Obviously the media coverage of politics is important and the ubiquitous presence of Farage a couple of years back was something of a phenomenon. As Slavoj Zizek would say "embrace the dispair - the light at the end of the tunnel is that of an oncoming train!"
Today however maturity returns to the discussion and we finally have choices. Those who comment on events and presentations on social media are in a unique position to make a powerful contribution to our democracy.
Some stories such as Cambridge Analytica can go viral and the Alt-right are out there in no man's land being shot at. The print media has been in decline for decades, we have decent enough TV and now we have the FAANGS shaping our world.
We can complain for sure. But we can also highlight where we see truth as well as contradictions and debate these faultlines amicably in the knowledge that we are either on solid ground or events might prove us wrong. (Please forgive the mixed metaphors around solid ground)
And it appears that events and the lack of development is isolating the hard Brexit camp whilst proving that the likes of @seth plum had a valid point all along. Not just valid but critical! About Ireland and Brexiteers owning the result. In addition the Euro hasn't collapsed and immigration has fallen even with no legal changes. We are in a different place to 2016. And perceptions will surely change again over the next six to nine months.
Starmer is very bright, very articulate and he has already engineered a Labour policy shift four months ago around the Customs Union. That might prove to be extremely shrewd in the months to come? There's a lively debate around Labour and the SM but, but, but... where is the media interrogation of the government position? And where we might end up next March?
Labour maintain ambiguity because they are not the anti-referendum party. And they never were but that's another discussion.
One might hope there will come a time where truth and expert analysis starts to matter again when it comes to public discourse. And we can play our part on social media perhaps?
When more and more start to realise that the outcome next March is not the "right kind of Brexit" what then? How will Marr, Peston and Neill handle that scenario?
My contribution is to state that a Norway style option isn't a bad thing and that we can still land there without too much disruption. What I would add is that the whole process has both animated the under 30s as well as showing up the hard Brexiteers as charlatans.
Interestingly the latest polls show that a hard Brexit is unacceptable to the vast majority. It has been a journey and we now enter an extremely bumpy phase. We must acknowledge @Southbank views on millions of voters preferences even if we dispute the way forwards. Ultimately the centre is under an awful lot of pressure across Western democracies.
Time will tell if they deliver solutions. Our media and our social media interactions might help that process?
Marr (Maoist Cambidge graduate), Preston (son of a Lord) and especially Neill (multi millionaire, Blair supporting, war enthusiast twat who the BBC pays more than the Prime Minister earns) et al will continue to not give a shit.
Returning to their £2 million plus homes, cosseted from reality thanks to their huge media incomes and related benefits.
They will carry on attending their exclusive restaurants, clubs, schools whilst pretending to care about anything but themselves.
The struggle ebbs and flows. It looks like that at the moment we're in the 'May voted remain, Hammond voted remain, the civil service are the establishment so they don't want brexit to happen.
This has edged ahead of 'the EU are being bastards, particularly the Irish', and 'the House of Lords are being bastards' and 'the Judges are being bastards' and 'The House of Commons is full of bastards' which has left 'remainers talking the country down' trailing behind.
All of that lot could be lumped together as 'they'.
What a conspiracy eh? Against the 'will of the people democratically expressed'.
Could it actually be that the brexiters don't have a clue what to do with their win, so they are like children yelling at the conspirators 'not to put them off, they're trying to think, it's SOOOOOOO unfair!'
I reckon the peoples vote/second referendum lot will hove into view as a bunch of bastards soon. That will be very welcome to the brexiters because they will have a fresh lot of people to blame, and they will continue to avoid having to come up with solutions to the problems they have ushered in.
Because we are so far down the road my inclination is simply to say there you are brexiters, have your brexit which is increasingly looking like the cliff edge.
But perleeese, when the chaos ensues, own it, because it is 100% yours.
No problem. I'll take ownership of it. We, as a country, have been through worse. 1973 & 1979 come to mind. I don't believe for a moment that there will be food shortages or nothing coming through Dover for weeks. Bring it on......do your worst. We thrive in adversity. Anyone not up for it can move abroad......I hear Italy is nice this time of year.
The struggle ebbs and flows. It looks like that at the moment we're in the 'May voted remain, Hammond voted remain, the civil service are the establishment so they don't want brexit to happen.
This has edged ahead of 'the EU are being bastards, particularly the Irish', and 'the House of Lords are being bastards' and 'the Judges are being bastards' and 'The House of Commons is full of bastards' which has left 'remainers talking the country down' trailing behind.
All of that lot could be lumped together as 'they'.
What a conspiracy eh? Against the 'will of the people democratically expressed'.
Could it actually be that the brexiters don't have a clue what to do with their win, so they are like children yelling at the conspirators 'not to put them off, they're trying to think, it's SOOOOOOO unfair!'
I reckon the peoples vote/second referendum lot will hove into view as a bunch of bastards soon. That will be very welcome to the brexiters because they will have a fresh lot of people to blame, and they will continue to avoid having to come up with solutions to the problems they have ushered in.
Because we are so far down the road my inclination is simply to say there you are brexiters, have your brexit which is increasingly looking like the cliff edge.
But perleeese, when the chaos ensues, own it, because it is 100% yours.
No problem. I'll take ownership of it. We, as a country, have been through worse. 1973 & 1979 come to mind. I don't believe for a moment that there will be food shortages or nothing coming through Dover for weeks. Bring it on......do your worst. We thrive in adversity. Anyone not up for it can move abroad......I hear Italy is nice this time of year.
What will our arrangement with Italy with regards free movement of people be like post Brexit, could we just rock up there like we can now?
The struggle ebbs and flows. It looks like that at the moment we're in the 'May voted remain, Hammond voted remain, the civil service are the establishment so they don't want brexit to happen.
This has edged ahead of 'the EU are being bastards, particularly the Irish', and 'the House of Lords are being bastards' and 'the Judges are being bastards' and 'The House of Commons is full of bastards' which has left 'remainers talking the country down' trailing behind.
All of that lot could be lumped together as 'they'.
What a conspiracy eh? Against the 'will of the people democratically expressed'.
Could it actually be that the brexiters don't have a clue what to do with their win, so they are like children yelling at the conspirators 'not to put them off, they're trying to think, it's SOOOOOOO unfair!'
I reckon the peoples vote/second referendum lot will hove into view as a bunch of bastards soon. That will be very welcome to the brexiters because they will have a fresh lot of people to blame, and they will continue to avoid having to come up with solutions to the problems they have ushered in.
Because we are so far down the road my inclination is simply to say there you are brexiters, have your brexit which is increasingly looking like the cliff edge.
But perleeese, when the chaos ensues, own it, because it is 100% yours.
No problem. I'll take ownership of it. We, as a country, have been through worse. 1973 & 1979 come to mind. I don't believe for a moment that there will be food shortages or nothing coming through Dover for weeks. Bring it on......do your worst. We thrive in adversity. Anyone not up for it can move abroad......I hear Italy is nice this time of year.
What will our arrangement with Italy with regards free movement of people be like post Brexit, could we just rock up there like we can now?
Just like all the people who didn't want to be in the EU moved abroad because they didn't like it?
The struggle ebbs and flows. It looks like that at the moment we're in the 'May voted remain, Hammond voted remain, the civil service are the establishment so they don't want brexit to happen.
This has edged ahead of 'the EU are being bastards, particularly the Irish', and 'the House of Lords are being bastards' and 'the Judges are being bastards' and 'The House of Commons is full of bastards' which has left 'remainers talking the country down' trailing behind.
All of that lot could be lumped together as 'they'.
What a conspiracy eh? Against the 'will of the people democratically expressed'.
Could it actually be that the brexiters don't have a clue what to do with their win, so they are like children yelling at the conspirators 'not to put them off, they're trying to think, it's SOOOOOOO unfair!'
I reckon the peoples vote/second referendum lot will hove into view as a bunch of bastards soon. That will be very welcome to the brexiters because they will have a fresh lot of people to blame, and they will continue to avoid having to come up with solutions to the problems they have ushered in.
Because we are so far down the road my inclination is simply to say there you are brexiters, have your brexit which is increasingly looking like the cliff edge.
But perleeese, when the chaos ensues, own it, because it is 100% yours.
No problem. I'll take ownership of it. We, as a country, have been through worse. 1973 & 1979 come to mind. I don't believe for a moment that there will be food shortages or nothing coming through Dover for weeks. Bring it on......do your worst. We thrive in adversity. Anyone not up for it can move abroad......I hear Italy is nice this time of year.
Good plan, that should keep research funding in our universities going or more to the point my job and my mortgage payments.
Marr (Maoist Cambidge graduate), Preston (son of a Lord) and especially Neill (multi millionaire, Blair supporting, war enthusiast twat who the BBC pays more than the Prime Minister earns) et al will continue to not give a shit.
Returning to their £2 million plus homes, cosseted from reality thanks to their huge media incomes and related benefits.
They will carry on attending their exclusive restaurants, clubs, schools whilst pretending to care about anything but themselves.
I think you have not read Robert Peston's most recent book "WTF". Anyone who has read it would surely give him a break. Not only does he show that he "gets it" ("it" being the point you make) but the book goes on to make a whole raft of radical yet practical proposals which address the root causes of ordinary people's discontent. That sets him apart from most politicians as well as Marr (who likes to write history books extolling what a great nation the UK is) and Neill who cannot write much more than a tweet, usually a personal attack.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
There is a very real reason why world political figures recognised and said that Brexit was a mistake. Totally different from the dark money and destabilising antics of Putins Russia. The G7 meeting recognised this meddling approach by Putin and has said it must stop.
If you are equating those two very different scenarios it’s I’m afraid another example of brexiteer moronic delusion.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
How does Obama benefit? Perhaps he is just a wise man who looks at the whole picture and wants to give people the benefit of his advice, when they are too stupid to see the wood for the trees?
As you admit that "every foreign leader" joined the remain campaign, perhaps they are a little more clued up than the quitters?
Marr (Maoist Cambidge graduate), Preston (son of a Lord) and especially Neill (multi millionaire, Blair supporting, war enthusiast twat who the BBC pays more than the Prime Minister earns) et al will continue to not give a shit.
Returning to their £2 million plus homes, cosseted from reality thanks to their huge media incomes and related benefits.
They will carry on attending their exclusive restaurants, clubs, schools whilst pretending to care about anything but themselves.
I think you have not read Robert Peston's most recent book "WTF". Anyone who has read it would surely give him a break. Not only does he show that he "gets it" ("it" being the point you make) but the book goes on to make a whole raft of radical yet practical proposals which address the root causes of ordinary people's discontent. That sets him apart from most politicians as well as Marr (who likes to write history books extolling what a great nation the UK is) and Neill who cannot write much more than a tweet, usually a personal attack.
The struggle ebbs and flows. It looks like that at the moment we're in the 'May voted remain, Hammond voted remain, the civil service are the establishment so they don't want brexit to happen.
This has edged ahead of 'the EU are being bastards, particularly the Irish', and 'the House of Lords are being bastards' and 'the Judges are being bastards' and 'The House of Commons is full of bastards' which has left 'remainers talking the country down' trailing behind.
All of that lot could be lumped together as 'they'.
What a conspiracy eh? Against the 'will of the people democratically expressed'.
Could it actually be that the brexiters don't have a clue what to do with their win, so they are like children yelling at the conspirators 'not to put them off, they're trying to think, it's SOOOOOOO unfair!'
I reckon the peoples vote/second referendum lot will hove into view as a bunch of bastards soon. That will be very welcome to the brexiters because they will have a fresh lot of people to blame, and they will continue to avoid having to come up with solutions to the problems they have ushered in.
Because we are so far down the road my inclination is simply to say there you are brexiters, have your brexit which is increasingly looking like the cliff edge.
But perleeese, when the chaos ensues, own it, because it is 100% yours.
No problem. I'll take ownership of it. We, as a country, have been through worse. 1973 & 1979 come to mind. I don't believe for a moment that there will be food shortages or nothing coming through Dover for weeks. Bring it on......do your worst. We thrive in adversity. Anyone not up for it can move abroad......I hear Italy is nice this time of year.
There is a raw honesty in your brexit supporting post which I admire. One question. Will you take ownership after it finally happens, or do you take ownership of everything that has happened since the referendum?
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
When the only foreign leaders or politicians who supported Brexit were Trump, Putin, Victor Orban, Le Pen and the likes of Welders in the Netherlands amongst various other far-right fringe lunatics across Europe it is no surprise that most people on the progressive side of politics in the world supported Remain.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
There is a very real reason why world political figures recognised and said that Brexit was a mistake. Totally different from the dark money and destabilising antics of Putins Russia. The G7 meeting recognised this meddling approach by Putin and has said it must stop.
If you are equating those two very different scenarios it’s I’m afraid another example of brexiteer moronic delusion.
And the 'very real' reason you think that is because you are a Remainer who thinks your vote was perfectly rational but Leavers voted because they were tricked or duped.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
Nobody is gradually overturning the Brexit decision.
Marr (Maoist Cambidge graduate), Preston (son of a Lord) and especially Neill (multi millionaire, Blair supporting, war enthusiast twat who the BBC pays more than the Prime Minister earns) et al will continue to not give a shit.
Returning to their £2 million plus homes, cosseted from reality thanks to their huge media incomes and related benefits.
They will carry on attending their exclusive restaurants, clubs, schools whilst pretending to care about anything but themselves.
I think you have not read Robert Peston's most recent book "WTF". Anyone who has read it would surely give him a break. Not only does he show that he "gets it" ("it" being the point you make) but the book goes on to make a whole raft of radical yet practical proposals which address the root causes of ordinary people's discontent. That sets him apart from most politicians as well as Marr (who likes to write history books extolling what a great nation the UK is) and Neill who cannot write much more than a tweet, usually a personal attack.
No, not read it, but read 'Brown's Britain'. Some astonishing insights into those calamitous years. Not mentioned on CL for some reason.
But nevertheless, and irrespective of a book he produced, he is still, as I said, the son of a Lord, an Oxford graduate with a very privileged background and no fear of slipping into a low income bracket who lives in a multi-million pound house in Camden.
As he said in the Evening Standard ''My neighbours have been extraordinarily welcoming, even putting me on the team for our road’s New Year’s Day football match. I love that the community is not just poshos like me, so I can buy a lavatory brush in a proper hardware store and gluten-free bread. I joined The Groucho in 1985 when it opened. It was fun and slightly sleazy then, and is fun and slightly sleazy now. Which is obvs what I aspire to be.''
I suggest he is pretty immune to the disasters that may come from Brexit. Surely there is nothing to argue about there?
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
So, let me get this straight, you are arguing that efforts in Parliament to have MPs determine what Brexit will look like (which seems at least almost reasonable in a Parliamentary democracy), as well as the efforts by others to make a case for another referendum for the people to decide on the deal, if any, (both of which are in the public domain and upfront) are a bigger threat to democracy than the impact of hidden money and, admittedly, intelligent, if morally questionable methods and the people behind them (none of which is open and upfront - witness funding for the DUP's London media campaign)?
Apologies for the length of the question, but, if you don't see that there is a fundamental issue about accountability in organisations seeking to influence the political direction of the state, accepting funding from opaque sources and employing targeted advertising based on personal data obtained in circumstances that give pause for thought, I really worry about your sense of perspective.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
Not sure how you can make a statement like that. The only people who can overturn the decision are the British people and there is absolutely nothing wrong with remainers trying to get to that to happen as Brexiters would if the circumstances were reversed.
A lot of the argument seems to be around those wanting a hard Brexit and a Soft one. A failing of the referendum and a perfectly valid area for debate given that. What is undemocratic and quite frankly ridiculous is people saying I didn't vote for this or I didn't vote for that, like the whole vote was about their reasons! Just look at the polls which are showing a clear preference for a soft Brexit amongst the British people.
Then there is a statement even more ridiculous. We voted for a Hard Brexit becaise Cameron and Osborne told us that is what we would get! Well everything they said was project fear and not true when they said it, but now it suits them, it is the basis for proving we all wanted a hard Brexit.
There are different ways of leaving the EU and anybody with a modicum of mathematical ability would easily be able to show that there is no appetite for a hard Brexit. Seeing as the question was not asked, we only know the decision was to leave, we can safely assume that pretty much all of the 48% that voted remain will prefer a soft Brexit if it is between that or a hard one. So only a small percentage of leavers need to want a soft Brexit to tip the balance and all the reliable information we have demonstrates this actually is the case.
So I am going to make the same accusation that hard Brexiters are making and turn it on them. These people are not interested in the will of the British people! The are anti-democratic.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
So, let me get this straight, you are arguing that efforts in Parliament to have MPs determine what Brexit will look like (which seems at least almost reasonable in a Parliamentary democracy), as well as the efforts by others to make a case for another referendum for the people to decide on the deal, if any, (both of which are in the public domain and upfront) are a bigger threat to democracy than the impact of hidden money and, admittedly, intelligent, if morally questionable methods and the people behind them (none of which is open and upfront - witness funding for the DUP's London media campaign)?
Apologies for the length of the question, but, if you don't see that there is a fundamental issue about accountability in organisations seeking to influence the political direction of the state, accepting funding from opaque sources and employing targeted advertising based on personal data obtained in circumstances that give pause for thought, I really worry about your sense of perspective.
The most important accountability in a democracy is elected representatives being and remaining accountable to the people. What I currently see is our two main political parties, both of which stood on a Brexit programme last year, manoeuvring their way towards a relationship with the EU which is distinguishable from full membership only in that it makes us less influential within the EU than before-an outcome nobody wants.
There may have been different ideas of what Brexit would mean, but staying in the Customs Union, the single market, being under the ECJ and accepting freedom of movement, while paying money and having no say over the rules was NOBODY' s idea of Brexit. This is the road we are travelling down because the political majorities in this country never supported leaving and have done their best to avoid it.
You may support this, which is your right, but please do not lecture me about accountability or democracy at the same time.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
So, let me get this straight, you are arguing that efforts in Parliament to have MPs determine what Brexit will look like (which seems at least almost reasonable in a Parliamentary democracy), as well as the efforts by others to make a case for another referendum for the people to decide on the deal, if any, (both of which are in the public domain and upfront) are a bigger threat to democracy than the impact of hidden money and, admittedly, intelligent, if morally questionable methods and the people behind them (none of which is open and upfront - witness funding for the DUP's London media campaign)?
Apologies for the length of the question, but, if you don't see that there is a fundamental issue about accountability in organisations seeking to influence the political direction of the state, accepting funding from opaque sources and employing targeted advertising based on personal data obtained in circumstances that give pause for thought, I really worry about your sense of perspective.
The most important accountability in a democracy is elected representatives being and remaining accountable to the people. What I currently see is our two main political parties, both of which stood on a Brexit programme last year, manoeuvring their way towards a relationship with the EU which is distinguishable from full membership only in that it makes us less influential within the EU than before-an outcome nobody wants.
There may have been different ideas of what Brexit would mean, but staying in the Customs Union, the single market, being under the ECJ and accepting freedom of movement, while paying money and having no say over the rules was NOBODY' s idea of Brexit. This is the road we are travelling down because the political majorities in this country never supported leaving and have done their best to avoid it.
You may support this, which is your right, but please do not lecture me about accountability or democracy at the same time.
You are talking about something that looks like the Norway model a lot of Brexiters used, including Farage, as something we could successfully adopt before the vote. Farage never said, well actially Norway are in the EU!!! Norway is not in the EU. You say they are in a pub quiz and try to argue you are right!!!! So what you are trying to say is YOUR opinion, not the truth. What I am saying is based on there being more than one way to leave the EU and two extreme points with positions between them. The vote was YES or NO - it wasn't Hard or Soft. It probably should have been but it wasn't!!!! If the vote was YES or NO and if the vote is NO do you wish to negotiate new treaties with the EU or just leave altogether. All voters should have been able to answer the second question, and we wouldn't be in such a mess now!!!!
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
Not sure how you can make a statement like that. The only people who can overturn the decision are the British people and there is absolutely nothing wrong with remainers trying to get to that to happen as Brexiters would if the circumstances were reversed.
A lot of the argument seems to be around those wanting a hard Brexit and a Soft one. A failing of the referendum and a perfectly valid area for debate given that. What is undemocratic and quite frankly ridiculous is people saying I didn't vote for this or I didn't vote for that, like the whole vote was about their reasons! Just look at the polls which are showing a clear preference for a soft Brexit amongst the British people.
Then there is a statement even more ridiculous. We voted for a Hard Brexit becaise Cameron and Osborne told us that is what we would get! Well everything they said was project fear and not true when they said it, but now it suits them, it is the basis for proving we all wanted a hard Brexit.
There are different ways of leaving the EU and anybody with a modicum of mathematical ability would easily be able to show that there is no appetite for a hard Brexit. Seeing as the question was not asked, we only know the decision was to leave, we can safely assume that pretty much all of the 48% that voted remain will prefer a soft Brexit if it is between that or a hard one. So only a small percentage of leavers need to want a soft Brexit to tip the balance and all the reliable information we have demonstrates this actually is the case.
So I am going to make the same accusation that hard Brexiters are making and turn it on them. These people are not interested in the will of the British people! The are anti-democratic.
The priblem is that soft Brexit does not exist, at best it is soft Remain, which means accepting all the rules and paying money but having no say. That is where we are heading and nobody will be happy with that. Asking the question 'would you prefer a soft Brexit' is dishonest for that reason. But if you have a different view of what soft Brexit is I would be interested to hear it.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
How does Obama benefit? Perhaps he is just a wise man who looks at the whole picture and wants to give people the benefit of his advice, when they are too stupid to see the wood for the trees?
As you admit that "every foreign leader" joined the remain campaign, perhaps they are a little more clued up than the quitters?
So Remain campaigners in the ruling elites are wise men and women acting only from altruistic motives and with no stake in the status quo? I am no fan of Corbyn but his description of the EU as a rich man's club is bang on.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
Not sure how you can make a statement like that. The only people who can overturn the decision are the British people and there is absolutely nothing wrong with remainers trying to get to that to happen as Brexiters would if the circumstances were reversed.
A lot of the argument seems to be around those wanting a hard Brexit and a Soft one. A failing of the referendum and a perfectly valid area for debate given that. What is undemocratic and quite frankly ridiculous is people saying I didn't vote for this or I didn't vote for that, like the whole vote was about their reasons! Just look at the polls which are showing a clear preference for a soft Brexit amongst the British people.
Then there is a statement even more ridiculous. We voted for a Hard Brexit becaise Cameron and Osborne told us that is what we would get! Well everything they said was project fear and not true when they said it, but now it suits them, it is the basis for proving we all wanted a hard Brexit.
There are different ways of leaving the EU and anybody with a modicum of mathematical ability would easily be able to show that there is no appetite for a hard Brexit. Seeing as the question was not asked, we only know the decision was to leave, we can safely assume that pretty much all of the 48% that voted remain will prefer a soft Brexit if it is between that or a hard one. So only a small percentage of leavers need to want a soft Brexit to tip the balance and all the reliable information we have demonstrates this actually is the case.
So I am going to make the same accusation that hard Brexiters are making and turn it on them. These people are not interested in the will of the British people! The are anti-democratic.
The priblem is that soft Brexit does not exist, at best it is soft Remain, which means accepting all the rules and paying money but having no say. That is where we are heading and nobody will be happy with that. Asking the question 'would you prefer a soft Brexit' is dishonest for that reason. But if you have a different view of what soft Brexit is I would be interested to hear it.
Of course it exists - polls are showing that a large majority of the British public want it over a hard one, whereas it is too close to call now between leave and remain. This should tell you the two questions are not the same, even if you hold a different view!
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
So, let me get this straight, you are arguing that efforts in Parliament to have MPs determine what Brexit will look like (which seems at least almost reasonable in a Parliamentary democracy), as well as the efforts by others to make a case for another referendum for the people to decide on the deal, if any, (both of which are in the public domain and upfront) are a bigger threat to democracy than the impact of hidden money and, admittedly, intelligent, if morally questionable methods and the people behind them (none of which is open and upfront - witness funding for the DUP's London media campaign)?
Apologies for the length of the question, but, if you don't see that there is a fundamental issue about accountability in organisations seeking to influence the political direction of the state, accepting funding from opaque sources and employing targeted advertising based on personal data obtained in circumstances that give pause for thought, I really worry about your sense of perspective.
The most important accountability in a democracy is elected representatives being and remaining accountable to the people. What I currently see is our two main political parties, both of which stood on a Brexit programme last year, manoeuvring their way towards a relationship with the EU which is distinguishable from full membership only in that it makes us less influential within the EU than before-an outcome nobody wants. There may have been different ideas of what Brexit would mean, but staying in the Customs Union, the single market, being under the ECJ and accepting freedom of movement, while paying money and having no say over the rules was NOBODY' s idea of Brexit. This is the road we are travelling down because the political majorities in this country never supported leaving and have done their best to avoid it.
You may support this, which is your right, but please do not lecture me about accountability or democracy at the same time.
I think you might be on to something there. It might be possible that for the majority of people it was simply about passport colour. My assertion is that what you say brexit was about and what I say brexit was about are equal. The reality is that brexit has happened, and it is about brexiters operating their well oiled machine to implement the brexit they had all agreed ought to happen. Nobody is stopping them.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
So, let me get this straight, you are arguing that efforts in Parliament to have MPs determine what Brexit will look like (which seems at least almost reasonable in a Parliamentary democracy), as well as the efforts by others to make a case for another referendum for the people to decide on the deal, if any, (both of which are in the public domain and upfront) are a bigger threat to democracy than the impact of hidden money and, admittedly, intelligent, if morally questionable methods and the people behind them (none of which is open and upfront - witness funding for the DUP's London media campaign)?
Apologies for the length of the question, but, if you don't see that there is a fundamental issue about accountability in organisations seeking to influence the political direction of the state, accepting funding from opaque sources and employing targeted advertising based on personal data obtained in circumstances that give pause for thought, I really worry about your sense of perspective.
The most important accountability in a democracy is elected representatives being and remaining accountable to the people. What I currently see is our two main political parties, both of which stood on a Brexit programme last year, manoeuvring their way towards a relationship with the EU which is distinguishable from full membership only in that it makes us less influential within the EU than before-an outcome nobody wants.
There may have been different ideas of what Brexit would mean, but staying in the Customs Union, the single market, being under the ECJ and accepting freedom of movement, while paying money and having no say over the rules was NOBODY' s idea of Brexit. This is the road we are travelling down because the political majorities in this country never supported leaving and have done their best to avoid it.
You may support this, which is your right, but please do not lecture me about accountability or democracy at the same time.
You are talking about something that looks like the Norway model a lot of Brexiters used, including Farage, as something we could successfully adopt before the vote. Farage never said, well actially Norway are in the EU!!! Norway is not in the EU. You say they are in a pub quiz and try to argue you are right!!!! So what you are trying to say is YOUR opinion, not the truth. What I am saying is based on there being more than one way to leave the EU and two extreme points with positions between them. The vote was YES or NO - it wasn't Hard or Soft. It probably should have been but it wasn't!!!! If the vote was YES or NO and if the vote is NO do you wish to negotiate new treaties with the EU or just leave altogether. All voters should have been able to answer the second question, and we wouldn't be in such a mess now!!!!
Show me a Brexit campaign leaflet which said we should stay in the CU, the SM, remain under the aegis of the ECJ, allow free movement and continue to pay the EU.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
How does Obama benefit? Perhaps he is just a wise man who looks at the whole picture and wants to give people the benefit of his advice, when they are too stupid to see the wood for the trees?
As you admit that "every foreign leader" joined the remain campaign, perhaps they are a little more clued up than the quitters?
So Remain campaigners in the ruling elites are wise men and women acting only from altruistic motives and with no stake in the status quo? I am no fan of Corbyn but his description of the EU as a rich man's club is bang on.
I think it is bang on too, but it doesn't mean we won't be damaged by leaving it.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
Not sure how you can make a statement like that. The only people who can overturn the decision are the British people and there is absolutely nothing wrong with remainers trying to get to that to happen as Brexiters would if the circumstances were reversed.
A lot of the argument seems to be around those wanting a hard Brexit and a Soft one. A failing of the referendum and a perfectly valid area for debate given that. What is undemocratic and quite frankly ridiculous is people saying I didn't vote for this or I didn't vote for that, like the whole vote was about their reasons! Just look at the polls which are showing a clear preference for a soft Brexit amongst the British people.
Then there is a statement even more ridiculous. We voted for a Hard Brexit becaise Cameron and Osborne told us that is what we would get! Well everything they said was project fear and not true when they said it, but now it suits them, it is the basis for proving we all wanted a hard Brexit.
There are different ways of leaving the EU and anybody with a modicum of mathematical ability would easily be able to show that there is no appetite for a hard Brexit. Seeing as the question was not asked, we only know the decision was to leave, we can safely assume that pretty much all of the 48% that voted remain will prefer a soft Brexit if it is between that or a hard one. So only a small percentage of leavers need to want a soft Brexit to tip the balance and all the reliable information we have demonstrates this actually is the case.
So I am going to make the same accusation that hard Brexiters are making and turn it on them. These people are not interested in the will of the British people! The are anti-democratic.
The priblem is that soft Brexit does not exist, at best it is soft Remain, which means accepting all the rules and paying money but having no say. That is where we are heading and nobody will be happy with that. Asking the question 'would you prefer a soft Brexit' is dishonest for that reason. But if you have a different view of what soft Brexit is I would be interested to hear it.
Of course it exists - polls are showing that a large majority of the British public want it over a hard one, whereas it is too close to call now between leave and remain. This should tell you the two questions are not the same, even if you hold a different view!
If it exists, please explain what it is that is different from my description of 'soft remain'.
Blimey, it turns out the bloke bankrolling the Leave campaign more than any other has been caught out lying about his links with Russia. Who would have thought it...
By sheer coincidence presumably, around the same time Mr Banks was provided with an opportunity to invest in Russian gold businesses worth £billions. What fortunate timing.
Well that explains it. In did wonder who the guy was that was holding a gun to my head when i voted.
Are you for real? Whatever way a person voted in the referendum surely we have to be very concerned when foreign governments attempt/succeed in influencing events to their own benefit.
So much for taking back control.
Were you equally concerned when every foreign leader from Obama down joined in the Remain campaign during the referendum campaign, or that the campaign for a second referendum is part funded by non Brits? I do not recall if you were, perhaps you could enlighten us?
You see an equivalence between democratically elected allies expressing their opinion in public and non elected dictators (who many would describe as our enemy) secretly using cash to influence our country?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
I see people like you getting het up about conspiracy theories because you hate Brexit. You meanwhile are totally blind to the fact that it is Remainers at home and abroad who are gradually overturning the Brexit decision-I fear the home grown attack on democracy more than Putin any day.
So, let me get this straight, you are arguing that efforts in Parliament to have MPs determine what Brexit will look like (which seems at least almost reasonable in a Parliamentary democracy), as well as the efforts by others to make a case for another referendum for the people to decide on the deal, if any, (both of which are in the public domain and upfront) are a bigger threat to democracy than the impact of hidden money and, admittedly, intelligent, if morally questionable methods and the people behind them (none of which is open and upfront - witness funding for the DUP's London media campaign)?
Apologies for the length of the question, but, if you don't see that there is a fundamental issue about accountability in organisations seeking to influence the political direction of the state, accepting funding from opaque sources and employing targeted advertising based on personal data obtained in circumstances that give pause for thought, I really worry about your sense of perspective.
The most important accountability in a democracy is elected representatives being and remaining accountable to the people. What I currently see is our two main political parties, both of which stood on a Brexit programme last year, manoeuvring their way towards a relationship with the EU which is distinguishable from full membership only in that it makes us less influential within the EU than before-an outcome nobody wants.
There may have been different ideas of what Brexit would mean, but staying in the Customs Union, the single market, being under the ECJ and accepting freedom of movement, while paying money and having no say over the rules was NOBODY' s idea of Brexit. This is the road we are travelling down because the political majorities in this country never supported leaving and have done their best to avoid it.
You may support this, which is your right, but please do not lecture me about accountability or democracy at the same time.
You are talking about something that looks like the Norway model a lot of Brexiters used, including Farage, as something we could successfully adopt before the vote. Farage never said, well actially Norway are in the EU!!! Norway is not in the EU. You say they are in a pub quiz and try to argue you are right!!!! So what you are trying to say is YOUR opinion, not the truth. What I am saying is based on there being more than one way to leave the EU and two extreme points with positions between them. The vote was YES or NO - it wasn't Hard or Soft. It probably should have been but it wasn't!!!! If the vote was YES or NO and if the vote is NO do you wish to negotiate new treaties with the EU or just leave altogether. All voters should have been able to answer the second question, and we wouldn't be in such a mess now!!!!
Show me a Brexit campaign leaflet which said we should stay in the CU, the SM, remain under the aegis of the ECJ, allow free movement and continue to pay the EU.
I haven't got one to hand, but I would be prepared to bet there was a brexit campaign leaflet saying they wanted to regain control of the borders. Could you tell me the plan for that on the island of Ireland? It doesn't even need to be a plan that was outlined in any brexit campaign leaflet, I will trust you.
Comments
Today however maturity returns to the discussion and we finally have choices. Those who comment on events and presentations on social media are in a unique position to make a powerful contribution to our democracy.
Some stories such as Cambridge Analytica can go viral and the Alt-right are out there in no man's land being shot at. The print media has been in decline for decades, we have decent enough TV and now we have the FAANGS shaping our world.
We can complain for sure. But we can also highlight where we see truth as well as contradictions and debate these faultlines amicably in the knowledge that we are either on solid ground or events might prove us wrong. (Please forgive the mixed metaphors around solid ground)
And it appears that events and the lack of development is isolating the hard Brexit camp whilst proving that the likes of @seth plum had a valid point all along. Not just valid but critical! About Ireland and Brexiteers owning the result. In addition the Euro hasn't collapsed and immigration has fallen even with no legal changes. We are in a different place to 2016. And perceptions will surely change again over the next six to nine months.
Starmer is very bright, very articulate and he has already engineered a Labour policy shift four months ago around the Customs Union. That might prove to be extremely shrewd in the months to come? There's a lively debate around Labour and the SM but, but, but... where is the media interrogation of the government position? And where we might end up next March?
Labour maintain ambiguity because they are not the anti-referendum party. And they never were but that's another discussion.
One might hope there will come a time where truth and expert analysis starts to matter again when it comes to public discourse. And we can play our part on social media perhaps?
When more and more start to realise that the outcome next March is not the "right kind of Brexit" what then? How will Marr, Peston and Neill handle that scenario?
My contribution is to state that a Norway style option isn't a bad thing and that we can still land there without too much disruption. What I would add is that the whole process has both animated the under 30s as well as showing up the hard Brexiteers as charlatans.
Interestingly the latest polls show that a hard Brexit is unacceptable to the vast majority. It has been a journey and we now enter an extremely bumpy phase. We must acknowledge @Southbank views on millions of voters preferences even if we dispute the way forwards. Ultimately the centre is under an awful lot of pressure across Western democracies.
Time will tell if they deliver solutions. Our media and our social media interactions might help that process?
Returning to their £2 million plus homes, cosseted from reality thanks to their huge media incomes and related benefits.
They will carry on attending their exclusive restaurants, clubs, schools whilst pretending to care about anything but themselves.
If you are equating those two very different scenarios it’s I’m afraid another example of brexiteer moronic delusion.
As you admit that "every foreign leader" joined the remain campaign, perhaps they are a little more clued up than the quitters?
One question. Will you take ownership after it finally happens, or do you take ownership of everything that has happened since the referendum?
If so you are not worth taking seriously.
Some astonishing insights into those calamitous years.
Not mentioned on CL for some reason.
But nevertheless, and irrespective of a book he produced, he is still, as I said, the son of a Lord, an Oxford graduate with a very privileged background and no fear of slipping into a low income bracket who lives in a multi-million pound house in Camden.
As he said in the Evening Standard
''My neighbours have been extraordinarily welcoming, even putting me on the team for our road’s New Year’s Day football match. I love that the community is not just poshos like me, so I can buy a lavatory brush in a proper hardware store and gluten-free bread.
I joined The Groucho in 1985 when it opened. It was fun and slightly sleazy then, and is fun and slightly sleazy now. Which is obvs what I aspire to be.''
I suggest he is pretty immune to the disasters that may come from Brexit. Surely there is nothing to argue about there?
Apologies for the length of the question, but, if you don't see that there is a fundamental issue about accountability in organisations seeking to influence the political direction of the state, accepting funding from opaque sources and employing targeted advertising based on personal data obtained in circumstances that give pause for thought, I really worry about your sense of perspective.
A lot of the argument seems to be around those wanting a hard Brexit and a Soft one. A failing of the referendum and a perfectly valid area for debate given that. What is undemocratic and quite frankly ridiculous is people saying I didn't vote for this or I didn't vote for that, like the whole vote was about their reasons! Just look at the polls which are showing a clear preference for a soft Brexit amongst the British people.
Then there is a statement even more ridiculous. We voted for a Hard Brexit becaise Cameron and Osborne told us that is what we would get! Well everything they said was project fear and not true when they said it, but now it suits them, it is the basis for proving we all wanted a hard Brexit.
There are different ways of leaving the EU and anybody with a modicum of mathematical ability would easily be able to show that there is no appetite for a hard Brexit. Seeing as the question was not asked, we only know the decision was to leave, we can safely assume that pretty much all of the 48% that voted remain will prefer a soft Brexit if it is between that or a hard one. So only a small percentage of leavers need to want a soft Brexit to tip the balance and all the reliable information we have demonstrates this actually is the case.
So I am going to make the same accusation that hard Brexiters are making and turn it on them. These people are not interested in the will of the British people! The are anti-democratic.
There may have been different ideas of what Brexit would mean, but staying in the Customs Union, the single market, being under the ECJ and accepting freedom of movement, while paying money and having no say over the rules was NOBODY' s idea of Brexit. This is the road we are travelling down because the political majorities in this country never supported leaving and have done their best to avoid it.
You may support this, which is your right, but please do not lecture me about accountability or democracy at the same time.
But if you have a different view of what soft Brexit is I would be interested to hear it.
It might be possible that for the majority of people it was simply about passport colour.
My assertion is that what you say brexit was about and what I say brexit was about are equal.
The reality is that brexit has happened, and it is about brexiters operating their well oiled machine to implement the brexit they had all agreed ought to happen.
Nobody is stopping them.
Could you tell me the plan for that on the island of Ireland? It doesn't even need to be a plan that was outlined in any brexit campaign leaflet, I will trust you.