the UK you could vote for the SNP if they put a candidate up in your constituency.
I can accept that's how it must be, I don't see much alternatives, but please don't kid yourself the EU runs a sound "democratic" system.
The EU is as near to being a functioning democracy as Russia, but good luck with your continuing non-convincing arguments.
I have frequently said that the EU democracy may seem remote so I agree with you in that aspect.
However I have said it because people on this thread have simply said that the EU is 'undemocratic'. It is not, nor ever has been. It is a version of democracy.
If you wish to state that the simple barometric measure is how close citizens are to controlling the democratic process that is in itself an interesting debate.
You might find that UK citizens like you and I have always been under the auspices of more or less the same ruling class for the whole of our lives, indeed you allude to that establishment when you talk of 'the well educated career politicians, academics and bureaucrats, who do not welcome disruption of their comfortable lives through change or innovation.'
I certainly don't feel particularly close to that never changing establishment, and when you throw in the first past the post system, the House of Lords and Monarchy it feels even more alien.
So the debate is there to be had. You are right that I would feel more comfortable with for example a Romanian environmental politician than with a UK politician in the DUP (which ironically is the close at hand force you allude to).
I repeat the debate about 'democracy' is a live one. And I respect your yearning for your democracy to be more homespun as it were, even if I didn't respect it you won the vote anyway. However no way do I accept in any 'obvious' sense that the EU is less democratic than the UK. Different of course, and different enough it turns out for you to win and me to lose in the referendum.
I notice that one of your major themes is about trade and the financials, and I wholly understand your frustration with the process (I share that frustration) and you seem to say have done with it, leave without a deal. I understand that too.
However you know what I will ask now, how will that no deal exit manifest itself in actual detailed day to day practical terms, especially on the newly established hard land border on the island of Ireland?
The only solution I can see is an expensive one, a Trump like wall or something close to that.
Without a physical barrier what would be the consequence of a million EU citizens strolling across the land border from the Republic/EU into the UK?
Given the duplicitous nature of the General Election Tory and Labour manifestos on Brexit last year, we should have another General Election in which the Parties stand for what they really think on Brexit and which would enable pro-Brexit people to stand against them. That way we would have a Parliament which really represented the people on this massive issue. We would also then have a Government, either way, which had been elected to carry out what the people believe in.
Having another refendum would not help this process-if one referendum can be ignored then so can anoother. We need a Government which stands for what it believes in more than anything else.
And what would happen if the majority of MPs who got elected were all "remainers"? The referendum was far too close for this to ever work out without endless bickering from both "sides".
That's why I put the 'blame' of this farce solely at Cameron's door for using a referendum on such an important topic as part of a campaign.
The Parties are both refusing to carry out Brexit. They should put this to the electorate and allow pro-Brexit candidates a chance to stand against them. If they win then so be it, either way.
You do realise that you are directly contradicting what you said less than half an hour ago?
Parliament voted for a Referendum Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 The General election returned a Government supposedly committed to Brexit, against an Opposition also so committed. Parliament voted for the Withdrawal Bill. Parliament has been promised a meaningful vote on the outcome of negotiations
The idea that somehow Parliament has been sidelined through this process is nonsense.
Either the two main political parties in Westminster are refusing to carry out Brexit, or they are voting as you have described (I might question the degree to which the present party of "government" is allowing Parliament a meaningful role in the process).
In any event, HMG have advised the EU27 that it is leaving under Article 50 (which I regret), provided that no dramatic political and economic change happens, that would destabilise proceedings, the UK is not going to be a member of the EU after 29 March 2019.
The referendum asked whether people wished to remain in the EU or leave, both Labour and the Conservatives have indicated that they will respect the outcome of the referendum (no matter how stupid or damaging they may believe it to be), but the only mandate that the referendum provides (because of the lack of supporting information contained within the ballot paper) is to no longer be a member of the EU.
Without finding a way of dispassionately asking every single person that voted in favour of leaving for their reason(s) for so voting, any step taken, beyond the specific outcome that people voted for is not democratically valid.
Neither the Conservatives, nor Labour, are advocating remaining within the EU at present, both are stating that the UK will leave the EU.
I struggle to see how that is "refusing to carry out Brexit".
Find me a single Leave voter who wishes for all of these: to continue to have free movement of labour, control by the ECJ and to remain in the single market and customs union. Just one person will do. Because this is where we are heading.
Nigel Farage did:
Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing
Aaron Banks did:
Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK
Matthew Elliot did:
The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people
I emphasised ALL of them, because this is what is now on offer-find me one Leaver now or then who would be happy with ALL of them.
Do you think Remainers should care what Leavers want when it has been clear all along that Leavers could not give a fig about the views and fears of the approx 50% of the country who voted Remain?
I think the term is remoaners who lost and ought to get over it.
Given the duplicitous nature of the General Election Tory and Labour manifestos on Brexit last year, we should have another General Election in which the Parties stand for what they really think on Brexit and which would enable pro-Brexit people to stand against them. That way we would have a Parliament which really represented the people on this massive issue. We would also then have a Government, either way, which had been elected to carry out what the people believe in.
Having another refendum would not help this process-if one referendum can be ignored then so can anoother. We need a Government which stands for what it believes in more than anything else.
And what would happen if the majority of MPs who got elected were all "remainers"? The referendum was far too close for this to ever work out without endless bickering from both "sides".
That's why I put the 'blame' of this farce solely at Cameron's door for using a referendum on such an important topic as part of a campaign.
The Parties are both refusing to carry out Brexit. They should put this to the electorate and allow pro-Brexit candidates a chance to stand against them. If they win then so be it, either way.
You do realise that you are directly contradicting what you said less than half an hour ago?
Parliament voted for a Referendum Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 The General election returned a Government supposedly committed to Brexit, against an Opposition also so committed. Parliament voted for the Withdrawal Bill. Parliament has been promised a meaningful vote on the outcome of negotiations
The idea that somehow Parliament has been sidelined through this process is nonsense.
Either the two main political parties in Westminster are refusing to carry out Brexit, or they are voting as you have described (I might question the degree to which the present party of "government" is allowing Parliament a meaningful role in the process).
In any event, HMG have advised the EU27 that it is leaving under Article 50 (which I regret), provided that no dramatic political and economic change happens, that would destabilise proceedings, the UK is not going to be a member of the EU after 29 March 2019.
The referendum asked whether people wished to remain in the EU or leave, both Labour and the Conservatives have indicated that they will respect the outcome of the referendum (no matter how stupid or damaging they may believe it to be), but the only mandate that the referendum provides (because of the lack of supporting information contained within the ballot paper) is to no longer be a member of the EU.
Without finding a way of dispassionately asking every single person that voted in favour of leaving for their reason(s) for so voting, any step taken, beyond the specific outcome that people voted for is not democratically valid.
Neither the Conservatives, nor Labour, are advocating remaining within the EU at present, both are stating that the UK will leave the EU.
I struggle to see how that is "refusing to carry out Brexit".
Find me a single Leave voter who wishes for all of these: to continue to have free movement of labour, control by the ECJ and to remain in the single market and customs union. Just one person will do. Because this is where we are heading.
Nigel Farage did:
Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing
Aaron Banks did:
Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK
Matthew Elliot did:
The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people
I emphasised ALL of them, because this is what is now on offer-find me one Leaver now or then who would be happy with ALL of them.
Do you think Remainers should care what Leavers want when it has been clear all along that Leavers could not give a fig about the views and fears of the approx 50% of the country who voted Remain?
If a man has 52 potatoes and another man has 48 potatoes, who has the most potatoes?
So to sum up Remainers on here today:
1. The Leave vote was apparently anti immigrant and racist, but now free movement is off the table 'nobody knows' what Leavers voted for. I would get yourself checked out down the amnesia clinic , lads.
2. The referendum, the parliamentary votes and the General election do not mean that politicians should carry out Brexit, because Remainers just know, because they have been told by big business presumably, that Brexit is just 'bad'. And because remainers 'know' this all those democratic decisions are invalid they do not count. You guys would do well in the Chinese Communist Party, which takes a similiar view towards popular sovereignty.
3. No Remainers appear to be keen on a General election to settle this. I wonder if this is because they worry that the open contempt for democracy now being shown by our elites will lead to the emergence of a new polticial movement which they will not like. Well, by welcomimg the Tories and Labour's cynicism towards the electorate, you made the bed , guys.
Given the duplicitous nature of the General Election Tory and Labour manifestos on Brexit last year, we should have another General Election in which the Parties stand for what they really think on Brexit and which would enable pro-Brexit people to stand against them. That way we would have a Parliament which really represented the people on this massive issue. We would also then have a Government, either way, which had been elected to carry out what the people believe in.
Having another refendum would not help this process-if one referendum can be ignored then so can anoother. We need a Government which stands for what it believes in more than anything else.
And what would happen if the majority of MPs who got elected were all "remainers"? The referendum was far too close for this to ever work out without endless bickering from both "sides".
That's why I put the 'blame' of this farce solely at Cameron's door for using a referendum on such an important topic as part of a campaign.
The Parties are both refusing to carry out Brexit. They should put this to the electorate and allow pro-Brexit candidates a chance to stand against them. If they win then so be it, either way.
You do realise that you are directly contradicting what you said less than half an hour ago?
Parliament voted for a Referendum Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 The General election returned a Government supposedly committed to Brexit, against an Opposition also so committed. Parliament voted for the Withdrawal Bill. Parliament has been promised a meaningful vote on the outcome of negotiations
The idea that somehow Parliament has been sidelined through this process is nonsense.
Either the two main political parties in Westminster are refusing to carry out Brexit, or they are voting as you have described (I might question the degree to which the present party of "government" is allowing Parliament a meaningful role in the process).
In any event, HMG have advised the EU27 that it is leaving under Article 50 (which I regret), provided that no dramatic political and economic change happens, that would destabilise proceedings, the UK is not going to be a member of the EU after 29 March 2019.
The referendum asked whether people wished to remain in the EU or leave, both Labour and the Conservatives have indicated that they will respect the outcome of the referendum (no matter how stupid or damaging they may believe it to be), but the only mandate that the referendum provides (because of the lack of supporting information contained within the ballot paper) is to no longer be a member of the EU.
Without finding a way of dispassionately asking every single person that voted in favour of leaving for their reason(s) for so voting, any step taken, beyond the specific outcome that people voted for is not democratically valid.
Neither the Conservatives, nor Labour, are advocating remaining within the EU at present, both are stating that the UK will leave the EU.
I struggle to see how that is "refusing to carry out Brexit".
Find me a single Leave voter who wishes for all of these: to continue to have free movement of labour, control by the ECJ and to remain in the single market and customs union. Just one person will do. Because this is where we are heading.
Nigel Farage did:
Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing
Aaron Banks did:
Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK
Matthew Elliot did:
The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people
I emphasised ALL of them, because this is what is now on offer-find me one Leaver now or then who would be happy with ALL of them.
Do you think Remainers should care what Leavers want when it has been clear all along that Leavers could not give a fig about the views and fears of the approx 50% of the country who voted Remain?
If a man has 52 potatoes and another man has 48 potatoes, who has the most potatoes?
So to sum up Remainers on here today:
1. The Leave vote was apparently anti immigrant and racist, but now free movement is off the table 'nobody knows' what Leavers voted for. I would get yourself checked out down the amnesia clinic , lads.
2. The referendum, the parliamentary votes and the General election do not mean that politicians should carry out Brexit, because Remainers just know, because they have been told by big business presumably, that Brexit is just 'bad'. And because remainers 'know' this all those democratic decisions are invalid they do not count. You guys would do well in the Chinese Communist Party, which takes a similiar view towards popular sovereignty.
3. No Remainers appear to be keen on a General election to settle this. I wonder if this is because they worry that the open contempt for democracy now being shown by our elites will lead to the emergence of a new polticial movement which they will not like. Well, by welcomimg the Tories and Labour's cynicism towards the electorate, you made the bed , guys.
I am sorry to be blunt but I think you are talking rubbish. Certainly about me as a remainer and others here as well.
1) Free movement has never been off the table because there is free movement on the Irish Border and as yet no contradictory suggestion has been put forward.
2) Is once again about what brexit actually is. I suggest that remainers here are saying have brexit, you won, this is your gig, get on with it 'carry out brexit'. I don't particularly care whether big business says brexit is 'bad' or 'good'. I think before any statement like that somebody somewhere should say what brexit actually is. Theresa May says brexit means brexit, and as far as I can tell there has (possibly up until Friday) never been and advance on that.
3) I think you may find that I and others are all in favour of a brexit-based General Election. Bring it on. I am happy to start with my 48 potatoes to your 52 because I feel that my potatoes are more wholesome than yours, and when peeled and diced, and the weevils, mold and maggots are discarded my potatoes are more than yours.
Hopefully this will kill the half baked May proposals that the EU will throw out anyway if presented. It covered goods which are an ever falling element of exports to the EU, but in which we have a trade deficit with the EU and ignores services which are an ever growing proportion of EU exports in which we enjoy a surplus.
We don't need to be in the customs union, a protection racket to raise tax on non EU imports with the UK acting as an EU tax collector. 99% of all businesses are small businesses and 90% of them don't export to the EU, they employ over half of UK employees and over 70% are in services industries which in turn generates over 70% of private sector turnover.
No Brexit is better than what we are sliding towards. The May proposal is a half baked cake and having a small bit of it to eat. The EU will regard it no different had it been the original aspiration of having a fully baked cake and eating as much as we could keep.
Brexit without the ability to move to greater free trade and elimination of third country import taxes is non-starter as far as I am concerned. We should be able to obtain access to the single market on free trade terms the EU would have no problem agreeing with any other State and can eliminate the Irish border issue at a stroke if it is more important than screwing consumers for taxes.
If we had provided clarity at the outset on what we wanted, as opposed to what we thought the EU might agree to, in the hope the sentiment would be reciprocated, we would not be in this situation and each side would be clear on what the outcome of no deal represented and what was worth sacrificing.
It's sheer utter incompetence of government and lack of confidence of Remainers in the nation's ability to forge a new 21st century relationship with a changing World outside of an EU trapped in the 20th century.
If by having confidence in the UK's ability to thrive outside the restrictions of an inward looking, ever less relevant EU, I am accused of "patriotism" then I am guilty.
Remainers exhibit the classic signs of negligent conservatism preferring to make no changes comfortable in the cosy idea that the past will be repeated and taking a new direction whose outcome can't be measured against the past cannot be contemplated.
Such people are typically the well educated career politicians, academics and bureaucrats, who do not welcome disruption of their comfortable lives through change or innovation. History shows us that nations decay and new nations prosper. Assuming the future will be an extension of the past, regardless of events outside your control, is the fast track to decay.
@seth plum will you ever be honest to yourself and admit that "democracy" is judged against a very simple barometer which is how close are the citizens to controlling the decision making process. You can't vote for a party in Poland or Germany or Latvia which will feed into the EU "democratic" process whose policies you prefer to any UK party, and presumably you don't care and don't think it relevant. Nor is there an EU Manifesto on which your MEP can state positions before you vote for him, because it will be the Heads of State who decide what can be voted on agreed behind closed doors. The Heads of State can't stand on a platform of EU policies as they don't know what policies each other will put forward let alone agree to. By contrast, in the UK you could vote for the SNP if they put a candidate up in your constituency.
I can accept that's how it must be, I don't see much alternatives, but please don't kid yourself the EU runs a sound "democratic" system.
The EU is as near to being a functioning democracy as Russia, but good luck with your continuing non-convincing arguments.
You always ignore the views of the people who run the large businesses providing jobs and small business opportunities to communities up and down the country. Do you think they are bluffing when they say they will have to move their operations out of the UK in the event of not being in the single market and not having a frictionless border?
No way could Her Majesty's Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary be described as a racist for talking about black people as piccaninnies with watermelon smiles. That is simply misquoting the poor man out of context. The more accurate description might be that he is a true prince of darkness utter and complete Tory c*nt of the first order.
Hopefully this will kill the half baked May proposals that the EU will throw out anyway if presented. It covered goods which are an ever falling element of exports to the EU, but in which we have a trade deficit with the EU and ignores services which are an ever growing proportion of EU exports in which we enjoy a surplus.
We don't need to be in the customs union, a protection racket to raise tax on non EU imports with the UK acting as an EU tax collector. 99% of all businesses are small businesses and 90% of them don't export to the EU, they employ over half of UK employees and over 70% are in services industries which in turn generates over 70% of private sector turnover.
No Brexit is better than what we are sliding towards. The May proposal is a half baked cake and having a small bit of it to eat. The EU will regard it no different had it been the original aspiration of having a fully baked cake and eating as much as we could keep.
Brexit without the ability to move to greater free trade and elimination of third country import taxes is non-starter as far as I am concerned. We should be able to obtain access to the single market on free trade terms the EU would have no problem agreeing with any other State and can eliminate the Irish border issue at a stroke if it is more important than screwing consumers for taxes.
If we had provided clarity at the outset on what we wanted, as opposed to what we thought the EU might agree to, in the hope the sentiment would be reciprocated, we would not be in this situation and each side would be clear on what the outcome of no deal represented and what was worth sacrificing.
It's sheer utter incompetence of government and lack of confidence of Remainers in the nation's ability to forge a new 21st century relationship with a changing World outside of an EU trapped in the 20th century.
If by having confidence in the UK's ability to thrive outside the restrictions of an inward looking, ever less relevant EU, I am accused of "patriotism" then I am guilty.
Remainers exhibit the classic signs of negligent conservatism preferring to make no changes comfortable in the cosy idea that the past will be repeated and taking a new direction whose outcome can't be measured against the past cannot be contemplated.
Such people are typically the well educated career politicians, academics and bureaucrats, who do not welcome disruption of their comfortable lives through change or innovation. History shows us that nations decay and new nations prosper. Assuming the future will be an extension of the past, regardless of events outside your control, is the fast track to decay.
@seth plum will you ever be honest to yourself and admit that "democracy" is judged against a very simple barometer which is how close are the citizens to controlling the decision making process. You can't vote for a party in Poland or Germany or Latvia which will feed into the EU "democratic" process whose policies you prefer to any UK party, and presumably you don't care and don't think it relevant. Nor is there an EU Manifesto on which your MEP can state positions before you vote for him, because it will be the Heads of State who decide what can be voted on agreed behind closed doors. The Heads of State can't stand on a platform of EU policies as they don't know what policies each other will put forward let alone agree to. By contrast, in the UK you could vote for the SNP if they put a candidate up in your constituency.
I can accept that's how it must be, I don't see much alternatives, but please don't kid yourself the EU runs a sound "democratic" system.
The EU is as near to being a functioning democracy as Russia, but good luck with your continuing non-convincing arguments.
Read your last sentence. If you even remotely believe that is true then you are a lot thicker than even your average brexiters.
FFS. Last day of my hols and I am having to catch up with the country's political class falling apart while Gareth Southgate and Gary Lineker provide unprecedented global leadership. WTF. I cannot cope.
Ok, Bojo? Can anyone tell me why he has resigned?
It can't be the Stadium because we haven't nailed him. Yet.
- is it the Garden Bridge? - Is it the buses? - is it the British mum still going out of her mind in an Iranian jail? Or is it simply for, as Alfie put it in peaky Blinders, being a **** ?
No way could Her Majesty's Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary be described as a racist for talking about black people as piccaninnies with watermelon smiles. That is simply misquoting the poor man out of context. The more accurate description might be that he is a true prince of darkness utter and complete Tory c*nt of the first order.
Careful now, that's your new Prime Minister you're talking about!
Time for a General Election in which both parties tell the truth about their attitude towards Brexit, including Labour who should not try to con their Brexit supporters again.
Time for a General Election in which both parties tell the truth about their attitude towards Brexit, including Labour who should not try to con their Brexit supporters again.
I agree with you, especially the Labour position on brexit. If there was a General Election then choices will need to be made by the voters.
Are Norway in the EU? Are Switzwerland? Serious questions for those that cannot grasp that there are different degrees of Brexit! If you answer these questions honestly and accurately, you cannot claim the Brexit this country is heading for isn't Brexit! The thing is, we do need clarification what the people want, but the hard line Brexiters don't want that for some reason!
I didn't realise that when you voted UnicornLeave, that the ballot paper suddenly presented you with a range of options, on the type of leave you wanted.
Are Norway in the EU? Are Switzwerland? Serious questions for those that cannot grasp that there are different degrees of Brexit! If you answer these questions honestly and accurately, you cannot claim the Brexit this country is heading for isn't Brexit! The thing is, we do need clarification what the people want, but the hard line Brexiters don't want that for some reason!
Then let us have an election where one party stands for Remain, one for Swiss option and a new party for a clean break.If this had happened before we would not be in such a mess.
In terms of the Labour position on Brexit, it isn't that hard to be confused by it unless you are trying to be. It is not too disimilar to Teresa May's agreed position after Chequers. Labour faces a similar problem in that it has its own splits but Corbyn has explained it and people seem to be playing dumb. They might not like it or agree but the position has been set out!
Time for a General Election in which both parties tell the truth about their attitude towards Brexit, including Labour who should not try to con their Brexit supporters again.
And unlike in the Referendum and the last election all the large businesses and employers in the UK will, I think, campaign vigorously, as they have in recent weeks, against anything other than a very soft Brexit. The "Fuck Business" party will struggle to deal with the seriously diminished support they will get from big business.
Why don't we have a referendum and ask the people if they want a soft Brexit or a hard one? Surely doing this earlier would have provided a lot of clarity and ensure there was no need to put up with all the nonsense we have had to over the last couple of years!
People (including on here) often talk about Remainers being unpatriotic, traitors and 'cowards', the same insults being levelled at people living abroad. I don't think there has ever been such a divisive, self-serving figure such as Boris Johnson though, who quite easily qualifies for these descriptions due to his naked self-interest and happiness to do damage to his own country to serve his own ego and ambitions.
Comments
However I have said it because people on this thread have simply said that the EU is 'undemocratic'. It is not, nor ever has been. It is a version of democracy.
If you wish to state that the simple barometric measure is how close citizens are to controlling the democratic process that is in itself an interesting debate.
You might find that UK citizens like you and I have always been under the auspices of more or less the same ruling class for the whole of our lives, indeed you allude to that establishment when you talk of 'the well educated career politicians, academics and bureaucrats, who do not welcome disruption of their comfortable lives through change or innovation.'
I certainly don't feel particularly close to that never changing establishment, and when you throw in the first past the post system, the House of Lords and Monarchy it feels even more alien.
So the debate is there to be had. You are right that I would feel more comfortable with for example a Romanian environmental politician than with a UK politician in the DUP (which ironically is the close at hand force you allude to).
I repeat the debate about 'democracy' is a live one. And I respect your yearning for your democracy to be more homespun as it were, even if I didn't respect it you won the vote anyway. However no way do I accept in any 'obvious' sense that the EU is less democratic than the UK. Different of course, and different enough it turns out for you to win and me to lose in the referendum.
I notice that one of your major themes is about trade and the financials, and I wholly understand your frustration with the process (I share that frustration) and you seem to say have done with it, leave without a deal. I understand that too.
However you know what I will ask now, how will that no deal exit manifest itself in actual detailed day to day practical terms, especially on the newly established hard land border on the island of Ireland?
The only solution I can see is an expensive one, a Trump like wall or something close to that.
Without a physical barrier what would be the consequence of a million EU citizens strolling across the land border from the Republic/EU into the UK?
So to sum up Remainers on here today:
1. The Leave vote was apparently anti immigrant and racist, but now free movement is off the table 'nobody knows' what Leavers voted for. I would get yourself checked out down the amnesia clinic , lads.
2. The referendum, the parliamentary votes and the General election do not mean that politicians should carry out Brexit, because Remainers just know, because they have been told by big business presumably, that Brexit is just 'bad'. And because remainers 'know' this all those democratic decisions are invalid they do not count. You guys would do well in the Chinese Communist Party, which takes a similiar view towards popular sovereignty.
3. No Remainers appear to be keen on a General election to settle this. I wonder if this is because they worry that the open contempt for democracy now being shown by our elites will lead to the emergence of a new polticial movement which they will not like. Well, by welcomimg the Tories and Labour's cynicism towards the electorate, you made the bed , guys.
1) Free movement has never been off the table because there is free movement on the Irish Border and as yet no contradictory suggestion has been put forward.
2) Is once again about what brexit actually is. I suggest that remainers here are saying have brexit, you won, this is your gig, get on with it 'carry out brexit'. I don't particularly care whether big business says brexit is 'bad' or 'good'. I think before any statement like that somebody somewhere should say what brexit actually is. Theresa May says brexit means brexit, and as far as I can tell there has (possibly up until Friday) never been and advance on that.
3) I think you may find that I and others are all in favour of a brexit-based General Election. Bring it on.
I am happy to start with my 48 potatoes to your 52 because I feel that my potatoes are more wholesome than yours, and when peeled and diced, and the weevils, mold and maggots are discarded my potatoes are more than yours.
Bring on an election asap.
TM must be toast.
just a shame Labour chose Corbyn
The more accurate description might be that he is a true prince of darkness utter and complete Tory c*nt of the first order.
Ageing well this
As Barry Davies once said, "interesting, very interesting".
Ok, Bojo? Can anyone tell me why he has resigned?
It can't be the Stadium because we haven't nailed him. Yet.
- is it the Garden Bridge?
- Is it the buses?
- is it the British mum still going out of her mind in an Iranian jail?
Or is it simply for, as Alfie put it in peaky Blinders, being a **** ?
If there was a General Election then choices will need to be made by the voters.
UnicornLeave, that the ballot paper suddenly presented you with a range of options, on the type of leave you wanted.On the day Pro-remain's campaign was complacent focused on attacking the Pro-Brexit campaigners and failed.
Pro-Brexit targeted people's weak points to ensure they won over enough votes to win the referendum. They lied and cheated.
Neither party did enough to kick the younger generation in to gear to vote. As such we ended up in the pile of shite position we find ourselves in.
Let's get this non-binding decision cancelled and swept under the rug until we have a reputable and tangible option that looks worthwhile...