I guess in theory though, I sit in the 2nd row in the NU, between me, my mate and kids we have 6 ST's....is there anything to stop the club just automatically relocating us when we come to renew (agains our wishes?), what could we realistically do?
I don't really see why they are not just offering it as an optional add-on to any upper north seat. There's no obvious need to move anyone, since the seats have no particular access to the lounge. In that way it wouldn't be a negative even if there is insufficient demand.
Hard to see many people moving from other areas to gain or retain access to Crossbars and if they do the club will be getting less for their seat purchase, presumably.
I sit in the North Upper about 6 rows from the front.
I got the letter yesterday & tbh never considered that they'd want to move me.
I just thought that it's no good for me & that would be that.
I spoke To Ben (sweat the asset) Kensell last night at the VIP meeting.
He told me that it was his idea & (if I understood correctly), that people in the first 6 rows of the North Upper, would be receiving the letters. This suggests to me that it's the front tiers, below the walkway.
I suppose they feel that anyone wanting to relocate, would prefer to sit at the front, as it's further away from the drum, singing and people standing.
I told Ben I wasn't interested for the following reasons :-
They don't have BT sport, so you won't be able to watch Prem football.
I wouldn't want to use the lounge at half time.
I wouldn't want to use the lounge after.
I know the team/starting 11already (smart phones exist).
Unlimited free alcohol at half time is no good when you're driving & how many drinks can you consume in 10 mins ?
I don't want a complementary programme as I stopped buying them, when the internet, meant most of the content was old news. In any case, it won't be complementary, as you'll be paying for it in the price.
I DO NOT WISH TO BE SWEATED AND AM REALLY ANGRY IF THE CLUB ARE GOING TO MOVE ME.
I suggest the trust do something about this immediately.
The trust undestandably are always questioning, what they should/shouldn't be getting involved in.
Well here you go boys/girls. This is as important to me as whether Charlton move from The Valley or not.
Upsetting our dwindling S/T base is no way forward.
Our club really is not being run coherantly.
If I had wanted to move, I would have done so.
If fans (not customers) in the West or East wanted to sit in the North, they would be doing so.
If fans want to move to the North Upper to access Crossbars, there are plenty of empty seats & will be even more next season, the way things are going. This can be achieved without upsetting anyone.
Sell our only decent forward & now you want to sell my seat !
I think as Nicholas said last week, OUR club is making some joke decisions.
Unfortunately, it looks like the joke is on us.
By god this season has been a massive disappointment, but this could be the final straw.
Surely the ST is the "customers" primary purchase.
But the club seems to be attacking the "customers" choice of primary purchase for a secondary purchase ie a lounge pass.
So if you sit in the East that is your primary purchase and the most valuable to the club. How likely are you to give up that primary purchase to retain or gain a secondary purchase ie a lounge pass?
This is also a market where there is plenty of competition from local pubs and clubs and from Bartrams. These are further away but not greatly (where not an out of town new build like Derby) and free or cheap access. £1 to get in the Lib. They also have open access. I can meet any Charlton fan I want (and I few I don't) in the Lib but couldn't to that in crossbars.
The one USP seems to be the half-time facility but as Covered End that is not a huge bonus if you drive.
I sit in the North Upper about 6 rows from the front.
I got the letter yesterday & tbh never considered that they'd want to move me.
I just thought that it's no good for me & that would be that.
I spoke To Ben (sweat the asset) Kensell last night at the VIP meeting.
He told me that it was his idea & (if I understood correctly), that people in the first 6 rows of the North Upper, would be receiving the letters. This suggests to me that it's the front tiers, below the walkway.
I suppose they feel that anyone wanting to relocate, would prefer to sit at the front, as it's further away from the drum, singing and people standing.
I told Ben I wasn't interested for the following reasons :-
They don't have BT sport, so you won't be able to watch Prem football.
I wouldn't want to use the lounge at half time.
I wouldn't want to use the lounge after.
I know the team/starting 11already (smart phones exist).
Unlimited free alcohol at half time is no good when you're driving & how many drinks can you consume in 10 mins ?
I don't want a complementary programme as I stopped buying them, when the internet, meant most of the content was old news. In any case, it won't be complementary, as you'll be paying for it in the price.
I DO NOT WISH TO BE SWEATED AND AM REALLY ANGRY IF THE CLUB ARE GOING TO MOVE ME.
I suggest the trust do something about this immediately.
Upsetting our dwindling S/T base is no way forward.
Our club really is not being run coherantly.
If I had wanted to move, I would have done so.
If fans (not customers) in the West or East wanted to sit in the North, they would be doing so.
I think as Nicholas said last week, OUR club is making some joke decisions.
I sincerely hope that Airman Brown is right on this one. I like my seat. I sit with 2 friends and we have a nice bunch of people around us. Being told to either cough up an extra few hundred quid or piss off somewhere else is not going to be welcomed by any of us!
Just to clarify, as AB says there was an (embargoed - pls correct me if I'm wrong) consultation with the FF and Trust about proposals some weeks ago, we have been talking to Charlton about their plans generally as we were keen to examine them with a view to writing an analysis of it and received the final documents last night I believe.
I think Ben has genuinely tried to consult on this, and think it is unfair to say they have not consulted and listened. As Airman says they are trying to get more from Crossbars.
I've just been on the phone to Ben Kensell just now and will try and clarify any elements of contention a bit later (which I think are largely about whether people will be compelled to move or not? please bullet point them for me on here, or via inbox if you like but switfly please).
You will need to bear with me a little as I wasn't at the meeting, am not a North Stander and have never been in cross bars on a matchday - wish we had a lounge in the East as well as best seats in the house.
Just to clarify, as AB says there was an (embargoed - pls correct me if I'm wrong) consultation with the FF and Trust about proposals some weeks ago, we have been talking to Charlton about their plans generally as we were keen to examine them with a view to writing an analysis of it and received the final documents last night I believe.
I think Ben has genuinely tried to consult on this, and think it is unfair to say they have not consulted and listened. As Airman says they are trying to get more from Crossbars.
I've just been on the phone to Ben Kensell just now and will try and clarify any elements of contention a bit later (which I think are largely about whether people will be compelled to move or not? please bullet point them for me on here, or via inbox if you like but switfly please).
You will need to bear with me a little as I wasn't at the meeting, am not a North Stander and have never been in cross bars on a matchday - wish we had a lounge in the East as well as best seats in the house.
No disrespect to the Trust or the FF, but the systems previously in place were there for a reason - they allowed a dozen or so people with long experience to challenge new ideas on the basis of accumulated knowledge about the business and how it works.
This one won't fly and shouldn't have got this far - even then the communication is muddled as the confusion on here about what the letter means has demonstrated.
I think Ben has genuinely tried to consult on this, and think it is unfair to say they have not consulted and listened.
Who was consulted and listened to out of interest ?
And did the "consultation" include the full details of this proposal such as the forcing ST holder to move if they didn't not take part or having to give up a seat in another stand to retain their crossbars pass?
If so, what was the response of the Trust and the Fans Forum to these proposals?
I ask because i'm interested in how the thought process and input (by whom) is determined and consulted on such things, and how we get to the point where someone at the club had the idea about potentially turfing out 6 rows of people (that is a LOT of people) and other people (not at the club) thought that seemed a good idea.
I'm sure this will quickly be denied, re-tracted, whatever. There is more chance of us getting promoted this season than it being followed through as people have been told so far.
I've just been on the phone to Ben Kensell just now and will try and clarify any elements of contention a bit later (which I think are largely about whether people will be compelled to move or not? please bullet point them for me on here, or via inbox if you like but switfly please).
For me the issue is certainly whether I and my friends will be compelled to move our seats if we don't wish to spend the extra, not inconsiderable, amount for a benefit I neither want nor need.
@Covered End has pretty much covered my views, I certainly will be putting up a fight not to move
Won't happen, wouldn't worry about it.
It had better not, because I'm absolutely fuming.
(I'm already "down" financially as a VIP holder after 4 years & last night Richard Murray & Ben Kensell seemed to be suggesting, that they were unaware of this & at least to me, that it was fair that we should be worse off.
I didn't think it helped that many people in the room seemed to be all too pleased, that they were worse off.)
So people are getting upset about potentially moving to a different seat in the same stand - potentially 20 feet or so away?
depends on how you view it, me and my mate take our kids (all of whom are 8 and under) and they get a great unobstructed view from where we sit, wouldn't really fancy being '20 feet away' as you put it, or say 10 rows back with a worse view.
I wouldn't care if it wasn't for the kids and to be honest we wouldn't be sitting that far forward if they didn't come.
The mentality gleaned from this letter is that we are seen as "customers" not "supporters." Assets need to be "sweated" and businesses do that by customer "churn" which is a fancy way of saying that they don't give a toss what the customer thinks and they (the customer) can go elsewhere if they don't like it.
The pillock in charge seems to have read page 1 of his Business Studies book but neglected to consider that he is working for a football club where customers will not and cannot simply go to the supplier down the road, as with most businesses, because of the emotional nature of football.
He thinks ah ha I have a captive audience so I can crap all over them dressing it up in fancy marketing speak of course.
That may be true at a "brand" like Arsenal where he worked before as demand far exceeds supply. The same is not true of a second, or more probably next season, third division football club.
My experience as the holder of two season tickets is that I often cannot give my second ticket away when my daughter is unavailable through university commitments. Plenty on here will say well who wants to sit next to you for 90 minutes which is a very valid observation but in all seriousness there is not the casual demand for lower division football.
Alienate the "core" supporter at your peril in my view.
I've had my phone call, just after making my post above coincidentally, and spoke to an excellent representative whose name I will not disclose as I do not want to risk getting them into trouble.
Cutting through the spiel it appears that those of us affected will be able to renew our existing seats at a "normal" season ticket price for season 2014/15 if we renew before 9 April. However "going forward" our seats will be a package area for Crossbars.
Do those in the East and West who use it, then have to leave the bar, and exit the ground to walk around to where their seat is?
How many people use Crossbars at present?
Why would people who currently pay a premium to sit in East/West want to move to the cheap seats - presumably they pay that premium for what they perceive as a better view?
Can I be the first to start the Kensall out chant?
Can I second that.
Can I suggest the trust write to Mr Kensell, advising him that we wish he has a new office/seat located at The New Den & we really wish that he enjoys the journey.
Hi we are monitoring this situation and talking with Charlton about it, more on that shortly particularly when the full picture of this change is clear.
One thing I would ask is, if fans are so concerned about the match day experience, why have only 706 fans completed the survey? This is the first part of the collaborative effort between club and Trust, yet we can only get a fraction to complete it despite widespread publicity? This isn't a moan, I am genuinely puzzled on why.
It's gone out on all our channels and some major club ones too and is due to end shortly, and is a major way we can have a say at least in what we want - its not the only way of influencing of course, but could play a big part.
First I've heard of a survey, and 'gone out on all our channels' clearly doesnt include by post.
Hi we are monitoring this situation and talking with Charlton about it, more on that shortly particularly when the full picture of this change is clear.
One thing I would ask is, if fans are so concerned about the match day experience, why have only 706 fans completed the survey? This is the first part of the collaborative effort between club and Trust, yet we can only get a fraction to complete it despite widespread publicity? This isn't a moan, I am genuinely puzzled on why.
It's gone out on all our channels and some major club ones too and is due to end shortly, and is a major way we can have a say at least in what we want - its not the only way of influencing of course, but could play a big part.
First I've heard of a survey, and 'gone out on all our channels' clearly doesnt include by post.
no it doesn't but perhaps it should funds permitting etc
It was however in Trust News, our website, Charlton Life, the club website and programme, and our and their social media, and on our stall.
Comments
Hard to see many people moving from other areas to gain or retain access to Crossbars and if they do the club will be getting less for their seat purchase, presumably.
I got the letter yesterday & tbh never considered that they'd want to move me.
I just thought that it's no good for me & that would be that.
I spoke To Ben (sweat the asset) Kensell last night at the VIP meeting.
He told me that it was his idea & (if I understood correctly), that people in the first 6 rows of the North Upper, would be receiving the letters. This suggests to me that it's the front tiers, below the walkway.
I suppose they feel that anyone wanting to relocate, would prefer to sit at the front, as it's further away from the drum, singing and people standing.
I told Ben I wasn't interested for the following reasons :-
They don't have BT sport, so you won't be able to watch Prem football.
I wouldn't want to use the lounge at half time.
I wouldn't want to use the lounge after.
I know the team/starting 11already (smart phones exist).
Unlimited free alcohol at half time is no good when you're driving & how many drinks can you consume in 10 mins ?
I don't want a complementary programme as I stopped buying them, when the internet, meant most of the content was old news. In any case, it won't be complementary, as you'll be paying for it in the price.
I DO NOT WISH TO BE SWEATED AND AM REALLY ANGRY IF THE CLUB ARE GOING TO MOVE ME.
I suggest the trust do something about this immediately.
The trust undestandably are always questioning, what they should/shouldn't be getting involved in.
Well here you go boys/girls. This is as important to me as whether Charlton move from The Valley or not.
Upsetting our dwindling S/T base is no way forward.
Our club really is not being run coherantly.
If I had wanted to move, I would have done so.
If fans (not customers) in the West or East wanted to sit in the North, they would be doing so.
If fans want to move to the North Upper to access Crossbars, there are plenty of empty seats & will be even more next season, the way things are going. This can be achieved without upsetting anyone.
Sell our only decent forward & now you want to sell my seat !
I think as Nicholas said last week, OUR club is making some joke decisions.
Unfortunately, it looks like the joke is on us.
By god this season has been a massive disappointment, but this could be the final straw.
But the club seems to be attacking the "customers" choice of primary purchase for a secondary purchase ie a lounge pass.
So if you sit in the East that is your primary purchase and the most valuable to the club. How likely are you to give up that primary purchase to retain or gain a secondary purchase ie a lounge pass?
This is also a market where there is plenty of competition from local pubs and clubs and from Bartrams. These are further away but not greatly (where not an out of town new build like Derby) and free or cheap access. £1 to get in the Lib. They also have open access. I can meet any Charlton fan I want (and I few I don't) in the Lib but couldn't to that in crossbars.
The one USP seems to be the half-time facility but as Covered End that is not a huge bonus if you drive.
I think Ben has genuinely tried to consult on this, and think it is unfair to say they have not consulted and listened. As Airman says they are trying to get more from Crossbars.
I've just been on the phone to Ben Kensell just now and will try and clarify any elements of contention a bit later (which I think are largely about whether people will be compelled to move or not? please bullet point them for me on here, or via inbox if you like but switfly please).
You will need to bear with me a little as I wasn't at the meeting, am not a North Stander and have never been in cross bars on a matchday - wish we had a lounge in the East as well as best seats in the house.
This one won't fly and shouldn't have got this far - even then the communication is muddled as the confusion on here about what the letter means has demonstrated.
And did the "consultation" include the full details of this proposal such as the forcing ST holder to move if they didn't not take part or having to give up a seat in another stand to retain their crossbars pass?
If so, what was the response of the Trust and the Fans Forum to these proposals?
I'm sure this will quickly be denied, re-tracted, whatever. There is more chance of us getting promoted this season than it being followed through as people have been told so far.
(I'm already "down" financially as a VIP holder after 4 years & last night Richard Murray & Ben Kensell seemed to be suggesting, that they were unaware of this & at least to me, that it was fair that we should be worse off.
I didn't think it helped that many people in the room seemed to be all too pleased, that they were worse off.)
I wouldn't care if it wasn't for the kids and to be honest we wouldn't be sitting that far forward if they didn't come.
The pillock in charge seems to have read page 1 of his Business Studies book but neglected to consider that he is working for a football club where customers will not and cannot simply go to the supplier down the road, as with most businesses, because of the emotional nature of football.
He thinks ah ha I have a captive audience so I can crap all over them dressing it up in fancy marketing speak of course.
That may be true at a "brand" like Arsenal where he worked before as demand far exceeds supply. The same is not true of a second, or more probably next season, third division football club.
My experience as the holder of two season tickets is that I often cannot give my second ticket away when my daughter is unavailable through university commitments. Plenty on here will say well who wants to sit next to you for 90 minutes which is a very valid observation but in all seriousness there is not the casual demand for lower division football.
Alienate the "core" supporter at your peril in my view.
Cutting through the spiel it appears that those of us affected will be able to renew our existing seats at a "normal" season ticket price for season 2014/15 if we renew before 9 April. However "going forward" our seats will be a package area for Crossbars.
Its a breeze block unit that serves overpriced drinks through underused pipes, not a barefoot trek across the Andes.......
Do those in the East and West who use it, then have to leave the bar, and exit the ground to walk around to where their seat is?
How many people use Crossbars at present?
Why would people who currently pay a premium to sit in East/West want to move to the cheap seats - presumably they pay that premium for what they perceive as a better view?
Can I suggest the trust write to Mr Kensell, advising him that we wish he has a new office/seat located at The New Den & we really wish that he enjoys the journey.
It was however in Trust News, our website, Charlton Life, the club website and programme, and our and their social media, and on our stall.