I suppose that where we differ is on whether Corbyn and co. are playing a smart, united game of politics to get us seamlessly to a Norway type soft-soft Brexit (which I think you are suggesting), or whether you see them as riven by conflict just as the Tories are, and with the hard-left sniffy about Europe types in charge, which is more my position.
The reason I tend to that is what i do understand about their background programme. I won't pretend I have read the whole thing, but two of my favourite topics are tax and railways (insert Charlton joke here). On railways their bland claim that they will re-nationalise them are simply not credible. Furthermore, their claim that EU membership is what stops them - because it would be judged to be State Aid - is either schoolboy ignorance or wilfully misleading. The main operators of the railways in every major EU country bar ours remains State owned.
Re tax, I am a fan of Richard Murphy, the TJN guy, and have often quoted him on the tax thread, but I am not sure he has the authority and depth to write an entire government fiscal strategy. I think he is in that role because he tells the hard left element that their fantasies can be achieved.
So in summary, you might be right, Labour is playing a canny game. I fear you are not. As you often conclude by saying, we will see.
PS I thought you had used the term neo-liberal to describe people like me, who would consider themselves to be moderate and socially liberal, whereas the term originated to describe Dubya's mob. Whatever else, I don't think you could park me with that lot. Maybe I misunderstood you.
I think that it has always been OK to re-nationalise stuff but that Corbyn was concerned that you couldn't provide state aid to struggling private companies e.g. Steel industry or provide an unfair playing field for state industries. I believe he has since had it demonstrated to him that it is possible to do both as it goes on in just about every country in Europe particularly your favourite place, Italy.
That's what I think the current chances of Brexit happening before the end of the decade are. Much lower than at any time throughout 2017.
No. Brexit means Brexit.
She was rowing back on pretty much everything she has said in the past on Andrew Marr this morning. Consensus seems to be Moggie and co will lay low for a bit and kick off again once the EU point out a few realities.
That's what I think the current chances of Brexit happening before the end of the decade are. Much lower than at any time throughout 2017.
No. Brexit means Brexit.
She was rowing back on pretty much everything she has said in the past on Andrew Marr this morning. Consensus seems to be Moggie and co will lay low for a bit and kick off again once the EU point out a few realities.
Not had a chance to watch it yet. That’s very interesting that she’s backing off.
There was no mention of Norway or Switzerland either.
Which is actually a huge part of the problem. As much Brexitears would like to imagine that people were all voting for the same thing, the single binary question was so wide and open to interpretation that the leave vote encompassed a huge rag-bag of people, some of whom wanted markedly different things and many of whom didn't have a clue what they were voting for. The spectrum of leave voters ranged from back-to-the-blitz geriatrics hankering for a country resembling the one they grew up in, to people who were mildly worried about bureaucracy and wanted to send a message to reform the EU, to people who just wanted to kick out against the government's austerity programme, to committed Euro-sceptics who wanted to leave everything, to people who thought that leaving would somehow give the country 'control of it's borders', to neo-liberals who imagined that the economy might be better in some unspecified way without wanting to leave the single market, to the gullible who swallowed the pathetic 'sovereignty' nonsense, to small-minded bigots with a fear of all things foreign, to those who imagined that the NHS really would be made well again. There was no grand consensus and at the time of the referendum few people had the slightest inkling of the post-vote issues. That is precisely why May would keep repeating the mantra 'Brexit means Brexit' like a demented Humpty-Dumpty trying to convince the nation that her words actually represented something in the real world simply because she had uttered them. There never was a united line on Brexit, it meant many things to many people. Whatever way we finally leave the EU, millions of people will be in for a disappointment because it won't be what they imagined they might get. How to take this ridiculous decision forward without upsetting huge swathes of people who'll say 'that isn't the Brexit I voted for', is one of the thing's that have given May's Morons such a headache for the past 18 months. The nonsense is set to continue.
My wife was looking at a local (Cornwall) based internet news service and they interviewed two blokes who voiced their outrage at the fact that Cornwall would lose it's EU funding (including the Eden Project). They both felt that Cornwall deserved the funding.
They were, and still are, both passionate leavers who when asked about the reason they voted to leave said "To take back control".
My wife was looking at a local (Cornwall) based internet news service and they interviewed two blokes who voiced their outrage at the fact that Cornwall would lose it's EU funding (including the Eden Project). They both felt that Cornwall deserved the funding.
They were, and still are, both passionate leavers who when asked about the reason they voted to leave said "To take back control".
My wife was looking at a local (Cornwall) based internet news service and they interviewed two blokes who voiced their outrage at the fact that Cornwall would lose it's EU funding (including the Eden Project). They both felt that Cornwall deserved the funding.
They were, and still are, both passionate leavers who when asked about the reason they voted to leave said "To take back control".
My wife was looking at a local (Cornwall) based internet news service and they interviewed two blokes who voiced their outrage at the fact that Cornwall would lose it's EU funding (including the Eden Project). They both felt that Cornwall deserved the funding.
They were, and still are, both passionate leavers who when asked about the reason they voted to leave said "To take back control".
My wife is originally from Cornwall and all her family still live there. To a man and woman they didn't have a clue that Cornwall even got EU funding. They voted Leave purely based on immigration even though they struggled (badly) to articulate how it was adversely affecting them or their sons and daughters.
My wife was looking at a local (Cornwall) based internet news service and they interviewed two blokes who voiced their outrage at the fact that Cornwall would lose it's EU funding (including the Eden Project). They both felt that Cornwall deserved the funding.
They were, and still are, both passionate leavers who when asked about the reason they voted to leave said "To take back control".
When I hear of stuff like this it really winds me up. This highlights what I mean by people taking responsibility for their vote. You want to take back control fine. You want the EU to continue funding your region afterwards. Do one. Laughable the general level of stupidity some people have.
I suppose that where we differ is on whether Corbyn and co. are playing a smart, united game of politics to get us seamlessly to a Norway type soft-soft Brexit (which I think you are suggesting), or whether you see them as riven by conflict just as the Tories are, and with the hard-left sniffy about Europe types in charge, which is more my position.
The reason I tend to that is what i do understand about their background programme. I won't pretend I have read the whole thing, but two of my favourite topics are tax and railways (insert Charlton joke here). On railways their bland claim that they will re-nationalise them are simply not credible. Furthermore, their claim that EU membership is what stops them - because it would be judged to be State Aid - is either schoolboy ignorance or wilfully misleading. The main operators of the railways in every major EU country bar ours remains State owned.
Re tax, I am a fan of Richard Murphy, the TJN guy, and have often quoted him on the tax thread, but I am not sure he has the authority and depth to write an entire government fiscal strategy. I think he is in that role because he tells the hard left element that their fantasies can be achieved.
So in summary, you might be right, Labour is playing a canny game. I fear you are not. As you often conclude by saying, we will see.
PS I thought you had used the term neo-liberal to describe people like me, who would consider themselves to be moderate and socially liberal, whereas the term originated to describe Dubya's mob. Whatever else, I don't think you could park me with that lot. Maybe I misunderstood you.
@PragueAddick what you write above is somewhat inprecise. As posted before, go read the manifesto or articles around the various policies. It's up to all of us if we wish to comment upon the Brexit and Labour journeys but surely it is best to be well informed? It is hard to misinterpret the trains policy as it is clearly not to renationalise in one go but simply to allow the franchises to run out. This article from the BBC in which McDonnell states "As the franchises end, we would bring them back into public ownership,". Not only is this a very simple policy to communicate and implement but it has a very high approval rate. One simply cannot debate an irrational claim that this isn't credible. Especially as there are already several franchises run in the public sector.
I have assumed that too, that as the train franchises run out they return to public ownership. On trains I can't believe any government body would be worse than what we have.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Out of curiousity, why? Which of Merkel's policies is worth wrecking our own economy over?
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Out of curiousity, why? Which of Merkel's policies is worth wrecking our own economy over?
For a start if the EU was serious about us remaining they would have given something to Cameron to come back to us with. The fact that they gave him fuck all shows just how little they respect us.
The main reason why I voted for Brexit is because of how little influence the UK has in the EU.
When people say we would have been better remaining and trying to reform from within I call bollox.
The EU will never reform all the while Merkel is in charge and that's why we are leaving
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Out of curiousity, why? Which of Merkel's policies is worth wrecking our own economy over?
For a start if the EU was serious about us remaining they would have given something to Cameron to come back to us with. The fact that they gave him fuck all shows just how little they respect us.
The main reason why I voted for Brexit is because of how little influence the UK has in the EU.
When people say we would have been better remaining and trying to reform from within I call bollox.
The EU will never reform all the while Merkel is in charge and that's why we are leaving
Any change will be towards a more federal, centralised eurozone. Only a very small proportion of British voters have ever wanted to be part of that.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Out of curiousity, why? Which of Merkel's policies is worth wrecking our own economy over?
For a start if the EU was serious about us remaining they would have given something to Cameron to come back to us with. The fact that they gave him fuck all shows just how little they respect us.
The main reason why I voted for Brexit is because of how little influence the UK has in the EU.
When people say we would have been better remaining and trying to reform from within I call bollox.
The EU will never reform all the while Merkel is in charge and that's why we are leaving
Any change will be towards a more federal, centralised eurozone. Only a very small proportion of British voters have ever wanted to be part of that.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Out of curiousity, why? Which of Merkel's policies is worth wrecking our own economy over?
I wish we had somebody like her compared to what we've got!
I suppose that where we differ is on whether Corbyn and co. are playing a smart, united game of politics to get us seamlessly to a Norway type soft-soft Brexit (which I think you are suggesting), or whether you see them as riven by conflict just as the Tories are, and with the hard-left sniffy about Europe types in charge, which is more my position.
The reason I tend to that is what i do understand about their background programme. I won't pretend I have read the whole thing, but two of my favourite topics are tax and railways (insert Charlton joke here). On railways their bland claim that they will re-nationalise them are simply not credible. Furthermore, their claim that EU membership is what stops them - because it would be judged to be State Aid - is either schoolboy ignorance or wilfully misleading. The main operators of the railways in every major EU country bar ours remains State owned.
Re tax, I am a fan of Richard Murphy, the TJN guy, and have often quoted him on the tax thread, but I am not sure he has the authority and depth to write an entire government fiscal strategy. I think he is in that role because he tells the hard left element that their fantasies can be achieved.
So in summary, you might be right, Labour is playing a canny game. I fear you are not. As you often conclude by saying, we will see.
PS I thought you had used the term neo-liberal to describe people like me, who would consider themselves to be moderate and socially liberal, whereas the term originated to describe Dubya's mob. Whatever else, I don't think you could park me with that lot. Maybe I misunderstood you.
@PragueAddick what you write above is somewhat inprecise. As posted before, go read the manifesto or articles around the various policies. It's up to all of us if we wish to comment upon the Brexit and Labour journeys but surely it is best to be well informed? It is hard to misinterpret the trains policy as it is clearly not to renationalise in one go but simply to allow the franchises to run out. This article from the BBC in which McDonnell states "As the franchises end, we would bring them back into public ownership,". Not only is this a very simple policy to communicate and implement but it has a very high approval rate. One simply cannot debate an irrational claim that this isn't credible. Especially as there are already several franchises run in the public sector.
You are provoking thread creep, and worse, pushing it towards trains, but I did warn everyone trains are a hobby of mine (with a business backbone, BR was my old agency client, and a mate of mine was a DoT project manager on the calamitous privatisation ).
The current EU Single Market approach to the railways is to require Open Access. Every country needs to permit private operators to be able to "access the network" i.e. run some trains on given routes. The current Labour party approach to re-nationalisation therefore isn't compatible with EU Single Market membership, because new private operators would not be able to run trains, and eventually there would be no private operators once all the franchises had run out. Hence my point.
The public is in favour of re-nationalisation of the railways and you won't find a bigger or more detailed critic of the current set up on CL than me. But as with Brexit itself, the public has not yet been given any detail from Labour on how its plan will make their journeys any better. Detailed research shows the public want a simplified national ticketing system so that you can just book a ticket online between say Plymouth and Newcastle, irrespective of the colour scheme of the sodding train, and be sure you have got the best price deal. As In Germany, As Usual. That is not addressed by McDonnell's "plan", as are a lot of other things. But doubtless in response he will come out with "Nationalisation means Nationalisation".
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Out of curiousity, why? Which of Merkel's policies is worth wrecking our own economy over?
For a start if the EU was serious about us remaining they would have given something to Cameron to come back to us with. The fact that they gave him fuck all shows just how little they respect us.
The main reason why I voted for Brexit is because of how little influence the UK has in the EU.
When people say we would have been better remaining and trying to reform from within I call bollox.
The EU will never reform all the while Merkel is in charge and that's why we are leaving
I disagree that Merkel is 'in charge', and also disagree about the UK having little influence in the EU. The UK has been a major participator in the EU for nearly 50 years and has contributed to shaping it into what it is now, if you like the UK has been a rule makers not rule taker.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Out of curiousity, why? Which of Merkel's policies is worth wrecking our own economy over?
For a start if the EU was serious about us remaining they would have given something to Cameron to come back to us with. The fact that they gave him fuck all shows just how little they respect us.
The main reason why I voted for Brexit is because of how little influence the UK has in the EU.
When people say we would have been better remaining and trying to reform from within I call bollox.
The EU will never reform all the while Merkel is in charge and that's why we are leaving
Thanks for sharing that view - genuine and ties into the whole sovereignty / control theme which Leave were touting. It also continues the theme that since Germany is doing very well, the EU is essentially run on their behalf. Now, one could counter that by stating that the Eurozone overall is doing very well and is the world's third biggest currency and trading area after the US and China. And that it is up to the other big players in the Eurozone to agree where it needs to go to prosper.
And I agree with the comment by @Southbank As posted before we are not in the Eurozone and never will be. Cameron was playing high risk games and was never going to come back with much - it was simpler for him to do this than confront the reality back home. What happens to our schools, universities, hospitals and house building is completely unaffected. Unless of course our economy suffers a setback from a bodged leave execution.
Where we might differ is that economically and politically many believe that we should remain in a customs union and within a single market alongside nations such as Norway, Sweden and Denmark who will also never join the Euro.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Out of curiousity, why? Which of Merkel's policies is worth wrecking our own economy over?
For a start if the EU was serious about us remaining they would have given something to Cameron to come back to us with. The fact that they gave him fuck all shows just how little they respect us.
The main reason why I voted for Brexit is because of how little influence the UK has in the EU.
When people say we would have been better remaining and trying to reform from within I call bollox.
The EU will never reform all the while Merkel is in charge and that's why we are leaving
You may not be aware of the following because it doesn't get much spoken about nowadays; the reason why all across Europe utilities companies in telcos, energy, and water are private, and invade each other's territory, encouraged by the European Commission, is because of the arguments of one country in the period 89-92 which persuaded the other EU countries that this was the new capitalist, free market, way to go. This was in the time following the fall of communism, and Germany in particular was too consumed with absorbing the East to really interrogate how this might all work out in practice.
And which country was it, that has foisted a private monopoly in water supply on every EU country?
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
Comments
(I didn't select that option).
That's what I think the current chances of Brexit happening before the end of the decade are. Much lower than at any time throughout 2017.
They were, and still are, both passionate leavers who when asked about the reason they voted to leave said "To take back control".
The fact that they gave him fuck all shows just how little they respect us.
The main reason why I voted for Brexit is because of how little influence the UK has in the EU.
When people say we would have been better remaining and trying to reform from within I call bollox.
The EU will never reform all the while Merkel is in charge and that's why we are leaving
The current EU Single Market approach to the railways is to require Open Access. Every country needs to permit private operators to be able to "access the network" i.e. run some trains on given routes. The current Labour party approach to re-nationalisation therefore isn't compatible with EU Single Market membership, because new private operators would not be able to run trains, and eventually there would be no private operators once all the franchises had run out. Hence my point.
The public is in favour of re-nationalisation of the railways and you won't find a bigger or more detailed critic of the current set up on CL than me. But as with Brexit itself, the public has not yet been given any detail from Labour on how its plan will make their journeys any better. Detailed research shows the public want a simplified national ticketing system so that you can just book a ticket online between say Plymouth and Newcastle, irrespective of the colour scheme of the sodding train, and be sure you have got the best price deal. As In Germany, As Usual. That is not addressed by McDonnell's "plan", as are a lot of other things. But doubtless in response he will come out with "Nationalisation means Nationalisation".
The UK has been a major participator in the EU for nearly 50 years and has contributed to shaping it into what it is now, if you like the UK has been a rule makers not rule taker.
And I agree with the comment by @Southbank As posted before we are not in the Eurozone and never will be. Cameron was playing high risk games and was never going to come back with much - it was simpler for him to do this than confront the reality back home. What happens to our schools, universities, hospitals and house building is completely unaffected. Unless of course our economy suffers a setback from a bodged leave execution.
Where we might differ is that economically and politically many believe that we should remain in a customs union and within a single market alongside nations such as Norway, Sweden and Denmark who will also never join the Euro.
And which country was it, that has foisted a private monopoly in water supply on every EU country?
The good old UK.
Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing.
If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor.
I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope