Other responsibilities should of course mean following the law! As for integration and changing your culture (should you change country) well, have a stab at the language I guess.
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
My apologies, didn't know that. Doesn't affect my point though.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
That's OK. But do have a bash at answering my question. What does it mean to you to be a "citizen"? What rights should it confer, and what responsibilities should the person assume if he or she takes "citizenship" seriously? Where is the balance?
Australia and Belgium, to name two, have made voting a legal duty of citizenship, just to throw in a thought on that...
Christ, no! We've got enough trouble allowing people to vote when they are ill-informed (no I'm not calling anyone stupid, before someone has a hissy fit), let alone forcing the disinterested to join the party. Compulsory voting is the height of moralistic senselessness, just watering down the opinions of those who are keen enough to think things through.
So that leaves the UK policy of lapsing the voting rights of its citizens whose main place of residence has not been in the UK for 15 years. I cannot claim to have checked this 100% but I think this denial of basic right is unique among the current EU 28.
Don't know about the rest of the EU28, but Ireland is tougher. The minute an Irish citizen moves to another country, they lose their right to vote.
Mostly, but not entirely, true at the moment, but there is a growing sense that the Irish diaspora should have a specific representation.
As a graduate of the national University of Ireland (UCD in my case) I can vote for representation in the Seanad, without having to be resident in Ireland.
And I might refer you to the equal marriage referendum, where it is clear that significant numbers of Irish emigrants went home to vote, often after years of residence abroad (but it would seem that that is down to people still considering themselves ordinarily resident in Ireland, even while making their lives abroad, rather than anything else).
Chippy's stance is the equivalent of denying the vote to any British government or armed forces personnel who are deployed overseas for a substantial length of time.
No it isn't don't be so stupid. Its about people who have moved abroad and the residential/primary address is overseas. Ex pats like prisoners should not be allowed to vote (in my view) as it may effect people in the country they don't live anymore. It was ludicrous when it was brought in, in the first place. Crude tory ploy.
Chippy's stance is the equivalent of denying the vote to any British government or armed forces personnel who are deployed overseas for a substantial length of time.
No it isn't don't be so stupid. Its about people who have moved abroad and the residential/primary address is overseas. Ex pats like prisoners should not be allowed to vote (in my view) as it may effect people in the country they don't live anymore. It was ludicrous when it was brought in, in the first place. Crude tory ploy.
I know people who for all intents and purposes have moved to Germany, Cyprus and New Zealand for several years, making it effectively their home and raising families there. They are for all intents and purposes ex-pats, working for the Crown. Just because Prague owns his own business but pays his taxes to the UK whereas one of my contacts works for the UK government (I have no idea where they pay taxes) one should get the vote and the other shouldn't?
Obviously irony isn't your thing but the answer to your question is pretty simple. I married a Czech citizen in 1997. This gave me as a foreigner a lot of rights. Admittedly i had already set up my business by then, but it is one step up from self employment, i.e minimal capital investment. The fact is that had I not been from the gilded "West" but instead from, say, Turkey, I would have found all kinds of bureaucratic obstacles placed in my way at the time. When it came to buying property, I made sure that EU accession was all but done, before I went for it.
More importantly the country opened the accession process very quickly. Many would have much rather completed that first before joining up to NATO, but that's a side issue. The accession process affected every aspect of Czech life, and largely in a positive way. It enabled progressive politicians to carry the fight to those who wished to continue in the old ways of corruption, cronyism and excessive bureaucracy. The fight still isn't over, and we are now seeing a pushback because inevitably not everyone has felt the benefits (or more correctly they believe a lot of other people mainly in Prague, a "liberal metro elite" of course, have benefited more than they have). But it was because the fight was obviously being won, and the Czechs never really faltered on the way to accession, that the big British businesses- Tesco, Debenhams, Next and M&S - invested. M&S is an interesting case because it was initially an affiliate arrangement, only coming into full ownership several years after accession. I am worried that Brexit might put an end to their presence, certainly they seem to have put on hold their expansion plans.
In 2019, by the way, I shall have a Czech passport, while retaining the British one. I still have my dark dark blue one, as a travel souvenir. I never cared about the colour. I was rather more "inspired" by the text on the inside front cover - which is still in the current one. You know, "Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State requests and requires..." etc. Of course years of seeing British citizens left in the lurch around the world made me realise that it's all a load of bollocks, whatever colour the cover is.
Why if your so committed to the paradise land of the EU would you want to have one foot in a land full of dimwit, thick, racist nazis.
Well, son, I guess that one benefit of getting older is you learn to take the long view.
Giving up my UK citizenship wont look so smart when the nightmare is over and Charlton head back to the sunlit uplands ( copyright, your new leader) only for me to have my visitor visa refused by the Rees-Mug govt on the grounds that my past postings on CL made me a danger to national security.
Or, more likely, I would feel pretty silly if I gave it up only for the 2nd referendum to be called as the polls show a consistent 60-40 Remain score.
The long game, Chips, the long game...
In other words..... Just in case it goes belly up in paradise land, and the uk doesn't implode as you predict. You may need to wish to come back. Wear dark glasses when you do.... Me old son.
You write as if you think I "left" the U.K. because of Brexit. Well I haven't ever "left." I remain a British citizen, pay UK income tax, have earned the right to a UK State pension, average 5-6 live Charlton games a season. I am happy to remain a British citizen because there are still things about Britain I am proud to associate with. So when I am next over, come and have a good Kentish beer with me in the Long Pond. I will be the one in the blue " Don't blame me, I voted Remain" T-shirt, dark glasses go well with it.
I offered you a chance of a beer on the concourse of the east stand...you never took me up on it.
That could only have been because:
1. I wasn't planning to be at a game you proposed
2. I am one of those who, while not boycotting, seek to minimise my payments to the regime.
We also had the small misunderstanding about your proposed visit to Prague and the opportunity to meet Mad Vincent. You understood him to play an aggressive role in deterring visitors I consider undesirable, whereas his role is purely defensive in protecting me from undesirables. Of course you are not in that bracket, Chips old chap, you are Family. BTW Mad Vincent is now in Brazil for New Year as a guest of @ElfsborgAddick . This is how the international Charlton tribe grows and develops, thanks to open borders and open minds.
Bit of an aside about the current very interesting debate about Citizenship. About a year ago Guy Vernhofstadt (bloke who looks like David Mellor) the E.U. parliament chief negotiator said he had received thousands of emails/letters from U.K. citizens who were unhappy with Brexit. He stated that he would seek an arrangement where those U.K. citizens who wished, could apply for an E.U. passport/Visa that would allow them to vote and travel freely in the E.U.
I see. Well another time then. I should be over early Feb on Olympic Stadium duty, haven't checked the CAFC calendar yet.
Also, Chips I wanted to ask you this academic question. If I had moved my permanent address in 1993 not to Prague, but to Aberdeen, and I lived there now, and made a big thing about Scotland's pro-EU outlook, would you be saying the same thing about me, wanting the chance to return when it all goes pear-shaped in Scotland? What would be the difference about my decision to relocate, Prague vs Aberdeen. OK obviously Aberdeen is currently part of the UK, but who knows for how long?
No I wouldn't as Scotland is part of the UK. and will always remain so. The jocks despite what some people think don't have the stomache for another referendum. Most have accepted it.
I have always had strong beliefs that people who don't reside in the UK should not have any influence or say on what happens in the UK by means of their vote. I cant vote in any other country and neither should I and if I could I wouldn't on that principle.
But Prague pays UK income tax. He pays into our public services. For me it’s as simple as that. It doesn’t matter if he resides in Prague or Peterborough.
Last month I was in Germany, I paid local tax in the hotel, local tax on everything I bought...that pays for their public services. Now where's me voting form. But I wont fill it in of course.
That’s a duty though and millions of tourists pay duties all over the world everyday. I’m talking about income tax.
Its tax
But Germans pay duties on our products and services when they visit here in the same way you do there. One another cancel each other out
I’m talking about Prague physically paying into our system through income tax
I can’t see how you can deny him (he’s also still retaining British citizenship) a vote
No, and it isn't just current income tax. I have spent a lifetime paying into the state pension system. Doesn't that count for something? I've got my family back in Eltham. My Mum passed away, graciously sparing us more than a passing brush with the chaos of the U.K. elderly care system, not to mention the associated strain on the NHS. Don't I get a say in what to do about that? What about my sisters kids and the Uni fees which I have had to help pay for? Don't. I get a say in that.?
There are of course Brits who really do leave. My best mate from Portsmouth Poly left for Australia in 1981, never came back, and is an Oz citizen now. He made his choice. Its a big choice. He hasn't been to see Pompey more than twice since then.
Quite obviously I haven't made that kind of move. Apart from all the things I've listed above, I am physically not far away. I mentioned Aberdeen because several of my best mates come from there, although they are all settled in London and the south. And here is the thing. Care to guess how much difference in flying time there is London -Aberdeen vs London - Prague? On average, 10 minutes. Ten fucking minutes. And on a day when a strong westerly is sweeping across the continent, probably no difference at all.
So Chippy my dear friend, when you say I don't have the same right as you to vote and have a say in the direction of my country, I say go fuck yourself it's my country as much as it is yours.
Out of interest @PragueAddick are you eligible to vote in all three tiers of Uk and Czech democracy e.g. General local and Mep.
I may be wrong but I think my sons Czech girlfriend can vote in the local uk elections but not the other two in the Uk. Will ask when she returns from Prague in a few days.
With the MEP, it is a matter of choice, i.e. she can elect to cast her vote either in the UK or CZ. She would fill out a form in the UK if she wished to cast her vote there. If she has tried that over there and been rebuffed, i would be interested to get the details, but to be fair I doubt it. Generally I find people who work in the electoral system to be right on top of their game, and very pleasant and helpful with it. That's true here in CZ too, and the last part of that is unusual in the State machine here. I think that people find the implementation of democracy to be inspiring work.
Looking forward to hearing more about the carp, btw, but not on this thread :-)
Whilst I appreciate your reply I don't think you have answered the question.
I presume the position is:-
You can and choose to Vote in the uk general elections as you pay tax here but are not eligible to vote in the Czech equivalent as you haven't adopted Czech citizenship
You can vote in Czech local elections but not Uk
As an Eu citizen you can vote in either uk or Czech but not both re your Mep.
To get your goat up I don't think your National Insurance contributions wherever you have worked and paid them should have anything to do with voting.
When you record a film and they put a bloody news break in the middle and you only get the 1st half of it as the sky box recognises it as a separate programme.
When you post comments about things that annoy you on the EU thread. Doh!
An interesting if depressing view of what's going on in Whitehall from Andrew Adonis in today's Observer. Brexit and trains in one article...what could get the average Lifers juices flowing more?
"...Good government has essentially broken down in the face of Brexit. Normal standards of conduct are not being observed. Independent advice is being dismissed because, remember, experts were supposedly part of the problem.
“There is very low morale in Whitehall because almost no civil servants agree with the policy of the government. I do not think there has ever been a period when the civil service has been more disaffected with the government it serves. I do not know a single senior civil servant who thinks that Brexit is the right policy, and those that are responsible for negotiating it are in a desperate and constant argument with the government over the need to minimise the damage done by the prime minister’s hard-Brexit stance..."
And he says it, "...is an open secret that no one will go and work in David Davis’s department [DexEU], and Liam Fox is regarded as a semi-lunatic. The only departments that have retained their institutional integrity during this crisis are the Foreign Office and the Treasury, but they have been sidelined in the Brexit negotiations which is a huge mistake because that is where most of the brains and ability in Whitehall is located."
Out of interest @PragueAddick are you eligible to vote in all three tiers of Uk and Czech democracy e.g. General local and Mep.
I may be wrong but I think my sons Czech girlfriend can vote in the local uk elections but not the other two in the Uk. Will ask when she returns from Prague in a few days.
With the MEP, it is a matter of choice, i.e. she can elect to cast her vote either in the UK or CZ. She would fill out a form in the UK if she wished to cast her vote there. If she has tried that over there and been rebuffed, i would be interested to get the details, but to be fair I doubt it. Generally I find people who work in the electoral system to be right on top of their game, and very pleasant and helpful with it. That's true here in CZ too, and the last part of that is unusual in the State machine here. I think that people find the implementation of democracy to be inspiring work.
Looking forward to hearing more about the carp, btw, but not on this thread :-)
Whilst I appreciate your reply I don't think you have answered the question.
I presume the position is:-
You can and choose to Vote in the uk general elections as you pay tax here but are not eligible to vote in the Czech equivalent as you haven't adopted Czech citizenship
You can vote in Czech local elections but not Uk
As an Eu citizen you can vote in either uk or Czech but not both re your Mep.
To get your goat up I don't think your National Insurance contributions wherever you have worked and paid them should have anything to do with voting.
And you have not understood my answer :-)
the right to a vote is not governed at all by whether or not you pay tax. My point on tax is that I pay as much in to the country's coffers as a lot of people who are UK resident, so it seems to me one reason why I have something legitimate to say about the direction of the country. Re NI payments and pensions, I have fully paid up, latterly voluntarily. I was sufficiently "committed" to do that. Pensions are often a hot topic at election time, so why shouldn't I have my say? I've paid the same as you.
I thought your question was about the MEP vote, and what I wrote is indeed your understanding. The citizen decided which of the two countries he or she will vote in the MEP election, and fills in a form to confirm that choice. So your son's girlfriend has the right to cast her vote in the UK if she wishes, or she can vote on the Czech side. One practical problem I now recall for her is that the Czechs don't currently allow postal voting.
Surely an extension of the argument that British citizens abroad can't vote would be that people who are not British citizens but who live and pay tax in the UK should be allowed to vote in elections there. Can't see the average Brexit voter being in favour of that though.
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
My apologies, didn't know that. Doesn't affect my point though.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
I think that people who live in the UK don't give much thought to this question, why should they, so it seems like a simple thing. But in fact the only really simple way is "you citizen, you can vote". You haven't explained what is the point of being a citizen if you don't have a vote. Neither, with this rule, has successive UK govts. In fact Cameron said he was going to abolish it, but was too lazy to get it done. Don't think it would have changed the referendum result, although it would have narrowed the margin a bit.
Your apparently simple solution of "you resident, you vote" is nowhere near as simple as it seems. Especially in today's world, which is exactly why it is a live issue for some of us. If the test is residence, OK, let's see what that brings us....
- Next door to my sister is a nice upwardly mobile Polish family. Currently can vote in the locals, but not the national. How can that stand if the test is residence? Surely they should have the national vote too? Ha, but if that were the rule, the referendum would deffo have ended up differently.
- What about the senior biz executive who works for one of these companies expected to benefit from all these trade deals that Liam Fox and Bojo think are going to put the Great back into Britain? Quite easily he could be asked to be Singapore based for three years. Under your system, while bringing home the revenue bacon for the people back home, he loses the right to vote. WTF?
- what about this geezer?. "Ashcroft holds dual British and Belizean nationality, and is a belonger of the Turks and Caicos Islands.". Yeah right. "The couple have homes in London, Maidenhead in Berkshire, and Belize." Yes exactly. Rich enough to make out that he passes your residency test, even though he mysteriously persuades HMRC that he is non domiciled for UK tax purposes. He has resisted journalists' attempts to clarify whether he has a UK vote, but no-one can deny that he has a somewhat larger influence on British politics than little old me and all the other vote-exiles put together could dream of. So he is able to vote because he can claim to live here, and no-one dares pin him down at the electoral office, whereas I cannot. Great. Under the normal rules of citizenship, he and I would both be able to vote here, and i would not begrudge him that right. Although I begrudge his "right" not to pay UK tax.
An interesting if depressing view of what's going on in Whitehall from Andrew Adonis in today's Observer. Brexit and trains in one article...what could get the average Lifers juices flowing more?
"...Good government has essentially broken down in the face of Brexit. Normal standards of conduct are not being observed. Independent advice is being dismissed because, remember, experts were supposedly part of the problem.
“There is very low morale in Whitehall because almost no civil servants agree with the policy of the government. I do not think there has ever been a period when the civil service has been more disaffected with the government it serves. I do not know a single senior civil servant who thinks that Brexit is the right policy, and those that are responsible for negotiating it are in a desperate and constant argument with the government over the need to minimise the damage done by the prime minister’s hard-Brexit stance..."
And he says it, "...is an open secret that no one will go and work in David Davis’s department [DexEU], and Liam Fox is regarded as a semi-lunatic. The only departments that have retained their institutional integrity during this crisis are the Foreign Office and the Treasury, but they have been sidelined in the Brexit negotiations which is a huge mistake because that is where most of the brains and ability in Whitehall is located."
Only a semi-lunatic?
Naturally senior civil servants will not agree with the policy of the government since their role is to run the country to the best of their ability and steer politicians towards sensible options. The hard brexiteer line is to blame everyone for the inevitable failure of Brexit - from the EU27 to the Irish to the Judges and Civil Servants. The question isn't who is right and wrong but who will win out in 2018?
As posted before, the balance of power is actually held by the Tory remainers. May either sticks to the script rolled out by the EU27 whilst looking like she is winging it or she bails. Any deviation back to her hard brexit lines from last January will surely tempt the 12 Remain Tories to back the line of Adonis and the centre ground.
An interesting if depressing view of what's going on in Whitehall from Andrew Adonis in today's Observer. Brexit and trains in one article...what could get the average Lifers juices flowing more?
"...Good government has essentially broken down in the face of Brexit. Normal standards of conduct are not being observed. Independent advice is being dismissed because, remember, experts were supposedly part of the problem.
“There is very low morale in Whitehall because almost no civil servants agree with the policy of the government. I do not think there has ever been a period when the civil service has been more disaffected with the government it serves. I do not know a single senior civil servant who thinks that Brexit is the right policy, and those that are responsible for negotiating it are in a desperate and constant argument with the government over the need to minimise the damage done by the prime minister’s hard-Brexit stance..."
And he says it, "...is an open secret that no one will go and work in David Davis’s department [DexEU], and Liam Fox is regarded as a semi-lunatic. The only departments that have retained their institutional integrity during this crisis are the Foreign Office and the Treasury, but they have been sidelined in the Brexit negotiations which is a huge mistake because that is where most of the brains and ability in Whitehall is located."
Only a semi-lunatic?
I recognise that description of this Government from a conversation in August with a relative who works at the very top of this government. What I was told in confidence quite shocked me.
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
My apologies, didn't know that. Doesn't affect my point though.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
I think that people who live in the UK don't give much thought to this question, why should they, so it seems like a simple thing. But in fact the only really simple way is "you citizen, you can vote". You haven't explained what is the point of being a citizen if you don't have a vote. Neither, with this rule, has successive UK govts. In fact Cameron said he was going to abolish it, but was too lazy to get it done. Don't think it would have changed the referendum result, although it would have narrowed the margin a bit.
Your apparently simple solution of "you resident, you vote" is nowhere near as simple as it seems. Especially in today's world, which is exactly why it is a live issue for some of us. If the test is residence, OK, let's see what that brings us....
- Next door to my sister is a nice upwardly mobile Polish family. Currently can vote in the locals, but not the national. How can that stand if the test is residence? Surely they should have the national vote too? Ha, but if that were the rule, the referendum would deffo have ended up differently.
- What about the senior biz executive who works for one of these companies expected to benefit from all these trade deals that Liam Fox and Bojo think are going to put the Great back into Britain? Quite easily he could be asked to be Singapore based for three years. Under your system, while bringing home the revenue bacon for the people back home, he loses the right to vote. WTF?
- what about this geezer?. "Ashcroft holds dual British and Belizean nationality, and is a belonger of the Turks and Caicos Islands.". Yeah right. "The couple have homes in London, Maidenhead in Berkshire, and Belize." Yes exactly. Rich enough to make out that he passes your residency test, even though he mysteriously persuades HMRC that he is non domiciled for UK tax purposes. He has resisted journalists' attempts to clarify whether he has a UK vote, but no-one can deny that he has a somewhat larger influence on British politics than little old me and all the other vote-exiles put together could dream of. So he is able to vote because he can claim to live here, and no-one dares pin him down at the electoral office, whereas I cannot. Great. Under the normal rules of citizenship, he and I would both be able to vote here, and i would not begrudge him that right. Although I begrudge his "right" not to pay UK tax.
You're right, I haven't thought too much about it!
So do you think that you can elect to be a citizen somewhere, wherever that is, and always get to vote there, if even you have never lived there, or have not lived there for decades? Seems wrong to me. I said earlier that the 15 years seems about right and I stick to that... seems generous enough. I didn't mean in the post you quoted that your vote follows you round the world.
I actually think the Pole should get to vote. English people in Scotland were allowed to vote in the independence referendum, but Scottish people resident in England weren't. That for me is fair enough. Why? It affects their life where they live.
There are a lot of "what about?" Cases. I just don't think that paying into the system or having business interests is enough to secure a vote on its own. Donald trump pretty much falls into that category!
Personally I think Prague’s reasons are very legitimate and I can understand why he feels so passionate about his right to vote and those that question it. It’s a difficult one as there are others who may have moved on long ago and perhaps don’t put into or care so much what goes on over here.
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
My apologies, didn't know that. Doesn't affect my point though.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
I think that people who live in the UK don't give much thought to this question, why should they, so it seems like a simple thing. But in fact the only really simple way is "you citizen, you can vote". You haven't explained what is the point of being a citizen if you don't have a vote. Neither, with this rule, has successive UK govts. In fact Cameron said he was going to abolish it, but was too lazy to get it done. Don't think it would have changed the referendum result, although it would have narrowed the margin a bit.
Your apparently simple solution of "you resident, you vote" is nowhere near as simple as it seems. Especially in today's world, which is exactly why it is a live issue for some of us. If the test is residence, OK, let's see what that brings us....
- Next door to my sister is a nice upwardly mobile Polish family. Currently can vote in the locals, but not the national. How can that stand if the test is residence? Surely they should have the national vote too? Ha, but if that were the rule, the referendum would deffo have ended up differently.
- What about the senior biz executive who works for one of these companies expected to benefit from all these trade deals that Liam Fox and Bojo think are going to put the Great back into Britain? Quite easily he could be asked to be Singapore based for three years. Under your system, while bringing home the revenue bacon for the people back home, he loses the right to vote. WTF?
- what about this geezer?. "Ashcroft holds dual British and Belizean nationality, and is a belonger of the Turks and Caicos Islands.". Yeah right. "The couple have homes in London, Maidenhead in Berkshire, and Belize." Yes exactly. Rich enough to make out that he passes your residency test, even though he mysteriously persuades HMRC that he is non domiciled for UK tax purposes. He has resisted journalists' attempts to clarify whether he has a UK vote, but no-one can deny that he has a somewhat larger influence on British politics than little old me and all the other vote-exiles put together could dream of. So he is able to vote because he can claim to live here, and no-one dares pin him down at the electoral office, whereas I cannot. Great. Under the normal rules of citizenship, he and I would both be able to vote here, and i would not begrudge him that right. Although I begrudge his "right" not to pay UK tax.
You're right, I haven't thought too much about it!
So do you think that you can elect to be a citizen somewhere, wherever that is, and always get to vote there, if even you have never lived there, or have not lived there for decades? Seems wrong to me. I said earlier that the 15 years seems about right and I stick to that... seems generous enough. I didn't mean in the post you quoted that your vote follows you round the world.
I actually think the Pole should get to vote. English people in Scotland were allowed to vote in the independence referendum, but Scottish people resident in England weren't. That for me is fair enough. Why? It affects their life where they live.
Well, for most countries we might admire, such as Germany or Sweden, you have to pass strict citizenship laws. So you would have to live there for quite some years, speak the language to a certain level, wait for the green light to cross the road, etc.
I think that you might over-estimate how many people like me would exercise their eternal right to vote. I will check but I think my German/Swedish buddy doesnt vote in Germany because he feels he doesnt have a dog in the race there, whereas in Sweden he has lots; family, friends, some tax, property, regular visitor on both biz and personal, so the transport system is an issue. So he votes there. I think the majority of Brits who are away a long time just gradually get immersed in the new country, especially if it is outside Europe, such as Oz. But modern Europe has created a different kind of citizen, and actively so, one that doesn't think of borders in the same way. I guess I am one of them. Ironically also, I think if there is one single factor that has kept me closely emotionally bound to the UK, it is Charlton. And Charlton Life!
If you haven't lived here for over 15 years you don't, in my opinion, get to chose the government than controls the life of the people that do live here. That's irrespective of where you pay tax (thanks for the money, but don't want to encourage offshore tax avoidance now do we )
A one size fits all policy with so many different possible situations is not going to please everyone.
Ok so when you casually say "I don't live here", this is what really gets my goat. As I have already explained, I dont just pay tax, but I have a vested interest in the UK state pension, I took an active role in the issue of elderly care for my mother this year; I support my sister's two kids through Uni - and have to do that because of political decisions that have been taken in the UK. And I have spent the last 3 years fighting a politically inspired decision to gift the Olympic Stadium to West Ham, a decision which is to the detriment not just of us all on here who pay UK tax, but directly threatening to the football club we all are passionate about. And you say I don't get to vote, despite all that???
So tell me, what in your book does it actually mean to be a "citizen"?
Well, these are all activities that you have chosen to do. That doesn't buy you a vote. There would be untold corruption if you could influence a democratic process just because of stuff you felt like doing.
As for political decisions, these were made by a government voted in by people who are citizens and residents, and citizens who have lived away for up to 15 years. Your lifestyle doesn't trump that. Your mum and the kids at uni can all vote here presumably. Stop thinking it's all about you.
You might need to read more carefully. Prague lost his mum earlier this year.
My apologies, didn't know that. Doesn't affect my point though.
This isn't mean as a personal dig btw Prague, I respect you, most of your opinions, and the work you do, but the principle (as I see it) is that you have to live somewhere to vote there. But we live in a big world and any line drawn on who votes where isn't going to suit everyone. Let's face it, 15 years is still a long time
I think that people who live in the UK don't give much thought to this question, why should they, so it seems like a simple thing. But in fact the only really simple way is "you citizen, you can vote". You haven't explained what is the point of being a citizen if you don't have a vote. Neither, with this rule, has successive UK govts. In fact Cameron said he was going to abolish it, but was too lazy to get it done. Don't think it would have changed the referendum result, although it would have narrowed the margin a bit.
Your apparently simple solution of "you resident, you vote" is nowhere near as simple as it seems. Especially in today's world, which is exactly why it is a live issue for some of us. If the test is residence, OK, let's see what that brings us....
- Next door to my sister is a nice upwardly mobile Polish family. Currently can vote in the locals, but not the national. How can that stand if the test is residence? Surely they should have the national vote too? Ha, but if that were the rule, the referendum would deffo have ended up differently.
- What about the senior biz executive who works for one of these companies expected to benefit from all these trade deals that Liam Fox and Bojo think are going to put the Great back into Britain? Quite easily he could be asked to be Singapore based for three years. Under your system, while bringing home the revenue bacon for the people back home, he loses the right to vote. WTF?
- what about this geezer?. "Ashcroft holds dual British and Belizean nationality, and is a belonger of the Turks and Caicos Islands.". Yeah right. "The couple have homes in London, Maidenhead in Berkshire, and Belize." Yes exactly. Rich enough to make out that he passes your residency test, even though he mysteriously persuades HMRC that he is non domiciled for UK tax purposes. He has resisted journalists' attempts to clarify whether he has a UK vote, but no-one can deny that he has a somewhat larger influence on British politics than little old me and all the other vote-exiles put together could dream of. So he is able to vote because he can claim to live here, and no-one dares pin him down at the electoral office, whereas I cannot. Great. Under the normal rules of citizenship, he and I would both be able to vote here, and i would not begrudge him that right. Although I begrudge his "right" not to pay UK tax.
You're right, I haven't thought too much about it!
So do you think that you can elect to be a citizen somewhere, wherever that is, and always get to vote there, if even you have never lived there, or have not lived there for decades? Seems wrong to me. I said earlier that the 15 years seems about right and I stick to that... seems generous enough. I didn't mean in the post you quoted that your vote follows you round the world.
I actually think the Pole should get to vote. English people in Scotland were allowed to vote in the independence referendum, but Scottish people resident in England weren't. That for me is fair enough. Why? It affects their life where they live.
Well, for most countries we might admire, such as Germany or Sweden, you have to pass strict citizenship laws. So you would have to live there for quite some years, speak the language to a certain level, wait for the green light to cross the road, etc.
I think that you might over-estimate how many people like me would exercise their eternal right to vote. I will check but I think my German/Swedish buddy doesnt vote in Germany because he feels he doesnt have a dog in the race there, whereas in Sweden he has lots; family, friends, some tax, property, regular visitor on both biz and personal, so the transport system is an issue. So he votes there. I think the majority of Brits who are away a long time just gradually get immersed in the new country, especially if it is outside Europe, such as Oz. But modern Europe has created a different kind of citizen, and actively so, one that doesn't think of borders in the same way. I guess I am one of them. Ironically also, I think if there is one single factor that has kept me closely emotionally bound to the UK, it is Charlton. And Charlton Life!
I think you may be right. I think citizenship is as much a state of mind as anything else (well, and some official paperwork)
Personally I think Prague’s reasons are very legitimate and I can understand why he feels so passionate about his right to vote and those that question it. It’s a difficult one as there are others who may have moved on long ago and perhaps don’t put into or care so much what goes on over here.
Prague has probably put more in than most and I completely understand his argument and position. I just don't agree with all of it! Can't quite nail my reasoning, just that there in my view needs to be at least an element of residency before having a say in the government that people who actually live here have to suffer
Maybe 2018 will be know as 'The Great Year of Blame', where brexiters without a clue cast blame on anybody and everybody else for their own cluelessness.
I may be wrong but I get the impression Prague takes his right to vote very seriously and considers it carefully, an example a hell of a lot of British citizens would do well to follow. If he’s an example of the majority of expat voters, they’re ok by me.
People that are taken in by buses, buffoons and bigots are the voters I worry about.
Surely the criteria for voting in an election is whether you pay taxes in the country. So millions of 16/17 yo are being excluded together with non-nationals mentioned here.
Comments
As a graduate of the national University of Ireland (UCD in my case) I can vote for representation in the Seanad, without having to be resident in Ireland.
And I might refer you to the equal marriage referendum, where it is clear that significant numbers of Irish emigrants went home to vote, often after years of residence abroad (but it would seem that that is down to people still considering themselves ordinarily resident in Ireland, even while making their lives abroad, rather than anything else).
About a year ago Guy Vernhofstadt (bloke who looks like David Mellor) the E.U. parliament chief negotiator said he had received thousands of emails/letters from U.K. citizens who were unhappy with Brexit.
He stated that he would seek an arrangement where those U.K. citizens who wished, could apply for an E.U. passport/Visa that would allow them to vote and travel freely in the E.U.
I presume the position is:-
You can and choose to Vote in the uk general elections as you pay tax here but are not eligible to vote in the Czech equivalent as you haven't adopted Czech citizenship
You can vote in Czech local elections but not Uk
As an Eu citizen you can vote in either uk or Czech but not both re your Mep.
To get your goat up I don't think your National Insurance contributions wherever you have worked and paid them should have anything to do with voting.
https://theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/30/lord-adonis-resignation-brexit-policy-theresa-may-whitehall-morale-collapsed
"...Good government has essentially broken down in the face of Brexit. Normal standards of conduct are not being observed. Independent advice is being dismissed because, remember, experts were supposedly part of the problem.
“There is very low morale in Whitehall because almost no civil servants agree with the policy of the government. I do not think there has ever been a period when the civil service has been more disaffected with the government it serves. I do not know a single senior civil servant who thinks that Brexit is the right policy, and those that are responsible for negotiating it are in a desperate and constant argument with the government over the need to minimise the damage done by the prime minister’s hard-Brexit stance..."
And he says it, "...is an open secret that no one will go and work in David Davis’s department [DexEU], and Liam Fox is regarded as a semi-lunatic. The only departments that have retained their institutional integrity during this crisis are the Foreign Office and the Treasury, but they have been sidelined in the Brexit negotiations which is a huge mistake because that is where most of the brains and ability in Whitehall is located."
Only a semi-lunatic?
the right to a vote is not governed at all by whether or not you pay tax. My point on tax is that I pay as much in to the country's coffers as a lot of people who are UK resident, so it seems to me one reason why I have something legitimate to say about the direction of the country. Re NI payments and pensions, I have fully paid up, latterly voluntarily. I was sufficiently "committed" to do that. Pensions are often a hot topic at election time, so why shouldn't I have my say? I've paid the same as you.
I thought your question was about the MEP vote, and what I wrote is indeed your understanding. The citizen decided which of the two countries he or she will vote in the MEP election, and fills in a form to confirm that choice. So your son's girlfriend has the right to cast her vote in the UK if she wishes, or she can vote on the Czech side. One practical problem I now recall for her is that the Czechs don't currently allow postal voting.
Your apparently simple solution of "you resident, you vote" is nowhere near as simple as it seems. Especially in today's world, which is exactly why it is a live issue for some of us. If the test is residence, OK, let's see what that brings us....
- Next door to my sister is a nice upwardly mobile Polish family. Currently can vote in the locals, but not the national. How can that stand if the test is residence? Surely they should have the national vote too? Ha, but if that were the rule, the referendum would deffo have ended up differently.
- What about the senior biz executive who works for one of these companies expected to benefit from all these trade deals that Liam Fox and Bojo think are going to put the Great back into Britain? Quite easily he could be asked to be Singapore based for three years. Under your system, while bringing home the revenue bacon for the people back home, he loses the right to vote. WTF?
- what about this geezer?. "Ashcroft holds dual British and Belizean nationality, and is a belonger of the Turks and Caicos Islands.". Yeah right. "The couple have homes in London, Maidenhead in Berkshire, and Belize." Yes exactly. Rich enough to make out that he passes your residency test, even though he mysteriously persuades HMRC that he is non domiciled for UK tax purposes. He has resisted journalists' attempts to clarify whether he has a UK vote, but no-one can deny that he has a somewhat larger influence on British politics than little old me and all the other vote-exiles put together could dream of. So he is able to vote because he can claim to live here, and no-one dares pin him down at the electoral office, whereas I cannot. Great. Under the normal rules of citizenship, he and I would both be able to vote here, and i would not begrudge him that right. Although I begrudge his "right" not to pay UK tax.
As posted before, the balance of power is actually held by the Tory remainers. May either sticks to the script rolled out by the EU27 whilst looking like she is winging it or she bails. Any deviation back to her hard brexit lines from last January will surely tempt the 12 Remain Tories to back the line of Adonis and the centre ground.
What I was told in confidence quite shocked me.
So do you think that you can elect to be a citizen somewhere, wherever that is, and always get to vote there, if even you have never lived there, or have not lived there for decades? Seems wrong to me. I said earlier that the 15 years seems about right and I stick to that... seems generous enough. I didn't mean in the post you quoted that your vote follows you round the world.
I actually think the Pole should get to vote. English people in Scotland were allowed to vote in the independence referendum, but Scottish people resident in England weren't. That for me is fair enough. Why? It affects their life where they live.
I think that you might over-estimate how many people like me would exercise their eternal right to vote. I will check but I think my German/Swedish buddy doesnt vote in Germany because he feels he doesnt have a dog in the race there, whereas in Sweden he has lots; family, friends, some tax, property, regular visitor on both biz and personal, so the transport system is an issue. So he votes there. I think the majority of Brits who are away a long time just gradually get immersed in the new country, especially if it is outside Europe, such as Oz. But modern Europe has created a different kind of citizen, and actively so, one that doesn't think of borders in the same way. I guess I am one of them. Ironically also, I think if there is one single factor that has kept me closely emotionally bound to the UK, it is Charlton. And Charlton Life!
People that are taken in by buses, buffoons and bigots are the voters I worry about.
Fantastic stuff !