The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why. And the same for Remainers.
I doubt you will get anyone replying, saying they have changed, as the only regular contributors are here because they feel strongly about the issue ( plus the odd troll, of course). The opinion polls have tracked a shift to a modest Remain majority and at some stage one of the polling companies will do some qualitative research to answer the "why" question.
Anyway, Theresa May is going to bring the country together in her speech, so it's all going to be ok...
You mention opinion polls..has anyone ever been asked or know anyone who has, in any poll, as i never have or know anyone who has.
I think that some people go out their way to go on polling sites and participate, where as the silent majority don't and I have personally never heard of anyone being randomly asked in the street or online to get involved.
The credible poll companies don’t allow people to participate just because they want to. You are selected on strict criteria.
The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why. And the same for Remainers.
I doubt you will get anyone replying, saying they have changed, as the only regular contributors are here because they feel strongly about the issue ( plus the odd troll, of course). The opinion polls have tracked a shift to a modest Remain majority and at some stage one of the polling companies will do some qualitative research to answer the "why" question.
Anyway, Theresa May is going to bring the country together in her speech, so it's all going to be ok...
You mention opinion polls..has anyone ever been asked or know anyone who has, in any poll, as i never have or know anyone who has.
I think that some people go out their way to go on polling sites and participate, where as the silent majority don't and I have personally never heard of anyone being randomly asked in the street or online to get involved.
The credible poll companies don’t allow people to participate just because they want to. You are selected on strict criteria.
God knows where they select from then
A representative cross section of society. Anything other than would be meaningless.
What would be the point of asking only people who volunteered to take part ? You could certainly have a pool of willing participants but then invite from that pool based on age, sex, etc. etc. To make up a representative cross section of society.
Teresa May is without doubt the least charismatic and competent speaker this country has possibly ever had as Prime Minister. Her delivery, regardless of content is staccato and stumbling and lacks warmth or sincerity. This speech was really important and vital for audiences both at home and within the European Union and it was as boring as fuck. I couldn’t see anything meaningful to negotiations in it apart from a list of wants that in many cases have already been excluded. Seems to me she is so constrained by the warring factions within her own party that she sought to appease everyone and ended up saying very little of worth.
Pathetic and yet the Tories are so desperate to cling onto power they havn’t the balls to upset the apple cart and do the right thing by the country. Any remaining doubt that we are completely fucked has been removed.
We were on a 28 seater coach, and voted to get off and get in our own car. Unfortunately some were so desperate to get off the coach that they didn't care that the car isn't roadworthy and is driven by an incompetent that has given the sat-nav such conflicting instructions we've been left endlessly circling the same round about whilst the driver tells us how great it'll be when we eventually pick a direction to go in.
We were on a 28 seater coach, and voted to get off and get in our own car. Unfortunately some were so desperate to get off the coach that they didn't care that the car isn't roadworthy and is driven by an incompetent that has given the sat-nav such conflicting instructions we've been left endlessly circling the same round about whilst the driver tells us how great it'll be when we eventually pick a direction to go in.
And a trailer full of steel for Donald. Oh wait a minute....
Teresa May is without doubt the least charismatic and competent speaker this country has possibly ever had as Prime Minister. Her delivery, regardless of content is staccato and stumbling and lacks warmth or sincerity. This speech was really important and vital for audiences both at home and within the European Union and it was as boring as fuck. I couldn’t see anything meaningful to negotiations in it apart from a list of wants that in many cases have already been excluded. Seems to me she is so constrained by the warring factions within her own party that she sought to appease everyone and ended up saying very little of worth.
Pathetic and yet the Tories are so desperate to cling onto power they havn’t the balls to upset the apple cart and do the right thing by the country. Any remaining doubt that we are completely fucked has been removed.
I watched it and recorded it. If ever I need help sleeping I'll just press play and should be off within 2 mins.
If this speech clarified the way forward it was completely lost on me.
The problem is Theresa has allowed herself zero flexibility, and that's what this whole process required. She could have entered the talks with a broad mind and an open agenda that would have allowed her to pursue several meaningful avenues to make the best of a bad situation.
Instead she, for no reason whatsoever, laid down several red lines (some of which were the direct opposite of what was promised during the referendum campaign) aimed at securing an extremely damaging hard Brexit and has now painted herself into a corner where any deviation or compromise would be seen as a failure.
There really are only two options to avoid disaster for the UK.
Sack May and get someone actually willing and able to get the job done in
Or cancel Brexit
Anything else simply isn't good enough for this country.
The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why. And the same for Remainers.
I doubt you will get anyone replying, saying they have changed, as the only regular contributors are here because they feel strongly about the issue ( plus the odd troll, of course). The opinion polls have tracked a shift to a modest Remain majority and at some stage one of the polling companies will do some qualitative research to answer the "why" question.
Anyway, Theresa May is going to bring the country together in her speech, so it's all going to be ok...
You mention opinion polls..has anyone ever been asked or know anyone who has, in any poll, as i never have or know anyone who has.
I think that some people go out their way to go on polling sites and participate, where as the silent majority don't and I have personally never heard of anyone being randomly asked in the street or online to get involved.
The credible poll companies don’t allow people to participate just because they want to. You are selected on strict criteria.
God knows where they select from then
A representative cross section of society. Anything other than would be meaningless.
What would be the point of asking only people who volunteered to take part ? You could certainly have a pool of willing participants but then invite from that pool based on age, sex, etc. etc. To make up a representative cross section of society.
I think to be fair to Monsieur @i_b_b_o_r_g , he is referring to internet based polls, which are the cheap and nasty end of the market, and ought to be excluded from any serious political usage, including being fed into poll of polls numbers.
The problem is Theresa has allowed herself zero flexibility, and that's what this whole process required. She could have entered the talks with a broad mind and an open agenda that would have allowed her to pursue several meaningful avenues to make the best of a bad situation.
Instead she, for no reason whatsoever, laid down several red lines (some of which were the direct opposite of what was promised during the referendum campaign) aimed at securing an extremely damaging hard Brexit and has now painted herself into a corner where any deviation or compromise would be seen as a failure.
There really are only two options to avoid disaster for the UK.
Sack May and get someone actually willing and able to get the job done in
Or cancel Brexit
Anything else simply isn't good enough for this country.
Trouble is, the Tory party membership nominates the new leader. Sack May, get the Cartoon Aristocrat.
The problem is Theresa has allowed herself zero flexibility, and that's what this whole process required. She could have entered the talks with a broad mind and an open agenda that would have allowed her to pursue several meaningful avenues to make the best of a bad situation.
Instead she, for no reason whatsoever, laid down several red lines (some of which were the direct opposite of what was promised during the referendum campaign) aimed at securing an extremely damaging hard Brexit and has now painted herself into a corner where any deviation or compromise would be seen as a failure.
There really are only two options to avoid disaster for the UK.
Sack May and get someone actually willing and able to get the job done in
Or cancel Brexit
Anything else simply isn't good enough for this country.
No prospect of it happening though is there Fiiish. Instead we have no leadership or sense of reality from the government.
Our only real hope now is for those Tory rebels to force the issue.
Watching May and other leading Tories is like being in a real life episode of the Thick of It, except for that feeling someone is jabbing an icepick into my temple.
Teresa May is without doubt the least charismatic and competent speaker this country has possibly ever had as Prime Minister. Her delivery, regardless of content is staccato and stumbling and lacks warmth or sincerity. This speech was really important and vital for audiences both at home and within the European Union and it was as boring as fuck. I couldn’t see anything meaningful to negotiations in it apart from a list of wants that in many cases have already been excluded. Seems to me she is so constrained by the warring factions within her own party that she sought to appease everyone and ended up saying very little of worth.
Pathetic and yet the Tories are so desperate to cling onto power they havn’t the balls to upset the apple cart and do the right thing by the country. Any remaining doubt that we are completely fucked has been removed.
I didn't watch the speech as my time was more productively spent elsewhere. Absolutely nothing has changed in the landscape since Monday when Labour announced their policy on a/the Customs Union. May didn't say anything she has said before and she can't because the two options of Canada and Norway are mutually exclusive so two comments to make: 1) Is she trying to provoke a response from M.Barnier or Leo Varadkar? Or perhaps she wants six Sinn Fein MPs to turn up at Westminster to take the heat off her and provoke a response?! 2) She and her cabinet have obviously run out of road as we fast approach the point where we have just one year left in the EU. One can take the view that it is all going to go horribly wrong. Or one can take the view that Soros, Soubry and Best for Britain lobbying plus evolving polls will take us to a new place. This where Tory remainers carry out their emergency plan which is to walk away from the Tory government in the national interest in pursuance of a Norway + CU deal.
Commentators see this and perhaps the evolving polls will register a shift on certain questions? And the clock ticking will have an effect on FDI, the exchange rate and business decisions. No deal means that financial services will relocate European operations into the EU27. The prospects of no deal has a downward effect on net immigration from the EU and the tax take.
So yes, the Tories are clinging to power and May is up to her neck in quicksand. But nobody is throwing her a means of escape. Nothing has changed! Except business consider Corbyn and McDonnell as the leadership of a party which is listening and that is fast becoming the view in the FT - we live in interesting times!
The problem is Theresa has allowed herself zero flexibility, and that's what this whole process required. She could have entered the talks with a broad mind and an open agenda that would have allowed her to pursue several meaningful avenues to make the best of a bad situation.
Instead she, for no reason whatsoever, laid down several red lines (some of which were the direct opposite of what was promised during the referendum campaign) aimed at securing an extremely damaging hard Brexit and has now painted herself into a corner where any deviation or compromise would be seen as a failure.
There really are only two options to avoid disaster for the UK.
Sack May and get someone actually willing and able to get the job done in
Or cancel Brexit
Anything else simply isn't good enough for this country.
The problem is Theresa has allowed herself zero flexibility, and that's what this whole process required. She could have entered the talks with a broad mind and an open agenda that would have allowed her to pursue several meaningful avenues to make the best of a bad situation.
Instead she, for no reason whatsoever, laid down several red lines (some of which were the direct opposite of what was promised during the referendum campaign) aimed at securing an extremely damaging hard Brexit and has now painted herself into a corner where any deviation or compromise would be seen as a failure.
There really are only two options to avoid disaster for the UK.
Sack May and get someone actually willing and able to get the job done in
Or cancel Brexit
Anything else simply isn't good enough for this country.
No prospect of it happening though is there Fiiish. Instead we have no leadership or sense of reality from the government.
Our only real hope now is for those Tory rebels to force the issue.
You see it, we all see it, the political commentators see it. The weekend papers and Sunday morning TV programmes will be full of it. The power of our democracy combined with the new age of social media may bring some very sudden shifts in the weeks to come? What is trending on twitter and message boards?
The problem is Theresa has allowed herself zero flexibility, and that's what this whole process required. She could have entered the talks with a broad mind and an open agenda that would have allowed her to pursue several meaningful avenues to make the best of a bad situation.
Instead she, for no reason whatsoever, laid down several red lines (some of which were the direct opposite of what was promised during the referendum campaign) aimed at securing an extremely damaging hard Brexit and has now painted herself into a corner where any deviation or compromise would be seen as a failure.
There really are only two options to avoid disaster for the UK.
Sack May and get someone actually willing and able to get the job done in
Or cancel Brexit
Anything else simply isn't good enough for this country.
The problem is Theresa has allowed herself zero flexibility, and that's what this whole process required. She could have entered the talks with a broad mind and an open agenda that would have allowed her to pursue several meaningful avenues to make the best of a bad situation.
Instead she, for no reason whatsoever, laid down several red lines (some of which were the direct opposite of what was promised during the referendum campaign) aimed at securing an extremely damaging hard Brexit and has now painted herself into a corner where any deviation or compromise would be seen as a failure.
There really are only two options to avoid disaster for the UK.
Sack May and get someone actually willing and able to get the job done in
Or cancel Brexit
Anything else simply isn't good enough for this country.
No prospect of it happening though is there Fiiish. Instead we have no leadership or sense of reality from the government.
Our only real hope now is for those Tory rebels to force the issue.
You see it, we all see it, the political commentators see it. The weekend papers and Sunday morning TV programmes will be full of it. The power of our democracy combined with the new age of social media may bring some very sudden shifts in the weeks to come? What is trending on twitter and message boards?
Theresa May is a terrible speaker. She has no panache, no style and no confidence. She cannot drive passion, engender enthusiasm or stir the loins of her most ardent followers. She has less gravitas than David Cameron, less charm than Gordon Brown, less empathy than Tony Blair and less colour than John Major. In short, she is a terrible speaker.
But that doesn't actually matter. You don't pick Alastair Cook for his bowling or Harry Kane for his goalkeeping. She's terrible at speaking, but she has some competence in spelling out the big picture. She can describe, quite fluently, the "sunny uplands" towards which most Brexiters want to be led.
So, for her her to fail - completely - yet again, to explain what Brexit will look like, why it might work and why the harm it will do might be worthwhile is very, very disappointing.
She can't speak in public. And, despite her many, many years of coaching, she, frankly, never will be able to. That should be no surprise to anyone. But for her to deliver her fourth, set-piece Brexit speech without properly explaining the big picture in terms that are clear and succinct is a terrible abrogation of her duty.
It's time for this weak and stable prime minister to do the right thing and step down. Sadly, we all know that doing the right thing is far beyond her.
The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why. And the same for Remainers.
I doubt you will get anyone replying, saying they have changed, as the only regular contributors are here because they feel strongly about the issue ( plus the odd troll, of course). The opinion polls have tracked a shift to a modest Remain majority and at some stage one of the polling companies will do some qualitative research to answer the "why" question.
Anyway, Theresa May is going to bring the country together in her speech, so it's all going to be ok...
You mention opinion polls..has anyone ever been asked or know anyone who has, in any poll, as i never have or know anyone who has.
I think that some people go out their way to go on polling sites and participate, where as the silent majority don't and I have personally never heard of anyone being randomly asked in the street or online to get involved.
The credible poll companies don’t allow people to participate just because they want to. You are selected on strict criteria.
The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why. And the same for Remainers.
I doubt you will get anyone replying, saying they have changed, as the only regular contributors are here because they feel strongly about the issue ( plus the odd troll, of course). The opinion polls have tracked a shift to a modest Remain majority and at some stage one of the polling companies will do some qualitative research to answer the "why" question.
Anyway, Theresa May is going to bring the country together in her speech, so it's all going to be ok...
You mention opinion polls..has anyone ever been asked or know anyone who has, in any poll, as i never have or know anyone who has.
I think that some people go out their way to go on polling sites and participate, where as the silent majority don't and I have personally never heard of anyone being randomly asked in the street or online to get involved.
The credible poll companies don’t allow people to participate just because they want to. You are selected on strict criteria.
God knows where they select from then
My best guess would be, not in France
That's highly likely to be true.
Now, Grove Park - you can't move without tripping over pollsters.
The lack of proper planning for Brexit is very worrying, and I imagine people who voted Leave are just as disturbed about the lack of a clear objective. The amount of money spent on this already must be huge.
Any predictions on what the situation of the UK will be in five years or so? In or out of the EU and with what agreement? Still a United Kingdom with Scotland and Northern Ireland? Which political party in power with who leading? Things seem far more unpredictable than I ever remember and it seems impossible to really think about what the future of the UK could be like.
The lack of proper planning for Brexit is very worrying, and I imagine people who voted Leave are just as disturbed about the lack of a clear objective. The amount of money spent on this already must be huge.
Any predictions on what the situation of the UK will be in five years or so? In or out of the EU and with what agreement? Still a United Kingdom with Scotland and Northern Ireland? Which political party in power with who leading? Things seem far more unpredictable than I ever remember and it seems impossible to really think about what the future of the UK could be like.
For all that they've achieved, they might as well have said that Brexit would become a reality as from 24th June 2016. That's where it seems to be heading, full on shit storm with nothing in place.
No doubt saying how wonderful Saint Theresa's speech was and how she brought so much clarity.
Gove is a charmless, self-serving c*nt.
Get in there and ask your questions then. I am sure the nation will be thrilled by them.
Why don't you ask the questions oh great Yoda? The nation can then use the opportunity to make a cup of tea.
Nothing to ask him... Your the one with nothing to say and keeps talking shite... Now is your opportunity to get the answers you seek... Or you got no balls for it.
Comments
What would be the point of asking only people who volunteered to take part ? You could certainly have a pool of willing participants but then invite from that pool based on age, sex, etc. etc. To make up a representative cross section of society.
Pathetic and yet the Tories are so desperate to cling onto power they havn’t the balls to upset the apple cart and do the right thing by the country. Any remaining doubt that we are completely fucked has been removed.
If this speech clarified the way forward it was completely lost on me.
Instead she, for no reason whatsoever, laid down several red lines (some of which were the direct opposite of what was promised during the referendum campaign) aimed at securing an extremely damaging hard Brexit and has now painted herself into a corner where any deviation or compromise would be seen as a failure.
There really are only two options to avoid disaster for the UK.
Sack May and get someone actually willing and able to get the job done in
Or cancel Brexit
Anything else simply isn't good enough for this country.
Our only real hope now is for those Tory rebels to force the issue.
1) Is she trying to provoke a response from M.Barnier or Leo Varadkar? Or perhaps she wants six Sinn Fein MPs to turn up at Westminster to take the heat off her and provoke a response?!
2) She and her cabinet have obviously run out of road as we fast approach the point where we have just one year left in the EU. One can take the view that it is all going to go horribly wrong. Or one can take the view that Soros, Soubry and Best for Britain lobbying plus evolving polls will take us to a new place. This where Tory remainers carry out their emergency plan which is to walk away from the Tory government in the national interest in pursuance of a Norway + CU deal.
Commentators see this and perhaps the evolving polls will register a shift on certain questions? And the clock ticking will have an effect on FDI, the exchange rate and business decisions. No deal means that financial services will relocate European operations into the EU27. The prospects of no deal has a downward effect on net immigration from the EU and the tax take.
So yes, the Tories are clinging to power and May is up to her neck in quicksand. But nobody is throwing her a means of escape. Nothing has changed! Except business consider Corbyn and McDonnell as the leadership of a party which is listening and that is fast becoming the view in the FT - we live in interesting times!
Someone has our back
A spokesperson for 10 Downing Street said the UK is "engaging" with the US on what Mr Trump's tariff announcement means in practice.
"We are particularly concerned by any measures which would impact the UK steel and aluminium industries," the spokesperson said.
But that doesn't actually matter. You don't pick Alastair Cook for his bowling or Harry Kane for his goalkeeping. She's terrible at speaking, but she has some competence in spelling out the big picture. She can describe, quite fluently, the "sunny uplands" towards which most Brexiters want to be led.
So, for her her to fail - completely - yet again, to explain what Brexit will look like, why it might work and why the harm it will do might be worthwhile is very, very disappointing.
She can't speak in public. And, despite her many, many years of coaching, she, frankly, never will be able to. That should be no surprise to anyone. But for her to deliver her fourth, set-piece Brexit speech without properly explaining the big picture in terms that are clear and succinct is a terrible abrogation of her duty.
It's time for this weak and stable prime minister to do the right thing and step down. Sadly, we all know that doing the right thing is far beyond her.
Now, Grove Park - you can't move without tripping over pollsters.
Gove is a charmless, self-serving c*nt.
Any predictions on what the situation of the UK will be in five years or so? In or out of the EU and with what agreement? Still a United Kingdom with Scotland and Northern Ireland? Which political party in power with who leading? Things seem far more unpredictable than I ever remember and it seems impossible to really think about what the future of the UK could be like.