Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
Have you asked any of them? And if so what did they say? How did they relate their problems to EU membership? Did the Italians persuade you that the EU invented the Cosa Nostra?
And have you asked any Slovaks? That is a small, and relatively poor country.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
Based on what measure? I've seen several different studies around the standard of living and Germany is not the top ranked EU country in any of them.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
You are not giving any consideration to the general strength of the members respective economies. Germany has been a powerhouses economy pretty much since the end of WW2. They are not “winners” at the expense of “losers”. In fact the winners as you call them are paying through their membership to subsidise the poorer economies and help improve infrastructure allowing those economies to grow and in growing improve the market. A good example of a country that is almost completely unrecognisable since membership of the eu and it’s previous incarnations is Spain. I just cannot understand the lack of understanding about the eu although it does explain why people voted to leave without understanding what they voted for.
Will be interesting to see how today's Italian election goes but being in or out of the EU hasn't really featured as a particular talking point in the run up, or at least in my following of it. The Five Star movement (sadly not inspired by the 80s band) are against EU budget rules so their performance should give an indication as to the mood of Italians towards the EU. I imagine most Italians, like the Spanish, want to be part of a reform of the EU rather than reject it completely.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
I understand your point, but I don't see how the UK has been a loser.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
And how much of the Greek and Italian turmoil is due to their internal strife and how much of it is to do with Germany, or the EU?
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
And how much of the Greek and Italian turmoil is due to their internal strife and how much of it is to do with Germany, or the EU?
When Greece were not a part of the EU and they still had their own currency they were doing fine. The notion that the euro fits all is ridiculous. The German economy will always be stronger than the Greeks so Germany will always do better.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
And how much of the Greek and Italian turmoil is due to their internal strife and how much of it is to do with Germany, or the EU?
When Greece were not a part of the EU and they still had their own currency they were doing fine. The notion that the euro fits all is ridiculous. The German economy will always be stronger than the Greeks so Germany will always do better.
It was an illusion they were doing fine. It’s well documented how much of a basket case their whole system was. It’s also not necessary for an eu member to be part of the Euro is it. Prague will be far more knowledgeable than I on such matters but the eu members from Eastern Europe are booming within the eu membership. Remind me how many are members of the euro.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
And how much of the Greek and Italian turmoil is due to their internal strife and how much of it is to do with Germany, or the EU?
When Greece were not a part of the EU and they still had their own currency they were doing fine. The notion that the euro fits all is ridiculous. The German economy will always be stronger than the Greeks so Germany will always do better.
I agree with you about Greece - The Euro was a stupid idea, but we weren't in it.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
And how much of the Greek and Italian turmoil is due to their internal strife and how much of it is to do with Germany, or the EU?
When Greece were not a part of the EU and they still had their own currency they were doing fine. The notion that the euro fits all is ridiculous. The German economy will always be stronger than the Greeks so Germany will always do better.
It was an illusion they were doing fine. It’s well documented how much of a basket case their whole system was. It’s also not necessary for an eu member to be part of the Euro is it. Prague will be far more knowledgeable than I on such matters but the eu members from Eastern Europe are booming within the eu membership. Remind me how many are members of the euro.
That's right. Slovakia is in the euro, and has been roaring along compared with the neighbours despite having a large and difficult "tail" of the population in the east which is peasant and or Romany. CZ is now doing much better than it has been, (not in the euro), and with an employment crisis (i.e., not enough people to fill the vacancies). Poland avoided a recession altogether during the 08-09 crisis. Slovenia and all three Baltic states are in the euro, differences in performance are down to national issues. Outside the eurozone, Romania has been growing at 6% plus, even Bulgaria is picking up well now. Hungary? After the fall of the Wall, this was the star country, always one step ahead, but they fucked themselves around the turn of the century, thinking they could take out mortgages in Swiss francs and Japanese yen, and now they are looking for someone else to blame.
If anyone cares to drag themselves through the bog that is Yanis Varoufakis book, you will find that in the end, despite slagging off all and sundry, he is still pro EU. He campaigned for Remain in the referendum. He fails in his book or anywhere else to recognise the endemic corruption in his country, suggesting instead that a few oligarchs have robbed blind the wonderful ordinary citizens of Greece. I know at first hand that is bullshit, Greeks in advertising agencies were telling me in 2004 that everything was "bought". Even the Bulgarians now laugh at how useless the Greeks are in running anything.
As for Italy, with its mafia eating away at the country continuously since before the Common Market was established, no politicians doing anything and middle class Italians focusing on hiding their wealth from the taxman...well, like I said earlier, if you could roll back the clock to 1962, you wouldn't invite Italy in.
Things we can learn from Europe: 66 per cent of those who voted (in the SPD referendum) backed a grand coalition with the CDU and its Bavarian sister party the CSU. We will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term plus some movement on developments for the Eurozone as Merkel, Macron, Rajoy and the rest agree where they wish to change things.
The fact that we will now see Merkel in power for a fourth term is proof enough for me that voting Brexit was correct
Yeah the Germans really have fucked up havn’t they. Thank god we don’t suffer like they do.
My point is that they do better than everyone else in the EU
And the UK does better than the Portuguese. I don’t understand your point.
My point is that there are winners and losers. Ask the Greeks and the Italians how they are doing. If we remain in EU our bargaining position is very poor. I do not believe that the EU can be reformed from within. Having said that the new chap in charge in France does give me some hope
And how much of the Greek and Italian turmoil is due to their internal strife and how much of it is to do with Germany, or the EU?
When Greece were not a part of the EU and they still had their own currency they were doing fine. The notion that the euro fits all is ridiculous. The German economy will always be stronger than the Greeks so Germany will always do better.
It was an illusion they were doing fine. It’s well documented how much of a basket case their whole system was. It’s also not necessary for an eu member to be part of the Euro is it. Prague will be far more knowledgeable than I on such matters but the eu members from Eastern Europe are booming within the eu membership. Remind me how many are members of the euro.
That's right. Slovakia is in the euro, and has been roaring along compared with the neighbours despite having a large and difficult "tail" of the population in the east which is peasant and or Romany. CZ is now doing much better than it has been, (not in the euro), and with an employment crisis (i.e., not enough people to fill the vacancies). Poland avoided a recession altogether during the 08-09 crisis. Slovenia and all three Baltic states are in the euro, differences in performance are down to national issues. Outside the eurozone, Romania has been growing at 6% plus, even Bulgaria is picking up well now. Hungary? After the fall of the Wall, this was the star country, always one step ahead, but they fucked themselves around the turn of the century, thinking they could take out mortgages in Swiss francs and Japanese yen, and now they are looking for someone else to blame.
If anyone cares to drag themselves through the bog that is Yanis Varoufakis book, you will find that in the end, despite slagging off all and sundry, he is still pro EU. He campaigned for Remain in the referendum. He fails in his book or anywhere else to recognise the endemic corruption in his country, suggesting instead that a few oligarchs have robbed blind the wonderful ordinary citizens of Greece. I know at first hand that is bullshit, Greeks in advertising agencies were telling me in 2004 that everything was "bought". Even the Bulgarians now laugh at how useless the Greeks are in running anything.
As for Italy, with its mafia eating away at the country continuously since before the Common Market was established, no politicians doing anything and middle class Italians focusing on hiding their wealth from the taxman...well, like I said earlier, if you could roll back the clock to 1962, you wouldn't invite Italy in.
Brilliant deconstruction of the bollocks that Italy and Greece would be rosy if it weren't for the EU. Time for Brexiters to stop hanging onto this bullshit and wake up, instead of indulging their fantasies that a Merkel led Germany is essentially turning the EU into the 4th Reich.
Spend a bit of time in Romania through work and it's fair to say that being in the EU has had a hugely positive impact in the country through its investment in the infrastructure and bringing it into modern Europe, so I'm not sure if they would be classed as one of the 'losers' of the EU either.
Will be interesting to see how today's Italian election goes but being in or out of the EU hasn't really featured as a particular talking point in the run up, or at least in my following of it. The Five Star movement (sadly not inspired by the 80s band) are against EU budget rules so their performance should give an indication as to the mood of Italians towards the EU. I imagine most Italians, like the Spanish, want to be part of a reform of the EU rather than reject it completely.
The result has been predicted as a three way split between M5*, Renzi's Progressive Democrats and Berlusconi's Forza Italia with none of them reaching 40% required to form a government on their own. They have all denied that they will work with each other during the campaign for that is the way to build up a campaign. However the horse-trading will start tonight and run for however long it takes.
It's completely unclear what M5* actually stand for although polls suggest that they will be the largest party.
What we should be clear about is that Italy needs certain Eurozone reforms and a helping hand, and the Eurozone needs to be reformed in such a way that assists Italy, Spain and Greece. And that countries need to undertake their own programmes in order to boost growth. Corruption is a separate aspect altogether and to suggest that it is the sole cause of issues in Italy and Greece is somewhat wide of the mark.
There are many, many academic solutions proposed but the baseline is the current EU proposals which talk to real support for structural reform and a "convergence facility to assist EU states joining the Euro", more banking union and a stabilisation function to deal with future shocks.
It is the first to which Merkel has spoken in terms of grants to nations in support and exchange for reforms. These are reforms for the modernisation of public administration and assisting with the business environment, i.e., make business more effective, more open to foreign operators and local firms open to merger and acquisition. And there is also talk of various functions merging to become a European Monetary Fund.
The question is what does "modernisation of public administration" actually mean and how much will the EU boost funds to deal with this area. Italy grew at 1.5% last year and unemployment reduced - everybody wins if that trend continues.
But what hand will M5* play as it's likely that the exit polls will announce them as the largest party in an hour's time. But not the largest coalition which is tipped to be Burlusconi and his far right allies.
Agree with @PragueAddick re: comments about Greece and Italy. Greece’s problems with it’s finances were due to the fact they decided to ignore things like taxing their shipping industry and general financial mismanagement. The only thing Greece did wrong was paying a shed load of accountants like JP Morgan to make it look like it’s house was in order to join the Euro when it clearly wasn’t, and probably not disclosing that to the likes of JP Morgan.
They saw the Euro as a chance to pull up the value of their currency like Italy did and try and let being part of the EU carry their own incompetence and in Italy’s case probably corruption.
You may make the point that the EU are now bailing out the Greeks and we as part of the EU are having to pay for their mistakes, but we’re not. Ask any Greek person and the EU pretty much have them by the short and curlies to eek out as much money as possible without letting them have any kind of say over their fiscal policy
That’s not because the EU are some nasty organisation out to screw Greece over, it’s because it’s the only way the EU can make sure they don’t have to end up paying out more money
You could argue that better checks and balances should’ve been carried out before perhaps admitting someone like Greece, but how were they to have the foresight or knowledge their economy was such a shit show
You could even make the argument for the U.K. not being in as rude a health as you would assume given we’re the 5th largest economy in the world or whatever it is. We have an incredibly high pile of unsecured debt growing in this country that is just an interest rate rise or two away from starting to potentially bite. Still, given the ever growing number of models that predict our economy will do so well when we leave, we needn’t worry and that debt probably won’t be a problem :-/
Italy exit poll Alt-right anti-immigrant NL 15% Burlusconi FI 12% => centre right coalition 34% Renzi PD 22% coalition 27% M5* 31%
Nobody has made it to 40%
71% turnout
@cabbles and others - how Italy and Greece joined the EU and Euro is now somewhat irrelevant. What matters now is the approach that the Eurozone takes 2018-20.
Nobody is clear what M5* want to do - last seen enjoying a mad party in Rome!
Italy exit poll Alt-right anti-immigrant NL 15% Burlusconi FI 12% => centre right coalition 34% Renzi PD 22% coalition 27% M5* 31%
Nobody has made it to 40%
71% turnout
@cabbles and others - how Italy and Greece joined the EU and Euro is now somewhat irrelevant. What matters now is the approach that the Eurozone takes 2018-20.
Nobody is clear what M5* want to do - last seen enjoying a mad party in Rome!
More evidence that US big business is already lobbying for the UK to roll back on consumer protection measures. Get ready for sprayable stilton to stuff your chlorinated chickens with...
My wife was looking at a local (Cornwall) based internet news service and they interviewed two blokes who voiced their outrage at the fact that Cornwall would lose it's EU funding (including the Eden Project). They both felt that Cornwall deserved the funding.
They were, and still are, both passionate leavers who when asked about the reason they voted to leave said "To take back control".
When I hear of stuff like this it really winds me up. This highlights what I mean by people taking responsibility for their vote. You want to take back control fine. You want the EU to continue funding your region afterwards. Do one. Laughable the general level of stupidity some people have.
As one of the largest net contributors to the EU budget it must also be the case that we have indirectly in part funded the Eden Project and improvements to The Slovakian and Romanian economies. All good things but not free.
The boost for far-right and populist parties has drawn comparisons to Britain's vote to leave the European Union and the rise of US President Donald Trump.
The boost for far-right and populist parties has drawn comparisons to Britain's vote to leave the European Union and the rise of US President Donald Trump.
Comments
And have you asked any Slovaks? That is a small, and relatively poor country.
The notion that the euro fits all is ridiculous.
The German economy will always be stronger than the Greeks so Germany will always do better.
If anyone cares to drag themselves through the bog that is Yanis Varoufakis book, you will find that in the end, despite slagging off all and sundry, he is still pro EU. He campaigned for Remain in the referendum. He fails in his book or anywhere else to recognise the endemic corruption in his country, suggesting instead that a few oligarchs have robbed blind the wonderful ordinary citizens of Greece. I know at first hand that is bullshit, Greeks in advertising agencies were telling me in 2004 that everything was "bought". Even the Bulgarians now laugh at how useless the Greeks are in running anything.
As for Italy, with its mafia eating away at the country continuously since before the Common Market was established, no politicians doing anything and middle class Italians focusing on hiding their wealth from the taxman...well, like I said earlier, if you could roll back the clock to 1962, you wouldn't invite Italy in.
It's completely unclear what M5* actually stand for although polls suggest that they will be the largest party.
What we should be clear about is that Italy needs certain Eurozone reforms and a helping hand, and the Eurozone needs to be reformed in such a way that assists Italy, Spain and Greece. And that countries need to undertake their own programmes in order to boost growth. Corruption is a separate aspect altogether and to suggest that it is the sole cause of issues in Italy and Greece is somewhat wide of the mark.
There are many, many academic solutions proposed but the baseline is the current EU proposals which talk to real support for structural reform and a "convergence facility to assist EU states joining the Euro", more banking union and a stabilisation function to deal with future shocks.
It is the first to which Merkel has spoken in terms of grants to nations in support and exchange for reforms. These are reforms for the modernisation of public administration and assisting with the business environment, i.e., make business more effective, more open to foreign operators and local firms open to merger and acquisition. And there is also talk of various functions merging to become a European Monetary Fund.
The question is what does "modernisation of public administration" actually mean and how much will the EU boost funds to deal with this area. Italy grew at 1.5% last year and unemployment reduced - everybody wins if that trend continues.
But what hand will M5* play as it's likely that the exit polls will announce them as the largest party in an hour's time. But not the largest coalition which is tipped to be Burlusconi and his far right allies.
They saw the Euro as a chance to pull up the value of their currency like Italy did and try and let being part of the EU carry their own incompetence and in Italy’s case probably corruption.
You may make the point that the EU are now bailing out the Greeks and we as part of the EU are having to pay for their mistakes, but we’re not. Ask any Greek person and the EU pretty much have them by the short and curlies to eek out as much money as possible without letting them have any kind of say over their fiscal policy
That’s not because the EU are some nasty organisation out to screw Greece over, it’s because it’s the only way the EU can make sure they don’t have to end up paying out more money
You could argue that better checks and balances should’ve been carried out before perhaps admitting someone like Greece, but how were they to have the foresight or knowledge their economy was such a shit show
You could even make the argument for the U.K. not being in as rude a health as you would assume given we’re the 5th largest economy in the world or whatever it is. We have an incredibly high pile of unsecured debt growing in this country that is just an interest rate rise or two away from starting to potentially bite. Still, given the ever growing number of models that predict our economy will do so well when we leave, we needn’t worry and that debt probably won’t be a problem :-/
Nobody has made it to 40%
71% turnout
@cabbles and others - how Italy and Greece joined the EU and Euro is now somewhat irrelevant. What matters now is the approach that the Eurozone takes 2018-20.
Nobody is clear what M5* want to do - last seen enjoying a mad party in Rome!
https://inews.co.uk/news/us-lobbying-uk-drop-food-name-protections-sell-cornish-pasties/
'Bad night' for EU
The boost for far-right and populist parties has drawn comparisons to Britain's
vote to leave the European Union and the rise of US President Donald Trump.
This will be seen in further elections!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43272700
Italy's 5-Star sheds anti-EU image, calls for reform