I appreciate watching the professional game has changed over the years. I did not witness Saturdays' "trouble" but in terms of crowd behaviour in comparison to occurrences in the 70's & 80"s the events do appear modest in scale. Had the internet been available in that period I dread to think of the dialogue exchanged.
Improved facilities & crowd management have limited the opportunities of those wishing to "add an edge" to their tribal experience. With consequent improved crowd behaviour any incident(s) will always gain greater attention but there has always been elements attached to league clubs who seek to enhance their enjoyment of "the game" beyond the match being played out on the pitch.
No matter whose "colours" they wear the fact any "extra curricular activity" may impact on the safety, well being or enjoyment of others has never been and never will be considered by those who participate in such activities and for many (like some miscreant child) any indignant/ critical reposte seems to often affirm even heighten the "testosterone rush".
In truth I suspect many of us would have little problem with the nature of "a harder element" of support being provided for the team on the proviso it did not involve racial abuse, violence, vandalism and /or reckless behaviour.
The absence of such elements are values most of us live our lives by and there never has been and never will be a reason for such values to be thrown out the window in the name of supporting a football club.
Smashing stadium seating is vandalism. Unless it presented some life threatening impediment there can be no justification for such an action. Forget tribalism it was a cowardly anonymous act of base wanton self indulgence - no more - no less. To then dispatch the debris of such endeavours into a crowd of your OWN supporters merely reinforces the selfish recklessness of the action.
Taking a smokebomb or flare to a crowded football match is beyond foolish. Igniting such incendiary/ chemical devices and launching them indiscriminately inside a crowded stadia with the inherent potential for panic is criminal endangerment.
The events at Millwall have, for the time being, passed without apparently any serious consequence but that has has nothing to do with perpetrators.
Whatever response such events generate in the future we will have to see.
It is probably time to move on but I suspect there will be many who will be watching with a closer interest as to whether Saturday was a one off or the start of a changing dynamic within the support for the club. I do wonder what any potential future investors may conclude.
However as we move on can we please do away with the false bravado such incidents seem to generate. It is complete and utter b****cks. As anyone who witnessed the excesses of the 70"s and 80's knows only to well such events display anything but bravado being normally perpetated by mobs seizing on any (normally completely innocent) individual they can get their hands on.
Those who seem happy to endorse such actions should think again. There are elements who will feel empowered by your "tacit" support and who will seek to escalate such behaviour. Next time may not end without injury and sadly it is more often than not the innocent bystander that suffers the consequences.
Finally can we please do away with all the pathetic insults to those members who have expressed their grave concerns at the events of the weekend. For most it is not a question of personal safety or fear it is quite simply the wish to position the pastime that they so greatly enjoy on a personal and often shared family basis in line with the same values they live the rest of their lives by.
On what possible basis do people think they have the right to impact that?
Grapevine49
Abso-bloody-lutely spot on, and articulated brilliantly. Well said Grapevine.
As usual: 'Hate', 'Scum', 'Them' and 'Us'. Throwing things, spitting, being generally obnoxious. All so predictable. All crap and unhelpful. Meanwhile, the fans face ever-increasing prices at the turnstile, ever-more-remote Boards of 'Directors', police who are either absent, or when not, are quick to crack heads, and a segregation at football grounds, designed by politicians, that serve only to remove any humanity, and merely fuel hostility further. Who remembers 'Fans United' at the Goldstone Ground? I do. Joy, Unity, Success.
This was my first trip to millwall, and personally found it less intimidating than a lot of places I have been such as burnley, Cardiff, Birmingham etc. On the way out me and a m8 were pointed out by some chavy millwall but we just walked straight past them, gave no aggro... Got no aggro, they laughed at us for not giving anything back, then we laughed all the way to London bridge at their lack of future prospects in life, I have never hated millwall, now I just feel sorry for the majority of their fans who are decent people who get a bad name for a few individuals who feel the need to step into their fathers boots in an age were it is no longer and thankfully so part of society
Sorry, but I thought it was a great day. If anything summed up their support it was the skinny ginger kid in the millwall shirt in the Dockers upper tier. All wannabe tough guys assuming that we would do what we what we have always done and run away. Well we did run, but towards them and they couldn't believe it. That doesn't make me a thug it's standing alongside other Charlton fans and refusing to be bullied by these scum any longer. If they come in the home areas at ours I hope we stand up to them again and if you don't like it stay at home.
Finally can we please do away with all the pathetic insults to those members who have expressed their grave concerns at the events of the weekend. For most it is not a question of personal safety or fear it is quite simply the wish to position the pastime that they so greatly enjoy on a personal and often shared family basis in line with the same values they live the rest of their lives by....... A splendid summary, my sentiments too.
The dirty protest was truly disgusting, that is the sort of stuff we don't need. Leave that sort of thing to scousers
One thing, a Huddersfield fan gobbed at me after the game the other week. I only didn't whack him because I couldn't reach and he did it using three innocent huddersfield supporters as some sort of human shield. Singing and winding each other up is one thing and if you don't have the emotional intelligence to deal with that then you probably shouldn't go to football but spraying bodily fluids at people is just cause for a thump in the head in my book
Deary me. One person (the seat thrower) definitely went too far and then 2(?) others debatably went too far by using a flare/smoke bomb. I don't understand how that causes such a massive negative reaction about our crowd and fans as a whole?
Also - "can we please do away with all the pathetic insults to those members who have expressed their grave concerns at the events of the weekend. For most it is not a question of personal safety or fear it is quite simply the wish to position the pastime that they so greatly enjoy on a personal and often shared family basis in line with the same values they live the rest of their lives by" - is a lovely little line but what about the same courtesy in return then? Apparently only people with incorrect grammar and spelling enjoyed Saturday's atmosphere and we're all terrible humans who are desperately trying to emulate millwall with no regard for the enjoyment of others?
I suspect the shit rumour comes from the same source who talked about flares nearly hitting ball boys, 12 year olds getting punched/stabbed and club shops getting smashed up. No concrete evidence for any of it that I've seen......
As often is the case, I find myself torn over all of this.
On the one hand I am with NLA. For years we have been cowed by the Spanners fearsome reputation, not just us as fans but as a Club. The record against them is woeful. Why, they are not supermen, they have not had on average superior players than us, yet invariably they beat us, home and away?
Yes there have been exceptions. We all remember the game in the snow. There are others but the good memories like the victories are few and far between.
On the other hand we also define our own support to some extent by how our footballing rivals deal with us and the history of trouble caused by Spanners fans, the fights and the occupation of our end and the "just getting out with your life", tales are, as time goes by, maybe a little exaggerated. I am sure I can match many that have been mentioned on here.
It is about time we collectively grew a pair and stood up to them. I am delighted that we went to their gaff and gave them some back.....verbals I mean. That our team lead by our Legend also stood up to them and Home advantage and didn't bow the knee. This says much about our club getting back to where Curbs left it.
I am not overly concerned about threats of reprisals coming our way at Home because as many have said, there have always been threats and intimidation and attacks aimed at us, whom they call Anoraks. I'll put my faith in the Club ensuring that ordinary fans can watch the game with passion and with needle, without being confronted by bully-boy tactics. There is no guarantee of course that things won't happen. Things have always happened.
Smoke bombs and flares though, not the best move in my opinion and a bit too Nigel for my taste apart from the potential consequences if somebody had got injured. As for ripping out a seat - wrong but that still puts us on the debit side to The Spanners at about 1000 to 1.
I'd like to give some respect to SLL who came on here and made his points in a reasonable way. If our games in future are more balanced in terms of passion off the pitch, that has to be a good thing.
Grape vine, did you go on Sat? I can't quite tell from your post?
Admittedly left my red and white scarf at home, but I experienced no bother at all. And that includes sinking 4 pints in the 5 Belles before the game, sitting in the lower tier and being highly entertained by winding up Mill wall fans (the game was awful), leaving the ground after, walking to Surrey Q with a load of Mill wall and getting on a tube. No-one tried to hit me. Nothing kicked off.
A couple of p*ssed up kids over stepped the mark, by stupidly vandalising a seat etc. That's all. You get them everywhere.
I experienced far more intimidation after Palace at home this season when I had to pick my boy up and leg it outside the station.
Don't agree with vandalism so the seat is a no-no but the rest is fair game as far as I'm concerned. It's great that our lot are showing some passion and getting behind the lads. Long may it continue as far as I'm concerned. You can tell from the player interviews that they appreciate it as well. JJ and Ben seemed well pleased with it all.
Sorry, but I thought it was a great day. If anything summed up their support it was the skinny ginger kid in the millwall shirt in the Dockers upper tier. All wannabe tough guys assuming that we would do what we what we have always done and run away. Well we did run, but towards them and they couldn't believe it. That doesn't make me a thug it's standing alongside other Charlton fans and refusing to be bullied by these scum any longer. If they come in the home areas at ours I hope we stand up to them again and if you don't like it stay at home.
Lol.......the majority on here want the 'trouble makers' to stay at home......the people who are taking joy in unsavoury incidents. If your view was followed the crowd would be circa 400!
There was shit wiped or smeared is the better description in one of the cubicles in the toilet as I saw it with my own eyes. Unless it was really smelly mud? God knows why, but I know what I saw. And I didn't think the smoke bomb or flare was close to hurting anyone either. Probably made the poor ball boy jump but it wasnt going to damage him. Unlike the seat would have done!
Laughable thread - the usual righteous than thou guff from people who want to go to football and be in the passionate atmosphere etc etc but do bugger all to create it. You can't have your cake and eat it. Boil everything that happens at football down to logical conclusions and there is no rational reason for a lot of it. This is a discussion board at the end of the day so fair enough, chew the arse out of it but come on, this is a local derby football match we're talking about, not a primary school field trip.
Comments
Meanwhile, the fans face ever-increasing prices at the turnstile, ever-more-remote Boards of 'Directors', police who are either absent, or when not, are quick to crack heads, and a segregation at football grounds, designed by politicians, that serve only to remove any humanity, and merely fuel hostility further.
Who remembers 'Fans United' at the Goldstone Ground? I do. Joy, Unity, Success.
Finally can we please do away with all the pathetic insults to those members who have expressed their grave concerns at the events of the weekend. For most it is not a question of personal safety or fear it is quite simply the wish to position the pastime that they so greatly enjoy on a personal and often shared family basis in line with the same values they live the rest of their lives by....... A splendid summary, my sentiments too.
One thing, a Huddersfield fan gobbed at me after the game the other week. I only didn't whack him because I couldn't reach and he did it using three innocent huddersfield supporters as some sort of human shield. Singing and winding each other up is one thing and if you don't have the emotional intelligence to deal with that then you probably shouldn't go to football but spraying bodily fluids at people is just cause for a thump in the head in my book
Also - "can we please do away with all the pathetic insults to those members who have expressed their grave concerns at the events of the weekend. For most it is not a question of personal safety or fear it is quite simply the wish to position the pastime that they so greatly enjoy on a personal and often shared family basis in line with the same values they live the rest of their lives by" - is a lovely little line but what about the same courtesy in return then? Apparently only people with incorrect grammar and spelling enjoyed Saturday's atmosphere and we're all terrible humans who are desperately trying to emulate millwall with no regard for the enjoyment of others?
On the one hand I am with NLA. For years we have been cowed by the Spanners fearsome reputation, not just us as fans but as a Club. The record against them is woeful. Why, they are not supermen, they have not had on average superior players than us, yet invariably they beat us, home and away?
Yes there have been exceptions. We all remember the game in the snow. There are others but the good memories like the victories are few and far between.
On the other hand we also define our own support to some extent by how our footballing rivals deal with us and the history of trouble caused by Spanners fans, the fights and the occupation of our end and the "just getting out with your life", tales are, as time goes by, maybe a little exaggerated. I am sure I can match many that have been mentioned on here.
It is about time we collectively grew a pair and stood up to them. I am delighted that we went to their gaff and gave them some back.....verbals I mean. That our team lead by our Legend also stood up to them and Home advantage and didn't bow the knee. This says much about our club getting back to where Curbs left it.
I am not overly concerned about threats of reprisals coming our way at Home because as many have said, there have always been threats and intimidation and attacks aimed at us, whom they call Anoraks. I'll put my faith in the Club ensuring that ordinary fans can watch the game with passion and with needle, without being confronted by bully-boy tactics. There is no guarantee of course that things won't happen. Things have always happened.
Smoke bombs and flares though, not the best move in my opinion and a bit too Nigel for my taste apart from the potential consequences if somebody had got injured. As for ripping out a seat - wrong but that still puts us on the debit side to The Spanners at about 1000 to 1.
I'd like to give some respect to SLL who came on here and made his points in a reasonable way. If our games in future are more balanced in terms of passion off the pitch, that has to be a good thing.
Admittedly left my red and white scarf at home, but I experienced no bother at all. And that includes sinking 4 pints in the 5 Belles before the game, sitting in the lower tier and being highly entertained by winding up Mill wall fans (the game was awful), leaving the ground after, walking to Surrey Q with a load of Mill wall and getting on a tube. No-one tried to hit me. Nothing kicked off.
A couple of p*ssed up kids over stepped the mark, by stupidly vandalising a seat etc. That's all. You get them everywhere.
I experienced far more intimidation after Palace at home this season when I had to pick my boy up and leg it outside the station.
Sounds to me as if people are trying to get their excuses in early for not turning up in March.
Why don't you just say you won't be going rather than blaming it on a couple of idiots throwing chairs and things on the pitch.
Can't believe there's an 18 page thread about a flare & seat. Huge over reaction.