Email from Police recieved today (24 May) after I had chased last week.
Part One ----------------------------------------
Dear Mr Hayes,
I am writing to you in response to an e'mail that you sent to Chief Superintendent Richard Wood on the 22nd February 2013. I can only apologise for the delay in receiving a response; unfortunately, for whatever reason, this has only just arrived with me.
In relation to the meeting that took place on the 21st and the performance of the police officers present, I'm afraid I am unable to comment, as I was out of the country at the time. I have cc'd this e'mail in to the Chief Inspector who runs the football unit at Croydon for his attention.
I was the match commander for that game, and I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time out to share your feedback and concerns, it really is much appreciated; I hope in this response to offer some context and clarity around the matters you have highlighted. I'm not familiar with John Powell, but please let me reassure you that I have been policing Crystal Palace for near on a decade, and I am one of the most senior advanced public order commanders in the country.
First and foremost, the policing measure of holding back Charlton fans in Park Road was not a pre-planned tactic. It was engineered as a last resort and in good faith, in response to intelligence and events that had occurred. Sadly, there were a minority of Charlton fans embedded within the wider cohort that were intent on committing crime and disorder. A number of crimes were committed during the game, including the dangerous setting off of flares and a huge amount of criminal damage to seating and toilets. Many pieces of wood from these seats became missiles and were thrown. Furthermore, it was the unanimous opinion of my ground commanders that day (who, like me, were very experienced public order commanders) that to not do something to regulate the egress of away fans (thereby allowing the vast majority to mix with home supporters near the ground or at Norwood Junction Railway Station) would almost certainly result in serious disorder/harm. To this end, whilst I fully accept the consequences of adopting such a tactic, particularly on those caught up in it, I had an honest held belief that this was the only viable option under the circumstances. To support the above, a public order wall was deployed across Park Road, to prevent either set of fans from engaging in disorder at the crossroads of Park Road and Holmesdale Road.
In a matter of a few minutes, disorder broke out, as Charlton fans became violent towards officers deployed at the head of that movement. As officers struggled to prevent this group breaching the cordon, they then did their best to manage the slow walk up to Norwood Junction. As a positive, I’m pleased to say that the tactic was enforced (with crowd dynamics closely monitored) for no longer than reasonably required, and people were kept safe. Sadly however, this was at the expense of others who were inconvenienced.
In terms of communication with those caught up in Park Road, the ground tannoy system was used to communicate with supporters both inside and outside the stadium; and officers were briefed to communicate face-to-face. I am disappointed if you felt that this wasn’t the case; and this is something that I have already picked up in subsequent de-briefs.
With regard to your question around 'marching all fans to one station', my strict instruction was that the cordon in Park Road near Whitehorse Lane was to be a discretionary cordon. It needed to exist to stop a mass movement; but the instruction was to let supporters through at the officers’ discretion on the ground (i.e. if an imminent breach of the peace was feared).
In relation to police dogs, their deployment in public order is a tactic that is carefully considered in formulating any tactical plan. Officers deployed with police dogs are well trained and practised in such events. Unfortunately, owing to the sudden nature of the breakaway of Charlton fans, officers were placed on the 'back foot' and were consequently forced to work in a tight space and close proximity to police dogs, as a result of which some injuries were sustained.
In the interests of continuous improvement, at the conclusion of the event, a hot de-brief was chaired by myself at South Norwood Police Station with the principle commanders. At that de-brief, it was collectively agreed that the brief hold back of Charlton fans was contributory to the fact that public safety was maintained. Had the aforementioned tactics not been employed, then no-one could see how serious violence would have been avoided either immediately outside the stadium or at Norwood Junction. Further meetings have also taken place since in order to capture what went well, what didn’t go so well and how we could do more to improve the delivery of this tactic if it had to be used again, which it has successfully against Brighton in the play-off semi-final. As we prepare for next season, I can assure you that I will include your feedback in further planning discussion.
Moving forwards, the geography of the stadium is a challenge at Selhurst Park; particularly for those few games of the year where significant numbers of fans are aiming for Norwood Junction. As such, I cannot rule out the possibility of similar tactics being deployed in future. In previous matches against Millwall & Brighton there were no outbreaks of such disorder; one of which was subjected to the same hold back tactics. Sadly, in the case of this Charlton game however, we were clearly dealing with a group of mindless thugs embedded within the wider crowd, who were clearly intent on committing crime & disorder. I do not agree that the hold back was the cause of disorder but simply an opportunity (I draw evidence again from the disorder and damage exercised by Charlton fans inside the stadium and the 'bragging' of such on social network sites).
It may at this point be useful for me to share with you some of the alternative options that I considered when making decisions around post match deployments in order to support my overarching intention of keeping people safe;
Sangley Rd was always going to be the primary exit route for Charlton fans post match. There really is no other viable option. The risk of allowing them to mix with home fans at the crossroads of Park Road and Holmesdale Road would almost certainly have resulted in serious disorder and innocent supporters being injured.
-------· Take the Charlton supporters along Park Road towards Selhurst Road post-match. This would not be viable, as it would disadvantage many thousands of home supporters from crossing the crossroads at Park Road, and would pose a threat to those home supporters who need to exit the stadium into Park Road. We tried this last season against Brighton, which resulted in a huge number of complaints from home supporters and compromised safety.
· Hold Charlton fans back in the stadium. This is not a preferred option unless in an emergency; and is one that is made in agreement with the Ground Safety Manager. Experience shows us that this is likely to result in further escalated disorder/criminal damage that is then difficult to manage owing to crowd density and risk of lower limb injury. Under these circumstances, with extensive damage having already been caused, I honestly felt that this would be the case; and a significant threat would have been present to public safety. Furthermore, experience of previous games has shown us that to hold fans back in Park Road for a short period, allows us the ability to manage crowd dynamics more effectively, with safer 'release valves' if required (i.e. opening up cordons).
· Feed Charlton fans toward Whitehorse Road and make them take the lengthy walk around South Norwood Hill. This is clearly unreasonable and resource intensive to manage.
Looking forward, should Crystal Palace FC remain in the Championship next season, I believe that work needs to be done with the club and the council to look at options to limit the risk of damage. This could include discussion around a Traffic Management Order in Sangley Rd for those few high risk games each season (i.e. Charlton, Millwall & Brighton). This would clear that road of vehicles and make the egress space much wider; which would cause less impact in Park Road, and enable egress to be managed more easily.
In conclusion, I deeply regret that you suffered at the hand of tactics deployed by me on this day. I sincerely hope that this letter has gone someway towards explaining why such extreme action was necessary. Again, I do sympathise that being held back in Park Road in an intense atmosphere must have been very unpleasant. However, in the circumstances at that time, I deemed this be the safest tactic for all concerned, in order minimise a real risk of personal harm.
there is no connection made just an assumption that somehow the aggro inside the game would somehow be resolved by containing all the fans outside makes no sense to me, they also fail to make the connection that their actions could have created a problem. Also disadvantaging home supporters.. didn't seem to be a problem at the Valley, somewhat inconsistent..
In a matter of a few minutes, disorder broke out, as Charlton fans became violent towards officers deployed at the head of that movement. As officers struggled to prevent this group breaching the cordon, they then did their best to manage the slow walk up to Norwood Junction. As a positive, I’m pleased to say that the tactic was enforced (with crowd dynamics closely monitored) for no longer than reasonably required, and people were kept safe. Sadly however, this was at the expense of others who were inconvenienced.
I was right at the front and saw no violence against officers. They totally misread the situation and the fact that the swell behind was pushing people into them. They overreacted and people, understandably, got angry, but I don't recall any violence. One copper in particular was doing his best to be aggressive, in contrast to the majority who seemed as bewildered as us as to what was going on; the senior copper just didn't seem to understand the situation at all and set the dogs on us at the front when we had no choice but to move forward because of the crowd behind us. Brilliant act of common sense that.
In terms of communication with those caught up in Park Road, the ground tannoy system was used to communicate with supporters both inside and outside the stadium; and officers were briefed to communicate face-to-face. I am disappointed if you felt that this wasn’t the case; and this is something that I have already picked up in subsequent de-briefs.
Just to confirm, I heard absolutely nothing other than what the coppers told me at the front line - and they knew little more than I did.
-------· Take the Charlton supporters along Park Road towards Selhurst Road post-match. This would not be viable, as it would disadvantage many thousands of home supporters from crossing the crossroads at Park Road, and would pose a threat to those home supporters who need to exit the stadium into Park Road. We tried this last season against Brighton, which resulted in a huge number of complaints from home supporters and compromised safety.
Didn't stop the police disadvantaging some of our fans when Millwall came to the valley
"As such, I cannot rule out the possibility of similar tactics being deployed in future. In previous matches against Millwall & Brighton there were no outbreaks of such disorder; one of which was subjected to the same hold back tactics. Sadly, in the case of this Charlton game however, we were clearly dealing with a group of mindless thugs"
So the police are saying we were worse than Millwall!
Flares yes - I saw them... broken seats and toilets - heard about them... missiles? problem groups of away fans should surely put on a fast track to the station? If it was a small group of known people then perhaps they get their own escort?
Perhaps CAFC should provide their own stewarding since it appears that if this is left to Police it is going to escalate year after year?
Flares yes - I saw them... broken seats and toilets - heard about them... missiles? problem groups of away fans should surely put on a fast track to the station? If it was a small group of known people then perhaps they get their own escort?
Perhaps CAFC should provide their own stewarding since it appears that if this is left to Police it is going to escalate year after year?
I believe this issue of self stewarding was raised at a FF meeting but unsure whether it was deemed workable....
Flares yes - I saw them... broken seats and toilets - heard about them... missiles? problem groups of away fans should surely put on a fast track to the station? If it was a small group of known people then perhaps they get their own escort?
Perhaps CAFC should provide their own stewarding since it appears that if this is left to Police it is going to escalate year after year?
There were Charlton stewards in the away end at Sell-out that day.
I went to 3 away games last season, Millwall, Palace and Brighton... my first away games for about five years.
At Millwall there were glass bottles coming over a fence thrown by Millwall fans while we were held back and flares again but a very simple escort to Surrey Quays after a small delay... At Brighton red and blue scarves mixed on a train etc.
And Selhurst - a complete shambles which needs addressing before we play them again next season. All this rubbish about intelligence, planning and then last minute switching needs challenging to avoid it being repeated.
Comments
Email from Police recieved today (24 May) after I had chased last week.
Part One
----------------------------------------
Dear Mr Hayes,
I am writing to you in response to an e'mail that you sent to Chief Superintendent Richard Wood on the 22nd February 2013. I can only apologise for the delay in receiving a response; unfortunately, for whatever reason, this has only just arrived with me.
In relation to the meeting that took place on the 21st and the performance of the police officers present, I'm afraid I am unable to comment, as I was out of the country at the time. I have cc'd this e'mail in to the Chief Inspector who runs the football unit at Croydon for his attention.
I was the match commander for that game, and I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time out to share your feedback and concerns, it really is much appreciated; I hope in this response to offer some context and clarity around the matters you have highlighted. I'm not familiar with John Powell, but please let me reassure you that I have been policing Crystal Palace for near on a decade, and I am one of the most senior advanced public order commanders in the country.
First and foremost, the policing measure of holding back Charlton fans in Park Road was not a pre-planned tactic. It was engineered as a last resort and in good faith, in response to intelligence and events that had occurred. Sadly, there were a minority of Charlton fans embedded within the wider cohort that were intent on committing crime and disorder. A number of crimes were committed during the game, including the dangerous setting off of flares and a huge amount of criminal damage to seating and toilets. Many pieces of wood from these seats became missiles and were thrown. Furthermore, it was the unanimous opinion of my ground commanders that day (who, like me, were very experienced public order commanders) that to not do something to regulate the egress of away fans (thereby allowing the vast majority to mix with home supporters near the ground or at Norwood Junction Railway Station) would almost certainly result in serious disorder/harm. To this end, whilst I fully accept the consequences of adopting such a tactic, particularly on those caught up in it, I had an honest held belief that this was the only viable option under the circumstances. To support the above, a public order wall was deployed across Park Road, to prevent either set of fans from engaging in disorder at the crossroads of Park Road and Holmesdale Road.
In a matter of a few minutes, disorder broke out, as Charlton fans became violent towards officers deployed at the head of that movement. As officers struggled to prevent this group breaching the cordon, they then did their best to manage the slow walk up to Norwood Junction. As a positive, I’m pleased to say that the tactic was enforced (with crowd dynamics closely monitored) for no longer than reasonably required, and people were kept safe. Sadly however, this was at the expense of others who were inconvenienced.
In terms of communication with those caught up in Park Road, the ground tannoy system was used to communicate with supporters both inside and outside the stadium; and officers were briefed to communicate face-to-face. I am disappointed if you felt that this wasn’t the case; and this is something that I have already picked up in subsequent de-briefs.
With regard to your question around 'marching all fans to one station', my strict instruction was that the cordon in Park Road near Whitehorse Lane was to be a discretionary cordon. It needed to exist to stop a mass movement; but the instruction was to let supporters through at the officers’ discretion on the ground (i.e. if an imminent breach of the peace was feared).
In relation to police dogs, their deployment in public order is a tactic that is carefully considered in formulating any tactical plan. Officers deployed with police dogs are well trained and practised in such events. Unfortunately, owing to the sudden nature of the breakaway of Charlton fans, officers were placed on the 'back foot' and were consequently forced to work in a tight space and close proximity to police dogs, as a result of which some injuries were sustained.
In the interests of continuous improvement, at the conclusion of the event, a hot de-brief was chaired by myself at South Norwood Police Station with the principle commanders. At that de-brief, it was collectively agreed that the brief hold back of Charlton fans was contributory to the fact that public safety was maintained. Had the aforementioned tactics not been employed, then no-one could see how serious violence would have been avoided either immediately outside the stadium or at Norwood Junction. Further meetings have also taken place since in order to capture what went well, what didn’t go so well and how we could do more to improve the delivery of this tactic if it had to be used again, which it has successfully against Brighton in the play-off semi-final. As we prepare for next season, I can assure you that I will include your feedback in further planning discussion.
Moving forwards, the geography of the stadium is a challenge at Selhurst Park; particularly for those few games of the year where significant numbers of fans are aiming for Norwood Junction. As such, I cannot rule out the possibility of similar tactics being deployed in future. In previous matches against Millwall & Brighton there were no outbreaks of such disorder; one of which was subjected to the same hold back tactics. Sadly, in the case of this Charlton game however, we were clearly dealing with a group of mindless thugs embedded within the wider crowd, who were clearly intent on committing crime & disorder. I do not agree that the hold back was the cause of disorder but simply an opportunity (I draw evidence again from the disorder and damage exercised by Charlton fans inside the stadium and the 'bragging' of such on social network sites).
It may at this point be useful for me to share with you some of the alternative options that I considered when making decisions around post match deployments in order to support my overarching intention of keeping people safe;
Sangley Rd was always going to be the primary exit route for Charlton fans post match. There really is no other viable option. The risk of allowing them to mix with home fans at the crossroads of Park Road and Holmesdale Road would almost certainly have resulted in serious disorder and innocent supporters being injured.
The only alternative options available were;
Part two
-------· Take the Charlton supporters along Park Road towards Selhurst Road post-match. This would not be viable, as it would disadvantage many thousands of home supporters from crossing the crossroads at Park Road, and would pose a threat to those home supporters who need to exit the stadium into Park Road. We tried this last season against Brighton, which resulted in a huge number of complaints from home supporters and compromised safety.
· Hold Charlton fans back in the stadium. This is not a preferred option unless in an emergency; and is one that is made in agreement with the Ground Safety Manager. Experience shows us that this is likely to result in further escalated disorder/criminal damage that is then difficult to manage owing to crowd density and risk of lower limb injury. Under these circumstances, with extensive damage having already been caused, I honestly felt that this would be the case; and a significant threat would have been present to public safety. Furthermore, experience of previous games has shown us that to hold fans back in Park Road for a short period, allows us the ability to manage crowd dynamics more effectively, with safer 'release valves' if required (i.e. opening up cordons).
· Feed Charlton fans toward Whitehorse Road and make them take the lengthy walk around South Norwood Hill. This is clearly unreasonable and resource intensive to manage.
Looking forward, should Crystal Palace FC remain in the Championship next season, I believe that work needs to be done with the club and the council to look at options to limit the risk of damage. This could include discussion around a Traffic Management Order in Sangley Rd for those few high risk games each season (i.e. Charlton, Millwall & Brighton). This would clear that road of vehicles and make the egress space much wider; which would cause less impact in Park Road, and enable egress to be managed more easily.
In conclusion, I deeply regret that you suffered at the hand of tactics deployed by me on this day. I sincerely hope that this letter has gone someway towards explaining why such extreme action was necessary. Again, I do sympathise that being held back in Park Road in an intense atmosphere must have been very unpleasant. However, in the circumstances at that time, I deemed this be the safest tactic for all concerned, in order minimise a real risk of personal harm.
Yours sincerely,
Adrian Roberts
Borough Commander – Kensington & Chelsea Police.
Didn't stop the police disadvantaging some of our fans when Millwall came to the valley
I've replied to the Commander about the comms and other things and made suggestions for next time.
We shall see
So the police are saying we were worse than Millwall!
Perhaps CAFC should provide their own stewarding since it appears that if this is left to Police it is going to escalate year after year?
At Millwall there were glass bottles coming over a fence thrown by Millwall fans while we were held back and flares again but a very simple escort to Surrey Quays after a small delay... At Brighton red and blue scarves mixed on a train etc.
And Selhurst - a complete shambles which needs addressing before we play them again next season. All this rubbish about intelligence, planning and then last minute switching needs challenging to avoid it being repeated.