Amidst all the comments about this being a farce and this being a joke etc etc I'm going to give you all a quick Geography lesson, minus the colouring in.
Precipitation runs into the ground filling the gaps between rocks and soil until it finally reaches a point where the soil is completely saturated. It is this point where the soil is completely saturated that we call the water table. The water table fluctuates dramatically dependent on your location. Usually it is several metres below the surface however in areas that experience high levels or precipitation, or happen to be close to rivers or the sea it can be somewhat higher. Often if areas experience freak amounts of rainfall the water table will rise to the surface causing the top layer of soil to become boggy and saturated, and in extreme cases even flood.
I hate to be patronising, and it's been mentioned before but we play football in a Valley, next to one of the largest rivers in the country. Whatever facilities that had been dug under the pitch to "help" drain any water away (and I say help because no drainage system is guaranteed to ensure you remove all excess water from an area, or somehow magically change the water table) are either overawed by the recent rainfall or have been failed to be maintained to a high enough standard in the past. There are a lot of things you can beat in life but as we see all so often nature isn't one of them, and on that basis it really isn't worth getting angry about it.
But you can anticipate and plan. It is the failure to warn supporters that there were problems with the pitch that has rightly angered people.
phil what do you want them to do now then, how can they make you feel better
SR I don't doubt any of that, I just don't get the outrage , the only winners today were our players, how can that not be a positive thing, glad u agree
I think you'll find the away fans that travelled are winners too. They get another chance to escape from Barnsley for a few hours.
Jollyrobins got it. About Charlton Village, `From it's lofty eminence, it had, and still has, a spectacular view over the river. In the 18th century the view north was across large areas of riverside marsh'
The club statement following the postponement of the game is abject as other posters have pointed out due to the lack of responsibility and blame deflection. The central point of that statement was to cover someones back. I doubt Roland Duchelet or Katrien Miere is going to be very impressed with that.
I really get the feeling that the people behind that statement just don't get it or really don't give a sh*t. Not good communication. There was a complete absence of vision of what kind of pitch the club should be producing and what is trying to be achieved at the club.
What the statement shows is the lack of togetherness and feeling that everyone is part of a team that is pulling in the same direction. That the central thing is the wellbeing of the supporters / customers and how the abysmal pitch (that has been abysmal for some time - remember Hull ) is going to be addressed.
The apologies were a sideshow to the back covering. There was no discussion at all about how the pitch will be put right. Remember, the players have been complaining about for the pitch for a long time. To get quality players at our club, improve attendance and see some proper football / entertainment, Charlton need a decent pitch. It is basic stuff.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (apologies if I've overlooked it)is the lack of san announcement to fans outside the ground. I arrived at around 12.30 & left at 1.35, the Twitter announcement was at 1.11 I believe but there was no tannoy announcement to fans already at the ground.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (apologies if I've overlooked it)is the lack of san announcement to fans outside the ground. I arrived at around 12.30 & left at 1.35, the Twitter announcement was at 1.11 I believe but there was no tannoy announcement to fans already at the ground.
You were inside the ground at 12.30 ?
Pretty poor, the police were telling fans getting off trains when I arrived at Charlton station at 1.20.
This all serves to highlight the real legacy of the previous owners: a totally dysfunctional management structure where nobody accepts any responsibility at all. Good luck to Roland & Katrien in sorting that out, as well as all the pitch, contract & player issues. Welcome to SE7 folks.
I agree that people are angry and I can understand that, but I really cannot see what more the club could have done.
In terms of getting the pitch ready, they have spent money to do what they cand and have commited to spend more money in the off-season.
In terms of communication, the ground staff have every reason to believe that if, on Friday, the pitch was in a better state than it was before the Brighton or Wednesday game, then the game would go ahead fine.
They could not be expected to put out a statement on Friday to the supporters sayin 'well you can come if you like, the game might or might not be on'. Not least because, if they had and loads of Barnsley had decided not to attend such an important match, which was then played, they would be in massive amounts of criticism.
On the day the communication again told the fans exactly what was happening when they knew - nothing more they could do.
Unfortunately:
- either the referee had higher expectations of a pitch than those for the Wednesday or Brighton games.
- or changes in the water table overnight were decisive.
Neither of these things are under the club's control.
I looked back at the OS announcement that the pitch will be addressed thread. It seems likely that the pitch will struggle to get through the winter. Micks1950 posted some links on fixing drainage. Not an expert in that area myself but maybe Micks 1950 suggestions will help ? Don't know where the drain has collapsed exactly but hopefully that would not mean digging up the whole pitch to apply this temporary fix ?
The main aim will be just to get through the season. Yes, the pitch will be poor, not ideal for a decent passing game and we won't get any pretty games of football, but it will be safe for the players.
The hard work will then begin during the summer to get the drainage sorted and the whole thing relaid.
Micks 1950:
I don't know how different the drains at the Valley are from domestic drains or how serious the problem is - but there are ways of remotely re-lining collapsed pipes if an access point is available or can be made, which might offer a better short (even medium) term solution:
OK, yesterday is done now - we can't change that, but an urgent new statement is now required to address:
- a sincere apology including how fans will be compensated (use ticket again? refund of ticket? travel costs?) - what went wrong (what has caused the problem plus the events leading up to the postponement) - what are the arrangements for the midweek FA Cup match (what is the latest it will be postponed/ if postponed, will the match be replayed or changed to Oxford (or do we concede the match)) - what is to be done to fix the situation (both in time for the more immediate fixtures and beyond and into next season)
I know some of this has come out in previous statements but it needs to be drawn together.
Has the club actually had a survey done so they know exactly what the problems are?
If it is a case of collapsed drains, is it just in one place under the pitch (which could be dug up in that spot and repaired) or is it that the collapse is under the North / West stand (may be a bigger problem).
Aside from the FA cup match, we have one home league game this month and then a gap to 8th Feb. Is it worth biting the bullet and getting the drainage sorted even if it means re-arranging our 2 games this month?
Aside from the FA cup match, we have one home league game this month and then a gap to 8th Feb. Is it worth biting the bullet and getting the drainage sorted even if it means re-arranging our 2 games this month?
I thought this. The short term plan doesn't to be working.
Except from the Oxford game and the Bournemouth game( hopefully re arranged) we've only got 2 games in 6 weeks at home ( Birmingham, burnley). Can we not do anything in that period to sort the issue because we can not keep having games called off the night before or on the day.
The club need to get an action plan together because if not we've got a big problem.
Except those that travelled for miles with a big expense
If your a local fan its minor inconveince that's all
This. I stayed in the pub. Many times i've said 'football get its in the way of a good piss up' and yesterday i got my wish'.
I understand thats not the circumstances for everyone but to me its the embarrassing fact that we are à football club who can't play games of football that angers me.
Except those that travelled for miles with a big expense
If your a local fan its minor inconveince that's all
I understand NLA that having bigger balls is usually helpful in most situations.
Agree that everyone loves a good moan, and it has been gone through. There is a definite pitch problem there that cannot be ignored. It is better now to think constructively looking at the problem to find a solution. Putting energy in that would be better.
Hardy made a good suggestion that Stonewall picked up on in biting the bullet and getting the drainage sorted as the short term leave it current solution is not working.
Can the drainage problem be patched / fixed quickly in the short term ?
Except those that travelled for miles with a big expense
If your a local fan its minor inconveince that's all
I don't think this is necessarily a 'minor inconvenience' even if you are local.
For those that have travelled a long way the problem is more obvious but many will have arranged their weekends, work and family events around the match. For most, the days of 'just popping along to the match' are long gone.
As a football supporter there's an unwritten contract in your head - if it's chucking it down and there are warnings of pitch inspections then you set out for the match at your on risk. If the weather's nice and there has been no comment during the week that the game might be off then your club has broken this 'contract' if it subsequently gets called off. That hacks people off.
For you, maybe, it's just a case of going home, saying ho hum, getting on with your day and looking forward to the rearranged match - don't assume that your experience is a microcosm of that of all Charlton fans.
I don't really understand why people are blaming comms more than ground staff. The ground staff said the pitch was playable and there was no reason to have an early inspection. Therefore there was nothing for comms to say unless they were going to argue that the ground staff were wrong. Then the ref arrives and says he is going to do a pitch inspection which the comms team tweeted. There is the possibility that they could have raised this earlier but only by an hour or two so it wouldn't have had an effect on the longer journeys. Then they tweet the game is abandoned. After this they have to find the facts, speak to management and work together to put a statement out. Admittedly they did not do this very well and I understand they didn't answer the phone to journos last night. There was indeed a poor reaction, but the reason people are pissed off is because the game was called of late which is the ground staff's fault and not comms fault.
The thing is, the refs from Brighton and Doncaster would have played the game, so its down to the ref. Th reputation of how bad the pitch is may well have influenced the ref.
Except those that travelled for miles with a big expense
If your a local fan its minor inconveince that's all
Personally I find your dismissive attitude towards the genuine upset caused by what happened yesterday and the days leading up to the game both arrogant and insulting. And before you respond I can pretty much guess that you don't care what I think, but that's not going to stop me expressing the view.
Wouldn't surprise me if we have to seek an emergency groundshare for the rest of this season!
I'm also wondering if the collapsed drain is part of a wider problem in the area... for a couple of years or more, we've noticed a frequent smell of sewage as we walk along Woolwich Road. There will certainly be a smell of sewage in the club on Monday morning.
Except those that travelled for miles with a big expense
If your a local fan its minor inconveince that's all
I'm surprised at your stance on this one, NLA.
I think your point about giving players a rest has some merit. I'd actually be in favour of a January break. However if it happens in a chaotic way like this, it means we end up with fixture pile up, which can be a bigger disadvantage, especially if we are in a scrap, as others have said. Oh and apparently Barnsley had big injury problems yesterday too. What goes around, comes around.
But what really worries me is this. It's not obvious to me that the pitch problems can be fixed in mid -season. Why are you so confident they can be? If I am right, this has potentially horrendous implications about which Im finding it difficult to "chill".
Finally I don't think it's right to dismiss the cost to all those fans who forked out yesterday at a time when everybody is struggling to make ends meet. That was very avoidable. We know we have a pitch which is vulnerable to weather at the moment. So the club should have contingency plan where the interests of fans is much higher up the agenda than it was yesterday. I believe that this is the issue the Trust should focus on short term, because it is fixable. Whether the pitch is fixable short term, heaven only knows.
I'm also wondering if the collapsed drain is part of a wider problem in the area... for a couple of years or more, we've noticed a frequent smell of sewage as we walk along Woolwich Road. There will certainly be a smell of sewage in the club on Monday morning.
That's low tide on The Thames - the mudbanks can really chuck up sometimes - particularly in the summer.
At a time when football pitch care and maintenance technology is at an all time high and virtually a science it's only Charlton Athletic that could with such panache roll back the years to 1970 and provide a playing surface which is now officially the worst and castigated in the entire football league and beyond. It has cost supporters thousands of pounds. Will cost the club god only knows how much to remedy and in fines and perhaps worst of all has made us quite rightly a laughing stock. The winter and spring are yet to come with no possibility of an adequate quick fix. The repercussions could be enormous.
How this cannot be viewed as a cluster wottsit of the highest magnitude is astonishing.
Comments
About Charlton Village,
`From it's lofty eminence, it had, and still has, a spectacular view over the river. In the 18th century the view north was across large areas of riverside marsh'
But still no excuse.
I really get the feeling that the people behind that statement just don't get it or really don't give a sh*t. Not good communication. There was a complete absence of vision of what kind of pitch the club should be producing and what is trying to be achieved at the club.
The apologies were a sideshow to the back covering. There was no discussion at all about how the pitch will be put right. Remember, the players have been complaining about for the pitch for a long time. To get quality players at our club, improve attendance and see some proper football / entertainment, Charlton need a decent pitch. It is basic stuff.
Pretty poor, the police were telling fans getting off trains when I arrived at Charlton station at 1.20.
In terms of getting the pitch ready, they have spent money to do what they cand and have commited to spend more money in the off-season.
In terms of communication, the ground staff have every reason to believe that if, on Friday, the pitch was in a better state than it was before the Brighton or Wednesday game, then the game would go ahead fine.
They could not be expected to put out a statement on Friday to the supporters sayin 'well you can come if you like, the game might or might not be on'. Not least because, if they had and loads of Barnsley had decided not to attend such an important match, which was then played, they would be in massive amounts of criticism.
On the day the communication again told the fans exactly what was happening when they knew - nothing more they could do.
Unfortunately:
- either the referee had higher expectations of a pitch than those for the Wednesday or Brighton games.
- or changes in the water table overnight were decisive.
Neither of these things are under the club's control.
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/58784/on-os-valley-pitch-problems-to-be-addressed/p1
micks1950 Member
January 6
Brendan_O_Connell said:
The main aim will be just to get through the season. Yes, the pitch will be poor, not ideal for a decent passing game and we won't get any pretty games of football, but it will be safe for the players.
The hard work will then begin during the summer to get the drainage sorted and the whole thing relaid.
Micks 1950:
I don't know how different the drains at the Valley are from domestic drains or how serious the problem is - but there are ways of remotely re-lining collapsed pipes if an access point is available or can be made, which might offer a better short (even medium) term solution:
http://www.drain247.co.uk/drain-sewer-re-lining/
http://www.patchliner.com/index.html
Just a thought....
- a sincere apology including how fans will be compensated (use ticket again? refund of ticket? travel costs?)
- what went wrong (what has caused the problem plus the events leading up to the postponement)
- what are the arrangements for the midweek FA Cup match (what is the latest it will be postponed/ if postponed, will the match be replayed or changed to Oxford (or do we concede the match))
- what is to be done to fix the situation (both in time for the more immediate fixtures and beyond and into next season)
I know some of this has come out in previous statements but it needs to be drawn together.
If it is a case of collapsed drains, is it just in one place under the pitch (which could be dug up in that spot and repaired) or is it that the collapse is under the North / West stand (may be a bigger problem).
Aside from the FA cup match, we have one home league game this month and then a gap to 8th Feb. Is it worth biting the bullet and getting the drainage sorted even if it means re-arranging our 2 games this month?
I thought this. The short term plan doesn't to be working.
The club need to get an action plan together because if not we've got a big problem.
Except those that travelled for miles with a big expense
If your a local fan its minor inconveince that's all
I understand thats not the circumstances for everyone but to me its the embarrassing fact that we are à football club who can't play games of football that angers me.
GAME OFF: CHARLTON ATHLETIC v MILTON KEYNES DONS - FA WOMEN'S CUP SECOND ROUND
(Was to played at Thamesmead).
Agree that everyone loves a good moan, and it has been gone through. There is a definite pitch problem there that cannot be ignored. It is better now to think constructively looking at the problem to find a solution. Putting energy in that would be better.
Hardy made a good suggestion that Stonewall picked up on in biting the bullet and getting the drainage sorted as the short term leave it current solution is not working.
Can the drainage problem be patched / fixed quickly in the short term ?
For those that have travelled a long way the problem is more obvious but many will have arranged their weekends, work and family events around the match. For most, the days of 'just popping along to the match' are long gone.
As a football supporter there's an unwritten contract in your head - if it's chucking it down and there are warnings of pitch inspections then you set out for the match at your on risk. If the weather's nice and there has been no comment during the week that the game might be off then your club has broken this 'contract' if it subsequently gets called off. That hacks people off.
For you, maybe, it's just a case of going home, saying ho hum, getting on with your day and looking forward to the rearranged match - don't assume that your experience is a microcosm of that of all Charlton fans.
Then the ref arrives and says he is going to do a pitch inspection which the comms team tweeted. There is the possibility that they could have raised this earlier but only by an hour or two so it wouldn't have had an effect on the longer journeys.
Then they tweet the game is abandoned.
After this they have to find the facts, speak to management and work together to put a statement out. Admittedly they did not do this very well and I understand they didn't answer the phone to journos last night.
There was indeed a poor reaction, but the reason people are pissed off is because the game was called of late which is the ground staff's fault and not comms fault.
The pitch was crap, everyone knew. Danny Wilson was told an hour/1hr 30 before any of us. It took them 5 hours to make a statement...
Jokers
I'm also wondering if the collapsed drain is part of a wider problem in the area... for a couple of years or more, we've noticed a frequent smell of sewage as we walk along Woolwich Road. There will certainly be a smell of sewage in the club on Monday morning.
I think your point about giving players a rest has some merit. I'd actually be in favour of a January break. However if it happens in a chaotic way like this, it means we end up with fixture pile up, which can be a bigger disadvantage, especially if we are in a scrap, as others have said. Oh and apparently Barnsley had big injury problems yesterday too. What goes around, comes around.
But what really worries me is this. It's not obvious to me that the pitch problems can be fixed in mid -season. Why are you so confident they can be? If I am right, this has potentially horrendous implications about which Im finding it difficult to "chill".
Finally I don't think it's right to dismiss the cost to all those fans who forked out yesterday at a time when everybody is struggling to make ends meet. That was very avoidable. We know we have a pitch which is vulnerable to weather at the moment. So the club should have contingency plan where the interests of fans is much higher up the agenda than it was yesterday. I believe that this is the issue the Trust should focus on short term, because it is fixable. Whether the pitch is fixable short term, heaven only knows.
How this cannot be viewed as a cluster wottsit of the highest magnitude is astonishing.