On the twitter as I understand it if you put a #cafc tag it goes to thousands of other CAFC fans on twitter and the tweeter knows that when they do it. So not a "overheard" tweet to a mate but a public announcement. Regardless it's stupid, ignorant thing to send.
"On the twitter"? Oh dear Henry, that makes you sound like a high court judge. :-) Fair point though.
What I thought pathetic was two guys behind me singing it all through h second half with no-one joining in. I thought that singing was meant to get behind the team anyway. A stupid song but less offensive than the incest song in my opinion.
I feel ashamed and embarrassed when these stupid chants ring out because they do not represent all CAFC fans and I don't want kids hearing it. What seemed a shame to me was that the 'Red Army' chant that echoed for so long at Notts County did not ring for as long at Sheffield. Let's get behind the team as it was a great win.
Long before this forum there was that email thing you could sign up to. There were discussions about swearing and chanting back then. I used to say it was harmless fun while some of the guys on there (and probably here) pointed out it was more than that, and I was potentially offending a lot of people (at least when not in the F block!).
The next time I went to the ground, I realised what they meant. And have largely refrained from the language and vitriol I once thought acceptable.
To claim a discussion is "a waste of time" is at best lazy, and at worst a little naive. If you want to focus on the score, there's another thread for that...
Was trying to keep out of this one, but, Route One said:
wouldnt of been charged if there wasnt enough evidence to do so. To be honest i was at the game I did see it as abit of a laugh. Makes a change from the usual red army over and over. Looking back at it maybe the girl wouldnt see it as one aswell but i dont regret the she said no song.
Just hope that You, Mr One, never have to go to court, 6 months after being charged, had your home,job and Life being taken from You and THEN found "Not Guilty". You Pratt ! [Edit: Sorry about the swearing but people like him.....Sorry}
Just hope that You, Mr One, never have to go to court, 6 months after being charged, had your home,job and Life being taken from You and THEN found "Not Guilty". You Pratt !
Thats what happens to normal people. He still gets to keep all that and play football while earning 15k roughly
EDIT - Just realised you was replying to someone and not specifically on about Evans.
Regardless of what i think about the sick chants etc the way i see it is that those who sit there in silence and then meekly "voice" their disapprovement on an internet forum about it are almost as bad as those chanting the stuff.
If you hear stuff you dont like then speak up about it at the time to the perpertrators if you are that strong in your convictions. It is ok to sit there button lipped for fear of totally unwarrented confrontation and perfectly understandable but to say nothing and then pipe up on the internet i find hypocritical and akin to running to tell a non- existent teacher cant do anything about it.
Things dont change unless people have the bollocks to speak up. The racist stuff for example i know for example if i heard anyone abusing someone on those lines that i would and the people i go football with would pull them up....unless it was evident id get my head caved in for doing so....in which case id keep schtum about it and hate myself for not being brave enough to speak up. I certainly wouldnt keep schtum and then come anonymously on the world wide web to piously pour scorn on it from the comfort of my keyboard trying to make myself feel better for not speaking out and justify me being such a wonderful moral person.
Just hope that You, Mr One, never have to go to court, 6 months after being charged, had your home,job and Life being taken from You and THEN found "Not Guilty". You Pratt !
Thats what happens to normal people. He still gets to keep all that and play football while earning 15k roughly
EDIT - Just realised you was replying to someone and not specifically on about Evans.
Think this has been misunderstood i was specifically reffering to ched evans who hasnt lost his job or home as he is still on 20K a week and playing well. obviously i dont know how it has really affected him within his personal life.
Edit. i didnt realise the post above and i am sorry to hear this as to the wages there are sources on the internet claiming he is on 20K a week
Regardless of what i think about the sick chants etc the way i see it is that those who sit there in silence and then meekly "voice" their disapprovement on an internet forum about it are almost as bad as those chanting the stuff.
If you hear stuff you dont like then speak up about it at the time to the perpertrators if you are that strong in your convictions. It is ok to sit there button lipped for fear of totally unwarrented confrontation and perfectly understandable but to say nothing and then pipe up on the internet i find hypocritical and akin to running to tell a non- existent teacher cant do anything about it.
Things dont change unless people have the bollocks to speak up. The racist stuff for example i know for example if i heard anyone abusing someone on those lines that i would and the people i go football with would pull them up....unless it was evident id get my head caved in for doing so....in which case id keep schtum about it and hate myself for not being brave enough to speak up. I certainly wouldnt keep schtum and then come anonymously on the world wide web to piously pour scorn on it from the comfort of my keyboard trying to make myself feel better for not speaking out and justify me being such a wonderful moral person.
OK RCT, let me give you an example. A few years back I took my son to Operation Riverside. It was the first time we had done this kind of thing together. Behind us sat some people in high spirits. They handed out balloons and were giving it large before the game started. My son thought they were great and he was laughing along with them.
As the game started they changed and became verbally abusive. Their swearing became more and more unpleasant - all the 'Boro players were "c*nts" and some were "f*cking c*nts", however the they singled out Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink for the worst abuse because he was a "fat lazy f*cking black c*nt".
I was there on my own with an eight year old.
Should I have -
1. Left the ground and missed much of the game(couldn't move to another seat) and vow never to take him again?
2. Called a steward - drawing more attention to it and causing my son some distress as they try and deal with it
3. Told them to shut up - with the ensuing aggro that would have frightened the life out of my lad?
4. Ignored it and then deal with it by explaining that some people get worked up at football and use foul language, but we in our family would never use that kind of language about a player or any other human being.
5. Anything else you care to suggest?
I chose 4 by the way. Not pathetic, not cowardly, just finding a way of helping an eight year old to cope with the indefensible.
What I dislike is inconsiderate people who think that they can behave just as they want without any care for where they are and who might be affected by their actions and then come onto football forums and try and defend the indefensible by accusing others of a lack of moral fibre.
Regardless of what i think about the sick chants etc the way i see it is that those who sit there in silence and then meekly "voice" their disapprovement on an internet forum about it are almost as bad as those chanting wonderful
It is ok to sit there button lipped for fear of totally unwarrented confrontation and perfectly understandable but to say nothing and then pipe up on the internet i find hypocritical and akin to running to tell a non- existent teacher cant do anything about it.
It's hardly surprising that people don't always speak up in public, when just talking about an issue on the intranet is enough to get one branded a hypocrite.
Bing - respect - I'm no coward and would front up but I take my 10 year old to games and watching his old man get into a fight with an amoeba isn't the best thing for him to see. So yes I tell him exactly what you did - it's called parental responsibility. If more people understood what that meant in this broken society, we might have something they used to refer to as standards.
And as I can't deal with it on my own in the ground I'll debate it with fellow fans on here - the majority - the vast majority -who are decent people - we won't agree on everything to do with football but I know the people on here with standards. The problem is that if you are ignorant you by definition don't know you are. If I saw a comment about 'queer bashing' whetehr it was meant for me to see or not, I would be offended. Decent people have been killed because it was thought funny to go queer bashing. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
I can only repeat - If you are ignorant, by definition, you don't know you are!
Ok let me expand my views on this.
There certain players in this country that don't deserve to be in football. If your a football player and your guilty for what you have done e.g killed someone, raped someone etc then they should be banned from football for life. The likes of Hughes who is still earning wages and doing well for Notts County - what example is that to potential young footballers? It is too right we chant at Ched Evans who apparently raped someone, also he is an opposition player so players take these kind of chants thrown in at them and they learn to ignore it. If it was the home fans attacking their own player then we have to ask questions.
What we should get annoyed about is Arsenal fans chanting at Adebayor which is disgusting and totally disrepectful but as Harry Redknapp said "There was some pretty disgusting chanting at me as well but that's life, thats football" The Ched Evans chant is nowhere near as bad as this.
Regardless of what i think about the sick chants etc the way i see it is that those who sit there in silence and then meekly "voice" their disapprovement on an internet forum about it are almost as bad as those chanting the stuff.
If you hear stuff you dont like then speak up about it at the time to the perpertrators if you are that strong in your convictions. It is ok to sit there button lipped for fear of totally unwarrented confrontation and perfectly understandable but to say nothing and then pipe up on the internet i find hypocritical and akin to running to tell a non- existent teacher cant do anything about it.
Things dont change unless people have the bollocks to speak up. The racist stuff for example i know for example if i heard anyone abusing someone on those lines that i would and the people i go football with would pull them up....unless it was evident id get my head caved in for doing so....in which case id keep schtum about it and hate myself for not being brave enough to speak up. I certainly wouldnt keep schtum and then come anonymously on the world wide web to piously pour scorn on it from the comfort of my keyboard trying to make myself feel better for not speaking out and justify me being such a wonderful moral person.
OK RCT, let me give you an example. A few years back I took my son to Operation Riverside. It was the first time we had done this kind of thing together. Behind us sat some people in high spirits. They handed out balloons and were giving it large before the game started. My son thought they were great and he was laughing along with them.
As the game started they changed and became verbally abusive. Their swearing became more and more unpleasant - all the 'Boro players were "c*nts" and some were "f*cking c*nts", however the they singled out Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink for the worst abuse because he was a "fat lazy f*cking black c*nt".
I was there on my own with an eight year old.
Should I have -
1. Left the ground and missed much of the game(couldn't move to another seat) and vow never to take him again?
2. Called a steward - drawing more attention to it and causing my son some distress as they try and deal with it
3. Told them to shut up - with the ensuing aggro that would have frightened the life out of my lad?
4. Ignored it and then deal with it by explaining that some people get worked up at football and use foul language, but we in our family would never use that kind of language about a player or any other human being.
5. Anything else you care to suggest?
I chose 4 by the way. Not pathetic, not cowardly, just finding a way of helping an eight year old to cope with the indefensible.
What I dislike is inconsiderate people who think that they can behave just as they want without any care for where they are and who might be affected by their I actions and then come onto football forums and try and defend the indefensible by accusing others of a lack of moral fibre.
I completely agree Bing and I would have chose 4 too. My point is that I wouldnt have then gone on the internet as "Disgusted of Tonbridge Wells" to complain about it had i not complained about it at the time. Showing digust (rightly in many cases) on a forum is not going to change anything....the idiots will still be there next week saying the same stuff. Its only when people speak up to others there and then that it would get a reaction and may cause them to think twice. And as you say 90% of the time it wouldnt be a good reaction and therefore sensible to keep quiet.
The point i was making is that i find the empty anoymous talk in cyberspace a bit like pissing in the wind that wont change anything.
If a player is found guity of rape- I'd be happy to boo him- but with Evans a) he has not been found guilty yet and b) the song was potentially offensive to his victim if he was guilty. I don't mind people booing Lee Hughes as we know what he did and that he was guilty. We also might think him playing football and living the dream isn't right when a man he killed is dead. A jokey song isn't appropriate but booing and letting him know how will feel is.
We have our lines and some might be in different places- I might be too sensitive -I can accept that - but soemtimes people cross a line that any decent person can't accept. By debating on here we are appealing to the people who think it is funny to think again. Maybe if nobody thought it was funny and more people thought it pathetic, people wouldn't do it so chatting on an influential forum like CL can have an impact. It probably won't but it can.
'By debating on here we are appealing to the people who think it is funny to think again.'
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I think I can confidently say that the opposite will occur. The Adams Family song for example would have drifted off the spectrum after a few games had not a big sense of outrage been aired on the internet.
Some people don't just enjoy winding up the opposition you know....
If a player is found guity of rape- I'd be happy to boo him- but with Evans a) he has not been found guilty yet and b) the song was potentially offensive to his victim if he was guilty. I don't mind people booing Lee Hughes as we know what he did and that he was guilty. We also might think him playing football and living the dream isn't right when a man he killed is dead. A jokey song isn't appropriate but booing and letting him know how will feel is.
We have our lines and some might be in different places- I might be too sensitive -I can accept that - but soemtimes people cross a line that any decent person can't accept. By debating on here we are appealing to the people who think it is funny to think again. Maybe if nobody thought it was funny and more people thought it pathetic, people wouldn't do it so chatting on an influential forum like CL can have an impact. It probably won't but it can.
Fair enough but these players should or do learn to ignore the chant. The Adebayor chant I do hope the fans who chanted the Evans one knows not to chant anything like the Adebayor one. Evans is just like an opposition player, we class them as an enemy so we throw our chants at them. They need to be thick skinned to learn to deal with this, whether you like it or not. Like players who get racist abuse, we all know that is unacceptable but players know to ignore this stupidity from the people chanting this. After the game the club should take appropiate action.
I don't believe the Ched Evans chant is enough for the club to take action because I find it trivial and I heard chants far worse than this.
There are ways of dealing with it- the obscene stuff i mean. Like i said, stewards were slow on saturday, -maybe their policy was to wait and see if anyone complained, and there was no police in that stand that i saw- and in the second half those same stewards- female - came in for sexually oriented abuse themselves, from the same few individuals. So that was disgusting too, but it was the very same individuals from that small group at the back of block E. The same ones who found in amusing to shout show us your g*sh to women walking by on the touch line. I didn't recognise any of them, but i think this small group is probably behind most of the distasteful stuff that now gets mentioned at our games from time to time on here.
Just wondering, but does anyone here stand outside prisons and chant at convicted murderers? People are saying it's fine to chant at criminal footballers at football matches like there's dignity in it as long as they're guilty.
To put this into context I'm pretty sure Evans will get this level of abuse for the foreseeable future from opposition fans. Hughes will also continue to get stick wherever he plays.
To think that we would be the only club to not chant abuse at a player either charged or convicted with a serious crime is very unrealistic
Some seem to be trying to put our fans on their own private pedestal - not sure why as we're only human, and therefore wouldn't expect us to be any better or worse than any other teams fans.
In some ways that's the saddest part of it DVDDD. Not even very original, just sheep following others.
You're spot on that Evans will get the same if not worse at most grounds but a few Charlton fans were singing the Adebyore song at MK. Nothing to do with Charlton but it's a shocking song and they sing it to shock and impress their mates.
Do I expect our fans to be a bit better than the rest. Actually yes I do. Maybe I'm unrealistic but I was always proud that while there was racist chanting in our support it was less than elsewhere and that we as fans and a Club lead the way with the Anti-racist Red, White and Black days.
If you just say, "well everyone else does it so why should we be bother about it" then you've let them win.
I love being in noisy crowd with songs and a bit of humour. I don't even mind swearing that much. But I still think there is a line you don't cross and no amount of "its banter" or "it's football so anything is allowed" or "other clubs do it" or even "it's better than silence" wash for me. If it's wrong it's wrong.
And maybe the Evans chanting was close to the line and there is worse stuff but accepting it is the thin end of the wedge. I like Henry expect our club to be better than the rest. That doesn't mean not intimidating the ref and opponents but not in a racist, sexist or disgusting way. Mark Bright had an inetersting piece in today's Metro about distasteful chants and advocted clubs being docked points for it. If this continues that conclusion may just happen. Better to nip it in the bud now than find it is too powerful and pay the consequences later. At the moment it seems to be a small group of idiots - the club wouldn't be the poorer for them being identified, warned as to their future behaviour and banned.
Thanking about it, that policy probably played a big part in illiminating racism from the Valley. We know the club have a voice on thsi forum so maybe, unlike some have said, we can have a positive effect by posting on here.
Comments
The next time I went to the ground, I realised what they meant. And have largely refrained from the language and vitriol I once thought acceptable.
To claim a discussion is "a waste of time" is at best lazy, and at worst a little naive. If you want to focus on the score, there's another thread for that...
Just hope that You, Mr One, never have to go to court, 6 months after being charged, had your home,job and Life being taken from You and THEN found "Not Guilty". You Pratt !
[Edit: Sorry about the swearing but people like him.....Sorry}
Just hope that You, Mr One, never have to go to court, 6 months after being charged, had your home,job and Life being taken from You and THEN found "Not Guilty". You Pratt !
Thats what happens to normal people. He still gets to keep all that and play football while earning 15k roughly
EDIT - Just realised you was replying to someone and not specifically on about Evans.
Regardless of what i think about the sick chants etc the way i see it is that those who sit there in silence and then meekly "voice" their disapprovement on an internet forum about it are almost as bad as those chanting the stuff.
If you hear stuff you dont like then speak up about it at the time to the perpertrators if you are that strong in your convictions. It is ok to sit there button lipped for fear of totally unwarrented confrontation and perfectly understandable but to say nothing and then pipe up on the internet i find hypocritical and akin to running to tell a non- existent teacher cant do anything about it.
Things dont change unless people have the bollocks to speak up. The racist stuff for example i know for example if i heard anyone abusing someone on those lines that i would and the people i go football with would pull them up....unless it was evident id get my head caved in for doing so....in which case id keep schtum about it and hate myself for not being brave enough to speak up. I certainly wouldnt keep schtum and then come anonymously on the world wide web to piously pour scorn on it from the comfort of my keyboard trying to make myself feel better for not speaking out and justify me being such a wonderful moral person.
Think this has been misunderstood i was specifically reffering to ched evans who hasnt lost his job or home as he is still on 20K a week and playing well. obviously i dont know how it has really affected him within his personal life.
Edit. i didnt realise the post above and i am sorry to hear this
as to the wages there are sources on the internet claiming he is on 20K a week
And as I can't deal with it on my own in the ground I'll debate it with fellow fans on here - the majority - the vast majority -who are decent people - we won't agree on everything to do with football but I know the people on here with standards. The problem is that if you are ignorant you by definition don't know you are. If I saw a comment about 'queer bashing' whetehr it was meant for me to see or not, I would be offended. Decent people have been killed because it was thought funny to go queer bashing. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Its just a chant. Just like we give Hughes abuse about him being a murderer.
If you heard what Arsenal fans were chanting at Adebayor it was 10 times worse and that was digusting from them.
There certain players in this country that don't deserve to be in football. If your a football player and your guilty for what you have done e.g killed someone, raped someone etc then they should be banned from football for life. The likes of Hughes who is still earning wages and doing well for Notts County - what example is that to potential young footballers? It is too right we chant at Ched Evans who apparently raped someone, also he is an opposition player so players take these kind of chants thrown in at them and they learn to ignore it. If it was the home fans attacking their own player then we have to ask questions.
What we should get annoyed about is Arsenal fans chanting at Adebayor which is disgusting and totally disrepectful but as Harry Redknapp said "There was some pretty disgusting chanting at me as well but that's life, thats football" The Ched Evans chant is nowhere near as bad as this.
I completely agree Bing and I would have chose 4 too. My point is that I wouldnt have then gone on the internet as "Disgusted of Tonbridge Wells" to complain about it had i not complained about it at the time. Showing digust (rightly in many cases) on a forum is not going to change anything....the idiots will still be there next week saying the same stuff. Its only when people speak up to others there and then that it would get a reaction and may cause them to think twice. And as you say 90% of the time it wouldnt be a good reaction and therefore sensible to keep quiet.
The point i was making is that i find the empty anoymous talk in cyberspace a bit like pissing in the wind that wont change anything.
We have our lines and some might be in different places- I might be too sensitive -I can accept that - but soemtimes people cross a line that any decent person can't accept. By debating on here we are appealing to the people who think it is funny to think again. Maybe if nobody thought it was funny and more people thought it pathetic, people wouldn't do it so chatting on an influential forum like CL can have an impact. It probably won't but it can.
--------
I think I can confidently say that the opposite will occur. The Adams Family song for example would have drifted off the spectrum after a few games had not a big sense of outrage been aired on the internet.
Some people don't just enjoy winding up the opposition you know....
I don't believe the Ched Evans chant is enough for the club to take action because I find it trivial and I heard chants far worse than this.
What's the point, he's never even played against us??
You're spot on that Evans will get the same if not worse at most grounds but a few Charlton fans were singing the Adebyore song at MK. Nothing to do with Charlton but it's a shocking song and they sing it to shock and impress their mates.
Do I expect our fans to be a bit better than the rest. Actually yes I do. Maybe I'm unrealistic but I was always proud that while there was racist chanting in our support it was less than elsewhere and that we as fans and a Club lead the way with the Anti-racist Red, White and Black days.
If you just say, "well everyone else does it so why should we be bother about it" then you've let them win.
I love being in noisy crowd with songs and a bit of humour. I don't even mind swearing that much. But I still think there is a line you don't cross and no amount of "its banter" or "it's football so anything is allowed" or "other clubs do it" or even "it's better than silence" wash for me. If it's wrong it's wrong.
And maybe the Evans chanting was close to the line and there is worse stuff but accepting it is the thin end of the wedge. I like Henry expect our club to be better than the rest. That doesn't mean not intimidating the ref and opponents but not in a racist, sexist or disgusting way. Mark Bright had an inetersting piece in today's Metro about distasteful chants and advocted clubs being docked points for it. If this continues that conclusion may just happen. Better to nip it in the bud now than find it is too powerful and pay the consequences later. At the moment it seems to be a small group of idiots - the club wouldn't be the poorer for them being identified, warned as to their future behaviour and banned.
Thanking about it, that policy probably played a big part in illiminating racism from the Valley. We know the club have a voice on thsi forum so maybe, unlike some have said, we can have a positive effect by posting on here.