Think the slight fly in the ointment for any plan to attract corporate hospitality clients is that we just don't have that pull. You can probably count the number of fans we have in Asia, for instance, on the fingers of one hand. (Jessie!)
Its all well and good having plans to chase the corporate money, but any business plan based on us turning over a huge amount of cash from it is doomed to fail.
Or maybe nice new social housing for the Valley site and posh upscale flats for the river front without any pesky troublesome football supporters.
How is the ACV (Asset of Community Value) application coming along ?
Council are not dragging their feet with some bureaucratic double admin speak about the application not being completed on the correct form or something similar or they ? Did Greenwich Council initially want the Valley back ? Maybe need to remember all the excellent community initiatives that the club carries out locally.
Or maybe nice new social housing for the Valley site and posh upscale flats for the river front without any pesky troublesome football supporters.
How is the ACV (Asset of Community Value) application coming along ?
Council are not dragging their feet with some bureaucratic double admin speak about the application not being completed on the correct form or something similar or they ? Did Greenwich Council initially want the Valley back ? Maybe need to remember all the excellent community initiatives that the club carries out locally.
To be fair to the council, unusual I know, they probably see more kudos from having a new style PL team in the borough rather than the old skool valley, which means a move to a new stadium. I can understand that, they seem to be trying to redefine the area based around the peninsular development. It will only work with a successful team that has the backing to move them upwards. I have no problem with that. As much as the selhurst years hurt (and Upton park to a lesser extent) I don't feel the affinity to the current ground I did years ago. What we returned to and what we have there is not what I loved about the valley, peanut man, old covered end, bar under the covered end, supporters club before the game, half time scores board, sheds behind the west where it would be like the wild west when we had London derbies or Newcastle or Sunderland (mainly woolwich squaddies) up for it, al fresco toilets. I realise things change, I have let the old days go, I think we need to do the same, without serious backing we cannot compete and may not be around in ten years or less without change. These memories are exactly that and my dwindling attendance are testament to that the last few years. I know nostalgia plays tricks on the brain and it was never as good as your memories, but they are my precious memories of the valley and will never go, dementia permitting, but my affinity is to my club, not the old ground. I would welcome a move that would bring an opportunity if any (even limited) success now.
I hope it happens.
After what we went through before, I had one of the flyers from the palace game where we were told we were moving, I understand some fans being emotionally attached, though I remember plenty suggesting when we left before that there were options to move from the valley to peninsular sites, even the old stones sports club was mooted, by fans, as an alternative option to sharing with the nige.
Let it go, embrace the future, not the past. It is going to be hard enough to convince my kids to support us as it is, without admin and slipping down the league's.
Charlton is my love, the Valley is my memory, it is long gone.
I greatly respect your eloquently expressed view, but what puzzles me about it, and similar views from others is this:
What makes you certain that if we move to the Pen, Premiership and great riches will automatically follow? It didnt happen for Coventry, did it? And what makes you certain that if we stay at the Valley, admin and slipping down the leagues automaticallyawaits us? It didn't happen to Fulham did it? (they are going to upgrade the Cottage)
To be fair to the council, unusual I know, they probably see more kudos from having a new style PL team in the borough rather than the old skool valley, which means a move to a new stadium. I can understand that, they seem to be trying to redefine the area based around the peninsular development. It will only work with a successful team that has the backing to move them upwards. I have no problem with that. As much as the selhurst years hurt (and Upton park to a lesser extent) I don't feel the affinity to the current ground I did years ago. What we returned to and what we have there is not what I loved about the valley, peanut man, old covered end, bar under the covered end, supporters club before the game, half time scores board, sheds behind the west where it would be like the wild west when we had London derbies or Newcastle or Sunderland (mainly woolwich squaddies) up for it, al fresco toilets. I realise things change, I have let the old days go, I think we need to do the same, without serious backing we cannot compete and may not be around in ten years or less without change. These memories are exactly that and my dwindling attendance are testament to that the last few years. I know nostalgia plays tricks on the brain and it was never as good as your memories, but they are my precious memories of the valley and will never go, dementia permitting, but my affinity is to my club, not the old ground. I would welcome a move that would bring an opportunity if any (even limited) success now.
I hope it happens.
After what we went through before, I had one of the flyers from the palace game where we were told we were moving, I understand some fans being emotionally attached, though I remember plenty suggesting when we left before that there were options to move from the valley to peninsular sites, even the old stones sports club was mooted, by fans, as an alternative option to sharing with the nige.
Let it go, embrace the future, not the past. It is going to be hard enough to convince my kids to support us as it is, without admin and slipping down the league's.
Charlton is my love, the Valley is my memory, it is long gone.
Very powerful post even though I'd rather stay at the valley
PA, I don't think its about those events actually happening ...its about the fact that new owners MIGHT see that as the way forward.
Sure, and all i'm saying to that is, I hope they will be able to enter into a rational dialogue with us about the business case for moving rather than staying put.
And another point, there's a difference between nostalgia, and heritage/tradition. Heritage and tradition sell things. Ask Tata Motors
Some good points Steve. Am old enough to remember the peanut seller and the half time score boards at half time.
I happy to stay at the Valley but will go with the change if am sure the clubs future is protected and the situation is stable. Also not have money from the sale of the Valley go into someone's back pocket and that the move will enable the club to grow and progress.
Am not adverse to moving, would prefer for the club to own the ground, not only because I understand that in FPP rents count but it roots the club. Maybe there is another way of doing it with the club renting where the club's future is safeguarded and won't be subject to future big rent rises but I am no expert on that.
Maybe the ACV application will better ensure that a ground for Charlton is properly considered in the area and allowed on the Peninsula site and Safeguard the future of the club.
Charlton Athletic and supporters are stakeholders in Greenwich and are a positive force in Greenwich. Club initiatives contribute to the community with excellent anti knife, anti racist and community projects, alongside football training for the kids. Greenwich Council need to remember this positive contribution.
Think the slight fly in the ointment for any plan to attract corporate hospitality clients is that we just don't have that pull. You can probably count the number of fans we have in Asia, for instance, on the fingers of one hand. (Jessie!)
Its all well and good having plans to chase the corporate money, but any business plan based on us turning over a huge amount of cash from it is doomed to fail.
Yes the biggest problem is that there're I believe very few Charlton fans here.I'm a member of the biggest sports forum in China but I'm the ONLY Charlton fan out of the 20 million regular members.People generally have zero interest in a club which is not in the top flight.There're almost no live Championship games on TV or the internet so clubs like ourselves,or Bolton,Blackburn,Wigan,Middlesbrough,we may all have attracted some people when we were in the Premier League but when we went down,most of them just dropped their interest and either 1)started to focus on the bigger clubs or 2)grew interest in newcomers like Swansea etc.I saw the news this week that Wang Jianlin,the richest man in China may invest in Roma and I was like 'no...why not Charlton'.But then again,why Charlton?Chinese investors like to make quick money and without a fan base,I don't think it's easy to convince them that we're a club that worth investing in.Wang Jianlin has also been linked with Arsenal recently whom we obviously can't compete with either.
PA, I don't think its about those events actually happening ...its about the fact that new owners MIGHT see that as the way forward.
Sure, and all i'm saying to that is, I hope they will be able to enter into a rational dialogue with us about the business case for moving rather than staying put.
And another point, there's a difference between nostalgia, and heritage/tradition. Heritage and tradition sell things. Ask Tata Motors
I hope that the positive relationship that the Trust has built up with the club is transferred by the current owners to any new owners and that they engage, so that the once trusting relationship can be re established and the fans views can be heard, even if not acted up on.
Like PA I would like to see plans for the future from current and future owners and I know in the post before this regime PA also called for business plans.
I suppose in the event of new ground consideration, I would like to change the emphasise of the dialogue from requiring a business case for moving away, to a business case for the future, looking at the pros and cons of all aspects of the business and including the future of the Valley, its pros and cons and the same for any realistic alternatives.
PA thanks for your response yesterday and confirmation that Lansdowne Mews does not materially affect expansion plans and the points on Executive boxes. My only comment on capacity expansion is would we get planning permission given a potentially hostile RBG and on Executive boxes is could we fill them. Of course as it stands at the moment we need neither and any move is purely pessimistic speculation.
The interesting thing for me is that those who seem to hold the strongest views, whether for or against moving, no longer go in a regular basis (not a dig, circumstances / location / levels of interest change).
I suspect that many of us in the category who do still go regularly, really don't know what to think at this point in time.
Does seem to be a lot of wasted energy and worry prematurely though atm.
Good post. Getting to the prem will spark more interest and any potential owners contemplating a move need to realise that you cannot generate more income from corporates without being in prem, so they need to put some money into the playing side, which cannot be a bad thing.
I remember after we had been in prem a couple of years being in Asia after bartletts goal against Leicester and seeing two locals in CAFC shirts. It will happen with the exposure the PL brings.
I am no lover of corporate hospitality, apart from personally when I get a chance, but we have to live in the real world and not think a quaint old ground will bring any success, or even survival nowadays.
It will be easier to attract corporate customers and build up a bigger fan base if the club is doing well and has enough corporate boxes to accommodate the interest. If our new owners see that the best way of achieving both success and bums on expensive seats is by moving us to a stadium capable of such growth in terms of size, status and location with other possible revenue streams not possible at The Valley then I think it's right that they consider it.
Charlton Atheltic not playing in Charlton is ridiculous. I'm a bit too young to have been there for the wilderness years but I know that our fight for The Valley is part of our identity as a football club, what was the point of all that if we just move on in just 20 odd years or so? We own our ground which is a massive bonus and provides us with some little stability, just improve upon what's already there and stick this new plastic bowl where the sun don't shine.
Football is not about luxury apartments, fancy restaurants and day trippers. It shouldn't be anyway, if this all goes through (still massive doubts btw) and is the blueprint for a successful club then it's not something I want to be part of and is one of the many reasons I am becoming disillusioned with the game.
Charlton Atheltic not playing in Charlton is ridiculous. I'm a bit too young to have been there for the wilderness years but I know that our fight for The Valley is part of our identity as a football club, what was the point of all that if we just move on in just 20 odd years or so? We own our ground which is a massive bonus and provides us with some little stability, just improve upon what's already there and stick this new plastic bowl where the sun don't shine.
Football is not about luxury apartments, fancy restaurants and day trippers. It shouldn't be anyway, if this all goes through (still massive doubts btw) and is the blueprint for a successful club then it's not something I want to be part of and is one of the many reasons I am becoming disillusioned with the game.
I'm sorry but I disagree. The future of football is everything to do with luxury appartments, fancy restaurants and day trippers. Its becoming very lucrative for an elite few clubs glitzy prestige business. The rich will get richer and the poor will go bust. Football is an entertainment business now not the model established 120 years ago. Charlton might have a unique opportunity to climb aboard the survival bus or they can remain as they currently are and risk the uncertain future.
I like to think that Charlton will be around in 100 years and there is no way on earth that The Valley will be their home then. Stadiums built in residential narrow streets within the heart of local communities are now historic relics of what football once was. I think change is inevitable. It's not what we had once but nor is anything really.
Charlton Atheltic not playing in Charlton is ridiculous. I'm a bit too young to have been there for the wilderness years but I know that our fight for The Valley is part of our identity as a football club, what was the point of all that if we just move on in just 20 odd years or so? We own our ground which is a massive bonus and provides us with some little stability, just improve upon what's already there and stick this new plastic bowl where the sun don't shine.
Football is not about luxury apartments, fancy restaurants and day trippers. It shouldn't be anyway, if this all goes through (still massive doubts btw) and is the blueprint for a successful club then it's not something I want to be part of and is one of the many reasons I am becoming disillusioned with the game.
Unfortunately, and I agree with your sentiments, football is exactly that now. As much as we may want it to, time cannot be turned back to the old times.
Without success on the pitch I cannot see how we can continue to sustain the current level of losses, unless you are prepared to buy out the current owners and take on £6m losses a year.
Think the slight fly in the ointment for any plan to attract corporate hospitality clients is that we just don't have that pull. You can probably count the number of fans we have in Asia, for instance, on the fingers of one hand. (Jessie!)
Its all well and good having plans to chase the corporate money, but any business plan based on us turning over a huge amount of cash from it is doomed to fail.
Yes the biggest problem is that there're I believe very few Charlton fans here.I'm a member of the biggest sports forum in China but I'm the ONLY Charlton fan out of the 20 million regular members.People generally have zero interest in a club which is not in the top flight.There're almost no live Championship games on TV or the internet so clubs like ourselves,or Bolton,Blackburn,Wigan,Middlesbrough,we may all have attracted some people when we were in the Premier League but when we went down,most of them just dropped their interest and either 1)started to focus on the bigger clubs or 2)grew interest in newcomers like Swansea etc.I saw the news this week that Wang Jianlin,the richest man in China may invest in Roma and I was like 'no...why not Charlton'.But then again,why Charlton?Chinese investors like to make quick money and without a fan base,I don't think it's easy to convince them that we're a club that worth investing in.Wang Jianlin has also been linked with Arsenal recently whom we obviously can't compete with either.
I was living in Brunei when we were in the Prem. We were on the TV (Astro) roughly one week in three. The locals were mad on Premier League Football. Not only did they all know about Charlton, I frequently heard it said "I like Charlton" mainly because we were a new club that they weren't familiar with previously. I got the feeling that they were happy to embrace the "underdog" and be a little different. These day's it's all about success, TV exposure and clever marketing. I have no doubt that we could possibly break into the huge Asian market in the future. I was amazed that we didn't exploit the Zheng Zhi signing more than we did at the time, but guess we were more focused on a relegation battle.
Think the slight fly in the ointment for any plan to attract corporate hospitality clients is that we just don't have that pull. You can probably count the number of fans we have in Asia, for instance, on the fingers of one hand. (Jessie!)
Its all well and good having plans to chase the corporate money, but any business plan based on us turning over a huge amount of cash from it is doomed to fail.
Yes the biggest problem is that there're I believe very few Charlton fans here.I'm a member of the biggest sports forum in China but I'm the ONLY Charlton fan out of the 20 million regular members.People generally have zero interest in a club which is not in the top flight.There're almost no live Championship games on TV or the internet so clubs like ourselves,or Bolton,Blackburn,Wigan,Middlesbrough,we may all have attracted some people when we were in the Premier League but when we went down,most of them just dropped their interest and either 1)started to focus on the bigger clubs or 2)grew interest in newcomers like Swansea etc.I saw the news this week that Wang Jianlin,the richest man in China may invest in Roma and I was like 'no...why not Charlton'.But then again,why Charlton?Chinese investors like to make quick money and without a fan base,I don't think it's easy to convince them that we're a club that worth investing in.Wang Jianlin has also been linked with Arsenal recently whom we obviously can't compete with either.
I was living in Brunei when we were in the Prem. We were on the TV (Astro) roughly one week in three. The locals were mad on Premier League Football. Not only did they all know about Charlton, I frequently heard it said "I like Charlton" mainly because we were a new club that they weren't familiar with previously. I got the feeling that they were happy to embrace the "underdog" and be a little different. These day's it's all about success, TV exposure and clever marketing. I have no doubt that we could possibly break into the huge Asian market in the future. I was amazed that we didn't exploit the Zheng Zhi signing more than we did at the time, but guess we were more focused on a relegation battle.
Same experience here ... I worked frequently in Singapore when we were in the Premiership and a number of locals 'adopted' us .... but they had no interest once we were relegated
That is the real world, why would anyone abroad stick with a losing team when they get relegated, they don't have any ties like we have. I have been to Singapore many times, my sister has lived there for 20 years and remember many locals commenting favourably on my various cafc badges/shirts
I am not a person who dismisses heritage and the past easily, it is not in my nature, but I am no luddite either and fear for our future if we do not take opportunities if they exist.
Back in the Glikstein days I used to stand in the covered end on rainy days and wonder if we would ever have a seated Valley. It was a bit like a dream. Then at Palace and Upton Park we all just wanted to be back at the Valley no matter what the ground looked like and to be sure it was a bit of a mess when we finally returned. My Grandad supported us when we went briefly to Catford and I am sure I will support Charlton if ever we were transplanted to the peninsula but why? My dream has come true. The Valley is now a lovely ground, unpretentious. We will never be an Arsenal and it seems silly to think we would ever reach the Champions League. Kevin Ayers used to say, 'Know who you are and be there.' Wise words we should take heed of.
Haha, no-one, just realised that football has been giving me less enjoyment over the years and that i can't keep harking back to a 'golden' era of bovril, peanuts and plucky underdog to attract future fans, especially my own kids. Old skool tales/grounds don't cut it for the younger generation, time to move on, or die. We are rapidly, like it or not, coming to the haves and have nots of football and two different leagues, the PL and others. I want to take my kids to regale them of the old days, not show them the old days, warts and all, it doesn't appeal any more, time to move on.
Comments
Its all well and good having plans to chase the corporate money, but any business plan based on us turning over a huge amount of cash from it is doomed to fail.
How is the ACV (Asset of Community Value) application coming along ?
Council are not dragging their feet with some bureaucratic double admin speak about the application not being completed on the correct form or something similar or they ? Did Greenwich Council initially want the Valley back ? Maybe need to remember all the excellent community initiatives that the club carries out locally.
To be fair to the council, unusual I know, they probably see more kudos from having a new style PL team in the borough rather than the old skool valley, which means a move to a new stadium. I can understand that, they seem to be trying to redefine the area based around the peninsular development. It will only work with a successful team that has the backing to move them upwards. I have no problem with that. As much as the selhurst years hurt (and Upton park to a lesser extent) I don't feel the affinity to the current ground I did years ago. What we returned to and what we have there is not what I loved about the valley, peanut man, old covered end, bar under the covered end, supporters club before the game, half time scores board, sheds behind the west where it would be like the wild west when we had London derbies or Newcastle or Sunderland (mainly woolwich squaddies) up for it, al fresco toilets. I realise things change, I have let the old days go, I think we need to do the same, without serious backing we cannot compete and may not be around in ten years or less without change. These memories are exactly that and my dwindling attendance are testament to that the last few years. I know nostalgia plays tricks on the brain and it was never as good as your memories, but they are my precious memories of the valley and will never go, dementia permitting, but my affinity is to my club, not the old ground. I would welcome a move that would bring an opportunity if any (even limited) success now.
I hope it happens.
After what we went through before, I had one of the flyers from the palace game where we were told we were moving, I understand some fans being emotionally attached, though I remember plenty suggesting when we left before that there were options to move from the valley to peninsular sites, even the old stones sports club was mooted, by fans, as an alternative option to sharing with the nige.
Let it go, embrace the future, not the past. It is going to be hard enough to convince my kids to support us as it is, without admin and slipping down the league's.
Charlton is my love, the Valley is my memory, it is long gone.
I greatly respect your eloquently expressed view, but what puzzles me about it, and similar views from others is this:
What makes you certain that if we move to the Pen, Premiership and great riches will automatically follow? It didnt happen for Coventry, did it? And what makes you certain that if we stay at the Valley, admin and slipping down the leagues automaticallyawaits us? It didn't happen to Fulham did it? (they are going to upgrade the Cottage)
The moving home guff is getting on my tits.can you take it elsewhere please.
And another point, there's a difference between nostalgia, and heritage/tradition. Heritage and tradition sell things. Ask Tata Motors
I happy to stay at the Valley but will go with the change if am sure the clubs future is protected and the situation is stable. Also not have money from the sale of the Valley go into someone's back pocket and that the move will enable the club to grow and progress.
Am not adverse to moving, would prefer for the club to own the ground, not only because I understand that in FPP rents count but it roots the club. Maybe there is another way of doing it with the club renting where the club's future is safeguarded and won't be subject to future big rent rises but I am no expert on that.
Maybe the ACV application will better ensure that a ground for Charlton is properly considered in the area and allowed on the Peninsula site and Safeguard the future of the club.
Charlton Athletic and supporters are stakeholders in Greenwich and are a positive force in Greenwich. Club initiatives contribute to the community with excellent anti knife, anti racist and community projects, alongside football training for the kids. Greenwich Council need to remember this positive contribution.
Like PA I would like to see plans for the future from current and future owners and I know in the post before this regime PA also called for business plans.
I suppose in the event of new ground consideration, I would like to change the emphasise of the dialogue from requiring a business case for moving away, to a business case for the future, looking at the pros and cons of all aspects of the business and including the future of the Valley, its pros and cons and the same for any realistic alternatives.
PA thanks for your response yesterday and confirmation that Lansdowne Mews does not materially affect expansion plans and the points on Executive boxes. My only comment on capacity expansion is would we get planning permission given a potentially hostile RBG and on Executive boxes is could we fill them. Of course as it stands at the moment we need neither and any move is purely pessimistic speculation.
Re Tata ... Jaguar and Land Rover?
I suspect that many of us in the category who do still go regularly, really don't know what to think at this point in time.
Does seem to be a lot of wasted energy and worry prematurely though atm.
I remember after we had been in prem a couple of years being in Asia after bartletts goal against Leicester and seeing two locals in CAFC shirts. It will happen with the exposure the PL brings.
I am no lover of corporate hospitality, apart from personally when I get a chance, but we have to live in the real world and not think a quaint old ground will bring any success, or even survival nowadays.
Football is not about luxury apartments, fancy restaurants and day trippers. It shouldn't be anyway, if this all goes through (still massive doubts btw) and is the blueprint for a successful club then it's not something I want to be part of and is one of the many reasons I am becoming disillusioned with the game.
1 day? 1 week?
Jesus.
I like to think that Charlton will be around in 100 years and there is no way on earth that The Valley will be their home then. Stadiums built in residential narrow streets within the heart of local communities are now historic relics of what football once was. I think change is inevitable. It's not what we had once but nor is anything really.
Without success on the pitch I cannot see how we can continue to sustain the current level of losses, unless you are prepared to buy out the current owners and take on £6m losses a year.
These day's it's all about success, TV exposure and clever marketing. I have no doubt that we could possibly break into the huge Asian market in the future. I was amazed that we didn't exploit the Zheng Zhi signing more than we did at the time, but guess we were more focused on a relegation battle.
Different example but backs up SHG's argument about what happens when money impacts the entertainment model.
I am not a person who dismisses heritage and the past easily, it is not in my nature, but I am no luddite either and fear for our future if we do not take opportunities if they exist.
If they exist at all.
My Grandad supported us when we went briefly to Catford and I am sure I will support Charlton if ever we were transplanted to the peninsula but why? My dream has come true. The Valley is now a lovely ground, unpretentious. We will never be an Arsenal and it seems silly to think we would ever reach the Champions League. Kevin Ayers used to say, 'Know who you are and be there.' Wise words we should take heed of.