This 37% being made up from protest votes in poorer areas hurting badly from Tory austerity taking their chance to bloody the government's nose in a non binding referendum, what could go wrong? Then there were those leavers that thought we would be going to go into EFTA as they believed Farage when he'd repeatedly pointed out about Norway and Switzerland doing pretty well (no one's talking about leaving the SM) And then we have the out at any cost where dissenters are traitors and experts denigrated. Economic forecasts dismissed and the only good news is that it won't be a Mad Max-style world (no one said that it would). An open border into the UK through NI and overall decay to our rights and standards. 1.2 million older voters that predominantly voted leave and have indeed departed to be replaced by youth that predominantly voted remain. The remain campaign was crap and punished for their arrogance.
What are we really doing this for, chlorinated chicken?
According to many in the Question Time audience in Blackpool the vote was for 'freedom'. A lot of people are going to be mightily disappointed if they believe that.
Possibly the point is that the individuals leading Labour are poor, but the Tory alternative is nauseous. The attempted direction of travel by Labour is decent, but for the Tories it is a self serving mould growing across society. Of the two parties the Tories score a 3 out of 10, Labour a 5.5.
We are led to believe they are poor but Labour have had a complete shake up of leadership, some will fall by the wayside pretty quickly if elected to government. The 'natural' successors to Blair/Brown basically shot themselves in the foot with their opposition to Corbyn in the first 18 months, should he just forgive them all?
It has taken me a long time to warm to Corbyn but in the early years what pissed me off the most was the behaviour of most of the PLP which enabled the Tories to make all the running around the EU referendum. After two leadership challenges, mass resignations, votes of no confidence and Mandelson (also in Blair's cabinet!) saying that he sought to discredit Corbyn every day, was it any surprise that Corbyn's referendum campaign was lacklustre?
Possibly the point is that the individuals leading Labour are poor, but the Tory alternative is nauseous. The attempted direction of travel by Labour is decent, but for the Tories it is a self serving mould growing across society. Of the two parties the Tories score a 3 out of 10, Labour a 5.5.
We are led to believe they are poor but Labour have had a complete shake up of leadership, some will fall by the wayside pretty quickly if elected to government. The 'natural' successors to Blair/Brown basically shot themselves in the foot with their opposition to Corbyn in the first 18 months, should he just forgive them all?
It has taken me a long time to warm to Corbyn but in the early years what pissed me off the most was the behaviour of most of the PLP which enabled the Tories to make all the running around the EU referendum. After two leadership challenges, mass resignations, votes of no confidence and Mandelson (also in Blair's cabinet!) saying that he sought to discredit Corbyn every day, was it any surprise that Corbyn's referendum campaign was lacklustre?
Not often we disagree but Corbyn was awol during the referendum and I cannot forgive him for that either. Regardless of the PLP he was leader but was too petty and arrogant to share a platform with remain politicians.
Those PLP members who wanted Corbyn out did so because they could see that the man is electorally a liability. I genuinely believe that if Umunna, Thornberry or Cooper were leaders now that Labour would be 15 points or more ahead of the Tories.
The conservatives are in disarray and it’s touch and go whether Labour are ahead in the polls.
I reckon that about 80%of Tory voters will never vote anyone but Tory. The same can probably be said for Labour voters. So both parties are in reality chasing a smallish %of voters. The question is can Corbyn appeal to enough of them to win an election. I'm not sure that he can.
If Corbyn and McDonnell ever make it to nos 10 and 11 it will mean the combined IQ of the two men occupying those two addresses will be the lowest ever by a significant margin. That is one of my main concerns about the Labour Party at the moment; its entire shadow cabinet, apart from one or two exceptions, is populated by lightweights and second rate intellects.
If Corbyn and McDonnell ever make it to nos 10 and 11 it will mean the combined IQ of the two men occupying those two addresses will be the lowest ever by a significant margin. That is one of my main concerns about the Labour Party at the moment; its entire shadow cabinet, apart from one or two exceptions, is populated by lightweights and second rate intellects.
Bit harsh but I agree with your general point.
If there was a General Election tomorrow I would not know how to vote. I don't want a hard Brexit and Labour gives me the best chance of avoiding that. But, a Corbyn/McDonnell led government, I feel, will take us down a damaging road.
I, and many others I suspect, crave a credible centre left alternative. The Lib Dems should give it feels like a wasted vote.
If Corbyn and McDonnell ever make it to nos 10 and 11 it will mean the combined IQ of the two men occupying those two addresses will be the lowest ever by a significant margin. That is one of my main concerns about the Labour Party at the moment; its entire shadow cabinet, apart from one or two exceptions, is populated by lightweights and second rate intellects.
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
My point is "so what?" It shouldn't matter whether a politician went to university full stop. Oxbridge is full of self-serving privileged morons and the sooner it's demystified the better. It really is nothing to shout about. And yet you have these elitist claims that Corbyn and his cabinet are intellectual midgets with low IQs. What else can this be based on other than their lack of sparkling academic qualifications? Corbyn always comes off very level-headed and open-minded when confronting issues. He has solid principles. What can be more intellectual than those things? A big shiny degree? A polyglot prankster like Boris?
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
My point is "so what?" It shouldn't matter whether a politician went to university full stop. Oxbridge is full of self-serving privileged morons and the sooner it's demystified the better. It really is nothing to shout about. And yet you have these elitist claims that Corbyn and his cabinet are intellectual midgets with low IQs. What else can this be based on other than their lack of sparkling academic qualifications? Corbyn always comes off very level-headed and open-minded when confronting issues. He has solid principles. What can be more intellectual than those things? A big shiny degree? A polyglot prankster like Boris?
I have not got a clue about any of the educational backgrounds of any of the shadow cabinet members. My view is based solely on the speeches and interview performances I have seen and heard.
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
My point is "so what?" It shouldn't matter whether a politician went to university full stop. Oxbridge is full of self-serving privileged morons and the sooner it's demystified the better. It really is nothing to shout about. And yet you have these elitist claims that Corbyn and his cabinet are intellectual midgets with low IQs. What else can this be based on other than their lack of sparkling academic qualifications? Corbyn always comes off very level-headed and open-minded when confronting issues. He has solid principles. What can be more intellectual than those things? A big shiny degree? A polyglot prankster like Boris?
I have not got a clue about any of the educational backgrounds of any of the shadow cabinet members. My view is based solely on the speeches and interview performances I have seen and heard.
OK, so Corbyn speaks a bit rough. Hasn't been to PPE finishing school. Give me that any day
Just because the press tell you they are poor all the time, you don't have to be gullable enough to believe it. Not saying there are not some more able than others, but people make these comments because that is the fake news story which has been spread as they can't know! Look at the press telling us Corbyn is a traitor, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser. There are poor politicians in both parties, there always has been and always will be, but there are very able people too. Of the two main parties, one is far better organised and slicker than the other at this time and it isn't the Conservatives.
The Brextremists have all gone very quiet. Not quite sure which way to jump today. That LBC prat Iain Dale was well confused on Newsnight. He wasn’t sure if he was supposed to congratulate May or not.
I’d imagine there are lots of little hard Brexiter secret meetings going on behind the scenes today. Next week should be interesting.
The Brextremists have all gone very quiet. Not quite sure which way to jump today. That LBC prat Iain Dale was well confused on Newsnight. He wasn’t sure if he was supposed to congratulate May or not.
I’d imagine there are lots of little hard Brexiter secret meetings going on behind the scenes today. Next week should be interesting.
I listen to Iain Dale on drivetime sometimes, because I have LBC on a bit, but can usually only stomach 10 minutes of him. I genuinely believe he is a complete fool!
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
My point is "so what?" It shouldn't matter whether a politician went to university full stop. Oxbridge is full of self-serving privileged morons and the sooner it's demystified the better. It really is nothing to shout about. And yet you have these elitist claims that Corbyn and his cabinet are intellectual midgets with low IQs. What else can this be based on other than their lack of sparkling academic qualifications? Corbyn always comes off very level-headed and open-minded when confronting issues. He has solid principles. What can be more intellectual than those things? A big shiny degree? A polyglot prankster like Boris?
I have not got a clue about any of the educational backgrounds of any of the shadow cabinet members. My view is based solely on the speeches and interview performances I have seen and heard.
OK, so Corbyn speaks a bit rough. Hasn't been to PPE finishing school. Give me that any day
I don't judge a person's ability or intelligence by their accent. However, I am entitled to make a valid personal judgement based on their ability to verbalise and articulate complex arguments fluently and concisely. Watching Corbyn at the despatch box at PMQs is embarrassing.
Frazer somebody, or somebody on Any Questions said that with nobody wants a hard border in Ireland so it can't be beyond the wit of man to find a solution. Oh yes it is. Unless the solution is a customs union or a border in the Irish sea. How long have the brexit morons had to come up with something? What are they saying, 'be with you in a moment'?
Just because the press tell you they are poor all the time, you don't have to be gullable enough to believe it. Not saying there are not some more able than others, but people make these comments because that is the fake news story which has been spread as they can't know! Look at the press telling us Corbyn is a traitor, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser. There are poor politicians in both parties, there always has been and always will be, but there are very able people too. Of the two main parties, one is far better organised and slicker than the other at this time and it isn't the Conservatives.
Am I not allowed to make a judgement based solely on what I hear and see with my own eyes and ears?
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
My point is "so what?" It shouldn't matter whether a politician went to university full stop. Oxbridge is full of self-serving privileged morons and the sooner it's demystified the better. It really is nothing to shout about. And yet you have these elitist claims that Corbyn and his cabinet are intellectual midgets with low IQs. What else can this be based on other than their lack of sparkling academic qualifications? Corbyn always comes off very level-headed and open-minded when confronting issues. He has solid principles. What can be more intellectual than those things? A big shiny degree? A polyglot prankster like Boris?
I have not got a clue about any of the educational backgrounds of any of the shadow cabinet members. My view is based solely on the speeches and interview performances I have seen and heard.
OK, so Corbyn speaks a bit rough. Hasn't been to PPE finishing school. Give me that any day
I don't judge a person's ability or intelligence by their accent. However, I am entitled to make a valid personal judgement based on their ability to verbalise and articulate complex arguments fluently and concisely. Watching Corbyn at the despatch box at PMQs is embarrassing.
He has a different style - certainly not embarrassing!
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
My point is "so what?" It shouldn't matter whether a politician went to university full stop. Oxbridge is full of self-serving privileged morons and the sooner it's demystified the better. It really is nothing to shout about. And yet you have these elitist claims that Corbyn and his cabinet are intellectual midgets with low IQs. What else can this be based on other than their lack of sparkling academic qualifications? Corbyn always comes off very level-headed and open-minded when confronting issues. He has solid principles. What can be more intellectual than those things? A big shiny degree? A polyglot prankster like Boris?
It was pointed out to me this week that there are more former presidents of the Oxford Union than there are people from an minority in the Tory cabinet. And people wonder why this government does absolutely nothing for those who don't make up the top 1% richest people.
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
My point is "so what?" It shouldn't matter whether a politician went to university full stop. Oxbridge is full of self-serving privileged morons and the sooner it's demystified the better. It really is nothing to shout about. And yet you have these elitist claims that Corbyn and his cabinet are intellectual midgets with low IQs. What else can this be based on other than their lack of sparkling academic qualifications? Corbyn always comes off very level-headed and open-minded when confronting issues. He has solid principles. What can be more intellectual than those things? A big shiny degree? A polyglot prankster like Boris?
I have not got a clue about any of the educational backgrounds of any of the shadow cabinet members. My view is based solely on the speeches and interview performances I have seen and heard.
OK, so Corbyn speaks a bit rough. Hasn't been to PPE finishing school. Give me that any day
I don't judge a person's ability or intelligence by their accent. However, I am entitled to make a valid personal judgement based on their ability to verbalise and articulate complex arguments fluently and concisely. Watching Corbyn at the despatch box at PMQs is embarrassing.
He is good at PMQ's, and on the campaign stump, it is the more forensic interviews which seem to be his weakness.
Like the brainboxes of the last eight years have done well by this country. You know an Oxbridge degree doesn't automatically confer wisdom or morality? I am living proof of that
Not sure having a degree was part of the argument, although you have shoe-horned letting the forum know you have an Oxbridge degree. Clumsy and classless.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
My point is "so what?" It shouldn't matter whether a politician went to university full stop. Oxbridge is full of self-serving privileged morons and the sooner it's demystified the better. It really is nothing to shout about. And yet you have these elitist claims that Corbyn and his cabinet are intellectual midgets with low IQs. What else can this be based on other than their lack of sparkling academic qualifications? Corbyn always comes off very level-headed and open-minded when confronting issues. He has solid principles. What can be more intellectual than those things? A big shiny degree? A polyglot prankster like Boris?
I have not got a clue about any of the educational backgrounds of any of the shadow cabinet members. My view is based solely on the speeches and interview performances I have seen and heard.
OK, so Corbyn speaks a bit rough. Hasn't been to PPE finishing school. Give me that any day
I don't judge a person's ability or intelligence by their accent. However, I am entitled to make a valid personal judgement based on their ability to verbalise and articulate complex arguments fluently and concisely. Watching Corbyn at the despatch box at PMQs is embarrassing.
He has a different style - certainly not embarrassing!
It's certainly a very poor style, he goes around the houses and everyone has switched off by the time he gets to his point. Every week this government gifts an open goal yet Corbyn just fails to hammer them home
@Leuth I am afraid I agree entirely with @ShootersHillGuru, (right down to voting for Clive Efford as a fine constituency MP), and with @Red_in_SE8. I will ask again, have you ever heard Richard Burgon speak? Did you even know he exists? (They may have decided that the less voters do, the better.) It's nothing to do with elitist qualifications. As I understand it Thornberry has a very modest, even difficult background, but she is the one heavyweight on the Commons floor (I think she would do herself a power of good health-wise to be a bit less heavyweight, but anyway)
More to the point how is that real solid -and female - politicians such as Cooper and the Eagle twins are not in that Cabinet? Or Hilary Benn? Well I can think of one reason, relevant to this thread. They don't think the EU is some "capitalist plot".
My above point re experience of the Labour team, not to mention Robin Cook. Long before anyone had heard of Blair, Robin Cook was the most fearsome speaker Labour has had in modern times. Did you ever hear him slaughter Heseltine over the Westland affair? It was a live speech so good I stopped my car to listen. Only he could manage to pack so much meaning into something so simple as the way he addressed Heseltine: "The President of the Board of Trade". Every time he uttered the phrase there was a new edge of sarcasm, contempt, and menace. I felt like someone was striking blows for me, even though at the time Thatcher seemed invincible.
That is the kind of politician we need now at this time, to really interrogate Brexit. None of that lot would be fit to tie his shoelaces.
Just because the press tell you they are poor all the time, you don't have to be gullable enough to believe it. Not saying there are not some more able than others, but people make these comments because that is the fake news story which has been spread as they can't know! Look at the press telling us Corbyn is a traitor, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser. There are poor politicians in both parties, there always has been and always will be, but there are very able people too. Of the two main parties, one is far better organised and slicker than the other at this time and it isn't the Conservatives.
My view on the Shadow Cabinet's lack of ability is based on what I hear from them directly, not what the media reports. It is a convenient argument from Corbyn supporters that his opponents are only influenced by media bias.
I do, however, think Corbyn's team will get in next time (whenever that is) and it worries me greatly (and I am not a Tory supporter).
For those that wonder what's all this got to do with Brexit? Labour has explicitly (almost!) come out as the 'soft Brexit' party so in considering Labour's Brexit proposition you have to consider their electability.
Much coverage of the Italian election in the UK? Big news here and I am following it with interest. From what I can see there isn't really an anti-EU element from any of the leading parties but immigration is certainly on the agenda and a right wing coalition looks likely.
People occasionally post in here predicting the demise of the EU without really giving any detail of how this might come about, and it seems that Italy is much like Spain in that it has many problems and people aren't happy but the idea of blaming this all on the EU doesn't really have much traction for politicians. Be interesting to see what happens in the Italian elections and in people's thoughts about it here, but again it is hardly going to signal the imminent collapse of the EU as was predicted also with the recent French and Dutch elections.
What is more worrisome, Labour getting in or more Tory rule? I know what I think. However to an extent I share the attitude of @PragueAddick that I want to weigh up my local candidates, and my MP Heidi Alexander was the best of them. The next election will have new boundaries, and suddenly where I live will be at the very edge of a Greenwich/Lewisham mash up, and local activists may well have offed Alexander by then. I will however go to any hustings and be as pugnacious as possible.
Comments
It has taken me a long time to warm to Corbyn but in the early years what pissed me off the most was the behaviour of most of the PLP which enabled the Tories to make all the running around the EU referendum. After two leadership challenges, mass resignations, votes of no confidence and Mandelson (also in Blair's cabinet!) saying that he sought to discredit Corbyn every day, was it any surprise that Corbyn's referendum campaign was lacklustre?
Those PLP members who wanted Corbyn out did so because they could see that the man is electorally a liability. I genuinely believe that if Umunna, Thornberry or Cooper were leaders now that Labour would be 15 points or more ahead of the Tories.
The conservatives are in disarray and it’s touch and go whether Labour are ahead in the polls.
The same can probably be said for Labour voters.
So both parties are in reality chasing a smallish %of voters.
The question is can Corbyn appeal to enough of them to win an election.
I'm not sure that he can.
If there was a General Election tomorrow I would not know how to vote. I don't want a hard Brexit and Labour gives me the best chance of avoiding that. But, a Corbyn/McDonnell led government, I feel, will take us down a damaging road.
I, and many others I suspect, crave a credible centre left alternative. The Lib Dems should give it feels like a wasted vote.
The point being made was that Shadow Cabinet lacks ability which is an entirely valid debate.
The Brextremists have all gone very quiet. Not quite sure which way to jump today. That LBC prat Iain Dale was well confused on Newsnight. He wasn’t sure if he was supposed to congratulate May or not.
I’d imagine there are lots of little hard Brexiter secret meetings going on behind the scenes today. Next week should be interesting.
Oh yes it is.
Unless the solution is a customs union or a border in the Irish sea.
How long have the brexit morons had to come up with something?
What are they saying, 'be with you in a moment'?
I am afraid I agree entirely with @ShootersHillGuru, (right down to voting for Clive Efford as a fine constituency MP), and with @Red_in_SE8. I will ask again, have you ever heard Richard Burgon speak? Did you even know he exists? (They may have decided that the less voters do, the better.)
It's nothing to do with elitist qualifications. As I understand it Thornberry has a very modest, even difficult background, but she is the one heavyweight on the Commons floor (I think she would do herself a power of good health-wise to be a bit less heavyweight, but anyway)
More to the point how is that real solid -and female - politicians such as Cooper and the Eagle twins are not in that Cabinet? Or Hilary Benn? Well I can think of one reason, relevant to this thread. They don't think the EU is some "capitalist plot".
@Cordoban Addick
My above point re experience of the Labour team, not to mention Robin Cook. Long before anyone had heard of Blair, Robin Cook was the most fearsome speaker Labour has had in modern times. Did you ever hear him slaughter Heseltine over the Westland affair? It was a live speech so good I stopped my car to listen. Only he could manage to pack so much meaning into something so simple as the way he addressed Heseltine: "The President of the Board of Trade". Every time he uttered the phrase there was a new edge of sarcasm, contempt, and menace. I felt like someone was striking blows for me, even though at the time Thatcher seemed invincible.
That is the kind of politician we need now at this time, to really interrogate Brexit. None of that lot would be fit to tie his shoelaces.
I do, however, think Corbyn's team will get in next time (whenever that is) and it worries me greatly (and I am not a Tory supporter).
For those that wonder what's all this got to do with Brexit? Labour has explicitly (almost!) come out as the 'soft Brexit' party so in considering Labour's Brexit proposition you have to consider their electability.
People occasionally post in here predicting the demise of the EU without really giving any detail of how this might come about, and it seems that Italy is much like Spain in that it has many problems and people aren't happy but the idea of blaming this all on the EU doesn't really have much traction for politicians. Be interesting to see what happens in the Italian elections and in people's thoughts about it here, but again it is hardly going to signal the imminent collapse of the EU as was predicted also with the recent French and Dutch elections.
However to an extent I share the attitude of @PragueAddick that I want to weigh up my local candidates, and my MP Heidi Alexander was the best of them.
The next election will have new boundaries, and suddenly where I live will be at the very edge of a Greenwich/Lewisham mash up, and local activists may well have offed Alexander by then. I will however go to any hustings and be as pugnacious as possible.