I can talk sense sometimes if I put my mind to it, and post before 12 pints, I am still old skool in heart, but mind is saying the current situation is unsustainable.
Onwards and upwards, hopefully.
Not that I am convinced any takeover will happen, it is just that if it does I think we may have to open our minds to the future possibilities, the current realities and not try and hold onto a sepia tinged past that is long gone.
Would hate my kids to support arsenal, man utd etc. For the next generation I want us to be open to change rather than be non existent or irrelevant.
That would hurt more than a move of less than a mile away.
I am convinced and believe that the formal announcement is just days away. The future vision of Charlton at the Pen. is not my cup of tea, (or bottle of gin, delete as appropriate). I wish unbound joy and good luck to CAFC and all who will sail with her.
I appreciate what Steve is saying. I hope I have also been arguing for an open mind on the issue. However an open mind requires a bit more than sweeping generalisations about the modern world. It requires detailed facts about the pros and cons, which of course currently we don't have. But it is important to demand them, and not just to trust people who say it is the only way to stay competitive.
So I will repeat two inconvenient facts which get in the way of the "only way is move" argument
1. The Valley is already as good as several current FAPL grounds and is capable of further development We don't know how much or what it would cost, but until this option is honestly presented, you cannot decide on the issue
2. If the case for moving is so clear cut, then why have Fulham, a club which has shown us the way on the pitch in the last 7 years, and led until recently by a businessman who knew about property and location, decided to stay put and develop Craven Cottage?
...and another vote for Dowman - a considered and pragmatic post, IMHO.
If all this takeover malarkey comes to pass (and I sincerely hope that it does, because at the moment we are sliding towards a debt induced calamity), then it may be that we will be faced with a one-off opportunity. Taking it or not taking could define the future of the club and whether it will be around in a generation's time. Football is now surely about the haves and the have nots. If we get offered to the chance to dream of actually being with the 'haves' again, can we really afford to turn it down? The problem is that the have nots might not be around for too long the way things are going....and if we choose to stand by them it might really come down to keeping our principles as a lower league team that struggles to stay afloat from week to week or reaching for that 'dream' of playing with the big boys, which could well end up with the same outcome if it it all goes tits up!
1. I've got a 1980's Jag which is a nice car, full of tradition and history and is capable of taking me to Glasgow and back in comfort. I've also got a Jag that is thirty years newer and is better than the old model in everything that it does.
2. Fulham are to a certain extent stuffed as they're stuck in H&F where the chances of getting a new site like the Penisular are beyond remote. The likelihood of them improving and extending CC is not only going to be difficult but expensive. They've already had planning permission turned down for the Main Stand as they wanted to cantilever out onto the River. And if you think nimbyism is bad here.......
Prague, I do undestand what you're saying about our Valley, but bottom line is in the cold light of day, the Penisular option has got to be a serious alternative.
1. I've got a 1980's Jag which is a nice car, full of tradition and history and is capable of taking me to Glasgow and back in comfort. I've also got a Jag that is thirty years newer and is better than the old model in everything that it does. .
I think the takeover will take place very shortly. Just be patient folks, take one step at a time and see what happens. Trying to look at the big picture is impossible. As events unfold it'll be clearer what we need to do as a football club. And if that means moving away from the Valley but within the Charlton catchment area, so be it. Hopefully the new owners will be in it for the long haul with the ambition to do whatever is needed to take us to that next level.
Born 1957.First game at valley sept 1967.Hated Selhurst .Upton Park was fun.Waited until 1998 for first top flight game at valley.Hate being out of top flight .Would gladly/reluctantly give up the valley for top flight in a new stadium on the peninsular.
1. I've got a 1980's Jag which is a nice car, full of tradition and history and is capable of taking me to Glasgow and back in comfort. I've also got a Jag that is thirty years newer and is better than the old model in everything that it does. .
I can talk sense sometimes if I put my mind to it, and post before 12 pints, I am still old skool in heart, but mind is saying the current situation is unsustainable.
Onwards and upwards, hopefully.
Not that I am convinced any takeover will happen, it is just that if it does I think we may have to open our minds to the future possibilities, the current realities and not try and hold onto a sepia tinged past that is long gone.
Would hate my kids to support arsenal, man utd etc. For the next generation I want us to be open to change rather than be non existent or irrelevant.
That would hurt more than a move of less than a mile away.
It's 1.8 miles on foot from The Valley to Morden Wharf Road on the peninsula. Not wishing to be pedantic, but it does make a difference if you are walking!
Surprised to be honest with the amount of people that'd support a move. It's just my personal opinion of course but it'll take the soul out of Charlton for me. I look at what's happened to Cardiff and it's nothing short of disgusting. I'd much rather we be in the Championship than Premier League at the cost of changing our ground, our kit and even our nickname just to be in the big time and for some randomer in Vietnam to know who Charlton are. The idea of prostituting ourselves to be lucrative to foreign nobodies who have no interest in the fans or traditions does not appeal to me.
I am being extremely hyperbole here, but that's where I see the game going and I don't want Charlton to be a part of it. I get what people are saying, it's needed and money talks. But the most fun I have at football grounds is visiting the older stadiums, Brentford, Fulham, Yeovil, Palace away. They're are all amazing to me because it's old and dingey. Can't even say I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses as I was born in 1993. I've done the Amex, been to the Emirates and it doesn't appeal to me. I suppose I can look at my local Eastbourne Borough for that sort of thing. I know what I say doesn't make sense from an objective point of view and we do need investment, it doesn't mean I have to like it if they make us move from The Valley in favour of a multi-purpose, soulless plastic bowl.
Surprised to be honest with the amount of people that'd support a move. It's just my personal opinion of course but it'll take the soul out of Charlton for me. I look at what's happened to Cardiff and it's nothing short of disgusting. I'd much rather we be in the Championship than Premier League at the cost of changing our ground, our kit and even our nickname just to be in the big time and for some randomer in Vietnam to know who Charlton are. The idea of prostituting ourselves to be lucrative to foreign nobodies who have no interest in the fans or traditions does not appeal to me.
I am being extremely hyperbole here, but that's where I see the game going and I don't want Charlton to be a part of it. I get what people are saying, it's needed and money talks. But the most fun I have at football grounds is visiting the older stadiums, Brentford, Fulham, Yeovil, Palace away. They're are all amazing to me because it's old and dingey. Can't even say I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses as I was born in 1993. I've done the Amex, been to the Emirates and it doesn't appeal to me. I suppose I can look at my local Eastbourne Borough for that sort of thing. I know what I say doesn't make sense from an objective point of view and we do need investment, it doesn't mean I have to like it if they make us move from The Valley in favour of a multi-purpose, soulless plastic bowl.
Take your point. It wouldn't have to be soulless and plastic though. I was at Cardiff last April when they clinched promotion against us and that place was rocking.
...and another vote for Dowman - a considered and pragmatic post, IMHO.
If all this takeover malarkey comes to pass (and I sincerely hope that it does, because at the moment we are sliding towards a debt induced calamity), then it may be that we will be faced with a one-off opportunity. Taking it or not taking could define the future of the club and whether it will be around in a generation's time. Football is now surely about the haves and the have nots. If we get offered to the chance to dream of actually being with the 'haves' again, can we really afford to turn it down? The problem is that the have nots might not be around for too long the way things are going....and if we choose to stand by them it might really come down to keeping our principles as a lower league team that struggles to stay afloat from week to week or reaching for that 'dream' of playing with the big boys, which could well end up with the same outcome if it it all goes tits up!
Well, as I have said, I'm open too. I'm just a bit more sceptical than many here about the actual benefits. Of course its a long way down the line too, but I will try and take a leaf out of Henry's book. He has made an excellent checklist against which to evaluate the business plan of any new owners. Something similar can be done with the stay/move issue.
So here's my list of test questions, all suggestions for improvement welcome:
Staying
What extra seating, executive boxes and entertainment can be built into the Valley? What is the development cost of such work? What is the expected extra revenue? - in this League/In the FAPL? What is the annual running cost?
Moving
What seating, executive boxes and entertainment is planned? What is the forecast revenue - in this League/In the FAPL What is the expected rental and maintenance cost? What new benefits - such as a Safe Standing area- are offered What car parking will be available, at what expected cost?
I heard this afternoon from someone who normally knows what's going on that a deal has been done today to sell the club for £29 million. I know not whether this is true or to whom or anything about a ground move. Simply passing on a snippet for what its worth.
My first game was actually at Selhurst Park to watch us beat Luton Town when my Dad used to take me and my brother so I was around not when The Valley closed but for when it re-opened in 1992.
For me The Valley is not a Premier League standard ground anymore. Since our relegation in 2007 other clubs have come up with new grounds or have since expanded. As it stands we have the 12th biggest ground in the Championship and compared to the Premier League would have the 16th biggest ground so i'd say The Valley is currently at our level of being a mid-table Championside side.
The Valley will only ever be fit for purpose in the Premier League if it was expanded to 40,000 which as it stands would make it the 9th biggest ground in the Premier League. But the question has to be asked, without real investment who is ever going to develop The Valley into a 40,000 capacity stadium? I can't see anybody doing it if 10 years on we were still paying for the ground to be expanded to 26,500. Not only that but can we sustain Premier League football if we stay at The Valley? We lasted 7 years last time who's to say we would last that long again. At least if we moved to a new site with owners backing us they'd likely sustain any relegation from The Premier League until we would be able to return again.
Now if moving to The Peninsular is the only way of attracting any investment to provide us with a stable future then i'm for it as well. I'm 32 years old and hve already had a lifetime's worth of watching us struggle to stay afloat, you struggle to find many Charlton fans in there 30's due to the exile years and nearly going bust, do we really want to forever be a club left behind in the lower leagues running on losses every year as that's the way we will likely go unless we keep pace with similar sized clubs who are/have overtaken us since our relegation from The Premier League.
I'm all for tradition and while I can see the arguement for staying at The Valley, I was there in 1992 I can also recognise that this move is completely different to the one which forced us to go to Selhurst I just think it's sink or swim and this could be the only opportunity we get and think it's one we have to take. If I want my traditional football i'll simply pop down to Welling for the odd game :-)
I heard this afternoon from someone who normally knows what's going on that a deal has been done today to sell the club for £29 million. I know not whether this is true or to whom or anything about a ground move. Simply passing on a snippet for what its worth.
I bumped into Gavin P. on Friday, meant to ask him for any inside info but got dragged away by the Missus before I had a chance to get onto the subject - will undoubtedly see him again soon, this time....
From a financial point of view, what is it about needing a 'premier league standard' stadium? The revenue generated from the matchday sales is tiny compared to pl tv money and the difference will increase every time the pl cut a new deal with sky, bt or whoever. We might as well play on Charlton Park if we get promoted:-)
Comments
We desperately need to be taken over where that leads us who can say.
If it doesn't happen we will only go in one direction, which strangely enough isn't up.
Onwards and upwards, hopefully.
Not that I am convinced any takeover will happen, it is just that if it does I think we may have to open our minds to the future possibilities, the current realities and not try and hold onto a sepia tinged past that is long gone.
Would hate my kids to support arsenal, man utd etc. For the next generation I want us to be open to change rather than be non existent or irrelevant.
That would hurt more than a move of less than a mile away.
Well put.
So I will repeat two inconvenient facts which get in the way of the "only way is move" argument
1. The Valley is already as good as several current FAPL grounds and is capable of further development We don't know how much or what it would cost, but until this option is honestly presented, you cannot decide on the issue
2. If the case for moving is so clear cut, then why have Fulham, a club which has shown us the way on the pitch in the last 7 years, and led until recently by a businessman who knew about property and location, decided to stay put and develop Craven Cottage?
If all this takeover malarkey comes to pass (and I sincerely hope that it does, because at the moment we are sliding towards a debt induced calamity), then it may be that we will be faced with a one-off opportunity. Taking it or not taking could define the future of the club and whether it will be around in a generation's time. Football is now surely about the haves and the have nots. If we get offered to the chance to dream of actually being with the 'haves' again, can we really afford to turn it down? The problem is that the have nots might not be around for too long the way things are going....and if we choose to stand by them it might really come down to keeping our principles as a lower league team that struggles to stay afloat from week to week or reaching for that 'dream' of playing with the big boys, which could well end up with the same outcome if it it all goes tits up!
2. Fulham are to a certain extent stuffed as they're stuck in H&F where the chances of getting a new site like the Penisular are beyond remote. The likelihood of them improving and extending CC is not only going to be difficult but expensive. They've already had planning permission turned down for the Main Stand as they wanted to cantilever out onto the River. And if you think nimbyism is bad here.......
Prague, I do undestand what you're saying about our Valley, but bottom line is in the cold light of day, the Penisular option has got to be a serious alternative.
I am being extremely hyperbole here, but that's where I see the game going and I don't want Charlton to be a part of it. I get what people are saying, it's needed and money talks. But the most fun I have at football grounds is visiting the older stadiums, Brentford, Fulham, Yeovil, Palace away. They're are all amazing to me because it's old and dingey. Can't even say I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses as I was born in 1993. I've done the Amex, been to the Emirates and it doesn't appeal to me. I suppose I can look at my local Eastbourne Borough for that sort of thing. I know what I say doesn't make sense from an objective point of view and we do need investment, it doesn't mean I have to like it if they make us move from The Valley in favour of a multi-purpose, soulless plastic bowl.
So here's my list of test questions, all suggestions for improvement welcome:
Staying
What extra seating, executive boxes and entertainment can be built into the Valley?
What is the development cost of such work?
What is the expected extra revenue? - in this League/In the FAPL?
What is the annual running cost?
Moving
What seating, executive boxes and entertainment is planned?
What is the forecast revenue - in this League/In the FAPL
What is the expected rental and maintenance cost?
What new benefits - such as a Safe Standing area- are offered
What car parking will be available, at what expected cost?
Anyone got anything to add to the questions?
For me The Valley is not a Premier League standard ground anymore. Since our relegation in 2007 other clubs have come up with new grounds or have since expanded. As it stands we have the 12th biggest ground in the Championship and compared to the Premier League would have the 16th biggest ground so i'd say The Valley is currently at our level of being a mid-table Championside side.
The Valley will only ever be fit for purpose in the Premier League if it was expanded to 40,000 which as it stands would make it the 9th biggest ground in the Premier League. But the question has to be asked, without real investment who is ever going to develop The Valley into a 40,000 capacity stadium? I can't see anybody doing it if 10 years on we were still paying for the ground to be expanded to 26,500. Not only that but can we sustain Premier League football if we stay at The Valley? We lasted 7 years last time who's to say we would last that long again. At least if we moved to a new site with owners backing us they'd likely sustain any relegation from The Premier League until we would be able to return again.
Now if moving to The Peninsular is the only way of attracting any investment to provide us with a stable future then i'm for it as well. I'm 32 years old and hve already had a lifetime's worth of watching us struggle to stay afloat, you struggle to find many Charlton fans in there 30's due to the exile years and nearly going bust, do we really want to forever be a club left behind in the lower leagues running on losses every year as that's the way we will likely go unless we keep pace with similar sized clubs who are/have overtaken us since our relegation from The Premier League.
I'm all for tradition and while I can see the arguement for staying at The Valley, I was there in 1992 I can also recognise that this move is completely different to the one which forced us to go to Selhurst I just think it's sink or swim and this could be the only opportunity we get and think it's one we have to take. If I want my traditional football i'll simply pop down to Welling for the odd game :-)