I didn't realise Davies had resigned when I initially posted this morning. I thought common sense had finally and belatedly broken out! May now has to put Gove, who was at the heart of the Brexit vote, in charge of negotiations. I can't stand the bloke but at least he showed common sense yesterday on Andrew Marr in getting behind the Chequers plan. But what has seemingly happened is the hardline Brexiters have thrown their rattles out of their prams.
What is blindingly obvious, or at least should be, is that the referendum was criminally ill thought out. Too many people are saying, that isn't what I voted for, but they can only speak for themselves. Polls are showing the majority want a soft Brexit - that is the most reliable indicator and it is what the government is trying to deliver- where big issues like Northern Ireland can be resolved. There had to be clarity in the vote what leave meant. In all honesty, Cameron wasn't expecting the outcome but history will not judge him positively.
Maybe, just maybe it is time to ask the British people what they actually want from Brexit. EIther that, or we need an election to sort this out. It is pointless people saying a Norway deal or Switzerland deal is not leaving. Both are not in the EU and before the referendum we were being told by leavers that they were doing all right as a reason to vote for Brexit!!!
At least the Government now has a position. I needed one when the negotiations started but those on the other side of the table know what we want. It may not be quite what everybody wants or even anybody, but you have to go in with a position.
It is impossible for May to find a position to keep the hard Brexiters happy or even the hard remainers, but the opportunity is now there to negotiate a sensible Brexit. It has finally dawned on the government that their preferred position and Labour's preferred position is not that different. This perversely gives her power against the hardline Brexiters and the support of remainers in the Tory party who have warned her where the line in the sand is for them. The hardline Brexiters can only try to scupper it and possibly kill Brexit altogether or suck it up. I would prefer there not to be a Brexit, but am relieved the hard Brexit now looks very unlikely.
What has been great is that the country has come together over the football. It has been a divided country and I would ask some Brexiters to reconsider their misguided notion that wanting Brexit is some sort of patriotic act. People who wish to remain, or even want a soft Brexit, are no less patriotic and suggesting otherwise destroys your own argument. Surely wanting what you think is best for your country, and feeling passionately about it is patriotic.
Not that I'm being picky or anything, but I'm not too sure that the football (for all that Tyrone's demolition of Cork over the weekend was impressive) is bringing the country together, unless the everyone else has seceded from the Union, and forgotten to tell Arlene....
I didn't realise Davies had resigned when I initially posted this morning. I thought common sense had finally and belatedly broken out! May now has to put Gove, who was at the heart of the Brexit vote, in charge of negotiations. I can't stand the bloke but at least he showed common sense yesterday on Andrew Marr in getting behind the Chequers plan. But what has seemingly happened is the hardline Brexiters have thrown their rattles out of their prams.
What is blindingly obvious, or at least should be, is that the referendum was criminally ill thought out. Too many people are saying, that isn't what I voted for, but they can only speak for themselves. Polls are showing the majority want a soft Brexit - that is the most reliable indicator and it is what the government is trying to deliver- where big issues like Northern Ireland can be resolved. There had to be clarity in the vote what leave meant. In all honesty, Cameron wasn't expecting the outcome but history will not judge him positively.
Maybe, just maybe it is time to ask the British people what they actually want from Brexit. EIther that, or we need an election to sort this out. It is pointless people saying a Norway deal or Switzerland deal is not leaving. Both are not in the EU and before the referendum we were being told by leavers that they were doing all right as a reason to vote for Brexit!!!
You say common sense, I say positioning himself between two camps ready for a leadership bid.
Boris will be fuming. Davis stolen centre stage and should their be a leadership contest he’s now seen to be the first to climb into the ring. Expect a lot of huff and puff from BoJo this morning but I don’t think he’s quite ready to start pissing in just yet. Would make him look like he’s just following Davis.
The whole country has been taken for a ride in the name of Tory in-fighting and jostling for power. What an enormous waste of time and money this has all been.
Seems some very simple political shenanigans going on.
May painted herself into a corner with her self inflicted 'red lines' in an attempt to win an election and secure herself as a PM with a healthy majority. She did not give a monkeys about whether this was the best outcome for the UK.
She came majorly unstuck with that and it's taken two years of trying to find any other option that she could dress up as something other than aligning ourselves with the EU on things like regulation. Simple fact is, unless we want to seriously throw the baby out with the bathwater, and as much as some Leavers are prepared to do that, there isn't one. Hence she's rebranding mirroring the single market as adopting a "common rule book" and pretending we will opt out if the EU makes a regulation we don't like. The reality is we won't have a choice nor will we have a say.
Nor will the EU be prepared to agree to a "single market lite" arrangement or some sort of associate EU membership where we pick and chose which bits suit. They couldn't have been clearer on that right from the start. She knows this but is trying to play up to the whole EU = obstructive agenda and shift the blame for governments ineptitde.
She's still trying to save her own skin and putting the Tory party before her country and if we had an opposition worthy of the name she would have gone by now.
As for Davis? He's a duplicitous, thicko who'd been sidelined months ago anyway and was just waiting for his opportunity to distance himself before the whole house of cards came tumbling down on his watch.
Seems some very simple political shenanigans going on.
May painted herself into a corner with her self inflicted 'red lines' in an attempt to win an election and secure herself as a PM with a healthy majority. She did not give a monkeys about whether this was the best outcome for the UK.
She came majorly unstuck with that and it's taken two years of trying to find any other option that she could dress up as something other than aligning ourselves with the EU on things like regulation. Simple fact is, unless we want to seriously throw the baby out with the bathwater, and as much as some Leavers are prepared to do that, there isn't one. Hence she's rebranding mirroring the single market as a adopting a "common rule book" and pretending we will opt out if the EU makes a regulation we don't like. The reality is we won't have a choice nor will we have a say. Nor will the EU be prepared to agree to a "single market lite" arrangement or some sort of associate EU membership where we pick and chose which bits suit. They couldn't have been clearer on that right from the start. She knows this but is trying to play up to the whole EU = obstructive agenda and shift the blame for governments ineptitde.
She's still trying to save her own skin and putting the Tory party before her country and if we had an opposition worthy of the name she would have gone by now.
As for Davis? He's a duplicitous, thicko who'd been sidelined months ago anyway and was just waiting for his opportunity to distance himself before the whole house of cards came tumbling down on his watch.
Davis is way out of his depth and comes across as an arrogant fool - sadly he's not the only one.
Seems some very simple political shenanigans going on.
She did not give a monkeys about whether this was the best outcome for the UK.
She's still trying to save her own skin and putting the Tory party before her country and if we had an opposition worthy of the name she would have gone by now.
As there is no evidence to support this supposition it could be equally valid to say that she looked around at the alternatives in her own party, and also the Labour party and realised there was no hope for the country, and had the balls to take on what was clearly a very poisoned chalice.
To constantly harp on that this person or that person doesn't care about the country is just shouting into a bucket. And pointless except for peer gratification.
I once had to look after a all party commission of MP's and of the lot, only one struck me as having anything other than their own interest at heart. But at least I learnt that first hand through conversation and observation over 10 days.
Please! let us not become exasperated. The EU simply awaits the finer points of this latest UK government position. Perhaps this new position isn't acceptable to the EU but it's a step towards Norway (or BINO). And that winds up Rees Mogg etc.
May was in Zugzuang for a year with no moves available. Now she makes a move leading to Davis (and others?) resigning. She's waiting for M.Barnier to politely refuse her offer but he will make suggestions as to what might work with the EU27.
It's all very tricky and we are starting to see see some fraying at the edges. Obviously it's possible that bad things might happen but that's all part of a shift in position.
Either the UK is serious about a deal or not... time will tell. But IDS, Davis, Fox and Johnson will have nothing to do with the final settlement. Bunch of gambling clowns who don't really care...
If our most productive sectors stop growing or even start to emmigrate then we haven't got a hope of improving productivity. For productivity equals GDP per capita. Since Farage et al have convinced the nation to prioritise fishing over banking and car manufacturing it's not good.
Or have they? "F**king business" (as per Johnson) is fighting back. They are spelling out the size of the GDP shock. And we can be sure that the Chancellor has an extremely precise appraisal of what 2019 no deal might look like.
Some take the approach to deregulate and reduce the cost of labour etc but that's not what people voted for. Some speculate that the Brexit vote was a reaction to many years of a neoliberal deregulation and austerity approach.
The Cabinet are playing with an explosive situation and May is trying to bluff her way into a negotiating position. Good luck to her as nobody wants to see UK PLC tank. But we should be vigilant to propaganda etc. Fact is that Q1 growth was 0.2% and Q2 won't be much higher. Contrast with Germany and France where workers have seen a 10% increase in real wages since the crash in 2008.
Not predicting disaster but just calling out disingenuous unicorn related bullshit. The UK is in stasis - question is what's next. And will Q2 numbers sink in and persuade 2-3% to shift their stance in the polls?
The fact is that 33% of the country are entrenched on each side of the divide. Some view that as anti-democratic or at least horribly split. But it's a perfect scenario for people to attempt to win over support.
As @seth plum states repeatedly, you Brexit, you fix it. For Remain and the left in opposition the challenge is clear. And Unite / Momentum appear to be shifting Labour towards a second vote option. Of course they want to stop hard Brexit and they are using the democratic process to do so.
Right now, May is moving towards a white paper and position which softens the approach. It won't be accepted by Barnier and she will move a little more in a month or two.
A first thought is that like the frog in the water which is gently heating up, will the hard Brexiteers suddenly jump out... or will they stay in? In actual fact the 19th century assumptions about frogs have been disproved. However the web links to a much more apposite concept: the Sorites paradox:
This discusses at what point does a heap of sand stop being a heap of sand when one removes one grain at a time?
So at what point does Brexit stop being Brexit? And when will the alt-right start screaming blue murder?
There is another dimension: At what point on the pendulum is the outcome still acceptable to the majority?
The whole country has been taken for a ride in the name of Tory in-fighting and jostling for power. What an enormous waste of time and money this has all been.
All in all this appears to be a very unproductive use of four or five years. As a nation we have to go through thus so as to come out the other side. Thank Nigel Farage and David Cameron for a waste of five years - perhaps that will be the Labour line at the next election as they focus on real issues?
Gove was a leading Brexiter during the referendum. He seemed to be putting his weight behind the agreement yesterday, so he is the ideal man to be put in charge. Davis should be happy - he was chief negotiator when it was unclear what his position was. The sleepover at Chequers finally gave negotiators a government position to talk around. He should have been delighted, unless of course he was too entrenched in his own position, which made him an unsuitable Brexit minister.
If anybody in the cabinet wants to undermine the Prime Minister they now know they have to resign or be sacked. There is no political consensus for their position in the Commons or Lords so throwing their rattles out of the pram will only cause their party to implode. It won't win them the Brexit they want. In fact, it risks any Brexit at all!
The whole country has been taken for a ride in the name of Tory in-fighting and jostling for power. What an enormous waste of time and money this has all been.
None of these gobshites should be allowed anywhere near parliament ever again.
The whole country has been taken for a ride in the name of Tory in-fighting and jostling for power. What an enormous waste of time and money this has all been.
None of these gobshites should be allowed anywhere near parliament every again.
You can guarantee one of the turds responsible for this mess will end up leading the Tory Party.
As for Davis? He's a duplicitous, thicko who'd been sidelined months ago anyway and was just waiting for his opportunity to distance himself before the whole house of cards came tumbling down on his watch.
And for unpopular balance, an alternative view might be that he has taken a career ending decision for the good of the country, and who could have resigned long ago from what is clearly an un winnable task.
The boy brought up on a south London council estate by his single mum, who gained a masters degree, a molecular science degree and a couple of years at Harvard all funded by his time in the TA SAS, and almost 2 decades in business behind him,probably is, as you inform us, and by your standards, a thicko.
I suspect he's very cruel to animals, hates football, and spends his time doing evil deeds to the liberal elite just for his own self serving pleasure. The absolute bastard.
Ok. I will happily admit I got it wrong. I should have never voted to leave. Please can we have a 2nd Referendum & I will vote to remain. I expect hundreds of thousands will do the same & the UK can stay in the EU. You can then thank me & my kind for helping to save the country.
However....I will then forthwith never accept what any politician/party says ever again. I will continue to vote in General Elections but will either vote for the Monster Raving Loony party or spoil my ballot paper with the words LIAR or NUMPTY.
As for Davis? He's a duplicitous, thicko who'd been sidelined months ago anyway and was just waiting for his opportunity to distance himself before the whole house of cards came tumbling down on his watch.
And for unpopular balance, an alternative view might be that he has taken a career ending decision for the good of the country, and who could have resigned long ago from what is clearly an un winnable task.
The boy brought up on a south London council estate by his single mum, who gained a masters degree, a molecular science degree and a couple of years at Harvard all funded by his time in the TA SAS, and almost 2 decades in business behind him,probably is, as you inform us, and by your standards, a thicko.
I suspect he's very cruel to animals, hates football, and spends his time doing evil deeds to the liberal elite just for his own self serving pleasure. The absolute bastard.
He's been absolutely hopeless in his role and as far as I can see that's what we're judging him on. The one thing a lot of our politicians are good at is bailing out - Cameron the supreme example.
Ok. I will happily admit I got it wrong. I should have never voted to leave. Please can we have a 2nd Referendum & I will vote to remain. I expect hundreds of thousands will do the same & the UK can stay in the EU. You can then thank me & my kind for helping to save the country.
However....I will then forthwith never accept what any politician/party says ever again. I will continue to vote in General Elections but will either vote for the Monster Raving Loony party or spoil my ballot paper with the words LIAR or NUMPTY.
good day to you all.
Possibly the most positive thing you’ve ever posted ;0)
As for Davis? He's a duplicitous, thicko who'd been sidelined months ago anyway and was just waiting for his opportunity to distance himself before the whole house of cards came tumbling down on his watch.
And for unpopular balance, an alternative view might be that he has taken a career ending decision for the good of the country, and who could have resigned long ago from what is clearly an un winnable task.
The boy brought up on a south London council estate by his single mum, who gained a masters degree, a molecular science degree and a couple of years at Harvard all funded by his time in the TA SAS, and almost 2 decades in business behind him,probably is, as you inform us, and by your standards, a thicko.
I suspect he's very cruel to animals, hates football, and spends his time doing evil deeds to the liberal elite just for his own self serving pleasure. The absolute bastard.
For the good of the country? What might that be then? That the so-called and incomprehensible 'will of the people' comes before everything else?
Britain's former housing minister Dominic Raab appointed the new Brexit secretary
On 3 November 2016, and in response to the decision of the High Court in R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union on whether Her Majesty's Government was entitled to notify an intention to leave the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union without a vote in Parliament, Raab stated that in the 2016 EU membership referendum "the British people gave a clear mandate for the UK Government to leave the EU and take back control of our borders, laws, money and trade. It is disappointing that today the court has chosen to ignore their decision". He went on to state that the decision was "a plain attempt to block Brexit by people who are out of touch with the country and refuse to accept the result. However, the vote to leave the EU was clear and they should not seek to obstruct it"
As for Davis? He's a duplicitous, thicko who'd been sidelined months ago anyway and was just waiting for his opportunity to distance himself before the whole house of cards came tumbling down on his watch.
And for unpopular balance, an alternative view might be that he has taken a career ending decision for the good of the country, and who could have resigned long ago from what is clearly an un winnable task.
The boy brought up on a south London council estate by his single mum, who gained a masters degree, a molecular science degree and a couple of years at Harvard all funded by his time in the TA SAS, and almost 2 decades in business behind him,probably is, as you inform us, and by your standards, a thicko.
I suspect he's very cruel to animals, hates football, and spends his time doing evil deeds to the liberal elite just for his own self serving pleasure. The absolute bastard.
For the good of the country? What might that be then? That the so-called and incomprehensible 'will of the people' comes before everything else?
If it is not the will of the people it is the will of the people already in charge. Which do you prefer? This has always been about democracy more than anything else. The government and most of the opposition and all their cheerleaders in big business want it to be about what they want, not what the people voted for. The Brexit vote was the most radical thing that has happened in Britain in our lefetimes and now it is close to being ignored by those in charge.
Both main parties lied to the electorate last year when they said they were in favour of Brexit. Their duplicity meant that no third pro-Brexit force was likely to emerge at that stage, in fact it effectively killed off UKIP. The 17.4 m who voted No have little representation in Government or Opposition. This may be a cause of satisfaction for some Remainers, who will get their way-but it should be deeply worrying for anybody who cares about democracy-or indeed anybody who hopes or expects change to happen through the political process. All we will be left with is deep and widespread cynicism. If the wishes of 17.4 million people can be ignored, what does that mean for any attempt to challenge the status quo through the ballot?
As for Davis? He's a duplicitous, thicko who'd been sidelined months ago anyway and was just waiting for his opportunity to distance himself before the whole house of cards came tumbling down on his watch.
And for unpopular balance, an alternative view might be that he has taken a career ending decision for the good of the country, and who could have resigned long ago from what is clearly an un winnable task.
The boy brought up on a south London council estate by his single mum, who gained a masters degree, a molecular science degree and a couple of years at Harvard all funded by his time in the TA SAS, and almost 2 decades in business behind him,probably is, as you inform us, and by your standards, a thicko.
I suspect he's very cruel to animals, hates football, and spends his time doing evil deeds to the liberal elite just for his own self serving pleasure. The absolute bastard.
For the good of the country? What might that be then? That the so-called and incomprehensible 'will of the people' comes before everything else?
If it is not the will of the people it is the will of the people already in charge. Which do you prefer? This has always been about democracy more than anything else. The government and most of the opposition and all their cheerleaders in big business want it to be about what they want, not what the people voted for. The Brexit vote was the most radical thing that has happened in Britain in our lefetimes and now it is close to being ignored by those in charge.
Both main parties lied to the electorate last year when they said they were in favour of Brexit. Their duplicity meant that no third pro-Brexit force was likely to emerge at that stage, in fact it effectively killed off UKIP. The 17.4 m who voted No have little representation in Government or Opposition. This may be a cause of satisfaction for some Remainers, who will get their way-but it should be deeply worrying for anybody who cares about democracy-or indeed anybody who hopes or expects change to happen through the political process. All we will be left with is deep and widespread cynicism. If the wishes of 17.4 million people can be ignored, what does that mean for any attempt to challenge the status quo through the ballot?
But you are quite comfortable with UK electoral fraud
Comments
What is blindingly obvious, or at least should be, is that the referendum was criminally ill thought out. Too many people are saying, that isn't what I voted for, but they can only speak for themselves. Polls are showing the majority want a soft Brexit - that is the most reliable indicator and it is what the government is trying to deliver- where big issues like Northern Ireland can be resolved. There had to be clarity in the vote what leave meant. In all honesty, Cameron wasn't expecting the outcome but history will not judge him positively.
Maybe, just maybe it is time to ask the British people what they actually want from Brexit. EIther that, or we need an election to sort this out. It is pointless people saying a Norway deal or Switzerland deal is not leaving. Both are not in the EU and before the referendum we were being told by leavers that they were doing all right as a reason to vote for Brexit!!!
May painted herself into a corner with her self inflicted 'red lines' in an attempt to win an election and secure herself as a PM with a healthy majority. She did not give a monkeys about whether this was the best outcome for the UK.
She came majorly unstuck with that and it's taken two years of trying to find any other option that she could dress up as something other than aligning ourselves with the EU on things like regulation. Simple fact is, unless we want to seriously throw the baby out with the bathwater, and as much as some Leavers are prepared to do that, there isn't one. Hence she's rebranding mirroring the single market as adopting a "common rule book" and pretending we will opt out if the EU makes a regulation we don't like. The reality is we won't have a choice nor will we have a say.
Nor will the EU be prepared to agree to a "single market lite" arrangement or some sort of associate EU membership where we pick and chose which bits suit. They couldn't have been clearer on that right from the start. She knows this but is trying to play up to the whole EU = obstructive agenda and shift the blame for governments ineptitde.
She's still trying to save her own skin and putting the Tory party before her country and if we had an opposition worthy of the name she would have gone by now.
As for Davis? He's a duplicitous, thicko who'd been sidelined months ago anyway and was just waiting for his opportunity to distance himself before the whole house of cards came tumbling down on his watch.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-donor-arron-banks-met-russian-ambassador-11-times/
To constantly harp on that this person or that person doesn't care about the country is just shouting into a bucket. And pointless except for peer gratification.
I once had to look after a all party commission of MP's and of the lot, only one struck me as having anything other than their own interest at heart. But at least I learnt that first hand through conversation and observation over 10 days.
May was in Zugzuang for a year with no moves available. Now she makes a move leading to Davis (and others?) resigning. She's waiting for M.Barnier to politely refuse her offer but he will make suggestions as to what might work with the EU27.
It's all very tricky and we are starting to see see some fraying at the edges. Obviously it's possible that bad things might happen but that's all part of a shift in position.
Either the UK is serious about a deal or not... time will tell. But IDS, Davis, Fox and Johnson will have nothing to do with the final settlement. Bunch of gambling clowns who don't really care...
If our most productive sectors stop growing or even start to emmigrate then we haven't got a hope of improving productivity. For productivity equals GDP per capita. Since Farage et al have convinced the nation to prioritise fishing over banking and car manufacturing it's not good.
Or have they? "F**king business" (as per Johnson) is fighting back. They are spelling out the size of the GDP shock. And we can be sure that the Chancellor has an extremely precise appraisal of what 2019 no deal might look like.
Some take the approach to deregulate and reduce the cost of labour etc but that's not what people voted for. Some speculate that the Brexit vote was a reaction to many years of a neoliberal deregulation and austerity approach.
The Cabinet are playing with an explosive situation and May is trying to bluff her way into a negotiating position. Good luck to her as nobody wants to see UK PLC tank. But we should be vigilant to propaganda etc. Fact is that Q1 growth was 0.2% and Q2 won't be much higher. Contrast with Germany and France where workers have seen a 10% increase in real wages since the crash in 2008.
Not predicting disaster but just calling out disingenuous unicorn related bullshit. The UK is in stasis - question is what's next. And will Q2 numbers sink in and persuade 2-3% to shift their stance in the polls?
The fact is that 33% of the country are entrenched on each side of the divide. Some view that as anti-democratic or at least horribly split. But it's a perfect scenario for people to attempt to win over support.
As @seth plum states repeatedly, you Brexit, you fix it. For Remain and the left in opposition the challenge is clear. And Unite / Momentum appear to be shifting Labour towards a second vote option. Of course they want to stop hard Brexit and they are using the democratic process to do so.
Right now, May is moving towards a white paper and position which softens the approach. It won't be accepted by Barnier and she will move a little more in a month or two.
A first thought is that like the frog in the water which is gently heating up, will the hard Brexiteers suddenly jump out... or will they stay in? In actual fact the 19th century assumptions about frogs have been disproved. However the web links to a much more apposite concept: the Sorites paradox:
This discusses at what point does a heap of sand stop being a heap of sand when one removes one grain at a time?
So at what point does Brexit stop being Brexit? And when will the alt-right start screaming blue murder?
There is another dimension: At what point on the pendulum is the outcome still acceptable to the majority?
If anybody in the cabinet wants to undermine the Prime Minister they now know they have to resign or be sacked. There is no political consensus for their position in the Commons or Lords so throwing their rattles out of the pram will only cause their party to implode. It won't win them the Brexit they want. In fact, it risks any Brexit at all!
The boy brought up on a south London council estate by his single mum, who gained a masters degree, a molecular science degree and a couple of years at Harvard all funded by his time in the TA SAS, and almost 2 decades in business behind him,probably is, as you inform us, and by your standards, a thicko.
I suspect he's very cruel to animals, hates football, and spends his time doing evil deeds to the liberal elite just for his own self serving pleasure. The absolute bastard.
However....I will then forthwith never accept what any politician/party says ever again. I will continue to vote in General Elections but will either vote for the Monster Raving Loony party or spoil my ballot paper with the words LIAR or NUMPTY.
good day to you all.
What might that be then?
That the so-called and incomprehensible 'will of the people' comes before everything else?
Yet another rabid remainer in charge, Southbank?
When will this shitfest ever end?
Both main parties lied to the electorate last year when they said they were in favour of Brexit. Their duplicity meant that no third pro-Brexit force was likely to emerge at that stage, in fact it effectively killed off UKIP. The 17.4 m who voted No have little representation in Government or Opposition. This may be a cause of satisfaction for some Remainers, who will get their way-but it should be deeply worrying for anybody who cares about democracy-or indeed anybody who hopes or expects change to happen through the political process. All we will be left with is deep and widespread cynicism. If the wishes of 17.4 million people can be ignored, what does that mean for any attempt to challenge the status quo through the ballot?