There are now at least 50% of the British population that would now vote for scrapping Brexit. Labour should be ashamed that they as the only opposition to this government are not offering that alternative to the electorate. Instead Corbyn is creeping around the most important issue this country has faced in a generation playing party politics looking to snide his way into office.
His latest offering has split the PLP and I hope those that oppose him have the bollox to stand up to his three line whip. The man is a national menace.
It would be interesting if you can share that poll - last numbers I saw talked of a three way split between no Brexit, soft brexit and leave everything.
Reducing growth, a slowdown in net immigration plus the pathetic "negotiations" by May and co. were always likely to impact the polls. Especially now that we approach major deadlines.
And still Davis insists there should be a deadline on the Irish backstop! Which part of leaving N.Ireland with no visible land border forever does he not understand?
In principle we might agree that either binning Brexit or staying in the SM/CU is a good outcome. But what Parliamentary manoeuvres will bring this about? Nothing has happened of late to change my view that the fight for staying in the SM should start next April. For if it starts now it will be (and has been) perceived as anti-democratic.
Once the country agrees to stay in the SM it's only a lightbulb moment from staying in the EU. Many might desire that outcome but it just doesn't appear likely to happen.
Of course that view might be wrong or the polls might swing? But if Labour suddenly flip flops by choosing to fight Brexit and then loses it will be finished. That course of action which you pine for appears to be a massive bear trap with the Brexit media having a field day. First Corbyn will be painted as undemocratic and second he will be blamed for the complete and absolute failure of Brexit discussions.
Many have noted that the Tories are in disarray, unable to offer up anything that the EU27 will consider. The deadline is around October followed by Brexit next March.
Labour can swing to the SM option next April long before a transition period ends. Or simply keep going with Customs Union plus alignment. Whether they will shift or not is unclear but if the economy stops growing then people will consider alternatives to this government.
Is that realpolitik? Possibly... Ultimately there are far more important issues such as housing, the NHS, transport, education and aneamic growth. And to deal with those Labour has to defeat the Alt-right, preferably by splitting the Tories. That is the key which will unlock a radical social democratic agenda. And if the country needs to feel some pain so as to shift 5% of the vote then so be it.
Not asking you to agree but simply to recognise that come next April 60-70% of the country will all be on the same side - wanting to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market. The blue party will be the one who will have taken us out of the EU and if the economy tanks they take the blame.
Plenty of people are dubious about the Corbyn McDonnell agenda and in a year or two there will be three options. They either win, make way or the time for a new centrist third way option arrives.
We can all sense your frustration and you are not alone for around one third of the electorate are ardent remainers. It just happens that another third do not want to leave the "common market" and have no time for Fox, Johnson and the rest.
Very good summing up of the problems we face. The problem with politicians is that they are more concerned with their own position than doing whats right. Any meaningful opposition would have had May & her Givernment for toast on this long ago......and I speak as a Brexiter & staunch Tory.
I mainly blame David Cameron & both Referendum parties for all this. Too much posturing & not enough facts. I don't remember the Irish border being discussed on any of the Referendum debates.
If the Irish border had been discussed more during the referendum debates that you saw or participated in, and you had seen that there is no workable solution, would you still have voted to leave?
There are now at least 50% of the British population that would now vote for scrapping Brexit. Labour should be ashamed that they as the only opposition to this government are not offering that alternative to the electorate. Instead Corbyn is creeping around the most important issue this country has faced in a generation playing party politics looking to snide his way into office.
His latest offering has split the PLP and I hope those that oppose him have the bollox to stand up to his three line whip. The man is a national menace.
It would be interesting if you can share that poll - last numbers I saw talked of a three way split between no Brexit, soft brexit and leave everything.
Reducing growth, a slowdown in net immigration plus the pathetic "negotiations" by May and co. were always likely to impact the polls. Especially now that we approach major deadlines.
And still Davis insists there should be a deadline on the Irish backstop! Which part of leaving N.Ireland with no visible land border forever does he not understand?
In principle we might agree that either binning Brexit or staying in the SM/CU is a good outcome. But what Parliamentary manoeuvres will bring this about? Nothing has happened of late to change my view that the fight for staying in the SM should start next April. For if it starts now it will be (and has been) perceived as anti-democratic.
Once the country agrees to stay in the SM it's only a lightbulb moment from staying in the EU. Many might desire that outcome but it just doesn't appear likely to happen.
Of course that view might be wrong or the polls might swing? But if Labour suddenly flip flops by choosing to fight Brexit and then loses it will be finished. That course of action which you pine for appears to be a massive bear trap with the Brexit media having a field day. First Corbyn will be painted as undemocratic and second he will be blamed for the complete and absolute failure of Brexit discussions.
Many have noted that the Tories are in disarray, unable to offer up anything that the EU27 will consider. The deadline is around October followed by Brexit next March.
Labour can swing to the SM option next April long before a transition period ends. Or simply keep going with Customs Union plus alignment. Whether they will shift or not is unclear but if the economy stops growing then people will consider alternatives to this government.
Is that realpolitik? Possibly... Ultimately there are far more important issues such as housing, the NHS, transport, education and aneamic growth. And to deal with those Labour has to defeat the Alt-right, preferably by splitting the Tories. That is the key which will unlock a radical social democratic agenda. And if the country needs to feel some pain so as to shift 5% of the vote then so be it.
Not asking you to agree but simply to recognise that come next April 60-70% of the country will all be on the same side - wanting to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market. The blue party will be the one who will have taken us out of the EU and if the economy tanks they take the blame.
Plenty of people are dubious about the Corbyn McDonnell agenda and in a year or two there will be three options. They either win, make way or the time for a new centrist third way option arrives.
We can all sense your frustration and you are not alone for around one third of the electorate are ardent remainers. It just happens that another third do not want to leave the "common market" and have no time for Fox, Johnson and the rest.
Very good summing up of the problems we face. The problem with politicians is that they are more concerned with their own position than doing whats right. Any meaningful opposition would have had May & her Givernment for toast on this long ago......and I speak as a Brexiter & staunch Tory.
I mainly blame David Cameron & both Referendum parties for all this. Too much posturing & not enough facts. I don't remember the Irish border being discussed on any of the Referendum debates.
I can categorically state that I was banging on about the Irish border before the referendum vote. My antenna was tweaked during the debate for any mention of border discussion and it did come up, but from brexiters their stance was universal and consistent and it was 'we have had a common travel area in Ireland since before the EU was formed, and there is no reason to think that will change or it will be a problem'. Essentially it was dismissed, seen as a minor issue and brexiters thought they could wing it or that there would be a 'work around'. For some brexiters their lip curling distain for Ireland and the Irish was a revival of deep seated and historic hatred and racism towards the Irish which has always existed, and regularly fuelled and topped up by 'the Irish are stupid' Irish 'jokes'.
No-one should underestimate the importance of the appointment of Geordie Greig as Paul Dacre's replacement at the Daily Mail.
Britain's highest-circulation daily newspaper has been, under Dacre, the most rabid, frothing voice stirring up blame and anger among leave voters and finding and exploiting any excuse to push the leave agenda.
But Greig is a staunch remainer and has ensured the Mail on Sunday lays out a clear set of arguments for remaining in the EU or for softening Brexit and mitigating is worst elements.
Greig will not report to Dacre. Instead, he will report directly to Jonathan Harmsworth, another remainer.
Under Dacre, the Mail became the biggest newspaper in the country and stirred it's readers towards voting leave. From the Autumn, the Mail will still be popular and influential, but will be steered by a remainer who reports to a remainer. This could have a significant detrimental effect on anyone assuming that the path to Brexit will be without public opposition.
*pops in, sees that nothing has changed and that everyone is still chasing their tales and puffing out their chests. Pops out*
Nice poetic ambiguity in the use of the word 'tales', otherwise the usual vacuum laden post from BBW.
'Tales' was used on purpose, Mr Irish Border Man.
You sound hurt and angry.
Hurt and angry is an interesting extrapolation. Not that it need bother you with your faux concern, which is consistent with your generally faux sincerity on Charlton Life. Mr Irish Border Man is simply a hollow attempt to reduce my obsession about a genuine brexit issue to a cartoon issue that so far you have nothing worthwhile to say about. Anyway you said you were popping out, how come you're hanging about?
*pops in, sees that nothing has changed and that everyone is still chasing their tales and puffing out their chests. Pops out*
Nice poetic ambiguity in the use of the word 'tales', otherwise the usual vacuum laden post from BBW.
'Tales' was used on purpose, Mr Irish Border Man.
You sound hurt and angry.
Hurt and angry is an interesting extrapolation. Not that it need bother you with your faux concern, which is consistent with your generally faux sincerity on Charlton Life. Mr Irish Border Man is simply a hollow attempt to reduce my obsession about a genuine brexit issue to a cartoon issue that so far you have nothing worthwhile to say about. Anyway you said you were popping out, how come you're hanging about?
'Interesting' seems to be the flavour of the month, word-wise, with some. Usually used when nothing of any particular note comes to mind when attempting to discredit what someone says.
Anyway, back to your anger. Have you sought help away from CL? I'm sure there's plenty of shrinks willing to take you under their wing to seek to understand your rage.
Christ, they may even have some suggestions for the Irish Border for you. Different views to those you've had on here. Worth a go, surely?
'Mr Irish Border Man' wasn't used to reduce anything to a cartoon issue at all. Stop prophesying about what you think people mean as all it does is make you look a little silly when your prophesying gets rebuked. It also adds another layer of anger and that's never a good thing.
'Mr Irish Border Man' was nothing more than a light hearted prod at your 5,697 references to the border issue. Your anger took you down the wrong path when formulating an answer, which is a shame.
I did pop out. I've popped back. If it makes you even angrier then let me know and I'll pop out again.
There are now at least 50% of the British population that would now vote for scrapping Brexit. Labour should be ashamed that they as the only opposition to this government are not offering that alternative to the electorate. Instead Corbyn is creeping around the most important issue this country has faced in a generation playing party politics looking to snide his way into office.
His latest offering has split the PLP and I hope those that oppose him have the bollox to stand up to his three line whip. The man is a national menace.
It would be interesting if you can share that poll - last numbers I saw talked of a three way split between no Brexit, soft brexit and leave everything.
Reducing growth, a slowdown in net immigration plus the pathetic "negotiations" by May and co. were always likely to impact the polls. Especially now that we approach major deadlines.
And still Davis insists there should be a deadline on the Irish backstop! Which part of leaving N.Ireland with no visible land border forever does he not understand?
In principle we might agree that either binning Brexit or staying in the SM/CU is a good outcome. But what Parliamentary manoeuvres will bring this about? Nothing has happened of late to change my view that the fight for staying in the SM should start next April. For if it starts now it will be (and has been) perceived as anti-democratic.
Once the country agrees to stay in the SM it's only a lightbulb moment from staying in the EU. Many might desire that outcome but it just doesn't appear likely to happen.
Of course that view might be wrong or the polls might swing? But if Labour suddenly flip flops by choosing to fight Brexit and then loses it will be finished. That course of action which you pine for appears to be a massive bear trap with the Brexit media having a field day. First Corbyn will be painted as undemocratic and second he will be blamed for the complete and absolute failure of Brexit discussions.
Many have noted that the Tories are in disarray, unable to offer up anything that the EU27 will consider. The deadline is around October followed by Brexit next March.
Labour can swing to the SM option next April long before a transition period ends. Or simply keep going with Customs Union plus alignment. Whether they will shift or not is unclear but if the economy stops growing then people will consider alternatives to this government.
Is that realpolitik? Possibly... Ultimately there are far more important issues such as housing, the NHS, transport, education and aneamic growth. And to deal with those Labour has to defeat the Alt-right, preferably by splitting the Tories. That is the key which will unlock a radical social democratic agenda. And if the country needs to feel some pain so as to shift 5% of the vote then so be it.
Not asking you to agree but simply to recognise that come next April 60-70% of the country will all be on the same side - wanting to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market. The blue party will be the one who will have taken us out of the EU and if the economy tanks they take the blame.
Plenty of people are dubious about the Corbyn McDonnell agenda and in a year or two there will be three options. They either win, make way or the time for a new centrist third way option arrives.
We can all sense your frustration and you are not alone for around one third of the electorate are ardent remainers. It just happens that another third do not want to leave the "common market" and have no time for Fox, Johnson and the rest.
Your very good post demands more time than will allow at present but I will for now say that a three way split is unlikely depending of course on the way the question is posed.
*pops in, sees that nothing has changed and that everyone is still chasing their tales and puffing out their chests. Pops out*
Nice poetic ambiguity in the use of the word 'tales', otherwise the usual vacuum laden post from BBW.
'Tales' was used on purpose, Mr Irish Border Man.
You sound hurt and angry.
Hurt and angry is an interesting extrapolation. Not that it need bother you with your faux concern, which is consistent with your generally faux sincerity on Charlton Life. Mr Irish Border Man is simply a hollow attempt to reduce my obsession about a genuine brexit issue to a cartoon issue that so far you have nothing worthwhile to say about. Anyway you said you were popping out, how come you're hanging about?
'Interesting' seems to be the flavour of the month word-wise with some. Usually used when nothing of any particular note comes to mind when attempting to discredit what someone says.
Anyway, back to your anger. Have you sought help away from CL? I'm sure there's plenty of shrinks willing to take you under their wing to seek to understand your rage.
Christ, they may even have some suggestions for the Irish Border for you. Different views to those you've had on here. Worth a go, surely?
'Mr Irish Border Man' wasn't used to reduce anything to a cartoon issue at all. Stop prophesying about what you think people mean as all it does is make you look a little silly when your prophesying gets rebuked. It also adds another layer of anger and that's never a good thing.
'Mr Irish Border Man' was nothing more than a light hearted prod at your 5,697 references to the border issue. Your anger took you down the wrong path when formulating an answer, which is a shame.
I did pop out. I've popped back. If it makes you even angrier then let me know and I'll pop out again.
Love, hugs and kisses
Feck me that's a hell of a lot of self justification.
I make absolutely no apologies to you or anybody regarding what I write on this thread.
Be as judgemental as you like because it at least distracts from you suggesting anything of your own.
*pops in, sees that nothing has changed and that everyone is still chasing their tales and puffing out their chests. Pops out*
Nice poetic ambiguity in the use of the word 'tales', otherwise the usual vacuum laden post from BBW.
'Tales' was used on purpose, Mr Irish Border Man.
You sound hurt and angry.
Hurt and angry is an interesting extrapolation. Not that it need bother you with your faux concern, which is consistent with your generally faux sincerity on Charlton Life. Mr Irish Border Man is simply a hollow attempt to reduce my obsession about a genuine brexit issue to a cartoon issue that so far you have nothing worthwhile to say about. Anyway you said you were popping out, how come you're hanging about?
'Interesting' seems to be the flavour of the month word-wise with some. Usually used when nothing of any particular note comes to mind when attempting to discredit what someone says.
Anyway, back to your anger. Have you sought help away from CL? I'm sure there's plenty of shrinks willing to take you under their wing to seek to understand your rage.
Christ, they may even have some suggestions for the Irish Border for you. Different views to those you've had on here. Worth a go, surely?
'Mr Irish Border Man' wasn't used to reduce anything to a cartoon issue at all. Stop prophesying about what you think people mean as all it does is make you look a little silly when your prophesying gets rebuked. It also adds another layer of anger and that's never a good thing.
'Mr Irish Border Man' was nothing more than a light hearted prod at your 5,697 references to the border issue. Your anger took you down the wrong path when formulating an answer, which is a shame.
I did pop out. I've popped back. If it makes you even angrier then let me know and I'll pop out again.
Love, hugs and kisses
Feck me that's a hell of a lot of self justification.
I make absolutely no apologies to you or anybody regarding what I write on this thread.
Be as judgemental as you like because it at least distracts from you suggesting anything of your own.
Boris Johnson on the NI and Republic of Ireland border yesterday:
"It's so small and there are so few firms that actually use that border regularly."
This may come as a bit of a surprise to those who live and work there. It's also just short of 500km in length and runs through farms and people's houses at some points.
In terms of 'so few firms using it' even a cursory information check reveals that Northern Irish exports to the Republic were worth over £1 billion more than its exports to the rest of the EU combined (not including Great Britain or Ireland) in 2016.
Boris Johnson on the NI and Republic of Ireland border yesterday:
"It's so small and there are so few firms that actually use that border regularly."
This may come as a bit of a surprise to those who live and work there. It's also just short of 500km in length and runs through farms and people's houses at some points.
In terms of 'so few firms using it' even a cursory information check reveals that Northern Irish exports to the Republic were worth over £1 billion more than its exports to the rest of the EU combined (not including Great Britain or Ireland) in 2016.
So there you go Boris. Carry on.
He’s such a c***
He’s oblivious to what actually goes on in the real world. It’s actually shameful that we have someone like him anywhere near our government. He’s actually a disgrace to the human race
Boris Johnson on the NI and Republic of Ireland border yesterday:
"It's so small and there are so few firms that actually use that border regularly."
This may come as a bit of a surprise to those who live and work there. It's also just short of 500km in length and runs through farms and people's houses at some points.
In terms of 'so few firms using it' even a cursory information check reveals that Northern Irish exports to the Republic were worth over £1 billion more than its exports to the rest of the EU combined (not including Great Britain or Ireland) in 2016.
So there you go Boris. Carry on.
He’s such a c***
He’s oblivious to what actually goes on in the real world. It’s actually shameful that we have someone like him anywhere near our government. He’s actually a disgrace to the human race
I don't think he's that oblivious, he just knows his target audience won't fact check, so expect brexiters to start dismissing Irish border concerns with similar phrases concerning how small it is and how few companies use it. Unfortunately we are deep in to the post-truth world now, it's going to take a major upheaval in western democracy to pull it back to something remotely close to honesty and truthfulness.
The UK exports more to the Republic than to the USA so I believe.
The UK exports nearly 3 times as much to the USA ($61.6bn approx) than it does to Ireland ($22.9bn approx).
The USA is the UK's largest single export destination.
Do you have a link for the figures? (I'm not disputing, just curious on the numbers) Is this figure heavy on our service industry?
Admittedly, the figures were for 2016 and have grown since (see @McBobbin link above, where it shows our US exports against our Ireland exports have grown wider).
I don't believe the service industry is factored in, although I wouldn't nail my colours to the mast on that one. They state that the UK's biggest exports are/were:
Cars ($48.8bn) Gold ($28.3bn) Packaged Medicaments ($23.8bn) Gas Turbines ($21.8bn)
The UK exports more to the Republic than to the USA so I believe.
The UK exports nearly 3 times as much to the USA ($61.6bn approx) than it does to Ireland ($22.9bn approx).
The USA is the UK's largest single export destination.
Do you have a link for the figures? (I'm not disputing, just curious on the numbers) Is this figure heavy on our service industry?
Admittedly, the figures were for 2016 and have grown since (see @McBobbin link above, where it shows our US exports against our Ireland exports have grown wider).
I don't believe the service industry is factored in, although I wouldn't nail my colours to the mast on that one. They state that the UK's biggest exports are/were:
Cars ($48.8bn) Gold ($28.3bn) Packaged Medicaments ($23.8bn) Gas Turbines ($21.8bn)
I know he wont be there forever, but if we are relying on the USA's 61 billion to rise enough to fill the gap of the EU's 270 odd billion, the orange one's attitude to trading partners wont do us any favours...
The UK exports more to the Republic than to the USA so I believe.
The UK exports nearly 3 times as much to the USA ($61.6bn approx) than it does to Ireland ($22.9bn approx).
The USA is the UK's largest single export destination.
Do you have a link for the figures? (I'm not disputing, just curious on the numbers) Is this figure heavy on our service industry?
Admittedly, the figures were for 2016 and have grown since (see @McBobbin link above, where it shows our US exports against our Ireland exports have grown wider).
I don't believe the service industry is factored in, although I wouldn't nail my colours to the mast on that one. They state that the UK's biggest exports are/were:
Cars ($48.8bn) Gold ($28.3bn) Packaged Medicaments ($23.8bn) Gas Turbines ($21.8bn)
Comments
Talk of food shortages and now Boris even warning of a coming meltdown
Essentially it was dismissed, seen as a minor issue and brexiters thought they could wing it or that there would be a 'work around'.
For some brexiters their lip curling distain for Ireland and the Irish was a revival of deep seated and historic hatred and racism towards the Irish which has always existed, and regularly fuelled and topped up by 'the Irish are stupid' Irish 'jokes'.
Britain's highest-circulation daily newspaper has been, under Dacre, the most rabid, frothing voice stirring up blame and anger among leave voters and finding and exploiting any excuse to push the leave agenda.
But Greig is a staunch remainer and has ensured the Mail on Sunday lays out a clear set of arguments for remaining in the EU or for softening Brexit and mitigating is worst elements.
Greig will not report to Dacre. Instead, he will report directly to Jonathan Harmsworth, another remainer.
Under Dacre, the Mail became the biggest newspaper in the country and stirred it's readers towards voting leave. From the Autumn, the Mail will still be popular and influential, but will be steered by a remainer who reports to a remainer. This could have a significant detrimental effect on anyone assuming that the path to Brexit will be without public opposition.
You sound hurt and angry.
Not that it need bother you with your faux concern, which is consistent with your generally faux sincerity on Charlton Life.
Mr Irish Border Man is simply a hollow attempt to reduce my obsession about a genuine brexit issue to a cartoon issue that so far you have nothing worthwhile to say about.
Anyway you said you were popping out, how come you're hanging about?
Anyway, back to your anger. Have you sought help away from CL? I'm sure there's plenty of shrinks willing to take you under their wing to seek to understand your rage.
Christ, they may even have some suggestions for the Irish Border for you. Different views to those you've had on here. Worth a go, surely?
'Mr Irish Border Man' wasn't used to reduce anything to a cartoon issue at all. Stop prophesying about what you think people mean as all it does is make you look a little silly when your prophesying gets rebuked. It also adds another layer of anger and that's never a good thing.
'Mr Irish Border Man' was nothing more than a light hearted prod at your 5,697 references to the border issue. Your anger took you down the wrong path when formulating an answer, which is a shame.
I did pop out. I've popped back. If it makes you even angrier then let me know and I'll pop out again.
Love, hugs and kisses
I make absolutely no apologies to you or anybody regarding what I write on this thread.
Be as judgemental as you like because it at least distracts from you suggesting anything of your own.
Oh I think knot.
It was an observation, not a judgement.
What was that about self justification?
"It's so small and there are so few firms that actually use that border regularly."
This may come as a bit of a surprise to those who live and work there. It's also just short of 500km in length and runs through farms and people's houses at some points.
In terms of 'so few firms using it' even a cursory information check reveals that Northern Irish exports to the Republic were worth over £1 billion more than its exports to the rest of the EU combined (not including Great Britain or Ireland) in 2016.
So there you go Boris. Carry on.
The USA is the UK's largest single export destination.
He’s oblivious to what actually goes on in the real world. It’s actually shameful that we have someone like him anywhere near our government. He’s actually a disgrace to the human race
I don't believe the service industry is factored in, although I wouldn't nail my colours to the mast on that one. They state that the UK's biggest exports are/were:
Cars ($48.8bn)
Gold ($28.3bn)
Packaged Medicaments ($23.8bn)
Gas Turbines ($21.8bn)
https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/967769/trump-trade-tariffs-uk-eu-jean-claude-juncker-theresa-may-steel-aluminium-imports