3) Whole UK (including NI) leaves the EU/SM/CU and we impose border controls which couldwill probably, in the view of the PSNI, given the ongoing security threat in Northern Ireland include security checkpoints.
3) Whole UK (including NI) leaves the EU/SM/CU and we impose border controls which couldwill probably, in the view of the PSNI, given the ongoing security threat in Northern Ireland include security checkpoints.
Fixed that for you.
This
...before starting work on the document that will, of necessity, replace the Good Friday Agreement.
This.
Do you have an idea as to what the GFA could be replaced with, in the event of the UK crashing out of the EU and enforcing full border and customs control within the island of Ireland, against the demands and wishes of people on both sides of the border, @golfaddick ?
Effort needs to be put in by people in order to vote in an informed way but I wouldn't exclude them for ignorance. People are the people they are, not what one would wish them to be.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
Not all of the EU countries use the Euro and the UK government has in the past allowed total free movement where other countries have set limits on the amount of people entering from different countries. There is so much misunderstanding about the EU and blaming it for things has taken away a lot of accountability for various UK governments when problems are mainly of their own making.
3) Whole UK (including NI) leaves the EU/SM/CU and we impose border controls which couldwill probably, in the view of the PSNI, given the ongoing security threat in Northern Ireland include security checkpoints.
3) Whole UK (including NI) leaves the EU/SM/CU and we impose border controls which couldwill probably, in the view of the PSNI, given the ongoing security threat in Northern Ireland include security checkpoints.
Fixed that for you.
This
...before starting work on the document that will, of necessity, replace the Good Friday Agreement.
This.
Do you have an idea as to what the GFA could be replaced with, in the event of the UK crashing out of the EU and enforcing full border and customs control within the island of Ireland, against the demands and wishes of people on both sides of the border, @golfaddick ?
Nope, I have no idea. Thats why I'm a financial advisor & not a politician. I leave it up to the men & women whom I have trusted to make these decisions - once Richard Hammond asks me how to run the economy I'll then look at how to seperate us leaving the EU & the IRA wanting to blow us all up.
The really simple solution is for a United Ireland.....wont happen just yet as there are still too many die-hards on either side, but it will happen....its written in the GFA.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
I believe economic alignment is more than just currency. Proximity and exchange and collaboration and actual trade are also features of economic alignment. UK citizens are allowed free entry into EU countries, people coming in contribute through work and paying taxes and arguably cultural enrichment. Only 5% of the UK land mass is built on. No law has ever been imposed by the EU on the UK because the UK being participants in the EU had full 'say' on every law or regulation introduced, there are also plenty of domestic laws that the EU has not influenced.
You mentioned the Irish border in a post a day or two ago, that it should be established but you don't care if it is a wall of checkpoints or whatever. How would you suggest that border is established? It is proving a difficulty for everybody, do you have a workable solution?
I agree about the UK government and am pleased I didn't vote for them, or vote brexit either. There are no benefits from either beyond establishment figures gaining domestic power, one of the downsides seems to be a greater confidence and licence for people to be racists.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
I believe economic alignment is more than just currency. Proximity and exchange and collaboration and actual trade are also features of economic alignment. UK citizens are allowed free entry into EU countries, people coming in contribute through work and paying taxes and arguably cultural enrichment. Only 5% of the UK land mass is built on. No law has ever been imposed by the EU on the UK because the UK being participants in the EU had full 'say' on every law or regulation introduced, there are also plenty of domestic laws that the EU has not influenced.
You mentioned the Irish border in a post a day or two ago, that it should be established but you don't care if it is a wall of checkpoints or whatever. How would you suggest that border is established? It is proving a difficulty for everybody, do you have a workable solution?
I agree about the UK government and am pleased I didn't vote for them, or vote brexit either. There are no benefits from either beyond establishment figures gaining domestic power, one of the downsides seems to be a greater confidence and licence for people to be racists.
That is a very good post. Golfie very succinctly put the arguments most (non prejudiced/racist) leavers used to back up their opinion, and you have equally succinctly taken them apart, Seth.
3) Whole UK (including NI) leaves the EU/SM/CU and we impose border controls which couldwill probably, in the view of the PSNI, given the ongoing security threat in Northern Ireland include security checkpoints.
3) Whole UK (including NI) leaves the EU/SM/CU and we impose border controls which couldwill probably, in the view of the PSNI, given the ongoing security threat in Northern Ireland include security checkpoints.
Fixed that for you.
This
...before starting work on the document that will, of necessity, replace the Good Friday Agreement.
This.
Do you have an idea as to what the GFA could be replaced with, in the event of the UK crashing out of the EU and enforcing full border and customs control within the island of Ireland, against the demands and wishes of people on both sides of the border, @golfaddick ?
Nope, I have no idea. Thats why I'm a financial advisor & not a politician. I leave it up to the men & women whom I have trusted to make these decisions - once Richard Hammond asks me how to run the economy I'll then look at how to seperate us leaving the EU & the IRA wanting to blow us all up.
The really simple solution is for a United Ireland.....wont happen just yet as there are still too many die-hards on either side, but it will happen....its written in the GFA.
I'm not sure anyone, anywhere could justify the phrase "the simple solution is for a United Ireland" unless they had a very, very poor grip on the geopolitical issues of the UK and Ireland over the last fifty or so years. Remaining in the EU and leaving the EU were on the ballot. Breaking up the United Kingdom wasn't.
Many of us (who knows, possibly most of us?) don't want to leave the EU. But, you're right, we are having to trust politicians to deliver against a terrible and unclear decision we made a few years ago. And that decision was reached by all sorts of people, from those who fully understand the implications of withdrawal and its associated constitutional impact, all the way down to those who don't know the difference between Richard Hammond and Philip Hammond, and beyond.
sorry, I did mean Phillip Hammond, but Richard Hammond would prob make a better Chancellor in any case....
As for the fact that only 5% of the UK is built on.....totally agree.....but I can't see too many people wanting to live in Snowdonia or the Highlands of Scotland. It wouod certsonly eleviate our housing & social problems & when I become Home Secretary I will be making plans for anyone entering the UK from here on in to be given a train ticket & directions to Durness...(look it up - I've played golf there)
3) Whole UK (including NI) leaves the EU/SM/CU and we impose border controls which couldwill probably, in the view of the PSNI, given the ongoing security threat in Northern Ireland include security checkpoints.
3) Whole UK (including NI) leaves the EU/SM/CU and we impose border controls which couldwill probably, in the view of the PSNI, given the ongoing security threat in Northern Ireland include security checkpoints.
Fixed that for you.
This
...before starting work on the document that will, of necessity, replace the Good Friday Agreement.
This.
Do you have an idea as to what the GFA could be replaced with, in the event of the UK crashing out of the EU and enforcing full border and customs control within the island of Ireland, against the demands and wishes of people on both sides of the border, @golfaddick ?
Nope, I have no idea. Thats why I'm a financial advisor & not a politician. I leave it up to the men & women whom I have trusted to make these decisions - once Richard Hammond asks me how to run the economy I'll then look at how to seperate us leaving the EU & the IRA wanting to blow us all up.
The really simple solution is for a United Ireland.....wont happen just yet as there are still too many die-hards on either side, but it will happen....its written in the GFA.
I think you mean Philip Hammond. A United Ireland is not written in to the GFA, study article six of it.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
That is certainly the presenting problem and the way it is being portrayed in the media. Whilst it's true that the government have been hugely ineffective, the underlying issues are far more important:
1. There were benefits that people were led to believe they'd get from leaving, that were simply unachievable. 2. There were benefits to staying that nobody considered and most were unaware that they even existed. 3. There are many practical issues that need the collective will of many parties and years of long term planning in order to solve. Some may even be completely intractable. 4. That prior to the referendum no-one had given the slightest thought as to what it really meant in practice or how it might be achieved.
The real problem is not the ineffective government, but the fact that the British people were sold a pup in the first place.
Before the referendum leavers were quite happy for a short term economic hit to get what they wanted.
Then after the vote and the subsequent economic turmoil we're told they're quite happy for a longer term economic hit to get what they want.
Then when Scotland and NI protested they didn't want to leave we're told they're quite happy to break up the union to get what they want.
Now, with nothing like a workable border solution even proposed, werey told they're quite happy for people to die to get what they want.
I'm genuinely quite scared about what's next. They're appears to be nothing they won't sacrifice, nothing too terrible that could happen, that they won't willingly accept to get their childish wish fulfillment.
And the worst thing is they won't even take an ounce of responsibility for any of the above. It's always somebody else's thought it's happening and somebody else's responsibility to try and fix.
They will pauper us for generations and blame the EU for doing it to us.
Before the referendum leavers were quite happy for a short term economic hit to get what they wanted.
Then after the vote and the subsequent economic turmoil we're told they're quite happy for a longer term economic hit to get what they want.
Then when Scotland and NI protested they didn't want to leave we're told they're quite happy to break up the union to get what they want.
Now, with nothing like a workable border solution even proposed, werey told they're quite happy for people to die to get what they want.
I'm genuinely quite scared about what's next. They're appears to be nothing they won't sacrifice, nothing too terrible that could happen, that they won't willingly accept to get their childish wish fulfillment.
And the worst thing is they won't even take an ounce of responsibility for any of the above. It's always somebody else's thought it's happening and somebody else's responsibility to try and fix.
They will pauper us for generations and blame the EU for doing it to us.
Even worse is they already have what they want anyway. Unless they want something they're not telling us about.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
That is certainly the presenting problem and the way it is being portrayed in the media. Whilst it's true that the government have been hugely ineffective, the underlying issues are far more important:
1. There were benefits that people were led to believe they'd get from leaving, that were simply unachievable. 2. There were benefits to staying that nobody considered and most were unaware that they even existed. 3. There are many practical issues that need the collective will of many parties and years of long term planning in order to solve. Some may even be completely intractable. 4. That prior to the referendum no-one had given the slightest thought as to what it really meant in practice or how it might be achieved.
The real problem is not the ineffective government, but the fact that the British people were sold a pup in the first place.
The government is not ineffective in the sense of being incompetent (although it may be that as well). It is carrying out a lengthy negotiation within itself about whether or not to leave the EU. This is because the Leave majority vote is not reflected in the circles of British society which actually make and carry out decisions, the political parties, the media, the rich and the civil service. The negotiation they are engaged in is not with the EU , but internally about what the minimum amount of change in the relationship with the EU they can get away with, without provoking the kind of reaction we have seen recently in Italy. The purpose of this prolonged negotiation is to get to a point where May can say on behalf of all the Remainers she represents 'look, we tried but could not get very far-we may as well stay'. If they had any intention of leaving they would be preparing for a no deal, which they are not. Once they had conceded on the Irish border issue last December and again this week, there was no longer any possibility we could get a deal with the EU which meant we would be leaving the jurisdiction of the four freedoms. Remainers should not be railing at the Government for its inefficiency ( on this issue) but congratulating it for its effective , long drawn out campaign to stay under the aegis of the EU.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
That is certainly the presenting problem and the way it is being portrayed in the media. Whilst it's true that the government have been hugely ineffective, the underlying issues are far more important:
1. There were benefits that people were led to believe they'd get from leaving, that were simply unachievable. 2. There were benefits to staying that nobody considered and most were unaware that they even existed. 3. There are many practical issues that need the collective will of many parties and years of long term planning in order to solve. Some may even be completely intractable. 4. That prior to the referendum no-one had given the slightest thought as to what it really meant in practice or how it might be achieved.
The real problem is not the ineffective government, but the fact that the British people were sold a pup in the first place.
The government is not ineffective in the sense of being incompetent (although it may be that as well). It is carrying out a lengthy negotiation within itself about whether or not to leave the EU. This is because the Leave majority vote is not reflected in the circles of British society which actually make and carry out decisions, the political parties, the media, the rich and the civil service. The negotiation they are engaged in is not with the EU , but internally about what the minimum amount of change in the relationship with the EU they can get away with, without provoking the kind of reaction we have seen recently in Italy. The purpose of this prolonged negotiation is to get to a point where May can say on behalf of all the Remainers she represents 'look, we tried but could not get very far-we may as well stay'. If they had any intention of leaving they would be preparing for a no deal, which they are not. Once they had conceded on the Irish border issue last December and again this week, there was no longer any possibility we could get a deal with the EU which meant we would be leaving the jurisdiction of the four freedoms. Remainers should not be railing at the Government for its inefficiency ( on this issue) but for its effective , long drawn out campaign to stay under the aegis of the EU.
Southbank, I would love to think you were right, but I just don't believe they are that clever. And of course, it doesn't touch on any of the real practical issues I've raised, it just whitewashes over them. Conspiracy and fear, conspiracy and fear.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
That is certainly the presenting problem and the way it is being portrayed in the media. Whilst it's true that the government have been hugely ineffective, the underlying issues are far more important:
1. There were benefits that people were led to believe they'd get from leaving, that were simply unachievable. 2. There were benefits to staying that nobody considered and most were unaware that they even existed. 3. There are many practical issues that need the collective will of many parties and years of long term planning in order to solve. Some may even be completely intractable. 4. That prior to the referendum no-one had given the slightest thought as to what it really meant in practice or how it might be achieved.
The real problem is not the ineffective government, but the fact that the British people were sold a pup in the first place.
The government is not ineffective in the sense of being incompetent (although it may be that as well). It is carrying out a lengthy negotiation within itself about whether or not to leave the EU. This is because the Leave majority vote is not reflected in the circles of British society which actually make and carry out decisions, the political parties, the media, the rich and the civil service. The negotiation they are engaged in is not with the EU , but internally about what the minimum amount of change in the relationship with the EU they can get away with, without provoking the kind of reaction we have seen recently in Italy. The purpose of this prolonged negotiation is to get to a point where May can say on behalf of all the Remainers she represents 'look, we tried but could not get very far-we may as well stay'. If they had any intention of leaving they would be preparing for a no deal, which they are not. Once they had conceded on the Irish border issue last December and again this week, there was no longer any possibility we could get a deal with the EU which meant we would be leaving the jurisdiction of the four freedoms. Remainers should not be railing at the Government for its inefficiency ( on this issue) but congratulating it for its effective , long drawn out campaign to stay under the aegis of the EU.
Boo hoo, we won the vote but can't make Brexit work, it must be somebody else's fault.
The girl pretending to never have heard of Brexit must have been putting it on
I'm not so sure about that, I doubt my little sister has ever read a newspaper or watched the news out of choice. I bet she's not alone.
It's really sad but I imagine she's far from alone
No idea how old your little sister is, I honestly do not believe there is an adult in this country that hasn't heard of Brexit. The girl in this video is far more likely to be playing up the ditzy blonde thing to win a popularity contest.
I think you're certainly right that she's probably playing on her stupidity, but I imagine there are a lot of adults who know nothing about brexit, although I concede they will have certainly heard of it.
I think we can say with 100% certainty there are plenty of adults who know zip all about Brexit and the implications for our country. See [insert name of your favourite Leaver/Remainer Lifer] posts for an example.
Although you may disagree with a lot of what some people write/believe on this thread, clearly everyone here has enough of an interest to take part in the debate (you may be able to exclude 1 or 2 leavers) that, imo, puts them streets ahead of many, many people.
I absolutely agree. I've said several times on this thread alone that the standard of debate is streets ahead of any Brexit related discussion on my local rag's message board for example. And that's worth recognition.
What I would say is that the further into the process we get, the less comment there seems from those previously supportive of the policy.
I know some will say that's because in doing so they become targets for "abuse" (this also happens the other way around btw and is unhelpful in either case). I think it's noticeable though that when the Leavers do post it's invariably along the same lines of discussion as pre-referendum.
There's no new, remotely practical, suggestions as to how things could work, now we know more about the multitude of issues to be addressed. There's little recognition that things might be less straightforward than we were led to believe. There's no mention now (let alone evidence) of the clear benefits of the policy we are pursuing. Especially the financial case, which seems completely shown up to have been a falsehood as every day something new comes to light that's going to eat into the £350m bullshit, Brexit bonus claims in order to resolve it. We could go on and I'd genuinely welcome some positive news in among this utter shitfest tbh. But there isn't any really...otherwise Leavers would have posted it on this thread.
What we are starting to see a little more of from Leavers is some criticism/dissatisfaction of our government's handling of the negotiations...plus of course the regular conspiracy theories around the intransigence of the EU i.e. Brexit is the right thing to do it's just not being delivered properly or being obstructed. To me that smacks of avoidance and handwashing of an entirely foreseeable situation that was created by Leave and those that voted for it.
As @seth plum frequently points out Leave won. It's them and Leavers that should have thought these issues through and have an idea about how to address them. None of this is my doing. I'm afraid just blaming everybody else and blustering on about democracy is not really cutting the mustard at this late stage when there are real practical issues that need addressing.
It definitely seems like a lot of Leave voters would rather have lost so they could keep on moaning about the EU and blaming it for everything, than actually try to move things forward after winning.
It definitely seems like a lot of Leave voters would rather have lost so they could keep on moaning about the EU and blaming it for everything, than actually try to move things forward after winning.
I'm not sure if anyone truly feels like they "won" anything the way this is panning out.
The UK exports more to the Republic than to the USA so I believe.
The UK exports nearly 3 times as much to the USA ($61.6bn approx) than it does to Ireland ($22.9bn approx).
The USA is the UK's largest single export destination.
How is that possible? I thought one of the reasons the morons voted for Brexit was so we could do trade deals with the rest of the world!
By selling/exporting more stuff to the USA than they do to Ireland? Bit of a hunch/guesswork, I know, but may have legs.
Whoosh!
I think you whooshed yourself.
Don't think so. You don't seem able to post anything without a heavy dose of sarcasm of late. Bit like a 15 year old discovering sarcasm for the first time. It is tiresome and boring when adopted by a grown man.
Coming from the serial petulance offender, that's some compliment.
You seem incapable of posting without a churlish comment. Most likely born out of your inferiority complex. If you shout, scream, wave your arms about like a spoilt kid and generally be a bit of a dick towards people, it doesn't make you sound grown up. It accentuates your childlike manner.
Pot kettle? Amazing that you, with your posting history on here, think you can comment on dickish behaviour by other people!
Also amazing that you, a Millwall supporter, probably make more posts on this forum per month than I do. By this time next year you will have made more posts on here in total than me even though I have been a member since 2009 and you have been a member since 2012.
That'll teach me. I'm certain to have a rethink based on that criterion.
Yours,
Another Moron
If the cap fits.
I'll have a large.
That's the 10% that we humans use. I got rid of the rest.
One punter here even posts as two people....
Who? You’ve intimated at this before. I’m genuinely interested to know who you think this person is
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
That is certainly the presenting problem and the way it is being portrayed in the media. Whilst it's true that the government have been hugely ineffective, the underlying issues are far more important:
1. There were benefits that people were led to believe they'd get from leaving, that were simply unachievable. 2. There were benefits to staying that nobody considered and most were unaware that they even existed. 3. There are many practical issues that need the collective will of many parties and years of long term planning in order to solve. Some may even be completely intractable. 4. That prior to the referendum no-one had given the slightest thought as to what it really meant in practice or how it might be achieved.
The real problem is not the ineffective government, but the fact that the British people were sold a pup in the first place.
The government is not ineffective in the sense of being incompetent (although it may be that as well). It is carrying out a lengthy negotiation within itself about whether or not to leave the EU. This is because the Leave majority vote is not reflected in the circles of British society which actually make and carry out decisions, the political parties, the media, the rich and the civil service. The negotiation they are engaged in is not with the EU , but internally about what the minimum amount of change in the relationship with the EU they can get away with, without provoking the kind of reaction we have seen recently in Italy. The purpose of this prolonged negotiation is to get to a point where May can say on behalf of all the Remainers she represents 'look, we tried but could not get very far-we may as well stay'. If they had any intention of leaving they would be preparing for a no deal, which they are not. Once they had conceded on the Irish border issue last December and again this week, there was no longer any possibility we could get a deal with the EU which meant we would be leaving the jurisdiction of the four freedoms. Remainers should not be railing at the Government for its inefficiency ( on this issue) but for its effective , long drawn out campaign to stay under the aegis of the EU.
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
That is certainly the presenting problem and the way it is being portrayed in the media. Whilst it's true that the government have been hugely ineffective, the underlying issues are far more important:
1. There were benefits that people were led to believe they'd get from leaving, that were simply unachievable. 2. There were benefits to staying that nobody considered and most were unaware that they even existed. 3. There are many practical issues that need the collective will of many parties and years of long term planning in order to solve. Some may even be completely intractable. 4. That prior to the referendum no-one had given the slightest thought as to what it really meant in practice or how it might be achieved.
The real problem is not the ineffective government, but the fact that the British people were sold a pup in the first place.
The government is not ineffective in the sense of being incompetent (although it may be that as well). It is carrying out a lengthy negotiation within itself about whether or not to leave the EU. This is because the Leave majority vote is not reflected in the circles of British society which actually make and carry out decisions, the political parties, the media, the rich and the civil service. The negotiation they are engaged in is not with the EU , but internally about what the minimum amount of change in the relationship with the EU they can get away with, without provoking the kind of reaction we have seen recently in Italy. The purpose of this prolonged negotiation is to get to a point where May can say on behalf of all the Remainers she represents 'look, we tried but could not get very far-we may as well stay'. If they had any intention of leaving they would be preparing for a no deal, which they are not. Once they had conceded on the Irish border issue last December and again this week, there was no longer any possibility we could get a deal with the EU which meant we would be leaving the jurisdiction of the four freedoms. Remainers should not be railing at the Government for its inefficiency ( on this issue) but for its effective , long drawn out campaign to stay under the aegis of the EU.
Conceded what exactly on the Irish border issue?
The 'backstop'
The backstop was a suggestion from the UK in December. What on earth do you mean?
It's the will of the people. And everyone knew what they were voting for.
We thought we were voting to leave a Union of countries that we are not economically aligned with (they all use the same currency), that allows millions of people to freely enter our country (which is an island & already over capacity) & that impose laws that we have no say on (voting rights for prisoners) so that we can be self determined & set our own laws.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
That is certainly the presenting problem and the way it is being portrayed in the media. Whilst it's true that the government have been hugely ineffective, the underlying issues are far more important:
1. There were benefits that people were led to believe they'd get from leaving, that were simply unachievable. 2. There were benefits to staying that nobody considered and most were unaware that they even existed. 3. There are many practical issues that need the collective will of many parties and years of long term planning in order to solve. Some may even be completely intractable. 4. That prior to the referendum no-one had given the slightest thought as to what it really meant in practice or how it might be achieved.
The real problem is not the ineffective government, but the fact that the British people were sold a pup in the first place.
The government is not ineffective in the sense of being incompetent (although it may be that as well). It is carrying out a lengthy negotiation within itself about whether or not to leave the EU. This is because the Leave majority vote is not reflected in the circles of British society which actually make and carry out decisions, the political parties, the media, the rich and the civil service. The negotiation they are engaged in is not with the EU , but internally about what the minimum amount of change in the relationship with the EU they can get away with, without provoking the kind of reaction we have seen recently in Italy. The purpose of this prolonged negotiation is to get to a point where May can say on behalf of all the Remainers she represents 'look, we tried but could not get very far-we may as well stay'. If they had any intention of leaving they would be preparing for a no deal, which they are not. Once they had conceded on the Irish border issue last December and again this week, there was no longer any possibility we could get a deal with the EU which meant we would be leaving the jurisdiction of the four freedoms. Remainers should not be railing at the Government for its inefficiency ( on this issue) but for its effective , long drawn out campaign to stay under the aegis of the EU.
Conceded what exactly on the Irish border issue?
The 'backstop'
As @seth plum mentioned, the principle of a backstop was agreed in December, for all that David Davis tried to immediately renege upon what had been agreed.
Without the agreement that, in the absence of a trade deal, would allow the cross border relationship that HMG says it wants in Ireland, a backstop would be in place to allow the continuation of the current situation, there would have been no way of moving to political discussions, outlining the nature of the future relationship (mandating the trade negotiations that will follow Brexit).
The EU brought forward their legal interpretation by March, which was deemed unacceptable to the UK (at least in part because the EU did not address ensuring no trade borders between NI and GB, a logical omission as, post Brexit, that is a purely internal UK matter, for all that a paragraph was inserted to that effect to placate the DUP - I imagine that few Brexiteers would want the nature of internal UK relationships determined by the EU post Brexit).
The UK's, incomplete, legal text has been presented this week. It seems unlikely to meet with approval in Brussels and the EU27, and it is reasonable to assume that the Council meeting at the end of June will not signify dramatic progress - leaving us all facing a last minute scramble to revise any exit agreement in time for ratification (even if an emergency Council meeting is penned in to the schedule).
It's a very high risk strategy, if we're being kind, and assuming that HMG has a strategy. Both sides have to agree a legal text for the backstop, it cannot be left as a fudge, because it must have legal meaning and force.
I'd put the chances of no Brexit deal at all being agreed as being at least as strong as those for David Davis being made look unprofessional and unprepared at next week's talks.
And, if Brexit itself cannot be agreed satisfactorily, the chances of a future FTA are massively reduced.
There is a reason why, as part of their Brexit preparations, the PSNI are stopping the sale of mothballed border area police barracks. Happily, because it would have taken a genius to work out why, the Chief Constable (among others) has explained the rationale.
There is a big week on brexit coming up. Time and again the government have been asked to publish the white paper of their proposals, before the mega parliamentary day on Tuesday, before the mega meet with the EU. There have been indications that the white paper will have complete clarity on the government position. The white paper would inform parliamentary business, and the business with the EU. So what happens with the white paper? Shelved until next month. How long since the referendum? How long since article 50? All you brexit supporters reading this are well pleased it's all going so well. The clock has been ticking, and soon there will come a time when the clock has tocked. Your special secrets will be out in the open then.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Comments
People are the people they are, not what one would wish them to be.
Problem is our Government is useless & is making a pigs ear of it all.
The really simple solution is for a United Ireland.....wont happen just yet as there are still too many die-hards on either side, but it will happen....its written in the GFA.
UK citizens are allowed free entry into EU countries, people coming in contribute through work and paying taxes and arguably cultural enrichment. Only 5% of the UK land mass is built on.
No law has ever been imposed by the EU on the UK because the UK being participants in the EU had full 'say' on every law or regulation introduced, there are also plenty of domestic laws that the EU has not influenced.
You mentioned the Irish border in a post a day or two ago, that it should be established but you don't care if it is a wall of checkpoints or whatever.
How would you suggest that border is established? It is proving a difficulty for everybody, do you have a workable solution?
I agree about the UK government and am pleased I didn't vote for them, or vote brexit either.
There are no benefits from either beyond establishment figures gaining domestic power, one of the downsides seems to be a greater confidence and licence for people to be racists.
Many of us (who knows, possibly most of us?) don't want to leave the EU. But, you're right, we are having to trust politicians to deliver against a terrible and unclear decision we made a few years ago. And that decision was reached by all sorts of people, from those who fully understand the implications of withdrawal and its associated constitutional impact, all the way down to those who don't know the difference between Richard Hammond and Philip Hammond, and beyond.
As for the fact that only 5% of the UK is built on.....totally agree.....but I can't see too many people wanting to live in Snowdonia or the Highlands of Scotland. It wouod certsonly eleviate our housing & social problems & when I become Home Secretary I will be making plans for anyone entering the UK from here on in to be given a train ticket & directions to Durness...(look it up - I've played golf there)
A United Ireland is not written in to the GFA, study article six of it.
1. There were benefits that people were led to believe they'd get from leaving, that were simply unachievable.
2. There were benefits to staying that nobody considered and most were unaware that they even existed.
3. There are many practical issues that need the collective will of many parties and years of long term planning in order to solve. Some may even be completely intractable.
4. That prior to the referendum no-one had given the slightest thought as to what it really meant in practice or how it might be achieved.
The real problem is not the ineffective government, but the fact that the British people were sold a pup in the first place.
Then after the vote and the subsequent economic turmoil we're told they're quite happy for a longer term economic hit to get what they want.
Then when Scotland and NI protested they didn't want to leave we're told they're quite happy to break up the union to get what they want.
Now, with nothing like a workable border solution even proposed, werey told they're quite happy for people to die to get what they want.
I'm genuinely quite scared about what's next. They're appears to be nothing they won't sacrifice, nothing too terrible that could happen, that they won't willingly accept to get their childish wish fulfillment.
And the worst thing is they won't even take an ounce of responsibility for any of the above. It's always somebody else's thought it's happening and somebody else's responsibility to try and fix.
They will pauper us for generations and blame the EU for doing it to us.
Unless they want something they're not telling us about.
The negotiation they are engaged in is not with the EU , but internally about what the minimum amount of change in the relationship with the EU they can get away with, without provoking the kind of reaction we have seen recently in Italy.
The purpose of this prolonged negotiation is to get to a point where May can say on behalf of all the Remainers she represents 'look, we tried but could not get very far-we may as well stay'.
If they had any intention of leaving they would be preparing for a no deal, which they are not.
Once they had conceded on the Irish border issue last December and again this week, there was no longer any possibility we could get a deal with the EU which meant we would be leaving the jurisdiction of the four freedoms.
Remainers should not be railing at the Government for its inefficiency ( on this issue) but congratulating it for its effective , long drawn out campaign to stay under the aegis of the EU.
What I would say is that the further into the process we get, the less comment there seems from those previously supportive of the policy.
I know some will say that's because in doing so they become targets for "abuse" (this also happens the other way around btw and is unhelpful in either case). I think it's noticeable though that when the Leavers do post it's invariably along the same lines of discussion as pre-referendum.
There's no new, remotely practical, suggestions as to how things could work, now we know more about the multitude of issues to be addressed. There's little recognition that things might be less straightforward than we were led to believe. There's no mention now (let alone evidence) of the clear benefits of the policy we are pursuing. Especially the financial case, which seems completely shown up to have been a falsehood as every day something new comes to light that's going to eat into the £350m bullshit, Brexit bonus claims in order to resolve it. We could go on and I'd genuinely welcome some positive news in among this utter shitfest tbh. But there isn't any really...otherwise Leavers would have posted it on this thread.
What we are starting to see a little more of from Leavers is some criticism/dissatisfaction of our government's handling of the negotiations...plus of course the regular conspiracy theories around the intransigence of the EU i.e. Brexit is the right thing to do it's just not being delivered properly or being obstructed. To me that smacks of avoidance and handwashing of an entirely foreseeable situation that was created by Leave and those that voted for it.
As @seth plum frequently points out Leave won. It's them and Leavers that should have thought these issues through and have an idea about how to address them. None of this is my doing. I'm afraid just blaming everybody else and blustering on about democracy is not really cutting the mustard at this late stage when there are real practical issues that need addressing.
What on earth do you mean?
Without the agreement that, in the absence of a trade deal, would allow the cross border relationship that HMG says it wants in Ireland, a backstop would be in place to allow the continuation of the current situation, there would have been no way of moving to political discussions, outlining the nature of the future relationship (mandating the trade negotiations that will follow Brexit).
The EU brought forward their legal interpretation by March, which was deemed unacceptable to the UK (at least in part because the EU did not address ensuring no trade borders between NI and GB, a logical omission as, post Brexit, that is a purely internal UK matter, for all that a paragraph was inserted to that effect to placate the DUP - I imagine that few Brexiteers would want the nature of internal UK relationships determined by the EU post Brexit).
The UK's, incomplete, legal text has been presented this week. It seems unlikely to meet with approval in Brussels and the EU27, and it is reasonable to assume that the Council meeting at the end of June will not signify dramatic progress - leaving us all facing a last minute scramble to revise any exit agreement in time for ratification (even if an emergency Council meeting is penned in to the schedule).
It's a very high risk strategy, if we're being kind, and assuming that HMG has a strategy. Both sides have to agree a legal text for the backstop, it cannot be left as a fudge, because it must have legal meaning and force.
I'd put the chances of no Brexit deal at all being agreed as being at least as strong as those for David Davis being made look unprofessional and unprepared at next week's talks.
And, if Brexit itself cannot be agreed satisfactorily, the chances of a future FTA are massively reduced.
There is a reason why, as part of their Brexit preparations, the PSNI are stopping the sale of mothballed border area police barracks. Happily, because it would have taken a genius to work out why, the Chief Constable (among others) has explained the rationale.
Time and again the government have been asked to publish the white paper of their proposals, before the mega parliamentary day on Tuesday, before the mega meet with the EU. There have been indications that the white paper will have complete clarity on the government position.
The white paper would inform parliamentary business, and the business with the EU.
So what happens with the white paper? Shelved until next month.
How long since the referendum?
How long since article 50?
All you brexit supporters reading this are well pleased it's all going so well.
The clock has been ticking, and soon there will come a time when the clock has tocked. Your special secrets will be out in the open then.
https://theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.