Refugees from Syria =\= immigrants, whether illegal or otherwise.
They are fleeing torture, enslavement and brutal death. We should take them with open arms. If we don't have the money or school places then tbh they really needed investment in the first place!
It's not about them wanting to come to the UK, they want to go anywhere safe whether it's Liverpool or Latvia. We can't just let Greece deal with it, we need to all shoulder this responsibility.
Football is sport. IMHO sport and politics should not mix.
This thread has turned into a debate with many positive and negative sides on both sides of the argument. However, the original question was about a banner.
Nonsense;
Jesse Owens Ali The Revolutions that brought down the USSR (particularly in Poland)
Only a fool would ignore the power of sport in bringing about political and social change.
Refugees from Syria =\= immigrants, whether illegal or otherwise.
They are fleeing torture, enslavement and brutal death. We should take them with open arms. If we don't have the money or school places then tbh they really needed investment in the first place!
It's not about them wanting to come to the UK, they want to go anywhere safe whether it's Liverpool or Latvia. We can't just let Greece deal with it, we need to all shoulder this responsibility.
The population of Britain in the 1930's was 15 million less than it is today. to the question raised by Rothko.
Take Somalians, so the people who come into Britain in the last 20 years, were just the persecuted not the Persecutors ?
Do you think the British authorities are discerning enough to tell the difference.
I'm not saying your hearts aren't in the right place, but that's why on charity nights on TV, People reach for their phones when multi millionaire celebs Plead for your money.
Refugees from Syria =\= immigrants, whether illegal or otherwise.
They are fleeing torture, enslavement and brutal death. We should take them with open arms. If we don't have the money or school places then tbh they really needed investment in the first place!
It's not about them wanting to come to the UK, they want to go anywhere safe whether it's Liverpool or Latvia. We can't just let Greece deal with it, we need to all shoulder this responsibility.
Liverpool ?
Well, I had to come up with a place more depressing than Eastern Europe to illustrate my point
More should be done and should have been done to have avoided the situation we find ourselves in. The world has slept walked into this and now its like sticking a plaster on a gapping wound. This is what happens when the rich nations have the " I'm all right jack and sod the rest of you" attitude. In the past 20 odd years we have fought 3 wars, bombed the crap out of Libya, done little and stuck our head in the sand over Syria. I would say we have collectively failed miserably. Our servicemen have been killed and maimed by the hundreds and so have countless men women and children in these countries. Now "we" as nation are shrugging our shoulders and getting the hump with people so desperate to leave their hole in the ground they are willing to jump into an inflatable beach toys, with their children, and cross the seas in them. Anyone who make to these shores deserves our help, god knows they seem to have a bit more lust for life than many indigenous beings in this country.
If the refugees are so desperate, why do they pass through safe countries to get to the UK?
The vast, vast, vast majority don't. Educate yourself.
Of course they do. You have to cross the whole of Europe to get to the UK.
We should take in more than we currently do, however.
Trust me "the vast, vast, vast majority" of refugees do not "pass through safe countries to get to the UK".
I'm not saying your wrong, but it would help if you quoted a source.
Apologies, I thought it was common knowledge - I'm astonished that it isn't.
Total number of refugees worldwide = 10.5m Refugees in the UK = 193,500
Hopefully that clarifies that I was spot on in saying "me "the vast, vast, vast majority" of refugees do not "pass through safe countries to get to the UK""
Football is sport. IMHO sport and politics should not mix.
This thread has turned into a debate with many positive and negative sides on both sides of the argument. However, the original question was about a banner.
Nonsense;
Jesse Owens Ali The Revolutions that brought down the USSR (particularly in Poland)
Only a fool would ignore the power of sport in bringing about political and social change.
See this is why so many people struggle to get on board with ideas of what the left come up with. Whilst they are usually kind-hearted and caring ideas, the way they are put across is often patronizing (eg - calling someone a "fool" because they have a different opinion).
I realized this morning with Facebook that so many people are putting their left wing opinions across in a way that is purely to mock right wing stereotypes ("All these immigrants coming over here, doing good things for our country").
Close the thread it's nonsense, every person is welcome to go to football why does such a big deal have to be made to highlight minority groups does my head in
Vast majority are not refugees or they would stay in the 1st country they came to which in most cases is Turkey. The reason they carry on is for economic reasons. The help of Europe should be to secure some land in one of these countries they are fleeing And keep them there with armed forces protecting them until it's safe to go home.
Who's armed forces? Us, the septics, the UN, NATO? I can see that being a raging success.
If the refugees are so desperate, why do they pass through safe countries to get to the UK?
The vast, vast, vast majority don't. Educate yourself.
Of course they do. You have to cross the whole of Europe to get to the UK.
We should take in more than we currently do, however.
Trust me "the vast, vast, vast majority" of refugees do not "pass through safe countries to get to the UK".
I'm not saying your wrong, but it would help if you quoted a source.
Apologies, I thought it was common knowledge - I'm astonished that it isn't.
Total number of refugees worldwide = 10.5m Refugees in the UK = 193,500
Hopefully that clarifies that I was spot on in saying "me "the vast, vast, vast majority" of refugees do not "pass through safe countries to get to the UK""
Vast majority are not refugees or they would stay in the 1st country they came to which in most cases is Turkey. The reason they carry on is for economic reasons. The help of Europe should be to secure some land in one of these countries they are fleeing And keep them there with armed forces protecting them until it's safe to go home.
Who's armed forces? Us, the septics, the UN, NATO? I can see that being a raging success.
Why not? These people are fleeing for the lives. They would be grateful for any protection surely?
I wonder why none of these people are heading to Countries closer to home like Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia etc
I make you right. More suited to there way of life etc
Look at the graphic earlier in this thread. There are approximately four million Syrian refugees in the countries around Syria. I make your "none" very wrong.
This is a very difficult subject, and one I have sympathy with Cameron over. This is a humanitarian crisis and I have no time for the little Englander approach where there is no empathy for the plight of these fellow human beings. But unless there is unlimited immigration, I can’t see how letting significant numbers in will result in anything other than more and more people trying to get in which will only make things worse. However, we can’t dissolve ourselves of blame. Foreign policy mistakes over many years have contributed to the mess and we have a responsibility to try to put them right. The problem with the mistakes is that nobody played through the consequences and that is exactly what has to be done now. If we do this what is the likely effect in 3 months, 6 months, a year, 6 years etc…Trying to compete on who is the most humanitarian country because we have seen some harrowing pictures of dead children won’t help. Children have been dying for years with the west trying to fob the problems off onto each other!
For me the big problem is ISIS. The conditions for their growth and power were created by the west and we have reached a point where we have to sort it out. ISIS won’t go away and they will get more and more dangerous as they act illogically and are capable of anything. The bigger they become the more likely they will have the ability to do some major damage to us. So, there is an interest for the west in joining together (good and bad – USA, Russia, Europe China…..) and wipe them from the map irrespective of the plight of the poor souls we see trying to escape. Then we have to support the persecuted people to rebuild their lives and countries. To me that is the only solution and I was strongly against the war and previous interventions, but now I think there isn’t another answer.
I don't see why refugees HAVE to come to the UK, like many have said they pass through many safe countries in doing so, ( you cant get into the uk without passing through Europe) without flying and I cant imagine its for the green green grass of England.
and agree with other posters about football and politics not going together, as someone previously said the lee Rigby issue was scoured for being political as is this. so no need.
Some may want to specifically come to England but the vast majority just want to get out of their country. Generalising and putting them all in the same boat is human but wrong. We shouldn't be demonising desperate people, willing to die to escape their current circumstances.
Imagine what the 2m people that fled could have achieved if they had stayed and started the 'Syria Party', chants of 'we want our Syria back' echoing around Damascus town hall.
This is a very difficult subject, and one I have sympathy with Cameron over. This is a humanitarian crisis and I have no time for the little Englander approach where there is no empathy for the plight of these fellow human beings. But unless there is unlimited immigration, I can’t see how letting significant numbers in will result in anything other than more and more people trying to get in which will only make things worse. However, we can’t dissolve ourselves of blame. Foreign policy mistakes over many years have contributed to the mess and we have a responsibility to try to put them right. The problem with the mistakes is that nobody played through the consequences and that is exactly what has to be done now. If we do this what is the likely effect in 3 months, 6 months, a year, 6 years etc…Trying to compete on who is the most humanitarian country because we have seen some harrowing pictures of dead children won’t help. Children have been dying for years with the west trying to fob the problems off onto each other!
For me the big problem is ISIS. The conditions for their growth and power were created by the west and we have reached a point where we have to sort it out. ISIS won’t go away and they will get more and more dangerous as they act illogically and are capable of anything. The bigger they become the more likely they will have the ability to do some major damage to us. So, there is an interest for the west in joining together (good and bad – USA, Russia, Europe China…..) and wipe them from the map irrespective of the plight of the poor souls we see trying to escape. Then we have to support the persecuted people to rebuild their lives and countries. To me that is the only solution and I was strongly against the war and previous interventions, but now I think there isn’t another answer.
I do wonder if the people stating 'football and politics don't mix' have any idea of the history of our club, specifically our exile from the Valley.
I have no objection to bringing in more refugees as long as we have the space to house them. We have a housing crisis in the UK already - bringing in refugees just so that they can die on the streets is not helping, hence why other countries that are housing refugees should and do take more in than the UK.
This is a very difficult subject, and one I have sympathy with Cameron over. This is a humanitarian crisis and I have no time for the little Englander approach where there is no empathy for the plight of these fellow human beings. But unless there is unlimited immigration, I can’t see how letting significant numbers in will result in anything other than more and more people trying to get in which will only make things worse. However, we can’t dissolve ourselves of blame. Foreign policy mistakes over many years have contributed to the mess and we have a responsibility to try to put them right. The problem with the mistakes is that nobody played through the consequences and that is exactly what has to be done now. If we do this what is the likely effect in 3 months, 6 months, a year, 6 years etc…Trying to compete on who is the most humanitarian country because we have seen some harrowing pictures of dead children won’t help. Children have been dying for years with the west trying to fob the problems off onto each other!
For me the big problem is ISIS. The conditions for their growth and power were created by the west and we have reached a point where we have to sort it out. ISIS won’t go away and they will get more and more dangerous as they act illogically and are capable of anything. The bigger they become the more likely they will have the ability to do some major damage to us. So, there is an interest for the west in joining together (good and bad – USA, Russia, Europe China…..) and wipe them from the map irrespective of the plight of the poor souls we see trying to escape. Then we have to support the persecuted people to rebuild their lives and countries. To me that is the only solution and I was strongly against the war and previous interventions, but now I think there isn’t another answer.
The main population centres are in the west (that's the bit on the left). To get to the closest country you mentioned, the Iran, most of Syria's population would have to travel East across Syria and Iraq to get there. Or they could go to the countries that surround Syria (which millions have done) or try their luck crossing the Mediterranean sea, which is the blue thing on the western border of the country and attempt to make it to Europe.
Most of you would have kept the Jews out in the 30s
The population was a lot lower in the 30s so we could cope.
I am very much in favour of offering succour to genuine refugees but there are undeniable difficulties in separating those refugees from other less deserving immigrants.
Successive governments, red and blue, have ballsed this up, whether by accident or design, for the best part of 20 years now.
The population was a lot lower so there were less people to do basic services jobs. Your logic doesn't make sense. But I agree about successive governments failing to make the investments in infrastructure and housing
In the thirties there was no Welfare State, in the sense it exists today anyway, so "basic services jobs" didn't exist partly because less people means less demand and partly because people were more self sufficient and, for want of a better way of putting it, 'looked after their own.'
Wasn't this thread about bringing a banner to a football match? Jeez.
Everyone has a democratic right to air their views. If you'd like to make a banner to welcome refugees, you go for it, good for you. If you don't want to because you don't agree with it, then don't.
Comments
Jesse Owens
Ali
The Revolutions that brought down the USSR (particularly in Poland)
Only a fool would ignore the power of sport in bringing about political and social change.
to the question raised by Rothko.
Take Somalians, so the people who come into Britain in the last 20 years, were just the persecuted not the Persecutors ?
Do you think the British authorities are discerning enough to tell the difference.
I'm not saying your hearts aren't in the right place,
but that's why on charity nights on TV,
People reach for their phones when multi millionaire celebs
Plead for your money.
The world has slept walked into this and now its like sticking a plaster on a gapping wound.
This is what happens when the rich nations have the " I'm all right jack and sod the rest of you" attitude.
In the past 20 odd years we have fought 3 wars, bombed the crap out of Libya, done little and stuck our head in the sand over Syria. I would say we have collectively failed miserably. Our servicemen have been killed and maimed by the hundreds and so have countless men women and children in these countries. Now "we" as nation are shrugging our shoulders and getting the hump with people so desperate to leave their hole in the ground they are willing to jump into an inflatable beach toys, with their children, and cross the seas in them.
Anyone who make to these shores deserves our help, god knows they seem to have a bit more lust for life than many indigenous beings in this country.
Total number of refugees worldwide = 10.5m
Refugees in the UK = 193,500
Hopefully that clarifies that I was spot on in saying "me "the vast, vast, vast majority" of refugees do not "pass through safe countries to get to the UK""
I make you right. More suited to there way of life etc
I realized this morning with Facebook that so many people are putting their left wing opinions across in a way that is purely to mock right wing stereotypes ("All these immigrants coming over here, doing good things for our country").
Does my head in.
All people want is a reaction
For me the big problem is ISIS. The conditions for their growth and power were created by the west and we have reached a point where we have to sort it out. ISIS won’t go away and they will get more and more dangerous as they act illogically and are capable of anything. The bigger they become the more likely they will have the ability to do some major damage to us. So, there is an interest for the west in joining together (good and bad – USA, Russia, Europe China…..) and wipe them from the map irrespective of the plight of the poor souls we see trying to escape. Then we have to support the persecuted people to rebuild their lives and countries. To me that is the only solution and I was strongly against the war and previous interventions, but now I think there isn’t another answer.
and agree with other posters about football and politics not going together, as someone previously said the lee Rigby issue was scoured for being political as is this. so no need.
I have no objection to bringing in more refugees as long as we have the space to house them. We have a housing crisis in the UK already - bringing in refugees just so that they can die on the streets is not helping, hence why other countries that are housing refugees should and do take more in than the UK.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Syria/@34.8149145,39.0464523,5z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x1518e6dc413cc6a7:0x877546f4882af620
The main population centres are in the west (that's the bit on the left). To get to the closest country you mentioned, the Iran, most of Syria's population would have to travel East across Syria and Iraq to get there. Or they could go to the countries that surround Syria (which millions have done) or try their luck crossing the Mediterranean sea, which is the blue thing on the western border of the country and attempt to make it to Europe.
Everyone has a democratic right to air their views. If you'd like to make a banner to welcome refugees, you go for it, good for you. If you don't want to because you don't agree with it, then don't.