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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
  • se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
    Don't get completely wiped out?
  • McBobbin said:

    se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
    Don't get completely wiped out?
    How's that going?
  • se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
    Well the first page of their manifesto says
    ''Liberal Democrats are open and outward-looking. We passionately believe that Britain is better off in the EU. We will fight against the Conservatives disastrous hard Brexit - their choice to make the UK a poorer place
    We acknowledge the result of the 2016 referendum, which gave the government a mandate to start negotiations to leave – but we believe the final decision should be made by the British people, not by politicians.''

    By far the best policy of all the parties.

    Hope this helps.
  • McBobbin said:

    se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
    Don't get completely wiped out?
    How's that going?
    Calamitous at best
  • Dear Pot... Regards, Chippy
  • se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
    Well the first page of their manifesto says
    ''Liberal Democrats are open and outward-looking. We passionately believe that Britain is better off in the EU. We will fight against the Conservatives disastrous hard Brexit - their choice to make the UK a poorer place
    We acknowledge the result of the 2016 referendum, which gave the government a mandate to start negotiations to leave – but we believe the final decision should be made by the British people, not by politicians.''

    By far the best policy of all the parties.

    Hope this helps.
    I was hoping you would have a witty picture to explain it, but is their any detail in the manifesto and do they still hold the same opinions?
  • se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
    Well the first page of their manifesto says
    ''Liberal Democrats are open and outward-looking. We passionately believe that Britain is better off in the EU. We will fight against the Conservatives disastrous hard Brexit - their choice to make the UK a poorer place
    We acknowledge the result of the 2016 referendum, which gave the government a mandate to start negotiations to leave – but we believe the final decision should be made by the British people, not by politicians.''

    By far the best policy of all the parties.

    Hope this helps.
    I was hoping you would have a witty picture to explain it, but is their any detail in the manifesto and do they still hold the same opinions?
    Sorry, yes and yes.
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  • Chizz said:
    Is that because he recognises what a monumental balls up he's made of his job, or because he wants to be able to slag off Theresa May for the monumental balls up she's making of hers?
  • edited June 2018

    se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
    I cannot see a situation where, even if there was a desire to accommodate the latest Labour thinking, there is enough time to achieve it - assuming that the Conservatives are willing to step aside in the morning.

    Also, I think it's important to recognise that Michel Barnier and his team have what amounts to an open door policy, meeting groups or individuals, or indicating a level of openness to new ideas, is a commonplace activity.

    My reading of the Labour plan is that is not hugely dissimilar to that of HMG, in that it simply expects the EU27 to surrender a pillar on which the EU is built, just to suit the UK.

    I could not see that happening, to be honest.
  • not been reading this thread for months as it was too anti brexit & too much point scoring....however, I will say one thing & I expect to get lambasted for it.

    There should be & needs to be a border between NI & ROI. The Peace Agreement should not & can not have anything to do with the UK leaving the EU. End of.....

    runs & hides
  • not been reading this thread for months as it was too anti brexit & too much point scoring....however, I will say one thing & I expect to get lambasted for it.

    There should be & needs to be a border between NI & ROI. The Peace Agreement should not & can not have anything to do with the UK leaving the EU. End of.....

    runs & hides

    What a out the Belfast Agreement. How does it square with your aspiration?
  • seth plum said:

    not been reading this thread for months as it was too anti brexit & too much point scoring....however, I will say one thing & I expect to get lambasted for it.

    There should be & needs to be a border between NI & ROI. The Peace Agreement should not & can not have anything to do with the UK leaving the EU. End of.....

    runs & hides

    What a out the Belfast Agreement. How does it square with your aspiration?
    sorry....I call it the Peace Agreement because thats what it is basically....

    It states that NI is part of the UK & was recognised by the south as such. Therefore when the UK (inc NI) leaves the EU (which include ROI) there should be a border between the 2 "states". That could be a border crossing or a wall.....I don't really care. But there needs to be some distinction between the 2.Just because Sinn Fein (IRA) don't want it isn't a good enough excuse. All the UK politicians say they don't want it either, but that is because they haven't the balls to say different. I don't particularly like the DUP but at least they stick to their guns (no pun intended) & don't pander to anyone.
  • At this point I'm not even sure Davis resigning would be a good thing, god knows what nut-job they'd give the role to next.
  • Davis resigning would almost certainly force a leadership contest. Then it would be do or die for Brexit. I think he probably will resign as it would give him a great chance of being prime minister, but that would make the house of cards topple. It will be an interesting week or so!
  • Davis resigning would almost certainly force a leadership contest. Then it would be do or die for Brexit. I think he probably will resign as it would give him a great chance of being prime minister, but that would make the house of cards topple. It will be an interesting week or so!

    I really don't see Davis as a viable leadership candidate, he'd probably throw his lot in with someone else to get a prime spot in the cabinet. I would imagine it'll be May, Mogg, Johnson or Gove. What a choice!
  • Yes, but being close to Brexit will give him a strong hand and will increase his chances greatly. It would be the disaster the Tories have been trying to avoid though, as May is there simply to keep them together.
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  • not been reading this thread for months as it was too anti brexit & too much point scoring....however, I will say one thing & I expect to get lambasted for it.

    There should be & needs to be a border between NI & ROI. The Peace Agreement should not & can not have anything to do with the UK leaving the EU. End of.....

    runs & hides

    It's funny what perception does. I stopped reading because I felt it was too pro.
  • se9addick said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    se9addick said:

    seth plum said:

    Seems to me that Corbyn totally mashed May in PMQ's today over brexit.
    Yet again.

    I thought it a bit rich coming from him, make no mistake he's part of the Brexit "shambles", as evidenced by him trying to undermine the EEA amendment to the Brexit Bill.
    I agree that the Labour position is poor, but getting better, the undermining accusation does not stand up in my view.
    However, crucially, as Corbyn pointed out, it is this government (supposedly) who are doing the negotiating, the spotlight on this issue is firmly on May, not Corbyn.
    Surely telling his MPs not to vote for an amendment that would see us stay in the EEA (and offer us a route out of this madness) is undermining a "soft" Brexit?
    I sort of agree but Starmer is saying they want something better than the EEA. Hence why they are not voting for it.

    It is a bit like seeing out a 2-2 draw that keeps you up only to possibly find that the scores change in another match. Do you go for the win whilst risking the defeat!

    OK nothing like that really.
    Then surely Starmer is being as delusional as May as there isnt really anything better than EEA on the table - remember it isn't just about the solution that our political leaders come up with but what the EU will actually accept.
    He also says that he has spoken to EU leaders who are open to his plan. So perhaps not quite as delusional.

    The Lib Dems have been very quiet on Brexit, what is their plan?
    I cannot see a situation where, even if there was a desire to accommodate the latest Labour thinking, there is enough time to achieve it - assuming that the Conservatives are willing to step aside in the morning.

    Also, I think it's important to recognise that Michel Barnier and his team have what amounts to an open door policy, meeting groups or individuals, or indicating a level of openness to new ideas, is a commonplace activity.

    My reading of the Labour plan is that is not hugely dissimilar to that of HMG, in that it simply expects the EU27 to surrender a pillar on which the EU is built, just to suit the UK.

    I could not see that happening, to be honest.
    Labour's position is not exactly awe inspiring but really what should we expect? They are not in govt. and at the moment it is not their mess to sort out. Their position is very similar to the governments with four small/crucial* differences.

    1. They have not made any red lines.
    2. They want to positively (in the EU's opinion) resolve the issue of non British EU citizens in the UK.
    3. They are not bad mouthing the EU, its negotiators and institutions at every turn.
    4. If they are to be believed they have actually gone out and gained support from EU leaders, almost certainly from
    socialist groups but it is a start

    If I was the EU I know who I would be more open to finding a solution with but it is unlikely we will ever know as the Tories don't seem to want do the decent thing.

    Obviously I want them (Labour) to turn around and admit that Brexit is a pile of shit and campaign for a second referendum/vote on the divorce/some such other thing that will stop the nonsense, but they want to get elected and at the moment they think that their stance is the best way to achieve that (see PR).

    *If the Tories collapse and we get a Labour govt then we may get to know the relevance of their stance.
  • Whatever people's views are over Brexit the thing that concerns me most is the absolute shambles of the Tory party.
    This is without doubt the weakest conservative front bench I have seen in my lifetime.

    I think there are some very strong people there. The problem is that they are making no secret of the fact that they are purely in it for themselves, and are pushing policies that will benefit them personally. They will do or say anything that will help them achieve what they want.
  • Whatever people's views are over Brexit the thing that concerns me most is the absolute shambles of the Tory party.
    This is without doubt the weakest conservative front bench I have seen in my lifetime.

    I think there are some very strong people there. The problem is that they are making no secret of the fact that they are purely in it for themselves, and are pushing policies that will benefit them personally. They will do or say anything that will help them achieve what they want.
    Agree with algarve. They’re weak in the face of democracy, the face the country needs to see as strong. When they’re in their little enclaves and cess pits of getting them and their ilk richer whilst jettisoning the rest of the nation, they’re very forthright and strong

    Always have and always will be a grubby little bunch of self serving tossers imo

    Davis is actually one of the better ones comparatively speaking
  • cabbles said:

    Whatever people's views are over Brexit the thing that concerns me most is the absolute shambles of the Tory party.
    This is without doubt the weakest conservative front bench I have seen in my lifetime.

    I think there are some very strong people there. The problem is that they are making no secret of the fact that they are purely in it for themselves, and are pushing policies that will benefit them personally. They will do or say anything that will help them achieve what they want.
    Agree with algarve. They’re weak in the face of democracy, the face the country needs to see as strong. When they’re in their little enclaves and cess pits of getting them and their ilk richer whilst jettisoning the rest of the nation, they’re very forthright and strong

    Always have and always will be a grubby little bunch of self serving tossers imo

    Davis is actually one of the better ones comparatively speaking
    Agreed - he's not necessarily as self-serving as the others, just a tosser.
  • Whatever people's views are over Brexit the thing that concerns me most is the absolute shambles of the Tory party.
    This is without doubt the weakest conservative front bench I have seen in my lifetime.

    I think there are some very strong people there. The problem is that they are making no secret of the fact that they are purely in it for themselves, and are pushing policies that will benefit them personally. They will do or say anything that will help them achieve what they want.
    Surely that makes them strong people, but awful politicians.
  • edited June 2018

    seth plum said:

    not been reading this thread for months as it was too anti brexit & too much point scoring....however, I will say one thing & I expect to get lambasted for it.

    There should be & needs to be a border between NI & ROI. The Peace Agreement should not & can not have anything to do with the UK leaving the EU. End of.....

    runs & hides

    What a out the Belfast Agreement. How does it square with your aspiration?
    sorry....I call it the Peace Agreement because thats what it is basically....

    It states that NI is part of the UK & was recognised by the south as such. Therefore when the UK (inc NI) leaves the EU (which include ROI) there should be a border between the 2 "states". That could be a border crossing or a wall.....I don't really care. But there needs to be some distinction between the 2.Just because Sinn Fein (IRA) don't want it isn't a good enough excuse. All the UK politicians say they don't want it either, but that is because they haven't the balls to say different. I don't particularly like the DUP but at least they stick to their guns (no pun intended) & don't pander to anyone.
    When you say 'there would be a border crossing or a wall....I don't really care' is where you have a difficulty. You say you don't care and in that you are saying it is up to somebody else to sort out.
    If you don't have any practical workable solutions of your own what makes you thing anybody else does?
    There is about 400km of land border with about 300 crossings. Some properties span the border some people criss cross many times a day. Previous crossing points have been the target of violence and the PSNI have warned of a return.
    How much will your border cost to establish and implement and what form of border would you suggest?
    You originally said there should and needs to be a border, I should and need to win the lottery, but I know one practical step would be to buy a ticket first, what are your practical steps to have the border you say is needed and should happen?
  • Whatever people's views are over Brexit the thing that concerns me most is the absolute shambles of the Tory party.
    This is without doubt the weakest conservative front bench I have seen in my lifetime.

    I think there are some very strong people there. The problem is that they are making no secret of the fact that they are purely in it for themselves, and are pushing policies that will benefit them personally. They will do or say anything that will help them achieve what they want.
    Surely that makes them strong people, but awful politicians.
    Yes it does. It also makes them awful people, but some folk will still vote for them.
This discussion has been closed.

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