I know Henry is a huge fan of Waggy and will defend him to the hilt , but people around us in the East last night were tearing their hair out re his play. Same old gesturing to everyone when he felt he was fouled etc and apart from scoring the only goal ( agree he took it well) feeling was he did little.
Both Waggy & Green have their plus points and their minus points ( if there is such a thing!) and TBH neither would be shoe ins for me. Pity we have so few options....
Second point is regarding going out of the Cup at the first attempt( yes, it sometimes feels like we ARE trying to concentrate on the league !) Someone posted that we should be looking " to sweat out as much money as possible from a Cup run" but am I right in thinking that Airman ( and others) have continually pointed out that unless a team reaches the final stages of such , they're more likely to lose money than gain it from their participation eg stewarding /floodlighting costs etc. ?
So as someone who didn't go, the impression that the squad is paper thin and not up to it
I don't have any issues with our starting 11 at this level. However, in terms of decent replacements when the inevitable injuries and suspensions kick in, I think we are short at this level.
Imo an injury to BWP or Yann will leave us struggling as will an injury to either fullback.
No one we have brought in is a serious contender to break into the starting eleven. Cook maybe in time but the other two don't look likely to displace Solly or Stephens etc.
Not sure that we can address it either. No significant money to bring anyone in.
Hopefully somehow we'll find some cheap loan deals.
and apart from scoring the only goal ( agree he took it well)
erm, it was looking to go wide of the far post until it took a huge deflection off a defender and beat the keeper on the near post so yes, well done for having a shot but he did not take it well. Sorry Fanny.
You could copy and paste any of the comments to our early round cup defeats over the last 25 years and they would read exactly the same as this thread whether we had supposedly strong squads or not.
The fact that we only drew over 90 mins at home to a L1 team does not necessarily mean the squad is poor - it's just reflective of a bunch of blokes who don't play enough as individuals and with each other as a team - it's bound to be disjointed and there are probably a few players who fall foul of trying too hard in an effort to impress.
SCP displays many similar managerial traits to Curbs including not prioritising the League Cup - if the overall league outcome is satisfactory then I will not be complaining. Without the money needed for 3 or 4 quality players then the goal has to be survival this year so I think Powell's right not to gamble too many first teamers on an unimportant fixture.
We just seemed to be so depressed as supporters...
I know I'm rose tinted, and I am, I am very happy bloke and will forgive Charlton almost anything... but to see people coming on here moaning and crying about a bog standard cup game that is irrelevant to us with a reserve strength team, days after the first team just did fulham at fulham and Lisbon at Lisbon... I just don't get it.
And i don't get why you don't support someone else either, Charlton are going to be terrible a lot of the time, thats us, that what you get... this season is survival priority number one, anything else a bonus... but of course that won't be enough for plenty of the 'supporters'...
If this is the reaction to something that doesn't matter, imagine as the first set of boos ring out when we blow something that does matter ...
"A bog standard cup game that is irrelevant to us". Sorry, I just don't get it.
Agreed you don't support Charlton if you want to be a glory boy basking in the limelight of watching your team win loads of trophies. But don't you want any chance of success? If you do, then realistically the best chance of that is going to be a cup run in either of the cups, and of these, the League Cup offers the greatest possibility as many of the Premiership sides put out under strength teams.
I am sick and tired of seeing Charlton not taking this competition seriously and continually putting out our reserve players. I am fed up seeing teams from leagues below us out play us year after year because we have a reserve side out.
All I can say is when the Nigels won at Moan Utd last year, I wonder if their fans thought it was irrelevant?
So as someone who didn't go, the impression that the squad is paper thin and not up to it
I don't have any issues with our starting 11 at this level. However, in terms of decent replacements when the inevitable injuries and suspensions kick in, I think we are short at this level.
Imo an injury to BWP or Yann will leave us struggling as will an injury to either fullback.
No one we have brought in is a serious contender to break into the starting eleven. Cook maybe in time but the other two don't look likely to displace Solly or Stephens etc.
Not sure that we can address it either. No significant money to bring anyone in.
Hopefully somehow we'll find some cheap loan deals.
yep thats where we are ... a strong first eleven in my eyes, and also one that is rested after last night ...
we have some issues and don't have great tremendous strength in depth, but across a lot of areas we are 'ok' ...
I'm surprised people are expecting more, we've had investment problems, almost melt down if you listen to the insiders, top level changes...
we have kept our core players and they are fresh and raring to go, Powell will have them right where they need to be on Saturday, big away support and maybe a cocky Birmingham, you never know...
Either way lets support the boys even if we get tonked, I'm starting to get why the Aussies call us winging poms
These cup matches are usually depressing affairs but overall this was not too bad. The major plus for me was Cook,looked a class act, Smith shows promise but is too raw for this level at present. However the back four were poor, I thought Wilson was outstanding for Stevenage last season but he looked all over the place and gave away a poor penalty, neither Taylor nor Cort impressed and I wonder if either have enough pace for the Championship. I was surprised Hollands played the whole match as he did not look match fit and had to spend too much time covering Kirker who may be too much of a luxury to be allowed to play regularly.. I agree that these games should involve fringe players but if one of our major strikers had played from the start,surely we would have won in normal time, extra time was the last thing needed so close to the start of the season. Not great selection by the manager although it is difficult to have a match such as this taking place before the start of the season.
Fanny, that people in the East were slagging off Waggy doesn't surprise me but nor does it prove anything.
Waggy scored. End of. Waggy was playing out of his normal position (up front), Green was in his favoured position. Green had numerous chances set up for him, many by Waggy but Green wasted them. Waggy played for the team, Green played for himself. Waggy was ironed out by a shocking tackle right in front of the east stand but heaven forbid that he should moan about a refs decision. He should follow the example of him manager and stay calm and collected. Oh, hang on a minute Powell got sent off (again) so lets hear some criticism of Chris. No, didn't think so.
Waggy didn't have a great game and he can certainly play better than he did but some will slag him regardless.
We just seemed to be so depressed as supporters...
I think the expectation of 3 or 4 quality signings that would improve the team and push us on in the Championship is the main cause of this. It has been a frustrating summer that has only produced three signings that are only squad players at best (hopefully they prove me wrong). It has been hard to sit back and watch other teams make signings whilst we are suffering, especially the two teams that came up with us!
As for last night, I don't agree with Henry in calling it a scratch team that was put out. 6 of the team last night had a major contribution in getting us promoted and Wilson played regularly for Stevenage. That team should have been more than capable of beating Leyton Orient, but once again we have to suffer the embarrassment of being knocked out by a lower league team. Hopefully the first eleven will be able to hold there own in the division this season, but 2 or 3 long term injuries could give us a major headache!
i hear you Essex... and Id love three strong signings... but it isn't gonna happen, we have had all kinds of changes behind the scenes, and we don't even know what went on, or what is going on moving forward...
I have no embarrassment to getting beat by orient, we rested the main players and the real stuff starts on Saturday ...
And stamping our feet on the floor isn't gonna make them materialise either ... people want more, of course, but our expectations need to be dropped as soon as the rumours came out and then the changes at the top level ...
How the chuff does in "not matter" ? in what World do we play so called first class games but they do not matter ? Was if free to get in ?
Next year lets be honest i suggest that the club put this out prior to the first round game
" dear loyal fans, we are no longer going to lie about makiing much (if any) effort re the cup GAME (there will only be one). It will be a scratch team of newbies, old-sters. youngesters and people who have pissed the management off. Turn up if you feel like it, feel free to put as much feeling and effort into coming along as we will on the pitch"
Fanny, that people in the East were slagging off Waggy doesn't surprise me but nor does it prove anything.
Waggy scored. End of. Waggy was playing out of his normal position (up front), Green was in his favoured position. Green had numerous chances set up for him, many by Waggy but Green wasted them. Waggy played for the team, Green played for himself. Waggy was ironed out by a shocking tackle right in front of the east stand but heaven forbid that he should moan about a refs decision. He should follow the example of him manager and stay calm and collected. Oh, hang on a minute Powell got sent off (again) so lets hear some criticism of Chris. No, didn't think so.
Waggy didn't have a great game and he can certainly play better than he did but some will slag him regardless.
A response as expected, Henry.
I believe what you fail to understand is that this is NOT a contest between Waggy & Green . Far from it . It's merely an indication of the frustration that supporters ( not just me) feel about the former and his modus operandi . Of course, it's all about opinions but unfortunately you continue to see no flaws in Waggy's performances whilst rejoicing in criticising Green's.
Whilst I and others appreciate that Waggy was the victim of a nasty foul in front of the East Stand, I was referring in my previous post to the numerous times in EVERY game that he throws up his hands, appealing to the officials and generally whinges when he feels he should have been awarded a free kick, thereby wasting time & energy in what is inevitably a fruitless gesture.You would probably compare this aspect of his "play" to that of a former favourite, Johnny Robinson but to be honest, JR tempered this trait with his passion & 100% commitment to the team. Not saying that Waggy gives less , but IMHO the 2 players ' contributions on the whole cannot be compared.
You also refer to SCP's antics on the touchline.....hmmmm, clutching at straws, I fear . Chris has indicated he was out of order but does Waggy learn from his actions ?
Scott is a lovely young man as I'm sure is Danny. I support every player who wears the red shirt as do the majority of fans. But every player has his weak points including those 2 - something you seem extremely reluctant to recognise. Maybe, as a previous poster suggested, neither is really Championship material ? ( Puts on hard hat!)
Reserve team lose in a cup competition which we will never win and I don't even know the name of.
Cook looked good, neat and tidy player with some skill should be pushing for starts this season. Smith showed promise but not Champ standard yet, needs a loan. Wilson was not as bad as some say, he is just not Solly, steady and would do an ok job filling in with Wiggy & Morrison alongside him. Evina is a long way off being a good player, potential but not sure he will every get there. Green is not Championship quality, shoots all the time and never hits the target...Waggy better but would prefer someone else TBH - unlilkey given budget.
Biggest disspointment was that Hollands was left on for 120mins - unless he is not playing Saturday this seems a silly management decision. Same for Cort who looked like he puleed a Hamstring at the end which could be very costly.
How the chuff does in "not matter" ? in what World do we play so called first class games but they do not matter ? Was if free to get in ?
Next year lets be honest i suggest that the club put this out prior to the first round game
" dear loyal fans, we are no longer going to lie about makiing much (if any) effort re the cup GAME (there will only be one). It will be a scratch team of newbies, old-sters. youngesters and people who have pissed the management off. Turn up if you feel like it, feel free to put as much feeling and effort into coming along as we will on the pitch"
Thats about the size of it .... we see in all the divisions all over Europe now, people couldn't care less, that started when Utd went to Brazil as holders of the FA Cup ...
The reason is that there are significant finical ramifications to going up and down leagues... there can even be negative affects of good cup runs... ask Birmingham...
Fanny, that people in the East were slagging off Waggy doesn't surprise me but nor does it prove anything.
Waggy scored. End of. Waggy was playing out of his normal position (up front), Green was in his favoured position. Green had numerous chances set up for him, many by Waggy but Green wasted them. Waggy played for the team, Green played for himself. Waggy was ironed out by a shocking tackle right in front of the east stand but heaven forbid that he should moan about a refs decision. He should follow the example of him manager and stay calm and collected. Oh, hang on a minute Powell got sent off (again) so lets hear some criticism of Chris. No, didn't think so.
Waggy didn't have a great game and he can certainly play better than he did but some will slag him regardless.
Smith played very well, and looks a good, hungry player. Evina did very well too when bombing forward. Kerker looked OK, Good touches but he could use a bit more match fitness.
Overall, Just unhappy about the fact that none of our lads tried a "pirlo".
I went to the game expecting the first team would be playing. I suppose with the Birmingham game then Leicester games within a week put paid to that. I thought Cook looked very good, Smith started brightly but faded and looked a bit ponderous, Kelkar made a good run at the very start and was pretty anonymous from that point. I thought our atytack looked lightweight and Waggy got a lucky defelction for the goal.
Not a big deal at all really - BWP, Jacko and Pritchard looked sharp when they came on but probably needed another 20 mins to secure the win.
Some people seem to automatically see this as our reserves playing Orient's first team. But they had 8 players making their debuts (6 of whom started) in that match. It remains to be seen whether those players feature in a league game.
Fanny, where have I put you down? Please don't go down that road when I have said nothing of the sort.
As for never seeing any flaws that is just untrue. I said in my post that he did not have his best game.
As for comparing Waggy with Green I'm afraid that it is the Green lovers who constantly do that, not me. I have constantly pointed out all of last season on here that you don't need to slag off one to praise the other yet Green fans constantly made comparisons. Waggy's goal's don't count, Waggy's assist's don't count but Green is credited with "hitting the cross bar is as good a goal"
The comparison with Powell is valid. If Waggy moans it is bad, if Powell (or John Robinson) moans it is "passion" and is overlooked. No allowance is made for how often Waggy is kicked up in the air. He should just get up and get on with it then?
Halo and Horns. For some anything Green does is seen as good regardless, anything Waggy does is seen as bad regardless. If Waggy had blasted 6 or 7 shots over in one game he would have been slated. Green does that and has had a good game.
Essex Al, By scratch side I mean one that has never played together before. I don't think we have ever played that back four even in pre-season. We had three debuts, Smith was playing his second game, Wagstaff was out of position and Hollands isn't fit.
The team that faces Brum will have had a lot more time together on the pitch as it will most likely be the team that started v Fulham.
I was suprised that at some point Cook didn't swop with Waggy and have a go up top. Would have be interesting to see what he brought to the table in that position.
think the plus point re Cook is for a young player he has excellent vision. We saw it last night for Wagstaffs goal and a couple of time during the Sporting friendly.
Fair points, Henry. I know when it's time to call it a day .....but still have a feeling that when it comes to Waggy, you will defend him whatever the situation. But that's your choice.
Have to agree though about the side that SCP fielded last night and surprised that Danny Hollands wasn't subbed at 90mins .
You are in the best position to judge how our "first team" played against Fulham & hopefully you are optimistic for saturday and beyond based on what you saw.
No, I will defend him from what I think is unfair criticism. All I ask is that he is judged by the same standard as the other players, good and bad. The "he always moans" is a red herring. It is just how he is. His skill and 90 minutes of effort is ignored but one or two whinges to a lino are focused in on and seen as more worthy of comment than the fact that he scored!
The team that played 2nd half v Fulham will give Brum a good game.
Agree with Large that Pritchard is ahead of Green and Waggy. He showed it at Fulham and he showed it again last night.
Also thought it was telling that Pritchard took the 5th, possibly pressure pen. Says a lot about him and how the management regard him.
And Green took a very good pen too. First shot he had on target all night, mind (joke, all you Green lovers)
Comments
I know Henry is a huge fan of Waggy and will defend him to the hilt , but people around us in the East last night were tearing their hair out re his play. Same old gesturing to everyone when he felt he was fouled etc and apart from scoring the only goal ( agree he took it well) feeling was he did little.
Both Waggy & Green have their plus points and their minus points ( if there is such a thing!) and TBH neither would be shoe ins for me. Pity we have so few options....
Second point is regarding going out of the Cup at the first attempt( yes, it sometimes feels like we ARE trying to concentrate on the league !) Someone posted that we should be looking " to sweat out as much money as possible from a Cup run" but am I right in thinking that Airman ( and others) have continually pointed out that unless a team reaches the final stages of such , they're more likely to lose money than gain it from their participation eg stewarding /floodlighting costs etc. ?
Imo an injury to BWP or Yann will leave us struggling as will an injury to either fullback.
No one we have brought in is a serious contender to break into the starting eleven. Cook maybe in time but the other two don't look likely to displace Solly or Stephens etc.
Not sure that we can address it either. No significant money to bring anyone in.
Hopefully somehow we'll find some cheap loan deals.
BTW Thought you'd still be asleep after your late return home last night !
The fact that we only drew over 90 mins at home to a L1 team does not necessarily mean the squad is poor - it's just reflective of a bunch of blokes who don't play enough as individuals and with each other as a team - it's bound to be disjointed and there are probably a few players who fall foul of trying too hard in an effort to impress.
SCP displays many similar managerial traits to Curbs including not prioritising the League Cup - if the overall league outcome is satisfactory then I will not be complaining. Without the money needed for 3 or 4 quality players then the goal has to be survival this year so I think Powell's right not to gamble too many first teamers on an unimportant fixture.
Agreed you don't support Charlton if you want to be a glory boy basking in the limelight of watching your team win loads of trophies. But don't you want any chance of success? If you do, then realistically the best chance of that is going to be a cup run in either of the cups, and of these, the League Cup offers the greatest possibility as many of the Premiership sides put out under strength teams.
I am sick and tired of seeing Charlton not taking this competition seriously and continually putting out our reserve players. I am fed up seeing teams from leagues below us out play us year after year because we have a reserve side out.
All I can say is when the Nigels won at Moan Utd last year, I wonder if their fans thought it was irrelevant?
we have some issues and don't have great tremendous strength in depth, but across a lot of areas we are 'ok' ...
I'm surprised people are expecting more, we've had investment problems, almost melt down if you listen to the insiders, top level changes...
we have kept our core players and they are fresh and raring to go, Powell will have them right where they need to be on Saturday, big away support and maybe a cocky Birmingham, you never know...
Either way lets support the boys even if we get tonked, I'm starting to get why the Aussies call us winging poms
Waggy scored. End of. Waggy was playing out of his normal position (up front), Green was in his favoured position. Green had numerous chances set up for him, many by Waggy but Green wasted them. Waggy played for the team, Green played for himself. Waggy was ironed out by a shocking tackle right in front of the east stand but heaven forbid that he should moan about a refs decision. He should follow the example of him manager and stay calm and collected. Oh, hang on a minute Powell got sent off (again) so lets hear some criticism of Chris. No, didn't think so.
Waggy didn't have a great game and he can certainly play better than he did but some will slag him regardless.
I have no embarrassment to getting beat by orient, we rested the main players and the real stuff starts on Saturday ...
And stamping our feet on the floor isn't gonna make them materialise either ... people want more, of course, but our expectations need to be dropped as soon as the rumours came out and then the changes at the top level ...
Was if free to get in ?
Next year lets be honest i suggest that the club put this out prior to the first round game
" dear loyal fans, we are no longer going to lie about makiing much (if any) effort re the cup GAME (there will only be one). It will be a scratch team of newbies, old-sters. youngesters and people who have pissed the management off. Turn up if you feel like it, feel free to put as much feeling and effort into coming along as we will on the pitch"
I believe what you fail to understand is that this is NOT a contest between Waggy & Green . Far from it . It's merely an indication of the frustration that supporters ( not just me) feel about the former and his modus operandi . Of course, it's all about opinions but unfortunately you continue to see no flaws in Waggy's performances whilst rejoicing in criticising Green's.
Whilst I and others appreciate that Waggy was the victim of a nasty foul in front of the East Stand, I was referring in my previous post to the numerous times in EVERY game that he throws up his hands, appealing to the officials and generally whinges when he feels he should have been awarded a free kick, thereby wasting time & energy in what is inevitably a fruitless gesture.You would probably compare this aspect of his "play" to that of a former favourite, Johnny Robinson but to be honest, JR tempered this trait with his passion & 100% commitment to the team. Not saying that Waggy gives less , but IMHO the 2 players ' contributions on the whole cannot be compared.
You also refer to SCP's antics on the touchline.....hmmmm, clutching at straws, I fear . Chris has indicated he was out of order but does Waggy learn from his actions ?
Scott is a lovely young man as I'm sure is Danny. I support every player who wears the red shirt as do the majority of fans. But every player has his weak points including those 2 - something you seem extremely reluctant to recognise. Maybe, as a previous poster suggested, neither is really Championship material ? ( Puts on hard hat!)
Awaiting your inevitable "put down" .....
Cook looked good, neat and tidy player with some skill should be pushing for starts this season. Smith showed promise but not Champ standard yet, needs a loan. Wilson was not as bad as some say, he is just not Solly, steady and would do an ok job filling in with Wiggy & Morrison alongside him. Evina is a long way off being a good player, potential but not sure he will every get there. Green is not Championship quality, shoots all the time and never hits the target...Waggy better but would prefer someone else TBH - unlilkey given budget.
Biggest disspointment was that Hollands was left on for 120mins - unless he is not playing Saturday this seems a silly management decision. Same for Cort who looked like he puleed a Hamstring at the end which could be very costly.
Botherered 20%
Behind Powell and his decision making 100%
Powell is still tinkering with the squad to see who is fit and who is hungry. Let the 'real' games begin. Come on you Reds!
The reason is that there are significant finical ramifications to going up and down leagues... there can even be negative affects of good cup runs... ask Birmingham...
Smith played very well, and looks a good, hungry player.
Evina did very well too when bombing forward.
Kerker looked OK, Good touches but he could use a bit more match fitness.
Overall, Just unhappy about the fact that none of our lads tried a "pirlo".
Not a big deal at all really - BWP, Jacko and Pritchard looked sharp when they came on but probably needed another 20 mins to secure the win.
As for never seeing any flaws that is just untrue. I said in my post that he did not have his best game.
As for comparing Waggy with Green I'm afraid that it is the Green lovers who constantly do that, not me. I have constantly pointed out all of last season on here that you don't need to slag off one to praise the other yet Green fans constantly made comparisons. Waggy's goal's don't count, Waggy's assist's don't count but Green is credited with "hitting the cross bar is as good a goal"
The comparison with Powell is valid. If Waggy moans it is bad, if Powell (or John Robinson) moans it is "passion" and is overlooked. No allowance is made for how often Waggy is kicked up in the air. He should just get up and get on with it then?
Halo and Horns. For some anything Green does is seen as good regardless, anything Waggy does is seen as bad regardless. If Waggy had blasted 6 or 7 shots over in one game he would have been slated. Green does that and has had a good game.
Essex Al, By scratch side I mean one that has never played together before. I don't think we have ever played that back four even in pre-season. We had three debuts, Smith was playing his second game, Wagstaff was out of position and Hollands isn't fit.
The team that faces Brum will have had a lot more time together on the pitch as it will most likely be the team that started v Fulham.
Have to agree though about the side that SCP fielded last night and surprised that Danny Hollands wasn't subbed at 90mins .
You are in the best position to judge how our "first team" played against Fulham & hopefully you are optimistic for saturday and beyond based on what you saw.
The team that played 2nd half v Fulham will give Brum a good game.
Agree with Large that Pritchard is ahead of Green and Waggy. He showed it at Fulham and he showed it again last night.
Also thought it was telling that Pritchard took the 5th, possibly pressure pen. Says a lot about him and how the management regard him.
And Green took a very good pen too. First shot he had on target all night, mind (joke, all you Green lovers)
Shall I be seeing you there so that we can kiss & make up ? ( I'll be wearing the make up..)