I see. Well another time then. I should be over early Feb on Olympic Stadium duty, haven't checked the CAFC calendar yet.
Also, Chips I wanted to ask you this academic question. If I had moved my permanent address in 1993 not to Prague, but to Aberdeen, and I lived there now, and made a big thing about Scotland's pro-EU outlook, would you be saying the same thing about me, wanting the chance to return when it all goes pear-shaped in Scotland? What would be the difference about my decision to relocate, Prague vs Aberdeen. OK obviously Aberdeen is currently part of the UK, but who knows for how long?
No I wouldn't as Scotland is part of the UK. and will always remain so. The jocks despite what some people think don't have the stomache for another referendum. Most have accepted it.
I have always had strong beliefs that people who don't reside in the UK should not have any influence or say on what happens in the UK by means of their vote. I cant vote in any other country and neither should I and if I could I wouldn't on that principle.
But Prague pays UK income tax. He pays into our public services. For me it’s as simple as that. It doesn’t matter if he resides in Prague or Peterborough.
Last month I was in Germany, I paid local tax in the hotel, local tax on everything I bought...that pays for their public services. Now where's me voting form. But I wont fill it in of course.
That’s a duty though and millions of tourists pay duties all over the world everyday. I’m talking about income tax.
Its tax
But Germans pay duties on our products and services when they visit here in the same way you do there. One another cancel each other out
I’m talking about Prague physically paying into our system through income tax
I can’t see how you can deny him (he’s also still retaining British citizenship) a vote
No, and it isn't just current income tax. I have spent a lifetime paying into the state pension system. Doesn't that count for something? I've got my family back in Eltham. My Mum passed away, graciously sparing us more than a passing brush with the chaos of the U.K. elderly care system, not to mention the associated strain on the NHS. Don't I get a say in what to do about that? What about my sisters kids and the Uni fees which I have had to help pay for? Don't. I get a say in that.?
There are of course Brits who really do leave. My best mate from Portsmouth Poly left for Australia in 1981, never came back, and is an Oz citizen now. He made his choice. Its a big choice. He hasn't been to see Pompey more than twice since then.
Quite obviously I haven't made that kind of move. Apart from all the things I've listed above, I am physically not far away. I mentioned Aberdeen because several of my best mates come from there, although they are all settled in London and the south. And here is the thing. Care to guess how much difference in flying time there is London -Aberdeen vs London - Prague? On average, 10 minutes. Ten fucking minutes. And on a day when a strong westerly is sweeping across the continent, probably no difference at all.
So Chippy my dear friend, when you say I don't have the same right as you to vote and have a say in the direction of my country, I say go fuck yourself it's my country as much as it is yours.
Not very nice that last bit. I lived in Scotland in the 80's for 6 years and still hold a minor interest there. i was not asked to vote in their referendum and neither should I...It's the same thing. Reply as much as you like but everyone knows where i stand and i will not move my stance.
Out of interest @PragueAddick are you eligible to vote in all three tiers of Uk and Czech democracy e.g. General local and Mep.
I may be wrong but I think my sons Czech girlfriend can vote in the local uk elections but not the other two in the Uk. Will ask when she returns from Prague in a few days.
One of my friends has lived in Sweden since the mid 90's. He's still a british citizen/passport holder as far as I know, but he says he can't vote anymore due to the time he's been away.
Having just looked it up;
"British citizens living abroad can vote in UK Parliamentary and European Parliamentary elections but cannot vote in local elections or elections to devolved bodies such as the Scottish Parliament, National Assembly for Wales or Greater London Authority.
British citizens living abroad for more than 15 years are not eligible to register to vote in UK elections."
Chippy's stance is the equivalent of denying the vote to any British government or armed forces personnel who are deployed overseas for a substantial length of time.
Out of interest @PragueAddick are you eligible to vote in all three tiers of Uk and Czech democracy e.g. General local and Mep.
I may be wrong but I think my sons Czech girlfriend can vote in the local uk elections but not the other two in the Uk. Will ask when she returns from Prague in a few days.
With the MEP, it is a matter of choice, i.e. she can elect to cast her vote either in the UK or CZ. She would fill out a form in the UK if she wished to cast her vote there. If she has tried that over there and been rebuffed, i would be interested to get the details, but to be fair I doubt it. Generally I find people who work in the electoral system to be right on top of their game, and very pleasant and helpful with it. That's true here in CZ too, and the last part of that is unusual in the State machine here. I think that people find the implementation of democracy to be inspiring work.
Looking forward to hearing more about the carp, btw, but not on this thread :-)
I see our glorious leaders are looking at 'Taking Back Control' of our borders using volunteers ffs...volunteers! I look forward to @PragueAddick experiences with one these checking his passport.
I have been able to vote in European elections here but not general elections, and the other way around for UK elections. People moving around for periods of their life is a feature of the modern world and even more so when people are in marriages or partnerships with people from other countries.
Not being allowed to vote if you live abroad is quite an old fashioned concept but is also illogical if you consider people serving in the armed forces, working for the British government or even British companies abroad. You don't stop becoming a citizen of a country because of your personal situation, or stop becoming involved in many aspect of the country. I found it extremely offensive to be called a 'coward' on here for living abroad but now I can see that it is actually just a really antiquated way to see the modern world. You don't stop becoming proud of your country and deeply invested in it if you are away from it.
I see. Well another time then. I should be over early Feb on Olympic Stadium duty, haven't checked the CAFC calendar yet.
Also, Chips I wanted to ask you this academic question. If I had moved my permanent address in 1993 not to Prague, but to Aberdeen, and I lived there now, and made a big thing about Scotland's pro-EU outlook, would you be saying the same thing about me, wanting the chance to return when it all goes pear-shaped in Scotland? What would be the difference about my decision to relocate, Prague vs Aberdeen. OK obviously Aberdeen is currently part of the UK, but who knows for how long?
No I wouldn't as Scotland is part of the UK. and will always remain so. The jocks despite what some people think don't have the stomache for another referendum. Most have accepted it.
I have always had strong beliefs that people who don't reside in the UK should not have any influence or say on what happens in the UK by means of their vote. I cant vote in any other country and neither should I and if I could I wouldn't on that principle.
But Prague pays UK income tax. He pays into our public services. For me it’s as simple as that. It doesn’t matter if he resides in Prague or Peterborough.
Last month I was in Germany, I paid local tax in the hotel, local tax on everything I bought...that pays for their public services. Now where's me voting form. But I wont fill it in of course.
That’s a duty though and millions of tourists pay duties all over the world everyday. I’m talking about income tax.
Its tax
But Germans pay duties on our products and services when they visit here in the same way you do there. One another cancel each other out
I’m talking about Prague physically paying into our system through income tax
I can’t see how you can deny him (he’s also still retaining British citizenship) a vote
No, and it isn't just current income tax. I have spent a lifetime paying into the state pension system. Doesn't that count for something? I've got my family back in Eltham. My Mum passed away, graciously sparing us more than a passing brush with the chaos of the U.K. elderly care system, not to mention the associated strain on the NHS. Don't I get a say in what to do about that? What about my sisters kids and the Uni fees which I have had to help pay for? Don't. I get a say in that.?
There are of course Brits who really do leave. My best mate from Portsmouth Poly left for Australia in 1981, never came back, and is an Oz citizen now. He made his choice. Its a big choice. He hasn't been to see Pompey more than twice since then.
Quite obviously I haven't made that kind of move. Apart from all the things I've listed above, I am physically not far away. I mentioned Aberdeen because several of my best mates come from there, although they are all settled in London and the south. And here is the thing. Care to guess how much difference in flying time there is London -Aberdeen vs London - Prague? On average, 10 minutes. Ten fucking minutes. And on a day when a strong westerly is sweeping across the continent, probably no difference at all.
So Chippy my dear friend, when you say I don't have the same right as you to vote and have a say in the direction of my country, I say go fuck yourself it's my country as much as it is yours.
Not very nice that last bit. I lived in Scotland in the 80's for 6 years and still hold a minor interest there. i was not asked to vote in their referendum and neither should I...It's the same thing. Reply as much as you like but everyone knows where i stand and i will not move my stance.
It wasn't nice, was it? I don't think your stance is very nice either, in fact it makes me furious but to be fair it isn't just you. My own brother thinks that way about it, and my situation. Bangs on about "commitment to the country" with the implication that I don't show it. Well I won't drag the family argument on to here except to say that I recently realised that I pay as much income tax as he does due to his "commitment" to his work as a radiographer. He has a lot of holiday.
His attitude, and yours, and that of a few million like you, to people in my situation is part of the "nationalist spasm" as Adonis so rightly termed it. My buddy is half Swede half German. He is a citizen of both countries, as long as he lives. In both cases, he has the same voting rights at national level as any other citizen. Since I have known him (20 plus years) he has never lived in Germany nor paid any income or social taxes there. Nor in this time has his main income been taxed in Sweden. I've discussed this a few times with him, he says it is a totally uncontroversial matter in both countries. You're a citizen, you get a vote. We might conclude that these two countries are simply more self-confident about their democracy than the UK apparently is.
Your 6 years in Scotland misses the point. I have lived 24 years in CZ, but I am not - yet- a citizen, so I don't get a vote in the upcoming Presidential election. That is basically an issue of my insufficient "commitment" up to now to CZ. I'm Ok with that. We are talking about what it means to be a UK citizen, and how it is possible to be one, but not to be able to exercise the most basic right of a citizen, simply because I spend most of my time in a place with roughly the same flying time from London as Aberdeen. It's a pathetic, insular national attitude, and I will do all I can to fight it.
This is a really interesting debate and could do without the personal stuff. I guess there has to be a line for when you can and shouldn't be able to vote, but I can't work out where it is.
Take my neighbour for example, she's of Armenian parentage, was born is Iran and grew up in Spain, she's a Spanish citizen and lived in the UK 20+ years, she's married to an Englishman and has two kids. She's a school teacher and pays her tax in the UK. She can vote in local but not national elections. I don't think she can vote in Spanish elections.
Not an uncommon situation for the modern world. But she can't vote for a government that has a lot of influence in her career, and couldn't vote in the brexit referendum. She didn't want to get UK citizenship before, and certainly doesn't want it now. Her choice and she understands the situation. Is that right though?
Should it be residents or citizens who can vote, and in which elections? Should be be resident and a citizen? One or both? Should you be able to vote in national elections in more than one country? if it directly impacts your life it's hard to argue not.
Not sure where I stand, I see both sides of the argument here.
Surely the key test in national elections is citizenship? What on earth is citizenship for in a democracy , if you cannot vote in the primary election about the direction of that democracy?
Local elections are residency based because it is argued that you are affected as a resident by decisions taken at a local level. Seems about right to me. And the allowed choice about where you vote for an MEP is a symbol of what the EU is about.
Your neighbour has taken the same attitude to UK citizenship as I have to CZ citizenship. That's also OK, surely? If I want to become a CZ citizen I will have to undergo and pass a pretty tough citizenship test, and pay a non refundable £250 to take it. I think the setup is very similar in the UK.
So that leaves the UK policy of lapsing the voting rights of its citizens whose main place of residence has not been in the UK for 15 years. I cannot claim to have checked this 100% but I think this denial of basic right is unique among the current EU 28. What is its purpose, why is it a good thing? How does it fit the other old self-image of the UK of a global colossus whose citizens go round the world leading the way in teaching backward countries basics of democracy and the advantages of electrical systems with 3 pin plugs?
This is a really interesting debate and could do without the personal stuff. I guess there has to be a line for when you can and shouldn't be able to vote, but I can't work out where it is.
Take my neighbour for example, she's of Armenian parentage, was born is Iran and grew up in Spain, she's a Spanish citizen and lived in the UK 20+ years, she's married to an Englishman and has two kids. She's a school teacher and pays her tax in the UK. She can vote in local but not national elections. I don't think she can vote in Spanish elections.
Not an uncommon situation for the modern world. But she can't vote for a government that has a lot of influence in her career, and couldn't vote in the brexit referendum. She didn't want to get UK citizenship before, and certainly doesn't want it now. Her choice and she understands the situation. Is that right though?
Should it be residents or citizens who can vote, and in which elections? Should be be resident and a citizen? One or both? Should you be able to vote in national elections in more than one country? if it directly impacts your life it's hard to argue not.
Not sure where I stand, I see both sides of the argument here.
I think it's right that only 'residents' should be able to vote in local elections, as if you live outside of the UK what or where is 'local' in the UK?
But if you are a UK Citizen you should be able to vote in national elections regardless of where you live, but be interested (for my mate in Sweden) how @PragueAddick can still vote in UK General elections if you've not been a resident for 24 years, is it you just have to keep renewing every year? (I suspect he hasn't bothered as he's only been back twice to bury his mother and father). From what I've read it seems to expire at 15 years regardless?
Chippy's stance is the equivalent of denying the vote to any British government or armed forces personnel who are deployed overseas for a substantial length of time.
Indeed, but whadya know, they are exempted from the rule. So if you spend time abroad implementing the government's bidding, you can vote, but if you spend time doing stuff they cannot control, you lose the vote. Doesn't sound like a mature democracy to me. Sounds a bit authoritarian.
Thanks for the replies. The current situation seems fair enough. I've been out of the country for a year and voted by proxy, though hasn't been "resident" anywhere for more than a week.
I don't have a problem with the 15 year thing either
Thanks for the replies. The current situation seems fair enough. I've been out of the country for a year and voted by proxy, though hasn't been "resident" anywhere for more than a week.
I don't have a problem with the 15 year thing either
Well that's nice. Would you care to explain why I should be denied it, based on the detailed explanation of my circumstances? And why does the UK uniquely need such a rule? What kind of danger does it ward off, that Germany or Sweden are not worried about?
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
I have no qualms with the 15 year cut off but if what Prague says is true and there is no similar cut-off in comparable countries then I cannot think of any good argument why a cut off should exist beyond 'well if they don't live here why should they get the vote'. And I'm not really convinced that's a good argument anyway.
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
This is a really interesting debate and could do without the personal stuff. I guess there has to be a line for when you can and shouldn't be able to vote, but I can't work out where it is.
Take my neighbour for example, she's of Armenian parentage, was born is Iran and grew up in Spain, she's a Spanish citizen and lived in the UK 20+ years, she's married to an Englishman and has two kids. She's a school teacher and pays her tax in the UK. She can vote in local but not national elections. I don't think she can vote in Spanish elections.
Not an uncommon situation for the modern world. But she can't vote for a government that has a lot of influence in her career, and couldn't vote in the brexit referendum. She didn't want to get UK citizenship before, and certainly doesn't want it now. Her choice and she understands the situation. Is that right though?
Should it be residents or citizens who can vote, and in which elections? Should be be resident and a citizen? One or both? Should you be able to vote in national elections in more than one country? if it directly impacts your life it's hard to argue not.
Not sure where I stand, I see both sides of the argument here.
Along similar lines, someone imprisonesd under a law made by UK politicians cannot vote to remove those politicians and get a law changed while in jail. Catch 22. Maybe not so relevant these days but thinking about the homosexuality laws of the 60”s or the decriminalisation of TV licence evasion as a couple of examples.
@Rob7Lee I will reply to you privately. There is a "workaround" but in the face of this example of "nationalist spasm" on here, I am fecked if I am going to put it in the public domain.
Am I the only person who thinks that formal nationality (which I see as different to ones cultural and personal background) is pure and simple an accident of birth? People talk of our or my country, we this and us that and them the other, I don't get it. I was born in Kent but this is not 'my' country in many many senses. For a start I personally cannot identify with Tories the ruling class, or the fabled 52% who voted Brexit. I am technically obliged to contribute to my surroundings in terms of tax and national insurance, obeying the law and being a decent citizen but these are obligations that I see as necessary for society rather than necessary for being any particular nationality. Those who purport to speak for me, like Farage after Brexit talking of stuff like 'getting our country back' to an extent are stealing from the likes of me. Nigel Farages country as he wishes to define it will never be my country, indeed here I am, Kent born, who does not see the UK or Britain as a whole as 'my' country. Weirdly I used to go along with a sense of nationality, but the Brexit vote suddenly brought those half formed concepts into stark focus and I realise this geographical place 'belongs' to the 52% of the winners and I am now obliged to watch on as a stranger in stunned amazement, just as I am obliged to pay my taxes to those I see as alien to me who hold power. For those who write about 'us', 'we' and 'our' country, they may want to pause and reflect that they don't automatically speak for everybody. Accident of birth.
@Rob7Lee I will reply to you privately. There is a "workaround" but in the face of this example of "nationalist spasm" on here, I am fecked if I am going to put it in the public domain.
Prague, would you be able to PM me this as well please? Genuinely very interested. My sister lives outside the EU and has a workaround, would be good to hear if it's similar.
So that leaves the UK policy of lapsing the voting rights of its citizens whose main place of residence has not been in the UK for 15 years. I cannot claim to have checked this 100% but I think this denial of basic right is unique among the current EU 28.
Don't know about the rest of the EU28, but Ireland is tougher. The minute an Irish citizen moves to another country, they lose their right to vote.
@Rob7Lee I will reply to you privately. There is a "workaround" but in the face of this example of "nationalist spasm" on here, I am fecked if I am going to put it in the public domain.
Prague, would you be able to PM me this as well please? Genuinely very interested. My sister lives outside the EU and has a workaround, would be good to hear if it's similar.
Hmm. You, eh? :-)
Well, OK. I will do that and trust that the fabled Charlton family attitude towards "grassing" prevails. :-)
Well on one condition. You state on the thread that you too agree that the 15 year limit has no merit....
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
@Rob7Lee I will reply to you privately. There is a "workaround" but in the face of this example of "nationalist spasm" on here, I am fecked if I am going to put it in the public domain.
Prague, would you be able to PM me this as well please? Genuinely very interested. My sister lives outside the EU and has a workaround, would be good to hear if it's similar.
Hmm. You, eh? :-)
Well, OK. I will do that and trust that the fabled Charlton family attitude towards "grassing" prevails. :-)
Well on one condition. You state on the thread that you too agree that the 15 year limit has no merit....
:-)
Grassing is one thing, but bribery!?!
In all seriousness, I don't believe it does no. If you have UK citizenship that's good enough for me. I don't see why you shouldn't be entitled to vote given that you could move back at any point.
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
Depending on what way she voted in the referendum, Red in SE8 might have some choice words....
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
My apologies, didn't know that. Doesn't affect my point though.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
My apologies, didn't know that. Doesn't affect my point though.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
That's OK. But do have a bash at answering my question. What does it mean to you to be a "citizen"? What rights should it confer, and what responsibilities should the person assume if he or she takes "citizenship" seriously? Where is the balance?
Australia and Belgium, to name two, have made voting a legal duty of citizenship, just to throw in a thought on that...
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
My apologies, didn't know that. Doesn't affect my point though.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
That's OK. But do have a bash at answering my question. What does it mean to you to be a "citizen"? What rights should it confer, and what responsibilities should the person assume if he or she takes "citizenship" seriously? Where is the balance?
Australia and Belgium, to name two, have made voting a legal duty of citizenship, just to throw in a thought on that...
I agree largely with what Seth said above about nationality being an accident of birth. I'm not patriotic in the slightest (which I realise makes me in the minority) so citizenship for me is wherever you chose to leave your hat. Just pick one that's all.
I agree that you should have responsibilities as a citizen of that country, and I agree with mandatory voting, albeit with a none of the above option.
Comments
I may be wrong but I think my sons Czech girlfriend can vote in the local uk elections but not the other two in the Uk. Will ask when she returns from Prague in a few days.
Having just looked it up;
"British citizens living abroad can vote in UK Parliamentary and European Parliamentary elections but cannot vote in local elections or elections to devolved bodies such as the Scottish Parliament, National Assembly for Wales or Greater London Authority.
British citizens living abroad for more than 15 years are not eligible to register to vote in UK elections."
Looking forward to hearing more about the carp, btw, but not on this thread :-)
https://theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/31/ministers-consider-using-volunteers-to-guard-uk-borders
Can't the £350m be used to pay for a proper border force as well as all the 100's of other uses it's allegedly going to be put to?
Not being allowed to vote if you live abroad is quite an old fashioned concept but is also illogical if you consider people serving in the armed forces, working for the British government or even British companies abroad. You don't stop becoming a citizen of a country because of your personal situation, or stop becoming involved in many aspect of the country. I found it extremely offensive to be called a 'coward' on here for living abroad but now I can see that it is actually just a really antiquated way to see the modern world. You don't stop becoming proud of your country and deeply invested in it if you are away from it.
His attitude, and yours, and that of a few million like you, to people in my situation is part of the "nationalist spasm" as Adonis so rightly termed it. My buddy is half Swede half German. He is a citizen of both countries, as long as he lives. In both cases, he has the same voting rights at national level as any other citizen. Since I have known him (20 plus years) he has never lived in Germany nor paid any income or social taxes there. Nor in this time has his main income been taxed in Sweden. I've discussed this a few times with him, he says it is a totally uncontroversial matter in both countries. You're a citizen, you get a vote. We might conclude that these two countries are simply more self-confident about their democracy than the UK apparently is.
Your 6 years in Scotland misses the point. I have lived 24 years in CZ, but I am not - yet- a citizen, so I don't get a vote in the upcoming Presidential election. That is basically an issue of my insufficient "commitment" up to now to CZ. I'm Ok with that. We are talking about what it means to be a UK citizen, and how it is possible to be one, but not to be able to exercise the most basic right of a citizen, simply because I spend most of my time in a place with roughly the same flying time from London as Aberdeen. It's a pathetic, insular national attitude, and I will do all I can to fight it.
Take my neighbour for example, she's of Armenian parentage, was born is Iran and grew up in Spain, she's a Spanish citizen and lived in the UK 20+ years, she's married to an Englishman and has two kids. She's a school teacher and pays her tax in the UK. She can vote in local but not national elections. I don't think she can vote in Spanish elections.
Not an uncommon situation for the modern world. But she can't vote for a government that has a lot of influence in her career, and couldn't vote in the brexit referendum. She didn't want to get UK citizenship before, and certainly doesn't want it now. Her choice and she understands the situation. Is that right though?
Should it be residents or citizens who can vote, and in which elections? Should be be resident and a citizen? One or both? Should you be able to vote in national elections in more than one country? if it directly impacts your life it's hard to argue not.
Not sure where I stand, I see both sides of the argument here.
Surely the key test in national elections is citizenship? What on earth is citizenship for in a democracy , if you cannot vote in the primary election about the direction of that democracy?
Local elections are residency based because it is argued that you are affected as a resident by decisions taken at a local level. Seems about right to me. And the allowed choice about where you vote for an MEP is a symbol of what the EU is about.
Your neighbour has taken the same attitude to UK citizenship as I have to CZ citizenship. That's also OK, surely? If I want to become a CZ citizen I will have to undergo and pass a pretty tough citizenship test, and pay a non refundable £250 to take it. I think the setup is very similar in the UK.
So that leaves the UK policy of lapsing the voting rights of its citizens whose main place of residence has not been in the UK for 15 years. I cannot claim to have checked this 100% but I think this denial of basic right is unique among the current EU 28. What is its purpose, why is it a good thing? How does it fit the other old self-image of the UK of a global colossus whose citizens go round the world leading the way in teaching backward countries basics of democracy and the advantages of electrical systems with 3 pin plugs?
But if you are a UK Citizen you should be able to vote in national elections regardless of where you live, but be interested (for my mate in Sweden) how @PragueAddick can still vote in UK General elections if you've not been a resident for 24 years, is it you just have to keep renewing every year? (I suspect he hasn't bothered as he's only been back twice to bury his mother and father). From what I've read it seems to expire at 15 years regardless?
Indeed, but whadya know, they are exempted from the rule. So if you spend time abroad implementing the government's bidding, you can vote, but if you spend time doing stuff they cannot control, you lose the vote. Doesn't sound like a mature democracy to me. Sounds a bit authoritarian.
I don't have a problem with the 15 year thing either
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Catch 22.
Maybe not so relevant these days but thinking about the homosexuality laws of the 60”s or the decriminalisation of TV licence evasion as a couple of examples.
People talk of our or my country, we this and us that and them the other, I don't get it. I was born in Kent but this is not 'my' country in many many senses. For a start I personally cannot identify with Tories the ruling class, or the fabled 52% who voted Brexit. I am technically obliged to contribute to my surroundings in terms of tax and national insurance, obeying the law and being a decent citizen but these are obligations that I see as necessary for society rather than necessary for being any particular nationality.
Those who purport to speak for me, like Farage after Brexit talking of stuff like 'getting our country back' to an extent are stealing from the likes of me. Nigel Farages country as he wishes to define it will never be my country, indeed here I am, Kent born, who does not see the UK or Britain as a whole as 'my' country.
Weirdly I used to go along with a sense of nationality, but the Brexit vote suddenly brought those half formed concepts into stark focus and I realise this geographical place 'belongs' to the 52% of the winners and I am now obliged to watch on as a stranger in stunned amazement, just as I am obliged to pay my taxes to those I see as alien to me who hold power.
For those who write about 'us', 'we' and 'our' country, they may want to pause and reflect that they don't automatically speak for everybody.
Accident of birth.
Well, OK. I will do that and trust that the fabled Charlton family attitude towards "grassing" prevails. :-)
Well on one condition. You state on the thread that you too agree that the 15 year limit has no merit....
:-)
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
In all seriousness, I don't believe it does no. If you have UK citizenship that's good enough for me. I don't see why you shouldn't be entitled to vote given that you could move back at any point.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
Australia and Belgium, to name two, have made voting a legal duty of citizenship, just to throw in a thought on that...
I agree that you should have responsibilities as a citizen of that country, and I agree with mandatory voting, albeit with a none of the above option.