The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
Agree. John Major said that Labour really ought to be 10-15 points ahead in the polls, and that they are not, he put down to Corbyn.
The bit I found odd, was the bit in her speech about not getting it all our own way. Why the hell, almost 2 years after the vote would we need to still be highlighting this. For her to say it, seems to imply we’ve genuinely got some people in her party and this country that believe this was still to be the case
All a bit a weird for me
In fairness I haven't seen the speech but in my observation and experience it's very, very clear that there's a lot of people who still don't get what we are about to undertake and just how difficult, (let alone damaging) it will be.
Dip into any Brexit discussion in your local paper and they'll be there urging us to just get on with it and leave! There was a rude, shouty bloke on Question Time a week or two back completely downplaying the complexity of the process on the basis we should "Just Leave! It ain't brain surgery is it???".
I've lost count of the amount of times on here I've tried to discuss what we are going to do about our the 1000's of pieces of consumer, food safety, environmental, employment, etc. laws but there's very little interest. There might be interest when individual ministers start rolling back our rights to a refund for faulty goods, as one small example, but it'll be too late by then.
Leaving everything is actually very simple. So is remaining in the CU and SM but leaving the EU for there will be very little change to the lived experience for individuals and corporations.
Leaving everything implies massive deregulation and that has no support. Ask Jo Public about the banks, consumer rights etc. and they want the same. And that is why Labour has sustained 40% + poll ratings for nine months now. For they stand for the consumer, the NHS, improved schools, more house building etc.
The rude shouty person's vote is worth the same as you and the rest of us. Should we have a successful soft Brexit then we will see a lot of rude shouty people supporting Farage, talking about betrayal etc. In response to that Labour are building the machinery and the message to put together a simple case for their manifesto, including consumer rights and against deregulation.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
That's the thing, the leadership of the Tories (Cameron et al) didn't want to leave and had a referendum to shut up the Eurosceptic element and the ukippers, and assumed they'd spank the referendum... Labour were by far majority remain except for their actual working class heartlands and the leader himself. Everyone is afraid to go against the referendum, as it is clearly political suicide, and also don't really want a hard brexit as it's economic suicide (at least in the short term), so we are getting some bollocks fudge.
To imagine there is not a significant and powerful element of the Tory party that is not rabid Brexit is living in cloud cuckoo land and that’s in the cabinet, party as a whole as well as the Parliamentary party.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
Also from Newsnight, it sounded to me that Redwood pretty much represented your views @Southbank ?
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
Also from Newsnight, it sounded to me that Redwood pretty much represented your views @Southbank ?
I hope not. My TV nearly didn't make it through unscathed.
Man oozes hate and bile in a middle class wrapper.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
Also from Newsnight, it sounded to me that Redwood pretty much represented your views @Southbank ?
I hope not. My TV nearly didn't make it through unscathed.
Man oozes hate and bile in a middle class wrapper.
Never watch it these days. It's gone so down market since paxman left.
Redwood used to be promoted as someone with a brain the size of a planet. It could even be two planets, the trouble is one is made of inert gases, the other one is made of dust.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
Also from Newsnight, it sounded to me that Redwood pretty much represented your views @Southbank ?
I hope not. My TV nearly didn't make it through unscathed.
Man oozes hate and bile in a middle class wrapper.
Never watch it these days. It's gone so down market since paxman left.
Agree, although I have heard that it is not quite as connected to him as the Great Man himelf likes to think. It is another example of a programme that got several bruisings for running stuff the govt. of the day didn't like.
I heard John Tusa on the radio the other day. He was Newsnight's original anchor, and such a class act. And, it turns out, of Czech family heritage. Newsnight's broadcasts of the fall of Communism changed my life. I would leave work colleagues in the pub, to rush home in time to catch it.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
Also from Newsnight, it sounded to me that Redwood pretty much represented your views @Southbank ?
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
Also from Newsnight, it sounded to me that Redwood pretty much represented your views @Southbank ?
Only on Brexit
You agree with Redwood, JRM, Boris, Farage, the Daily Mail, the Sun, the Express, UKIP, Breitbart, Britain First, the EDL etc. on Brexit but the problem is none of the above have a single good reason to support Brexit (beyond personal profit at the expense of the British people).
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
Also from Newsnight, it sounded to me that Redwood pretty much represented your views @Southbank ?
Only on Brexit
You agree with Redwood, JRM, Boris, Farage, the Daily Mail, the Sun, the Express, UKIP, Breitbart, Britain First, the EDL etc. on Brexit but the problem is none of the above have a single good reason to support Brexit (beyond personal profit at the expense of the British people).
I think I would avoid calling these people my bedfellows on principal and would be very concerned if I found myself in their camp on any issue whatsoever.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Cannot disagree. Corbyn once again has been found wanting. I can't see his leadership skills as being any better than May's, even if, of the two, I prefer his politics.
He actually surprised me in some respects but on the whole Brexit thing, which is THE most important thing, he's been very poor. Labour should be slaughtering the Tories in the polls with their mishandling and duplicity over Brexit. They only start get their point across properly when Kier Starmer's leading on it.
Labour's position is as incoherent as the Tories. The problem for both is that they are Remain parties trying not to leave without admitting it.
Well neither are doing much of a job in trying to remain.
Irish MEP just summed it up on Newsnight as 'UK wants to be in the EU but not call it the EU'. Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
Also from Newsnight, it sounded to me that Redwood pretty much represented your views @Southbank ?
I hope not. My TV nearly didn't make it through unscathed.
Man oozes hate and bile in a middle class wrapper.
Never watch it these days. It's gone so down market since paxman left.
Agree, although I have heard that it is not quite as connected to him as the Great Man himelf likes to think. It is another example of a programme that got several bruisings for running stuff the govt. of the day didn't like.
I heard John Tusa on the radio the other day. He was Newsnight's original anchor, and such a class act. And, it turns out, of Czech family heritage. Newsnight's broadcasts of the fall of Communism changed my life. I would leave work colleagues in the pub, to rush home in time to catch it.
Ratings pressure, I guess.
It's still as good as you are going to get these days. Nothing on the other channels to compare except C4 News. It doesn't seem to be as well funded in terms of exclusives but I like the mix of presenters. Paxman was a bit of a one trick pony.
The post Theresa May speech interview with Corbyn on the BBC is very unconvincing.
Doubtless I shall upset a few comrades-in-arms on here, but I will reiterate my view that Corbyn is not some "authentic" "new" face but an old school, hard left apparatcik who is only interested in "abroad" if the "abroad" in question is governed by proper soshulists.
At this time, the UK expects much more competence from HM Opposition.
Agree. John Major said that Labour really ought to be 10-15 points ahead in the polls, and that they are not, he put down to Corbyn.
A somewhat provocative pair of interventions, comrade! A fair challenge that warrants a response:
As per this article from Owen Jones last November, there are reasons why Labour is where it is. Firstly, a year ago the Lib Dems and Labour had a combined polling of less than 40% whereas the Tories plus UKIP had been polling at a combined 55% for at least a year.
The 2017 election changed everything and today the centre left is close to 50% whilst the Tories scrape 40% and Ukip is gone. Whilst Owen Jones does touch upon is demographics he neglects to mention the number of 17 year olds coming onto the electoral roll every year and those departing to vote in the big ballot box in the sky! That might be 750,000 17 year-olds with perhaps 600,000 dying each year?
Of course some will wish to challenge Corbyn but his record is currently: A) A brand new social democratic manifesto which won 40% of the vote and an additional 30 seats Building the largest Social Democratic Party in Europe with 570,000 members C) Challenging the direction of Brexit without challenging the democratic referendum of 2016
Of course some want Labour to adopt a full on remain position and fight the referendum result. That was the position of the Lib Dems at the last election - 8% in the polls then and 8% today suggests that this is not a winning strategy! Some are crying out for a new party - a Macron style saviour. Unfortunately for them, the UK has already had Blair with his third way and has little appetite for an SDP Mk2, as per this piece from the independent.
But here's the thing: none of this changes the Parliamentary arithmetic today. The UK has just 56 weeks left in the EU. Perhaps only half that time is available to make meaningful interventions which could affect the outcome? One can understand the desire of Liberal elite types to make a stand as they seek to carve out a niche to coincide with the possible collapse of this government. The reality is that the future is in the hands of the Tory remainers - people like Ken Clarke and John Major.
So rather than blame shifting they have to calculate whether they can get May to shift to a sensible position or they pull the plug on the government by crossing the floor - it really is that simple. The article by linked above talks to how Labour might improve poll ratings but that won't change what happens this year. So perhaps now is the time to unite so as to ensure that the Alt-Right either make a power play and/or Tory remainers leave the government and their party. Or Parliament takes back control re. amendments around the Customs Union and Brexit.
Unless one of these three options above occurs over the next nine months, then we are headed for a hard Brexit which many of us find quite disturbing. As far as 2018 is concerned, all the rest is noise!
I said ages ago that all of these negotiations are a waste of time and will fail and there is nothing going on at the moment to change my mind. The UK will get to the leaving date with nothing in place, and will then either beg for more time or say fuggit we're off. At that point practical issues will come into play, no shared airspace, lorries on the M20, visas and passport checks, the beginning of repatriations, physical border controls and so on. OR The UK will give up and say fuggit it is an impossible task (to implement the will of the people) we might as well stay in the EU. If the people don't like it, then demonstrate, take direct action, privateers can place small cannon on their fishing boats and blow up EU fishing vessels, vigilantes can randomly stop people in the streets and demand to see papers, the remain resistance can then fight with the brexit vigilantes, we can whip up a storm hinted at in the Catalan shenanigans. The will of the people can be made manifest by direct action by the people, and resisted by the people too. In this war brexiters can convince themselves they are righteous because they will have God the referendum result on their side.
I said ages ago that all of these negotiations are a waste of time and will fail and there is nothing going on at the moment to change my mind. The UK will get to the leaving date with nothing in place, and will then either beg for more time or say fuggit we're off. At that point practical issues will come into play, no shared airspace, lorries on the M20, visas and passport checks, the beginning of repatriations, physical border controls and so on. OR The UK will give up and say fuggit it is an impossible task (to implement the will of the people) we might as well stay in the EU. If the people don't like it, then demonstrate, take direct action, privateers can place small cannon on their fishing boats and blow up EU fishing vessels, vigilantes can randomly stop people in the streets and demand to see papers, the remain resistance can then fight with the brexit vigilantes, we can whip up a storm hinted at in the Catalan shenanigans. The will of the people can be made manifest by direct action by the people, and resisted by the people too. In this war brexiters can convince themselves they are righteous because they will have God the referendum result on their side.
You are right in that the clock is certainly ticking with May, Davis and the rest doing very little to resolve the issues. There can be no extension of the process for that requires unanimous approval from the EU27 and would also cause the UK to participate in the EU MEP elections. Given that we've had nearly two years so far, how would an extension help focus minds? Thus by default the current trajectory leads to the alt-right Brexiteers securing what they want.
That in turn puts the onus on Tory Cabinet and backbench remainers together with Parliament to get a grip. They are fully aware of this and they have the numbers alongside Labour, SNP and smaller parties to deliver membership of the Customs Union followed by a debate about the Single Market - one which talks of serious options rather than the nonsense spouted by Fox and Redwood.
What is hard to predict is when this might actually happen and whether it will lead to a collapse of the Government and a fresh election? One can maintain an optimistic outlook by listening to the likes of Soubry and Clarke and watching how this develops each week. Every month we move further away from June 2016 and the local election results will be another democratic indicator. If the Tories are wiped out in London then that may have profound consequences on their thinking. Later on this month the polls may well reveal the impact of the Labour policy statement on the Customs Union.
This article from a short while back explains quite a bit about how voter attitudes have shifted between 2015 and 2017. Brexit has been a catalyst in terms of participation and debate. A couple of highlights include the fact that Labour is way ahead for the U50s and that more remainers voted in the 2017 election than leavers. We can be sure that both main parties will have their eyes on how voter attitudes this year and next. Ideally the country finds resolution before we get to a crisis of Catalan proportions.
@seriously_red I don't mind conceding that my personal objection to Corbyn is visceral and goes back to student days. And I am puzzled and certainly disappointed that the Lib Dems are not recovering more quickly. But having reached 40% in the election, really they should be kicking on from there by now, don't you think? It's not just Corbyn. It's his whole cabinet. Look at it and then consider some of the heavy hitters that are not in it. Have you ever heard Richard Burgon speak? I have heard more coherent and incisive speakers from Greenwich Council. And he's supposedly going to be our Justice Minister, FFS. Whatever we may think of it now, with a shedload of hindsight, Blair put together a team that spanned the traditional Labour ground, and the winnable centre. The only one of Corbyn's team whom I think would have made it into the Blair team is Thornberry. The rest are lightweights. Blair had Brown, Prescott, Darling, Milburn, Blunkett, Beckett, and the incomparable Robin Cook. The media focus on Corbyn and McDonnell, and have failed to notice how crap the rest of the front bench is.
@seriously_red I don't mind conceding that my personal objection to Corbyn is visceral and goes back to student days. And I am puzzled and certainly disappointed that the Lib Dems are not recovering more quickly. But having reached 40% in the election, really they should be kicking on from there by now, don't you think? It's not just Corbyn. It's his whole cabinet. Look at it and then consider some of the heavy hitters that are not in it. Have you ever heard Richard Burgon speak? I have heard more coherent and incisive speakers from Greenwich Council. And he's supposedly going to be our Justice Minister, FFS. Whatever we may think of it now, with a shedload of hindsight, Blair put together a team that spanned the traditional Labour ground, and the winnable centre. The only one of Corbyn's team whom I think would have made it into the Blair team is Thornberry. The rest are lightweights. Blair had Brown, Prescott, Darling, Milburn, Blunkett, Beckett, and the incomparable Robin Cook. The media focus on Corbyn and McDonnell, and have failed to notice how crap the rest of the front bench is.
I wouldn't call Keir Starmer lightweight but take your point on the rest.
If Corbyn and McDonnell ever make it to nos 10 and 11 it will mean the combined IQ of the two men occupying those two addresses will be the lowest ever by a significant margin. That is one of my main concerns about the Labour Party at the moment; its entire shadow cabinet, apart from one or two exceptions, is populated by lightweights and second rate intellects.
@seriously_red I don't mind conceding that my personal objection to Corbyn is visceral and goes back to student days. And I am puzzled and certainly disappointed that the Lib Dems are not recovering more quickly. But having reached 40% in the election, really they should be kicking on from there by now, don't you think? It's not just Corbyn. It's his whole cabinet. Look at it and then consider some of the heavy hitters that are not in it. Have you ever heard Richard Burgon speak? I have heard more coherent and incisive speakers from Greenwich Council. And he's supposedly going to be our Justice Minister, FFS. Whatever we may think of it now, with a shedload of hindsight, Blair put together a team that spanned the traditional Labour ground, and the winnable centre. The only one of Corbyn's team whom I think would have made it into the Blair team is Thornberry. The rest are lightweights. Blair had Brown, Prescott, Darling, Milburn, Blunkett, Beckett, and the incomparable Robin Cook. The media focus on Corbyn and McDonnell, and have failed to notice how crap the rest of the front bench is.
I would rather give them a chance to show what they can do rather than dismiss them as lightweights with no evidence, unless of course you have evidence that they are? How many of the Blair cabinet where big hitters before they had the chance, as I remember a lot of them were written off prior to forming a government.
I said ages ago that all of these negotiations are a waste of time and will fail and there is nothing going on at the moment to change my mind. The UK will get to the leaving date with nothing in place, and will then either beg for more time or say fuggit we're off. At that point practical issues will come into play, no shared airspace, lorries on the M20, visas and passport checks, the beginning of repatriations, physical border controls and so on. OR The UK will give up and say fuggit it is an impossible task (to implement the will of the people) we might as well stay in the EU. If the people don't like it, then demonstrate, take direct action, privateers can place small cannon on their fishing boats and blow up EU fishing vessels, vigilantes can randomly stop people in the streets and demand to see papers, the remain resistance can then fight with the brexit vigilantes, we can whip up a storm hinted at in the Catalan shenanigans. The will of the people can be made manifest by direct action by the people, and resisted by the people too. In this war brexiters can convince themselves they are righteous because they will have God the referendum result on their side.
You are right in that the clock is certainly ticking with May, Davis and the rest doing very little to resolve the issues. There can be no extension of the process for that requires unanimous approval from the EU27 and would also cause the UK to participate in the EU MEP elections. Given that we've had nearly two years so far, how would an extension help focus minds? Thus by default the current trajectory leads to the alt-right Brexiteers securing what they want.
That in turn puts the onus on Tory Cabinet and backbench remainers together with Parliament to get a grip. They are fully aware of this and they have the numbers alongside Labour, SNP and smaller parties to deliver membership of the Customs Union followed by a debate about the Single Market - one which talks of serious options rather than the nonsense spouted by Fox and Redwood.
What is hard to predict is when this might actually happen and whether it will lead to a collapse of the Government and a fresh election? One can maintain an optimistic outlook by listening to the likes of Soubry and Clarke and watching how this develops each week. Every month we move further away from June 2016 and the local election results will be another democratic indicator. If the Tories are wiped out in London then that may have profound consequences on their thinking. Later on this month the polls may well reveal the impact of the Labour policy statement on the Customs Union.
This article from a short while back explains quite a bit about how voter attitudes have shifted between 2015 and 2017. Brexit has been a catalyst in terms of participation and debate. A couple of highlights include the fact that Labour is way ahead for the U50s and that more remainers voted in the 2017 election than leavers. We can be sure that both main parties will have their eyes on how voter attitudes this year and next. Ideally the country finds resolution before we get to a crisis of Catalan proportions.
Possibly the point is that the individuals leading Labour are poor, but the Tory alternative is nauseous. The attempted direction of travel by Labour is decent, but for the Tories it is a self serving mould growing across society. Of the two parties the Tories score a 3 out of 10, Labour a 5.5.
This 37% being made up from protest votes in poorer areas hurting badly from Tory austerity taking their chance to bloody the government's nose in a non-binding advisory referendum, what could go wrong? Then there were those leavers that thought we would be going to go into EFTA as they believed Farage when he'd repeatedly pointed out about Norway and Switzerland doing pretty well (no one's talking about leaving the SM) And then we have the out at any cost where High Court Justices are traitors, remainers are unpatriotic and all experts denigrated. Economic forecasts dismissed and the only good news is that it won't be a Mad Max-style world (no one said that it would). An open border into the UK through NI and overall decay to our hard won rights and standards. 1.2 million older voters that predominantly voted leave and have indeed departed to be replaced by youth that predominantly voted remain. The remain campaign was crap and punished for their arrogance by a £350million a week to save the NHS lie
What are we really doing this for, chlorinated chicken?
@seriously_red I don't mind conceding that my personal objection to Corbyn is visceral and goes back to student days. And I am puzzled and certainly disappointed that the Lib Dems are not recovering more quickly. But having reached 40% in the election, really they should be kicking on from there by now, don't you think? It's not just Corbyn. It's his whole cabinet. Look at it and then consider some of the heavy hitters that are not in it. Have you ever heard Richard Burgon speak? I have heard more coherent and incisive speakers from Greenwich Council. And he's supposedly going to be our Justice Minister, FFS. Whatever we may think of it now, with a shedload of hindsight, Blair put together a team that spanned the traditional Labour ground, and the winnable centre. The only one of Corbyn's team whom I think would have made it into the Blair team is Thornberry. The rest are lightweights. Blair had Brown, Prescott, Darling, Milburn, Blunkett, Beckett, and the incomparable Robin Cook. The media focus on Corbyn and McDonnell, and have failed to notice how crap the rest of the front bench is.
This is the problem that I have too. A cult has grown up around Corbyn that is fuelled by the hijacking of the Labour Party by his acolytes in Momentum. It’s sidelined and marginalised the Labour politicians that look like they could give the Tories a good run for their money. The front bench looks woeful. Diane Abbott gets an unfair amount of criticism but the reality is that the prospect of her becoming the Home Secretary frightens the hell out of me and I’m a traditional labour voter. It will stop a lot of people taking the plunge and voting Labour. In order to win the election Labour need to persuade a lot of Tory voters to switch. What’s on offer from Labour despite a decent manifesto won’t win an election. I really believe that practically any other labour leader would be miles ahead in the polls. Labour are doing ok despite Corbyn not because of him. The stranglehold that he now has on the party is in my opinion preventing there being an electable alternative to the moribund dross we currently have. That’s unforgivable.
I will vote Labour because I think Clive Efford is an honest hard working constituency MP. I still feel disenfranchised.
Comments
Leaving everything implies massive deregulation and that has no support. Ask Jo Public about the banks, consumer rights etc. and they want the same. And that is why Labour has sustained 40% + poll ratings for nine months now. For they stand for the consumer, the NHS, improved schools, more house building etc.
The rude shouty person's vote is worth the same as you and the rest of us. Should we have a successful soft Brexit then we will see a lot of rude shouty people supporting Farage, talking about betrayal etc. In response to that Labour are building the machinery and the message to put together a simple case for their manifesto, including consumer rights and against deregulation.
Both parties are moving to Brexit in name only.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-criticised-for-wilfully-reckless-comparison-between-irish-border-and-london-boroughs-a3776556.html
Man oozes hate and bile in a middle class wrapper.
I heard John Tusa on the radio the other day. He was Newsnight's original anchor, and such a class act. And, it turns out, of Czech family heritage. Newsnight's broadcasts of the fall of Communism changed my life. I would leave work colleagues in the pub, to rush home in time to catch it.
Ratings pressure, I guess.
As per this article from Owen Jones last November, there are reasons why Labour is where it is. Firstly, a year ago the Lib Dems and Labour had a combined polling of less than 40% whereas the Tories plus UKIP had been polling at a combined 55% for at least a year.
The 2017 election changed everything and today the centre left is close to 50% whilst the Tories scrape 40% and Ukip is gone. Whilst Owen Jones does touch upon is demographics he neglects to mention the number of 17 year olds coming onto the electoral roll every year and those departing to vote in the big ballot box in the sky! That might be 750,000 17 year-olds with perhaps 600,000 dying each year?
Of course some will wish to challenge Corbyn but his record is currently:
A) A brand new social democratic manifesto which won 40% of the vote and an additional 30 seats
C) Challenging the direction of Brexit without challenging the democratic referendum of 2016
Of course some want Labour to adopt a full on remain position and fight the referendum result. That was the position of the Lib Dems at the last election - 8% in the polls then and 8% today suggests that this is not a winning strategy! Some are crying out for a new party - a Macron style saviour. Unfortunately for them, the UK has already had Blair with his third way and has little appetite for an SDP Mk2, as per this piece from the independent.
But here's the thing: none of this changes the Parliamentary arithmetic today. The UK has just 56 weeks left in the EU. Perhaps only half that time is available to make meaningful interventions which could affect the outcome? One can understand the desire of Liberal elite types to make a stand as they seek to carve out a niche to coincide with the possible collapse of this government. The reality is that the future is in the hands of the Tory remainers - people like Ken Clarke and John Major.
So rather than blame shifting they have to calculate whether they can get May to shift to a sensible position or they pull the plug on the government by crossing the floor - it really is that simple. The article by linked above talks to how Labour might improve poll ratings but that won't change what happens this year. So perhaps now is the time to unite so as to ensure that the Alt-Right either make a power play and/or Tory remainers leave the government and their party. Or Parliament takes back control re. amendments around the Customs Union and Brexit.
Unless one of these three options above occurs over the next nine months, then we are headed for a hard Brexit which many of us find quite disturbing. As far as 2018 is concerned, all the rest is noise!
The UK will get to the leaving date with nothing in place, and will then either beg for more time or say fuggit we're off.
At that point practical issues will come into play, no shared airspace, lorries on the M20, visas and passport checks, the beginning of repatriations, physical border controls and so on.
OR
The UK will give up and say fuggit it is an impossible task (to implement the will of the people) we might as well stay in the EU. If the people don't like it, then demonstrate, take direct action, privateers can place small cannon on their fishing boats and blow up EU fishing vessels, vigilantes can randomly stop people in the streets and demand to see papers, the remain resistance can then fight with the brexit vigilantes, we can whip up a storm hinted at in the Catalan shenanigans.
The will of the people can be made manifest by direct action by the people, and resisted by the people too. In this war brexiters can convince themselves they are righteous because they will have
Godthe referendum result on their side.That in turn puts the onus on Tory Cabinet and backbench remainers together with Parliament to get a grip. They are fully aware of this and they have the numbers alongside Labour, SNP and smaller parties to deliver membership of the Customs Union followed by a debate about the Single Market - one which talks of serious options rather than the nonsense spouted by Fox and Redwood.
What is hard to predict is when this might actually happen and whether it will lead to a collapse of the Government and a fresh election? One can maintain an optimistic outlook by listening to the likes of Soubry and Clarke and watching how this develops each week. Every month we move further away from June 2016 and the local election results will be another democratic indicator. If the Tories are wiped out in London then that may have profound consequences on their thinking. Later on this month the polls may well reveal the impact of the Labour policy statement on the Customs Union.
This article from a short while back explains quite a bit about how voter attitudes have shifted between 2015 and 2017. Brexit has been a catalyst in terms of participation and debate. A couple of highlights include the fact that Labour is way ahead for the U50s and that more remainers voted in the 2017 election than leavers. We can be sure that both main parties will have their eyes on how voter attitudes this year and next. Ideally the country finds resolution before we get to a crisis of Catalan proportions.
It's not just Corbyn. It's his whole cabinet. Look at it and then consider some of the heavy hitters that are not in it. Have you ever heard Richard Burgon speak? I have heard more coherent and incisive speakers from Greenwich Council. And he's supposedly going to be our Justice Minister, FFS. Whatever we may think of it now, with a shedload of hindsight, Blair put together a team that spanned the traditional Labour ground, and the winnable centre. The only one of Corbyn's team whom I think would have made it into the Blair team is Thornberry. The rest are lightweights. Blair had Brown, Prescott, Darling, Milburn, Blunkett, Beckett, and the incomparable Robin Cook.
The media focus on Corbyn and McDonnell, and have failed to notice how crap the rest of the front bench is.
The attempted direction of travel by Labour is decent, but for the Tories it is a self serving mould growing across society.
Of the two parties the Tories score a 3 out of 10, Labour a 5.5.
This 37% being made up from protest votes in poorer areas hurting badly from Tory austerity taking their chance to bloody the government's nose in a non-binding advisory referendum, what could go wrong?
Then there were those leavers that thought we would be going to go into EFTA as they believed Farage when he'd repeatedly pointed out about Norway and Switzerland doing pretty well (no one's talking about leaving the SM)
And then we have the out at any cost where High Court Justices are traitors, remainers are unpatriotic and all experts denigrated. Economic forecasts dismissed and the only good news is that it won't be a Mad Max-style world (no one said that it would). An open border into the UK through NI and overall decay to our hard won rights and standards.
1.2 million older voters that predominantly voted leave and have indeed departed to be replaced by youth that predominantly voted remain.
The remain campaign was crap and punished for their arrogance by a £350million a week to save the NHS lie
What are we really doing this for, chlorinated chicken?
I really believe that practically any other labour leader would be miles ahead in the polls. Labour are doing ok despite Corbyn not because of him. The stranglehold that he now has on the party is in my opinion preventing there being an electable alternative to the moribund dross we currently have. That’s unforgivable.
I will vote Labour because I think Clive Efford is an honest hard working constituency MP. I still feel disenfranchised.