"I'm sorry but i'm fed up of people being so negative! We are top for god sake. We've kept more clean sheets than i remember in a long time. Sorry every single player in the squad is amazing. Better?"
Yes. Better. Even better not to start a thread entitled "time for a Change inbetween the sticks" when your club is 10 points clear at the top of the table and your keeper has let in ONE goal in the last FIVE games. Otherwise you might just get people choking on their lunch and pointing out how bloody ridiculous the entire premise is.
Precisely and it is why Premier League Managers tend to opt for proven, experienced, keepers.
Given, Robinson, Jasskeleinen, Schwarzer, Sorensen, Howard, Kenny and Friedel are all well into their 30's and in the case of Friedel, 40. Cech, Foster, Reina, Gordon and Vorm are all close to 30.
Look at Man Utd - Van de Saar retires and Fergie can't buy a first choice keeper. Arsenal have been looking to bring one through for 5 seasons.
Given - Not given a chance at Blackburn, moved to Newcastle at the age of 21 and has become an established no.1 gk in the prem.
Robinson - Played at Leeds when he was younger, still young when he was spurs number 1 was known for the odd error or 2.
Jaaskelinen - Was Hamer's age when he broke through properly in the Bolton team.
Schwarzer - Midds no1 for years from the age of 25, was criticised a lot in his younger years for errors.
if you get my drift, they havent been oldies their whole career and most of them took time to become the keepers they have today!
Hamer- he just gets a bit to excited. throws himself at crosses, very rarely looks like he's going to get a telling touch on the ball. last night he let a shot past him which on any other occasion he would save. shot stoping is one of his main qualities.
why havent we let that many goals in?
1. our defence is extremlly solid and is covered well by the midfield and the tactics created by Powell. 2. Other teams in this division arent that good. usually get a chance and fluff it. (exter should of scored but instead the guy hoofs it over the bar.) The shots either get stoped by our keeper or they might go in. or they probably more than likley just miss it. 3. Carrying on with other teams; in league 1 its extremlly difficult to get a good striker. None of our strikers have been scoring. we have been fortunated in the last 4 games to be getting goals that are from little moments of magic or in greens case a bit of a fluke (with help from yann and yet another keeper who makes mistakes) 4. They are playing top of the league opponents, so most teams are defensive against us. frightened of our attacking qualities and those moments of magic. 5. For some odd reason other teams dont bombared Hamer with crosses but we all know why that is.... the brilliance of Solly and wiggins. And if they do get through, the no noncence approach of defending by our centre backs cleares it most times.
Hamer- he's a good keeper. Good shot stoper, good distribution, seems like a real charactor. He has however been lucky to play in a team and in a league that stops him from being exposed.
Does there really need to be as much vitriol on this board when someone makes a comment you don't agree with? While I don't think Hamer should be dropped I'm sure some of you that are saying it is the team that gets results are those who said it was right to drop Hayes for big Yann. Back then I think most of us could see that Hayes was doing okay but it just wasn't quite working for him, but the team still got results.
Now apply that to Hamer. Is it really that silly a question to ask that there should be a change? I don't think so. Personally I have my doubts about Sullivan but without a real run of games we won't know for sure if he is any better than Hamer or not.
A team can do well, but it doesn't mean everyone is on top form and irreplaceable. He kept a clean sheet against Sheff Utd, but had probably his worst game of the season.
Hamer might be better than Sullivan, but that doesn't mean contructive criticism can't be made, and it's not unreasonable to think ahead to next season when any keeper of ours will be a LOT busier. Indeed, it is difficult to judge him fairly at the moment as he has few games when he has much to do, I'm struggling to think of a match when he was the MoM, the guy who won a game single handed, as the rest of the team has done it for him.
I wonder where critics think we are going to get this special keeper who never makes mistakes. I remember Deano was nailed to his line and his kicking was atrocious but I never heard anyone calling for him to go (and rightly so.) Last night their keeper dropped several clangers but got away with them but because he also made some good saves, we, on this thread, congratulated him. Hamer is young and learning his trade. If CP is happy with him then I'm content too.
The ball seemed to fly through his hands. He thanked Stephens on Twitter for 'getting him out of a hole' so seems to accept he should have done better. However, I think taylor was equally to blame as he got the wrong side of the scorer. I like Hamer. He will get better by playing and his 'weaknesses' will be worked on and improved.
SJH I saw that on twitter too, good of him to hold his hands up (pardon the pun!!)
Obviously none of the Hamer detractors were at Orient. No surprise there. Don't you lot realise that keepers at 24 are still learning their trade? From where dud we pick up this new breed of "supporters" that mindlessly slag off young players, and then whine that "criticism" is a good thing? criticism is only a good thing when it is constructive and given with a modicum of knowledge of the subject
Precisely and it is why Premier League Managers tend to opt for proven, experienced, keepers.
Given, Robinson, Jasskeleinen, Schwarzer, Sorensen, Howard, Kenny and Friedel are all well into their 30's and in the case of Friedel, 40. Cech, Foster, Reina, Gordon and Vorm are all close to 30.
Look at Man Utd - Van de Saar retires and Fergie can't buy a first choice keeper. Arsenal have been looking to bring one through for 5 seasons.
In case you haven't noticed, the salary budget of a Third Division club is just ever so slightly smaller than that of a Premier league club.
Indeed - and in case you hadn't noticed the vast majority of those keepers learnt their trade abroard or in the lower Leagues where they were "allowed" to make mistakes.
I'm sorry but i'm fed up of people being so negative! We are top for god sake. We've kept more clean sheets than i remember in a long time.
Sorry every single player in the squad is amazing. Better?
No but you start a thread saying we need a change in goal when we havent lost since new years eve and let in 1 goal.
You haven't properly backed up your statement, only by saying Sullivan should be in goal but being very honest, Sullivan hasnt looked better than Hamer.
Sorry pal but your just another negative norris!
far from being a negative norris, i put 50 quid on us to win the league before the season started.
I have backed my point up to why Hamer should be dropped. Too many basic errors every game. Sullivan deserves a chance, im not saying he will be any better but we will not know if we dont give him a go. if we go up Hamers errors which he is geeting away with in L1 he will be made to pay for IMO.
Yes. Better. Even better not to start a thread entitled "time for a Change inbetween the sticks" when your club is 10 points clear at the top of the table and your keeper has let in ONE goal in the last FIVE games. Otherwise you might just get people choking on their lunch and pointing out how bloody ridiculous the entire premise is.
Slightly less ridiculous than this blinkered attitude that some people on here have that because of where we are in the league the individuals in the team are above any form of comment or criticism and that we should all just be sucking their dicks until such time as SCP decides to change things. Which he obviously won't because they're all perfect.
Hamer was fouled against Sheffield United, their player clearly pulled him back as he went to catch the ball that is why he dropped it. The TV pictures are inconclusive but from where I was I could see it clearly, you only have to look at the reaction of the Sheffield United players, hardly any protest, to know that the referee was right.
Yes. Better. Even better not to start a thread entitled "time for a Change inbetween the sticks" when your club is 10 points clear at the top of the table and your keeper has let in ONE goal in the last FIVE games. Otherwise you might just get people choking on their lunch and pointing out how bloody ridiculous the entire premise is.
Slightly less ridiculous than this blinkered attitude that some people on here have that because of where we are in the league the individuals in the team are above any form of comment or criticism and that we should all just be sucking their dicks until such time as SCP decides to change things. Which he obviously won't because they're all perfect.
For fuck's sake, get over yourselves.
Absolutely nothing wrong with constructive criticism but some people seem to be oblivious to the facts and are advocating change even though it would be virtually impossible to improve our record doing so.
And to prove the point here is the record of our established back 5 when they have all played the full game:
P 21 W15 D6 L0 F42 A15
When that back 5 hasn't played the full 90 minutes our results have been:
P 7 W4 D1 L2 F11 A5
So, we are unbeaten with that back 5. In the last 10 games with that defence we have conceded just 6 goals which is as many as some teams let in one match. Why destabilise that unit by dropping the keeper now?
The other thing to bear in mind is that it is the sum of the total and not necessarily the quality of the individuals that leads to success as evidenced by the likes of Steve Bruce and Nigel Winterburn not making it at International level but being important parts of arguably the two best defences the Premier League has ever seen.
If Hamer loses the confidence of the rest of the defence then SCP will soon act. If he thinks he isn't good enough for the Championship he will no doubt bring someone in.
But if it ain't broke why fix it especailly as no one can be certain that a change is going to improve things.
This entire thread has to be a complete wind up. If it is then congratulations I am biting. If it is not then I have to assume that many contributors have never stepped on a football field in their lives. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but as with all things the value of that opinion is somewhat tempered by whether you actually have any idea what you are talking about.
I am disappointed Hamer did not do better with the goal last night, but it happens. The forward was clear, 15yds out, with Hamer 5yds off his line and looking to react to a shot to either side - instead it came virtually straight above him. He had less reaction time than for a penalty. Hamer was not responsible for conceding the goal - 2 central defenders failed to win the initial ball and/or read the run off the ball quickly enough - a rarity for Morrison and Taylor. Could Hamer have done better? I suspect he would like to think so. Now please detail all the other mistakes he made last night.
Tell me what is the point of highlighting his errors? Do you seriously expect players to play a competitive game and walk off at the end having not made at least 10 mistakes? For the most part you hope they will be minor or have no consequence but occasionally they will. How many mistakes do any of us make in our jobs, day in day out?
In terms of Hamer's overall ability statistics do play their part. Argue all you like about Solly, Morrison, Taylor and Wiggins but were they altogether with Hamer at Brentford and Exeter (obviously Taylor was) where in the past 2 seasons his statistics are largely the same 29 clean sheets in 80 appearences? He has played a full part in the progress of the team this year.
As for making changes - you do not make changes on the basis of giving someone else a chance. This is not the school first team. You make changes on the basis IT WILL improve the team. Who else do you really think would be better and why? What do you base your opinions of those keepers on?
Hamer is a very decent keeper, has all the right physical and apparently mental attributes to continue to develop. He is 24 with at least 10/12 years ahead of him. Most keepers do not reach their peak until 28. Crucially for me his whole approach in terms of "positive defending" and interaction with his back four augur well for the future. That is no guarantee he will continue to develop but there is every indication he will. I look forward to that.
A striker misses three open goals but scores a hatrick. We lose 4-3.
A keeper lets one through his legs but saves three pens in the game (none of which he gives away). We lose 1-0.
Which one is the likely candidate for the boo boys?
Sorry but this is totally missing the point. Hamer was not just shit last night. He is shit.
I am amazed that people continue to defend him, and just look at statistics as if that proves he's brilliant. Actually WATCH him and you will see.
Yep and he's been so bad this season that we have the best defensive goal to game ratio out of every one of the 92 clubs.
But none of that is down to Hamer and had we had say Hart and could afford to pay him £100K a week we might have an even better record.
In the land of the blind the one eyed goalie is king.
Thanks for responding to me pointing out that stastics alone don't tell the story by using statistics.
No problem. I note that you haven't responded regarding the understanding the keeper enjoys with the defence.
But don't let the facts get in the way.
When we start losing games and it is down to him he should be dropped. If and when we go up and he proves not good enough he should be replaced. But why disrupt a successful unit? The two games we did that (Hamer sending off and "resting" of Solly) we lost.
OK I'll respond to the point about understanding. This takes time to build up - pretty obivously. If Sullivan was given the chance he would obviously build up that relationship. If you get a pin in your foot and it hurts when you walk you don't just leave it because its in so whats the poiint of the pain of pulling it out. Whilst pulling it out might hurt a lot in the long run your foot will stop bleeding. If he hadn't let in that goal we would have won last night so he shouldn't get credit for out attackers being good enough to overcome the defecit. What facts am I ignorning? - I am simply not relying on stats alone like everyone has to if they want to defend him.
Agreed that every player makes mistakes but I believe that Hamer makes far more mistakes than any other player in the first team, therefore he should be dropped. Just because he is young does not excuse the fact that he flaps on alot of crosses and is far too erratic. Dropping him would be a test of his character, you would hope he would realise what he needs to improve on and work hard in training so next time he gets a chance he will take it.
I really really don't get this attitude of - if we are top of the league then clearly all 11 men on the pitch are indivdually excellent.
I suspect those defending him are the same ones who wanted Parky to stay because he would change it around eventually and a new manager might be even worse.
I really really don't get this attitude of - if we are top of the league then clearly all 11 men on the pitch are indivdually excellent.
I suspect those defending him are the same ones who wanted Parky to stay because he would change it around eventually and a new manager might be even worse.
Please read my comment re sum of the total on you first point.
And regarding Parky you couldn't be more wrong so far as I'm concerned with, somewhat ironically, him not giving Randy a chance being a major issue for me.
I didn't go to Orient, but as stated above, my opinion is not based on one game. If I had gone to Orient and seen Hamer have a blinding game I would still think he is the weakest link, it would not be right or fair to change my opinon on one game would it?
Agree with AA that Randolph was a weird decision and reminded me when someone pointed out earlier that the 'best' keeper isn't always the one picked.
I really really don't get this attitude of - if we are top of the league then clearly all 11 men on the pitch are indivdually excellent.
I suspect those defending him are the same ones who wanted Parky to stay because he would change it around eventually and a new manager might be even worse.
It isn't just that we are top of the league, it is the fact that defensively we are extremely strong and HAmer is an important part of that defence as the win at Exeter in the previous game highlighted. Whilst Hamer was at fault yesterday, the point is that all keepers make errors. He has room for improvement with crosses but he is not afraid to go for them and is improving and generally he is a decent shop stopper . Also, his kick can be a weapon which has led to goals on mor ethan one occasion. I think the cross peopl ethink Hamer flapped at yesterday, he didn't - he intended to get sufficient contact for the ball to go outside the area wide- it was a better option than a more substantial punch forwards of the goal. He didn't have much else to do.
Sullivan has had opportunities to impress but his ability in dealing with crosses hasn't done it for me. He needs to convince Chrissy he is better than Hamer and then he will play, but I don't think he is at present so that is going to be hard. Both are young and it is quite possible Sullivan will improve his game faster than Hamer and become no1 but he needs to show evidence he has done that before I will be calling for him in the team.
I really really don't get this attitude of - if we are top of the league then clearly all 11 men on the pitch are indivdually excellent.
I suspect those defending him are the same ones who wanted Parky to stay because he would change it around eventually and a new manager might be even worse.
what a stupid comment
Where as that is a well-rounded and informative one.
I didn't go to Orient, but as stated above, my opinion is not based on one game. If I had gone to Orient and seen Hamer have a blinding game I would still think he is the weakest link, it would not be right or fair to change my opinon on one game would it?
Agree with AA that Randolph was a weird decision and reminded me when someone pointed out earlier that the 'best' keeper isn't always the one picked.
Oh dear. The reason I asked you about Orient was because for 84 minutes Sullivan was in goal.
I think I am losing the will to live, and will let this thread go.
I really really don't get this attitude of - if we are top of the league then clearly all 11 men on the pitch are indivdually excellent.
I suspect those defending him are the same ones who wanted Parky to stay because he would change it around eventually and a new manager might be even worse.
I suspect those attacking him are the same ones who wanted Curbs to go because he had taken us as far as he could and we needed a better manager if we were to get to the next level.
Yes. Better. Even better not to start a thread entitled "time for a Change inbetween the sticks" when your club is 10 points clear at the top of the table and your keeper has let in ONE goal in the last FIVE games. Otherwise you might just get people choking on their lunch and pointing out how bloody ridiculous the entire premise is.
Slightly less ridiculous than this blinkered attitude that some people on here have that because of where we are in the league the individuals in the team are above any form of comment or criticism and that we should all just be sucking their dicks until such time as SCP decides to change things. Which he obviously won't because they're all perfect.
For fuck's sake, get over yourselves.
Absolutely nothing wrong with constructive criticism but some people seem to be oblivious to the facts and are advocating change even though it would be virtually impossible to improve our record doing so.
And to prove the point here is the record of our established back 5 when they have all played the full game:
P 21 W15 D6 L0 F42 A15
When that back 5 hasn't played the full 90 minutes our results have been:
P 7 W4 D1 L2 F11 A5
So, we are unbeaten with that back 5. In the last 10 games with that defence we have conceded just 6 goals which is as many as some teams let in one match. Why destabilise that unit by dropping the keeper now?
The other thing to bear in mind is that it is the sum of the total and not necessarily the quality of the individuals that leads to success as evidenced by the likes of Steve Bruce and Nigel Winterburn not making it at International level but being important parts of arguably the two best defences the Premier League has ever seen.
If Hamer loses the confidence of the rest of the defence then SCP will soon act. If he thinks he isn't good enough for the Championship he will no doubt bring someone in.
But if it ain't broke why fix it especailly as no one can be certain that a change is going to improve things.
your stats are not quite correct, our established back 5 started against Orient but due to Hamers erractic decision to charge out his box in the 6th min and get send off, we lost the game, not saying it was entirely his fault, didnt help tho.
Comments
Sorry every single player in the squad is amazing. Better?"
Yes. Better. Even better not to start a thread entitled "time for a Change inbetween the sticks" when your club is 10 points clear at the top of the table and your keeper has let in ONE goal in the last FIVE games. Otherwise you might just get people choking on their lunch and pointing out how bloody ridiculous the entire premise is.
last night he let a shot past him which on any other occasion he would save. shot stoping is one of his main qualities.
why havent we let that many goals in?
1. our defence is extremlly solid and is covered well by the midfield and the tactics created by Powell.
2. Other teams in this division arent that good. usually get a chance and fluff it. (exter should of scored but instead the guy hoofs it over the bar.) The shots either get stoped by our keeper or they might go in. or they probably more than likley just miss it.
3. Carrying on with other teams; in league 1 its extremlly difficult to get a good striker. None of our strikers have been scoring. we have been fortunated in the last 4 games to be getting goals that are from little moments of magic or in greens case a bit of a fluke (with help from yann and yet another keeper who makes mistakes)
4. They are playing top of the league opponents, so most teams are defensive against us. frightened of our attacking qualities and those moments of magic.
5. For some odd reason other teams dont bombared Hamer with crosses but we all know why that is.... the brilliance of Solly and wiggins. And if they do get through, the no noncence approach of defending by our centre backs cleares it most times.
Hamer- he's a good keeper. Good shot stoper, good distribution, seems like a real charactor. He has however been lucky to play in a team and in a league that stops him from being exposed.
Now apply that to Hamer. Is it really that silly a question to ask that there should be a change? I don't think so. Personally I have my doubts about Sullivan but without a real run of games we won't know for sure if he is any better than Hamer or not.
Hamer might be better than Sullivan, but that doesn't mean contructive criticism can't be made, and it's not unreasonable to think ahead to next season when any keeper of ours will be a LOT busier. Indeed, it is difficult to judge him fairly at the moment as he has few games when he has much to do, I'm struggling to think of a match when he was the MoM, the guy who won a game single handed, as the rest of the team has done it for him.
You haven't properly backed up your statement, only by saying Sullivan should be in goal but being very honest, Sullivan hasnt looked better than Hamer.
Sorry pal but your just another negative norris!
far from being a negative norris, i put 50 quid on us to win the league before the season started.
I have backed my point up to why Hamer should be dropped. Too many basic errors every game. Sullivan deserves a chance, im not saying he will be any better but we will not know if we dont give him a go. if we go up Hamers errors which he is geeting away with in L1 he will be made to pay for IMO.
For fuck's sake, get over yourselves.
And to prove the point here is the record of our established back 5 when they have all played the full game:
P 21 W15 D6 L0 F42 A15
When that back 5 hasn't played the full 90 minutes our results have been:
P 7 W4 D1 L2 F11 A5
So, we are unbeaten with that back 5. In the last 10 games with that defence we have conceded just 6 goals which is as many as some teams let in one match. Why destabilise that unit by dropping the keeper now?
The other thing to bear in mind is that it is the sum of the total and not necessarily the quality of the individuals that leads to success as evidenced by the likes of Steve Bruce and Nigel Winterburn not making it at International level but being important parts of arguably the two best defences the Premier League has ever seen.
If Hamer loses the confidence of the rest of the defence then SCP will soon act. If he thinks he isn't good enough for the Championship he will no doubt bring someone in.
But if it ain't broke why fix it especailly as no one can be certain that a change is going to improve things.
I am disappointed Hamer did not do better with the goal last night, but it happens. The forward was clear, 15yds out, with Hamer 5yds off his line and looking to react to a shot to either side - instead it came virtually straight above him. He had less reaction time than for a penalty. Hamer was not responsible for conceding the goal - 2 central defenders failed to win the initial ball and/or read the run off the ball quickly enough - a rarity for Morrison and Taylor. Could Hamer have done better? I suspect he would like to think so. Now please detail all the other mistakes he made last night.
Tell me what is the point of highlighting his errors? Do you seriously expect players to play a competitive game and walk off at the end having not made at least 10 mistakes? For the most part you hope they will be minor or have no consequence but occasionally they will. How many mistakes do any of us make in our jobs, day in day out?
In terms of Hamer's overall ability statistics do play their part. Argue all you like about Solly, Morrison, Taylor and Wiggins but were they altogether with Hamer at Brentford and Exeter (obviously Taylor was) where in the past 2 seasons his statistics are largely the same 29 clean sheets in 80 appearences? He has played a full part in the progress of the team this year.
As for making changes - you do not make changes on the basis of giving someone else a chance. This is not the school first team. You make changes on the basis IT WILL improve the team. Who else do you really think would be better and why? What do you base your opinions of those keepers on?
Hamer is a very decent keeper, has all the right physical and apparently mental attributes to continue to develop. He is 24 with at least 10/12 years ahead of him. Most keepers do not reach their peak until 28. Crucially for me his whole approach in terms of "positive defending" and interaction with his back four augur well for the future. That is no guarantee he will continue to develop but there is every indication he will. I look forward to that.
Grapevine49
If he hadn't let in that goal we would have won last night so he shouldn't get credit for out attackers being good enough to overcome the defecit.
What facts am I ignorning? - I am simply not relying on stats alone like everyone has to if they want to defend him.
I suspect those defending him are the same ones who wanted Parky to stay because he would change it around eventually and a new manager might be even worse.
And regarding Parky you couldn't be more wrong so far as I'm concerned with, somewhat ironically, him not giving Randy a chance being a major issue for me.
You didnt go to Orient, did you?
Agree with AA that Randolph was a weird decision and reminded me when someone pointed out earlier that the 'best' keeper isn't always the one picked.
Sullivan has had opportunities to impress but his ability in dealing with crosses hasn't done it for me. He needs to convince Chrissy he is better than Hamer and then he will play, but I don't think he is at present so that is going to be hard. Both are young and it is quite possible Sullivan will improve his game faster than Hamer and become no1 but he needs to show evidence he has done that before I will be calling for him in the team.
Oh dear. The reason I asked you about Orient was because for 84 minutes Sullivan was in goal.
I think I am losing the will to live, and will let this thread go.
your stats are not quite correct, our established back 5 started against Orient but due to Hamers erractic decision to charge out his box in the 6th min and get send off, we lost the game, not saying it was entirely his fault, didnt help tho.