Don't think it can be spelled out any simpler and no-one really knows (or can tell) more than has been posted already. It's pretty clear now in my opinion, in contrast to a few days ago where I was one of those in the dark.
Beds, I've been out all day and come back to what seems like thousands of posts, I've managed to catch up by skimming through failing that there are plenty of good summaries in this thread, or do you need someone to come along and read it to you as well?
I have read every single thread and comment I'm still confused. (Thanks for the sarky " read it to you " comment , very mature ) Summaries are no good . They are guess work. I don't want to read guess work . I want facts . It's been over a week now we have reading this speculation . A handfull of listers seem happy in telling us we are up shit creek but don't have the balls to say why in exact details . I can understand why Rick can't say anything as he is an employee but there is no excuse for the others . If we are to be united we need to know the facts. End of.
Beds, I've been out all day and come back to what seems like thousands of posts, I've managed to catch up by skimming through failing that there are plenty of good summaries in this thread, or do you need someone to come along and read it to you as well?
I have read every single thread and comment I'm still confused. (Thanks for the sarky comment ) Summaries are no good . They are guess work. I don't want to read guess work . I want facts . It's been over a week now we have reading this speculation . A handfull of listers seem happy in telling us we are up shit creek but don't have the balls to say why in exact details . I can understand why Rick can't say anything as he is an employee but there is no excuse for the others . If we are to be united we need to know the facts. End of.
You can't expect people who aren't members of the board or such like to know every last detail, what they're saying is as close to the truth as we're going to get, and we should be thankful that they are divulging such information
If they don't know the details then maybe they shouldnt speculate because speculation causes confusion and anger ( and there are hundreds of us on here who angry but don't really know why ) ? Just a thought.
I think AB's comment suggests it's a little more than speculation, I'd rather know what people know than be left in the dark until suddenly we're in administration without any warning etc
i can see what beds and others mean. its all very well being told we are screwed unless something happens unforeseen, but facts would be nice. I get alot of it. if not all that has been posted on here. it makes sense. i just wish there was a full on fact to back it up. Speculation into why there is a problem which there most certainly is, is not enough. i want to know the full ins and outs of it all. I know thats not possible. Its like reading a book and wanting to skip to the end to find out what’s happened and why. This is not a book. This is our beloved club. A friend in which we want only good things to happen too. We don’t like hearing that its unwell and not knowing how to fix it, if we can. If we don’t know the details then no positive action into how to help it will be accomplished. I know why we cant have details because its private business and could make things worse if publicly known. Its just frustrating when you cant do anything but type on a keyboard.
From what I know some bills haven't been paid for 3 months the cash invested by the mystery investor had not gone into the club but had gone to pay someones personal debts .Causing the invester to back out breach of trust .Now I'm only telling you what I've been told .If this is the case we are in big trouble
who's debts? behind the investors back? ahh, i see. must of missed that on the read through. so my statement of him being a wide boy makes even more sense. cant the investor just by pass him and focus on the club?
I don't know if said person owns 30 something per cent then I'd guess the funder/ investor would have to buy him out in turn having to show himself which if it is Cash don't think he would want that.Easier for him to walk away or the other guy might not want sell in which you got a stale mate .Idk gets very complicated
But I do know and I guess most of us have had this sickening feel in bottom of our stomach ever since these stories/ rumours , facts whatever you want call them broke on here
When you are "in the know(ITK)" the hints and innuendo all seem blindingly obvious. when you are not ITK its just hints and innuendo. Until Airmans comment earlier today plus a few more heavier hints from the famous 5 I think that most of us not ITK were either thinking or hoping this was just a boardroom spat and all would be rosy in the garden in the end. If any of the conjecture below is true we could be in for rocky season
TJ has 28% of CAFC holdings which in turn owns 90% of CAFC with Baton (i.e. RM) owning 10%. If KC controls the 50% of CAFC holdings held by the Mysterons as well as Slaters 22% then effectively the ownership of our club is 65% controlled by KC, 10% RM and 25% TJ
TJs shares effectively give him a blocking stake, as you would need >75% votes for instance to sell the club.
If the club has a budget deficit it will be looking at its owners to fund this. Problems could occur if
1) KC is pissed off as he feels like hes been led up the garden path either because he was told there would be no deficit in the Champ or it would be lower than it now actually is. He can refuse to fund his share.
2) TJ is skint and can't fund his 25% share, KC could be refusing to fund his portion until TJ puts his up and the funds that came in this week could just be RMs 10%
3) We have deadlock at board level if, for instance, TJ wants to bridge the budget gap by selling players as he personally can do nothing else, whereas RM, KC et al don't want to do this as this undervalues the playing assets. After a year in the champ and a mid-table finish they will all be worth more than they are now.
4) KC, TJ or RM have looked at the global/local economic situation and have concluded they are not going to get the return they thought 18 months ago
Admin is a possibility if the club can't meet its outgoings. i.e. the funding gap isn't bridged
This could be an attractive option for KC in any of the above circumstances as this could effectively remove TJ from the equation. If he wants to stay involved as he could buy the club out of admin as (probably) he is the main creditor. Admin on this basis would also remove any capital repayment obligations to RM and the old regime that would hang over the club in the PL and interest payment obligations in the championship
If he doesn't want to stay involved, admin would offer him the possibility of getting some of his cash back from someone else buying the club and would get round any attempt by TJ blocking a sale using his 25%
The consequences of Admin from a sporting sense are a 10 point penalty, he could want to gamble on us staying in the champ with the penalty in return for a much cleaner ownership structure.
Obviously he wouldn't have to do this in his own name, he can use his usual smoke and mirrors of shell companies registered in tax havens to mask his movements.
If any of the above is close to the mark then you can see why PV walked as he brought KC an his sunshine band to the club and I'm sure he would not want to be associated with actions like these.
I must stress that all of the above is pure guesswork as I'm not ITK but it is plausible.
Admin is a possibility if the club can't meet its outgoings. i.e. the funding gap isn't bridged
This could be an attractive option for KC in any of the above circumstances as this could effectively remove TJ from the equation. If he wants to stay involved as he could buy the club out of admin as (probably) he is the main creditor. Admin on this basis would also remove any capital repayment obligations to RM and the old regime that would hang over the club in the PL and interest payment obligations in the championship
Good point, Imnot, it would be a gamble given the 10 point deduction but there is some sense in this.
It is a good point that the playing assets are probably going to go up in value overall, by quite a sizeable chunk in the coming months. Selling now would achieve a fraction of their worth. If X originally sold the original proposal to a mystery backer who now feels he has been stitched up or cheated, the most likely scenario is that he will want to walk away -the fact he was a mystery backer in the first place suggests no great interest in running a football club. It may not have been Xs intention to stich up but wheeler dealers will act like this in tough times tp keep their head above water.
However, the obvious best way to get a return is keep Chrissy and his squad together and see how they go. A cold business man could be shown this quite easily I would have thought. Despite some saying we need to bring in 5 or 6, others including myself think the squad as it stands would be very competetive - even if they don't get promoted, certain players will shine at Championship level without a doubt, massively increasing their value. So if you know you have something that could double or triple in value within a reasonably short period, it would be quite tempting to continue.
However, if somebody on the board (X) has miffed you off and you no longer trust them then despite the above you would probably want to get shot unless somebody you trust is at the helm and X goes. Y and Z at the club are also miffed off with X also has he has jeopordised or scupperd a plan that was going pretty perfectly. If X has control or a lot of power, and sees the only way for him given the circumstances is to get some money out of this by selling players, albeit before the real value has been realised. With a croc of gold so close, you would imagine Y and Z would be against the idea and believe that if you got rid of X the situation could be rectified.
But if X is a wheeler dealer in finanacial difficulties and he sees a way to mitigate them, surely he is going to take that option, rather than walk away out of kindness and love for the club. The problem is that the reason the mystery backer has pulled the plug, would also be the same reason no other backer would be interested -as at this moment, we would otherwise be quite an attractive proposition with X at the helm. The best hope, if all this is correct would be a backer coming in who would buy X out. There are rich people looking to buy football clubs and if they get wind there is an opportunity with us, there could still be a positive development.
My summary for those requesting one. No inside knowledge, but that is how I have read the numerous posts on here. May be totally wide of the mark.
I had heard from a source at wycombe that the likes of hayes were on big dough 6-8k per week (of which they paid nigh on f*** all towards when he was on loan there)
Maybe we were paying far too much in the salary camp , hence everyone flocked here (shock horror) and now we may not be able to afford to unload the higher earners who still have decent sized contracts and not forgetting the bonuses etc built in with wage increases Just a complete guess to add into the shit mixer
However, the obvious best way to get a return is keep Chrissy and his squad together and see how they go. A cold business man could be shown this quite easily I would have thought.
If we can't afford to pay local suppliers, how do you expect us to pay high earning football players?
I don't think you understood what I was saying - I was pointing out the common sense option - money in now would get a return. Not stating the position as it stands.
Personally I don't see the tactic of administration necessarily as attractive to anyone except as a consequence perhaps to an as yet unidentified third party out to make a quick buck from the chaos apparently unfolding within the club.Look at it this way:even if KC were thinking that as main creditor /backer he could force a pre pack administration sale of the club to himself at a knock down rate then that still leaves for him to deal with the difficult funding/deficit issues that NewYork Addick so accurately spelt out.Admittedly also that would be the case for any other third party but not for them with the RM /TJ legacy issues ,whatever they are or might be.Also, KC might not feel too confident about getting into what would effectively be a Dutch Auction with at present unknown investors (actual or theoretical) over the true value of a recently promoted London based club one step away from the big time who could be acquired out of administration for a song .If I were interested in acquiring such a club in those circumstances I would just sit on the sidelines and watch the squabble unfold and then pounce when the chance arises .Whoever i might be as a third party I would however have to be pretty damn sure ,as KC would have to be himself, that I can get the club for a song ,that I can hold onto and attract the best players as possible to mount a serious challenge for another promotion or sell on again for a quick buck if promotion is not immediately achieved .At the same time i would have to feel that I can cope with competing in a tough league without worrying about relegation what with the handicap of a ten point penalty to start with and a ban on buying players in a dwindling transfer window period while the pre pack administration is concluded.All the time that I have the funds to throw at this project and that I am prepared to do so .After a dreadful initial experience in the financial sense at least in investing in football I don't think that it can be taken as a given that KC at least would be thinking in those terms himself.He would more likely want to hardball others out of the road with the thinly veiled threat of administration rather than its actuality.
But KC or whoever may not want to get involved in that. May just want a good return on his investment - probably bought into TJ and MS rather than Charlton.
Admin is a possibility if the club can't meet its outgoings. i.e. the funding gap isn't bridged
This could be an attractive option for KC in any of the above circumstances as this could effectively remove TJ from the equation. If he wants to stay involved as he could buy the club out of admin as (probably) he is the main creditor. Admin on this basis would also remove any capital repayment obligations to RM and the old regime that would hang over the club in the PL and interest payment obligations in the championship
Good point, Imnot, it would be a gamble given the 10 point deduction but there is some sense in this.
Personally I don't see the tactic of administration necessarily as attractive to anyone except as a consequence perhaps to an as yet unidentified third party out to make a quick buck from the chaos apparently unfolding within the club.Look at it this way:even if KC were thinking that as main creditor /backer he could force a pre pack administration sale of the club to himself at a knock down rate then that still leaves for him to deal with the difficult funding/deficit issues that NewYork Addick so accurately spelt out.Admittedly also that would be the case for any other third party but not for them with the RM /TJ legacy issues ,whatever they are or might be.Also, KC might not feel too confident about getting into what would effectively be a Dutch Auction with at present unknown investors (actual or theoretical) over the true value of a recently promoted London based club one step away from the big time who could be acquired out of administration for a song .If I were interested in acquiring such a club in those circumstances I would just sit on the sidelines and watch the squabble unfold and then pounce when the chance arises .Whoever i might be as a third party I would however have to be pretty damn sure ,as KC would have to be himself, that I can get the club for a song ,that I can hold onto and attract the best players as possible to mount a serious challenge for another promotion or sell on again for a quick buck if promotion is not immediately achieved .At the same time i would have to feel that I can cope with competing in a tough league without worrying about relegation what with the handicap of a ten point penalty to start with and a ban on buying players in a dwindling transfer window period while the pre pack administration is concluded.All the time that I have the funds to throw at this project and that I am prepared to do so .After a dreadful initial experience in the financial sense at least in investing in football I don't think that it can be taken as a given that KC at least would be thinking in those terms himself.He would more likely want to hardball others out of the road with the thinly veiled threat of administration rather than its actuality.
I don't think admin won't be in anybody's interests in the short term. The question is, how much is needed to see us through the season or to January. If that can be covered by say the sale of Solly -maybe that is the most likely option.
Do you understand why there was a 4m op. deficit last season? Was it that we ran such an expensive squad? Its certainly true that whenever I got a programme we seemed to have ten more bodies in our squad than the oppo.
Right..so we got promoted. There is at least some TV money..is it 3m? and some extra matchday revenue, at the very least from bigger away support. So we would break even if we didnt add to the squad. So any deficit is based on a presumed addition to squad costs. Nobody forces us to do that. (except perhaps us the fans).
I guess my question is..in the Champ, aside from our current squad costs, do we have costs that other clubs such as Watford, Palace, Millwall don't have? And they don't have more revenue than us...you get my question? (but I appreciate you may not have the answer)
I think the TV deal is worth about £3m pa depending how often we are shown - in addition if you assume higher average crowds next season of 3k per game this should generate a further £1m or so in ticket revenue plus small incremental related revenue eg catering.
However this has already been partially offset by promotion bonuses whilst presumably some contracts had a wage uplift built into them from the Championship.
We won't see the accounts for the fiscal year just finished for several months but I am concerned there was indeed a large wages increase from 2010/11 given we seemed to snatch several players from under the noses of Championship clubs (Stephens, Wiggins etc.), whilst non-playing recruits like Hart, Bloom etc. would not have come cheap. The loan signings would have been well-paid too given they generally came from a higher level (N'Guessen, Cook, Cort etc.)
Given the operating loss in 2010/11 was £6m+ then it is hard to see how we can break even with a competitive side given the above.
It does seem strange given our solid fanbase and modern facilities however - perhaps the need to pay 'London-weighted' wages doesn't help.
It was at the time, and are we in a worse position than we were. We were going bust but now we have a better manager and better players and are in a higher division. It may be easier to extracate ourselves from the mess, especially if we hit the ground running playing wise.
For Beds and others calling for a summary of what has been said by Airman Brown and others on here.
There is a problem. A serious problem. It is not guess work or speculation. It is real.
Promised funding isn't going to arrive. Kevin Cash has pulled the plug. As we run at a loss we need that money to operate as a business.
Some money came in last week to cover some urgent bills and this lead many to believe that the problem had been resolved. But that was not enough money to clear all the debts, some of which date back to March, and no more is expected from Kevin Cash.
Cash no longer wishes to fund our deficit year on year and has said no more.
Jiminez hopes to find other buyers for Cash's share of the business ASAP. We don't know if that is either likely or possible but the presence of TJ himself and that he may wish to return a high percentage of the shares may be a stumbling block in negotiations.
Unless other sources of funding, which can only be new backers or selling and not replacing players, are found we will struggle to complete the season.
Not compete this season, complete the season
So it is no longer just no new players but sell, and not replace, some of the current squad to cover running costs. But that will not please Powell who is unlikely to agree a sale without a replacement. No one on here knows his mind but CP is an attractive commodity and he would have no trouble finding another Club if he left. CP is also unhappy with interference from TJ in team matters.
And if neither player sale or new sources of investment can raise enough money then its Admin because either one of our unpaid suppliers or one of the owners will apply for a winding up order. That will force the Club to ask for Administration to protect itself.
The rumours of Jiminez taking money out of the Club to pay other debts are not based on anything said by Rick/Airman or anyone on here and should be treated with great caution. However TJs general conduct in regard to managing CP has been questioned.
Hopes that the Club would break even in the Championship were based on 1. Higher TV income. That was reduced by £1m this season. 2. Wage bills as they stood at the time but we now have a substantially bigger/more expensive squad and many more back room staff. These staff and players were recruited on the assumption that the deficit over the season would be covered by Kevin Cash.
So the problem has been caused, IMHO, by Cash pulling out. It is not sure why he has done this. Most likely would seem to be that Cash was mislead over just how much he would be expected to pay and has decided he no longer wishes to do so.
Peter Varney being asked to leave was a symptom of these problems.
That's what read from what Rick/Airman is saying (and he can tell me if I've got it wrong) and what the Famous five have been getting at for a couple of weeks.
Comments
Summaries are no good . They are guess work. I don't want to read guess work .
I want facts .
It's been over a week now we have reading this speculation .
A handfull of listers seem happy in telling us we are up shit creek but don't have the balls to say why in exact details .
I can understand why Rick can't say anything as he is an employee but there is no excuse for the others .
If we are to be united we need to know the facts. End of.
I get alot of it. if not all that has been posted on here. it makes sense. i just wish there was a full on fact to back it up. Speculation into why there is a problem which there most certainly is, is not enough. i want to know the full ins and outs of it all. I know thats not possible. Its like reading a book and wanting to skip to the end to find out what’s happened and why.
This is not a book. This is our beloved club. A friend in which we want only good things to happen too. We don’t like hearing that its unwell and not knowing how to fix it, if we can. If we don’t know the details then no positive action into how to help it will be accomplished.
I know why we cant have details because its private business and could make things worse if publicly known. Its just frustrating when you cant do anything but type on a keyboard.
Our shareholdings are detailed here: http://www.cafc.co.uk/page/directors/0,,10267,00.html
TJ has 28% of CAFC holdings which in turn owns 90% of CAFC with Baton (i.e. RM) owning 10%. If KC controls the 50% of CAFC holdings held by the Mysterons as well as Slaters 22% then effectively the ownership of our club is 65% controlled by KC, 10% RM and 25% TJ
TJs shares effectively give him a blocking stake, as you would need >75% votes for instance to sell the club.
If the club has a budget deficit it will be looking at its owners to fund this. Problems could occur if
1) KC is pissed off as he feels like hes been led up the garden path either because he was told there would be no deficit in the Champ or it would be lower than it now actually is. He can refuse to fund his share.
2) TJ is skint and can't fund his 25% share, KC could be refusing to fund his portion until TJ puts his up and the funds that came in this week could just be RMs 10%
3) We have deadlock at board level if, for instance, TJ wants to bridge the budget gap by selling players as he personally can do nothing else, whereas RM, KC et al don't want to do this as this undervalues the playing assets. After a year in the champ and a mid-table finish they will all be worth more than they are now.
4) KC, TJ or RM have looked at the global/local economic situation and have concluded they are not going to get the return they thought 18 months ago
Admin is a possibility if the club can't meet its outgoings. i.e. the funding gap isn't bridged
This could be an attractive option for KC in any of the above circumstances as this could effectively remove TJ from the equation. If he wants to stay involved as he could buy the club out of admin as (probably) he is the main creditor. Admin on this basis would also remove any capital repayment obligations to RM and the old regime that would hang over the club in the PL and interest payment obligations in the championship
If he doesn't want to stay involved, admin would offer him the possibility of getting some of his cash back from someone else buying the club and would get round any attempt by TJ blocking a sale using his 25%
The consequences of Admin from a sporting sense are a 10 point penalty, he could want to gamble on us staying in the champ with the penalty in return for a much cleaner ownership structure.
Obviously he wouldn't have to do this in his own name, he can use his usual smoke and mirrors of shell companies registered in tax havens to mask his movements.
If any of the above is close to the mark then you can see why PV walked as he brought KC an his sunshine band to the club and I'm sure he would not want to be associated with actions like these.
I must stress that all of the above is pure guesswork as I'm not ITK but it is plausible.
This could be an attractive option for KC in any of the above circumstances as this could effectively remove TJ from the equation. If he wants to stay involved as he could buy the club out of admin as (probably) he is the main creditor. Admin on this basis would also remove any capital repayment obligations to RM and the old regime that would hang over the club in the PL and interest payment obligations in the championship
Good point, Imnot, it would be a gamble given the 10 point deduction but there is some sense in this.
However, the obvious best way to get a return is keep Chrissy and his squad together and see how they go. A cold business man could be shown this quite easily I would have thought. Despite some saying we need to bring in 5 or 6, others including myself think the squad as it stands would be very competetive - even if they don't get promoted, certain players will shine at Championship level without a doubt, massively increasing their value. So if you know you have something that could double or triple in value within a reasonably short period, it would be quite tempting to continue.
However, if somebody on the board (X) has miffed you off and you no longer trust them then despite the above you would probably want to get shot unless somebody you trust is at the helm and X goes. Y and Z at the club are also miffed off with X also has he has jeopordised or scupperd a plan that was going pretty perfectly. If X has control or a lot of power, and sees the only way for him given the circumstances is to get some money out of this by selling players, albeit before the real value has been realised. With a croc of gold so close, you would imagine Y and Z would be against the idea and believe that if you got rid of X the situation could be rectified.
But if X is a wheeler dealer in finanacial difficulties and he sees a way to mitigate them, surely he is going to take that option, rather than walk away out of kindness and love for the club. The problem is that the reason the mystery backer has pulled the plug, would also be the same reason no other backer would be interested -as at this moment, we would otherwise be quite an attractive proposition with X at the helm. The best hope, if all this is correct would be a backer coming in who would buy X out. There are rich people looking to buy football clubs and if they get wind there is an opportunity with us, there could still be a positive development.
My summary for those requesting one. No inside knowledge, but that is how I have read the numerous posts on here. May be totally wide of the mark.
Maybe we were paying far too much in the salary camp , hence everyone flocked here (shock horror) and now we may not be able to afford to unload the higher earners who still have decent sized contracts and not forgetting the bonuses etc built in with wage increases
Just a complete guess to add into the shit mixer
If we can't afford to pay local suppliers, how do you expect us to pay high earning football players?
However this has already been partially offset by promotion bonuses whilst presumably some contracts had a wage uplift built into them from the Championship.
We won't see the accounts for the fiscal year just finished for several months but I am concerned there was indeed a large wages increase from 2010/11 given we seemed to snatch several players from under the noses of Championship clubs (Stephens, Wiggins etc.), whilst non-playing recruits like Hart, Bloom etc. would not have come cheap. The loan signings would have been well-paid too given they generally came from a higher level (N'Guessen, Cook, Cort etc.)
Given the operating loss in 2010/11 was £6m+ then it is hard to see how we can break even with a competitive side given the above.
It does seem strange given our solid fanbase and modern facilities however - perhaps the need to pay 'London-weighted' wages doesn't help.
There is a problem. A serious problem. It is not guess work or speculation. It is real.
Promised funding isn't going to arrive. Kevin Cash has pulled the plug. As we run at a loss we need that money to operate as a business.
Some money came in last week to cover some urgent bills and this lead many to believe that the problem had been resolved. But that was not enough money to clear all the debts, some of which date back to March, and no more is expected from Kevin Cash.
Cash no longer wishes to fund our deficit year on year and has said no more.
Jiminez hopes to find other buyers for Cash's share of the business ASAP. We don't know if that is either likely or possible but the presence of TJ himself and that he may wish to return a high percentage of the shares may be a stumbling block in negotiations.
Unless other sources of funding, which can only be new backers or selling and not replacing players, are found we will struggle to complete the season.
Not compete this season, complete the season
So it is no longer just no new players but sell, and not replace, some of the current squad to cover running costs. But that will not please Powell who is unlikely to agree a sale without a replacement. No one on here knows his mind but CP is an attractive commodity and he would have no trouble finding another Club if he left. CP is also unhappy with interference from TJ in team matters.
And if neither player sale or new sources of investment can raise enough money then its Admin because either one of our unpaid suppliers or one of the owners will apply for a winding up order. That will force the Club to ask for Administration to protect itself.
The rumours of Jiminez taking money out of the Club to pay other debts are not based on anything said by Rick/Airman or anyone on here and should be treated with great caution. However TJs general conduct in regard to managing CP has been questioned.
Hopes that the Club would break even in the Championship were based on 1. Higher TV income. That was reduced by £1m this season. 2. Wage bills as they stood at the time but we now have a substantially bigger/more expensive squad and many more back room staff. These staff and players were recruited on the assumption that the deficit over the season would be covered by Kevin Cash.
So the problem has been caused, IMHO, by Cash pulling out. It is not sure why he has done this. Most likely would seem to be that Cash was mislead over just how much he would be expected to pay and has decided he no longer wishes to do so.
Peter Varney being asked to leave was a symptom of these problems.
That's what read from what Rick/Airman is saying (and he can tell me if I've got it wrong) and what the Famous five have been getting at for a couple of weeks.