These are my views. I was not representing CAFC. There were other Charlton fans from the Fans Forum and the CAS Trust.
In my opinion the Police were surprised at how many people turned up and quite how annoyed and angry the local residents were.
Having some articulate and vocal Charlton fans willing to challenge what the police were saying wasn't meant to be on the agenda either.
As well as five police officers there were two CPFC employees on the top table and I would estimate 30 members of the public.
Richard Wood chaired the meeting. He is the acting Chief Superindendent for Croydon having come over from Greenwich on 4 February, two days after the match in question.
The officer in charge on the day Superindent Roberts wasn't there which wasn't a great start but police officers do have other things to do.
CS Wood said that the policing was organised by two of the most experienced officers in terms of policing football in the country.
Inspector Martin (IM), who seemed to be the highest ranking officer involved on the day present, started off by explaining at length what happened and why.
Martin said that they "always knew it was a high risk game" and was one of only three during the season, the others being Brighton and Millwall.
IM said that they "were not taken by surprised" as they had intelligence that there would be flares and objects thrown.
IM described the policing as a "complete success as no one was injured" although he then went on to say "officers were hurt and £1000s worth of damage caused" Residents were less than impressed with his definition of "success" and this wasn't the last time he appeared to contradict himself.
The decision to kettle (my term) the fans was made by Superindent Roberts. When asked by me when he made that decision DS Wood said that questions would be taken later.
IM said that they had "learnt from Brighton" and were concerned about children and elderly being injured.
IM then said there were "no other options" than to take fans up Sangley Rd but then said a few moments later that he and CPFC has considered other options. By this time he was looking, IMHO, more and more under pressure.
IM said that they had the Tactical Support Group (the riot squad) available and that they needed police dogs. He also said that CAFC fans had been allowed to move to Norwood junction in a "slow, controlled way".
I then put the various points raised on here and in letters and emails sent to CAFC to IM including letters from Clem's sister and CAFC999.
I also said that I had a letter from a Charlton supporting former police superintendent who was at the game and had been very critical of the police operation. DS Wood seemed surprised by this as I don't think they were expecting Charlton fans to be so critical. He wasn't aware of any complaints from us and asked for copies of letters/emails.
Inspector Martin didn't address any of my points. He claimed that CAFC fans had been told what would happen via tannoy messages which I refuted. The CPFC stadium manager, who kept his head down all night and said as little as possible didn't respond when I said there had been no notice of the kettling.
The residents then raised a number of valid complaints which can be summerised as "who's going to pay for the damage to my car, fence, window?" and "why funnel people down a narrow residential road".
There were some distressing stories of damage and costs to local people as well as one tale of a small girl with ADHD and other conditions who was very distressed.
IM constantly said that keeping fans in the ground was not an option as there had been £8k of damage and 212 broken seats. Local residents were less than sympathetic and at least one said "so it's ok for our property to be damaged" and another said "you get the money from the tickets". IM kept looking to the CPFC stadium manager for some back up or clarification but none came.
IM kept saying the layout of the stadium didn't allow for keeping fans inside without explaining this.
The discussion went along these lines for a while with IM saying hat police wouldn't accept liability criminal damage. Locals thought the were negligent but they were, IMHO fobbed off with an address to write to at Scotland yard
IM kept on the "no other option theme" and that keeping people in the ground or taking them out along main road to Norwood Jnc wasn't an option. residents, CPFC and CAFC fans all challenged this.
IM also kept hinting at parking restriction orders ie no parking in Sangley road at all. The residents didn't react as I think IM thought they would to this implied threat but instead just said "where will be move our cars to?"
The mother of the ADHD child who is a Millwall fan said that MFC fans were taken up Whitehorse lane last time they played there.
One palace fan from Maidstone said that they had parked in Sangley road so when they heard that Park Rd would be closed to Palace fans they had left 30 mins before the final whistle in order to reach there car but the police had already blocked the road and wouldn't let them through. When they did there was £1300 of damage.
Office Dorens who is the CPFC police intelligence office then said that CAFC fans had been allowed out after the last time we played CPFC in 2005. I challenged this saying wasn't the last time we played them and we'd been kept in. I and others said that we'd been allowed to exit via park rd and the main road in 2007.
Dorens also said that a charlton fan had had his face "slashed" at the last game before this year. I challenged him on this as in fact a CPFC fan wearing a ski glove had punched a CAFC fan from behind a police fan and cut the CAFC fans face.
I will say that IMHO Dorens was less than impressive either in the public meeting or when I spoke to him 1 - 2- 1 afterwards. He said that he didn't want 3000 CAFC fans there but CPFC just wanted the money. He also said that it would be only 1000 ST holder for us next time. But he also said that he was a lowly rank and passed the buck onto his superiors when pushed on officers over reacting or panicking.
The CAFC Police intelligence officer Jason Evans spoke about 200 high risk CAFC fans drinking in Penge pre-game who were then escorted to the game. asked why were they let in he said that they were not banned and hadnt committed any offence so couldn't be stopped.
why have a meeting? just for them to say they did a pretty good job. everyone else disagrees. then say go and write a letter to someone who might be able to do something care about it.
In summary the meeting produced very little in terms of resolution or suggestions for change.
CPFC seemed to have the stance of "as long as their no smashing up our seats we're not interested".
The police seemed tunnel vision on the hooligan threat and had over looked the criminal damage issues or concerns of local residents.
My suggestion that the local residents be allowed to join the Safety Advisory Group went down well with the locals but IMHO like a lead balloon with CPFC and the Police.
The police were surprised by how vociferous the complaints were and at their "no other option" stance being blown away.
Really it should have been two meetings. One for residents and one for CAFC fans and our PIO thought the same. He said he'd like to meet with CAFC fans over the issues and talk things through. I will take this up with CAFC. The flare issue for example needs to be dealt with as whatever people may the fines are in five figures as the FA see it as a big issue.
how come nearly every other club including ourselfs (wrote pre march 16th) can handle a load of drunk rival away fans but they can't? "next time your only getting 1000 season ticket holders!".... get a grip.
I did feel for DS Wood as he'd joined two days after the game and he had a tough job chairing the meeting. Then again I'm sure that as a police officer he's had tougher and more dangerous situations.
I feel that I didn't get the answers to the questions people wanted. I raised the issues but didn't get and couldn't force the answers. Frustrating for me but sorry to anyone who hoped for more.
I do think there is a big opportunity to build a relationship with our PIO Jason Evans who seemed a lot more open to ideas than his palace counterpart. OK, it was a palace operation and IMHO a palace cock up so Dorens was more likely to be on the back foot but the difference was noticeable.
Thanks for taking the trouble to go & report Henry. No surprises there & as I said elsewhere, they may well limit our next game there to S/T holders only.
Actually, there is one surprise for me. Didn't realise we had 200 high risk supporters.
Sad that the police reaction/response in the meeting doesn't surprise me one bit. And thanks to Ben and anyone else there that put the questions they couldn't answer properly to them.
As a Charlton fan I'm more than irritated reading that, but if I was an affected local resident I'd be absolutely livid.
Did they make any comment as to what they may do next year? Will they let us know in advance? Will they traet us like human beings? Do they realise that the way they traeted us means that many decent fans won't go next year and therefore the proportion of of our less desirable fans will be higher? The law of unintended consequences is that there will be more trouble next year
Comments
Clearly says public meeting
In my opinion the Police were surprised at how many people turned up and quite how annoyed and angry the local residents were.
Having some articulate and vocal Charlton fans willing to challenge what the police were saying wasn't meant to be on the agenda either.
As well as five police officers there were two CPFC employees on the top table and I would estimate 30 members of the public.
Richard Wood chaired the meeting. He is the acting Chief Superindendent for Croydon having come over from Greenwich on 4 February, two days after the match in question.
The officer in charge on the day Superindent Roberts wasn't there which wasn't a great start but police officers do have other things to do.
CS Wood said that the policing was organised by two of the most experienced officers in terms of policing football in the country.
Inspector Martin (IM), who seemed to be the highest ranking officer involved on the day present, started off by explaining at length what happened and why.
Martin said that they "always knew it was a high risk game" and was one of only three during the season, the others being Brighton and Millwall.
IM said that they "were not taken by surprised" as they had intelligence that there would be flares and objects thrown.
IM described the policing as a "complete success as no one was injured" although he then went on to say "officers were hurt and £1000s worth of damage caused" Residents were less than impressed with his definition of "success" and this wasn't the last time he appeared to contradict himself.
The decision to kettle (my term) the fans was made by Superindent Roberts. When asked by me when he made that decision DS Wood said that questions would be taken later.
IM said that they had "learnt from Brighton" and were concerned about children and elderly being injured.
IM then said there were "no other options" than to take fans up Sangley Rd but then said a few moments later that he and CPFC has considered other options. By this time he was looking, IMHO, more and more under pressure.
IM said that they had the Tactical Support Group (the riot squad) available and that they needed police dogs. He also said that CAFC fans had been allowed to move to Norwood junction in a "slow, controlled way".
I then put the various points raised on here and in letters and emails sent to CAFC to IM including letters from Clem's sister and CAFC999.
I also said that I had a letter from a Charlton supporting former police superintendent who was at the game and had been very critical of the police operation. DS Wood seemed surprised by this as I don't think they were expecting Charlton fans to be so critical. He wasn't aware of any complaints from us and asked for copies of letters/emails.
Inspector Martin didn't address any of my points. He claimed that CAFC fans had been told what would happen via tannoy messages which I refuted. The CPFC stadium manager, who kept his head down all night and said as little as possible didn't respond when I said there had been no notice of the kettling.
The residents then raised a number of valid complaints which can be summerised as "who's going to pay for the damage to my car, fence, window?" and "why funnel people down a narrow residential road".
There were some distressing stories of damage and costs to local people as well as one tale of a small girl with ADHD and other conditions who was very distressed.
IM constantly said that keeping fans in the ground was not an option as there had been £8k of damage and 212 broken seats. Local residents were less than sympathetic and at least one said "so it's ok for our property to be damaged" and another said "you get the money from the tickets". IM kept looking to the CPFC stadium manager for some back up or clarification but none came.
IM kept saying the layout of the stadium didn't allow for keeping fans inside without explaining this.
The discussion went along these lines for a while with IM saying hat police wouldn't accept liability criminal damage. Locals thought the were negligent but they were, IMHO fobbed off with an address to write to at Scotland yard
IM also kept hinting at parking restriction orders ie no parking in Sangley road at all. The residents didn't react as I think IM thought they would to this implied threat but instead just said "where will be move our cars to?"
The mother of the ADHD child who is a Millwall fan said that MFC fans were taken up Whitehorse lane last time they played there.
One palace fan from Maidstone said that they had parked in Sangley road so when they heard that Park Rd would be closed to Palace fans they had left 30 mins before the final whistle in order to reach there car but the police had already blocked the road and wouldn't let them through. When they did there was £1300 of damage.
Office Dorens who is the CPFC police intelligence office then said that CAFC fans had been allowed out after the last time we played CPFC in 2005. I challenged this saying wasn't the last time we played them and we'd been kept in. I and others said that we'd been allowed to exit via park rd and the main road in 2007.
Dorens also said that a charlton fan had had his face "slashed" at the last game before this year. I challenged him on this as in fact a CPFC fan wearing a ski glove had punched a CAFC fan from behind a police fan and cut the CAFC fans face.
I will say that IMHO Dorens was less than impressive either in the public meeting or when I spoke to him 1 - 2- 1 afterwards. He said that he didn't want 3000 CAFC fans there but CPFC just wanted the money. He also said that it would be only 1000 ST holder for us next time. But he also said that he was a lowly rank and passed the buck onto his superiors when pushed on officers over reacting or panicking.
The CAFC Police intelligence officer Jason Evans spoke about 200 high risk CAFC fans drinking in Penge pre-game who were then escorted to the game. asked why were they let in he said that they were not banned and hadnt committed any offence so couldn't be stopped.
why have a meeting? just for them to say they did a pretty good job. everyone else disagrees.
then say go and write a letter to someone who might
be able to do somethingcare about it.CPFC seemed to have the stance of "as long as their no smashing up our seats we're not interested".
The police seemed tunnel vision on the hooligan threat and had over looked the criminal damage issues or concerns of local residents.
My suggestion that the local residents be allowed to join the Safety Advisory Group went down well with the locals but IMHO like a lead balloon with CPFC and the Police.
The police were surprised by how vociferous the complaints were and at their "no other option" stance being blown away.
Really it should have been two meetings. One for residents and one for CAFC fans and our PIO thought the same. He said he'd like to meet with CAFC fans over the issues and talk things through. I will take this up with CAFC. The flare issue for example needs to be dealt with as whatever people may the fines are in five figures as the FA see it as a big issue.
Don't think that will happen at all as I think Palace, like every other club, want the money.
I feel that I didn't get the answers to the questions people wanted. I raised the issues but didn't get and couldn't force the answers. Frustrating for me but sorry to anyone who hoped for more.
I do think there is a big opportunity to build a relationship with our PIO Jason Evans who seemed a lot more open to ideas than his palace counterpart. OK, it was a palace operation and IMHO a palace cock up so Dorens was more likely to be on the back foot but the difference was noticeable.
He also said "we've got 4,000k Leeds fans coming on Saturday. These people (local residents) don't know that".
I felt like saying "while didn't you tell them then" but didn't
Arseholes.
Actually, there is one surprise for me. Didn't realise we had 200 high risk supporters.
There was also a plain clothes detective there looking for any evidence.
He said the vandalism was being taking so seriously that the case had been taken over by Scotland Yard.
How this marries up with the operation being a "success" I'm not sure.
As a Charlton fan I'm more than irritated reading that, but if I was an affected local resident I'd be absolutely livid.
The law of unintended consequences is that there will be more trouble next year