Reading the Jermain Defoe thread got me thinking, despite having both a controversial career on and off the pitch Jermain Defoe is rightly being given credit for his love and affection towards young Bradley. A 10 seconds google search lead me to all these articles of which some I knew about and others was a first like helping the pregnant English girl. Is James Mclean as bad as he is made out to be? If so, what would make this evil man do these good deeds?
Completely irrelevant. He may do some charitable work but he's still massively disrespected Great Britain and disrespected all those who have fought for this country and other counties that use the poppy as a mark of respect and rememberance to their fallen soliders.
The issue is that each year he will do the continue to do the same and his 'reasoning' doesn't wash with me one bit.
Whether or not I agree with his stance on the poppy, choosing not to wear it is not massively disrespecting Great Britain (or even the United Kingdom) and all those who have fought in all wars on its behalf, or for other countries that use a poppy for the purposes of commemoration.
I think he's a complete eejit, but McClean has made it clear that his objection arises in relation purely to circumstances relating to his place of birth.
His objection, rightly or wrongly, is to the expectation that he must wear a poppy, when that will be associated with support for those who served in Derry during the Troubles (a service that is not without at least some controversy). He has been clear that if it was worn in honour of those who had fought in the World Wars (and he probably would have little difficulty with Korea, the Falklands, etc.) he would have no problem, and I have no doubt that he has no concerns regarding Commonwealth or other military charities that also use the poppy.
Whether we like it or not, the wearing of the poppy is a political statement in Northern Ireland - there is almost no way that someone from an Irish nationalist background, such as McClean's, would wear one.
I quite happily donate money to the collections, but have never worn a poppy (but then, I do the same for all charitable collections, be they Oxfam, RNLI, etc.).
Reading the Jermain Defoe thread got me thinking, despite having both a controversial career on and off the pitch Jermain Defoe is rightly being given credit for his love and affection towards young Bradley. A 10 seconds google search lead me to all these articles of which some I knew about and others was a first like helping the pregnant English girl. Is James Mclean as bad as he is made out to be? If so, what would make this evil man do these good deeds?
Completely irrelevant. He may do some charitable work but he's still massively disrespected Great Britain and disrespected all those who have fought for this country and other counties that use the poppy as a mark of respect and rememberance to their fallen soliders.
The issue is that each year he will do the continue to do the same and his 'reasoning' doesn't wash with me one
He does have the right, as a British citizen, to express his opinion. And to 'respect or disrespect' whatever or whoever he wants. There is a massive overreaction to him and what he says and does.
At no point have I questioned his right to express an opinion. But showing such disdain towards a nation and their fallen is completely disrespectful. Using his platform as a professional footballer to express that opinion on the one weekend of the year whereby football collectively pays respect however is irresponsible and inflammatory.
Do you think the Irish would put up with a similar situation on thier turf? No chance.
Reading the Jermain Defoe thread got me thinking, despite having both a controversial career on and off the pitch Jermain Defoe is rightly being given credit for his love and affection towards young Bradley. A 10 seconds google search lead me to all these articles of which some I knew about and others was a first like helping the pregnant English girl. Is James Mclean as bad as he is made out to be? If so, what would make this evil man do these good deeds?
Completely irrelevant. He may do some charitable work but he's still massively disrespected Great Britain and disrespected all those who have fought for this country and other counties that use the poppy as a mark of respect and rememberance to their fallen soliders.
The issue is that each year he will do the continue to do the same and his 'reasoning' doesn't wash with me one
He does have the right, as a British citizen, to express his opinion. And to 'respect or disrespect' whatever or whoever he wants. There is a massive overreaction to him and what he says and does.
He's Irish.
He's British if Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
Reading the Jermain Defoe thread got me thinking, despite having both a controversial career on and off the pitch Jermain Defoe is rightly being given credit for his love and affection towards young Bradley. A 10 seconds google search lead me to all these articles of which some I knew about and others was a first like helping the pregnant English girl. Is James Mclean as bad as he is made out to be? If so, what would make this evil man do these good deeds?
Completely irrelevant. He may do some charitable work but he's still massively disrespected Great Britain and disrespected all those who have fought for this country and other counties that use the poppy as a mark of respect and rememberance to their fallen soliders.
The issue is that each year he will do the continue to do the same and his 'reasoning' doesn't wash with me one
He does have the right, as a British citizen, to express his opinion. And to 'respect or disrespect' whatever or whoever he wants. There is a massive overreaction to him and what he says and does.
At no point have I questioned his right to express an opinion. But showing such disdain towards a nation and their fallen is completely disrespectful. Using his platform as a professional footballer to express that opinion on the one weekend of the year whereby football collectively pays respect however is irresponsible and inflammatory.
Do you think the Irish would put up with a similar situation on thier turf? No chance.
Reading the Jermain Defoe thread got me thinking, despite having both a controversial career on and off the pitch Jermain Defoe is rightly being given credit for his love and affection towards young Bradley. A 10 seconds google search lead me to all these articles of which some I knew about and others was a first like helping the pregnant English girl. Is James Mclean as bad as he is made out to be? If so, what would make this evil man do these good deeds?
Completely irrelevant. He may do some charitable work but he's still massively disrespected Great Britain and disrespected all those who have fought for this country and other counties that use the poppy as a mark of respect and rememberance to their fallen soliders.
The issue is that each year he will do the continue to do the same and his 'reasoning' doesn't wash with me one bit.
Whether or not I agree with his stance on the poppy, choosing not to wear it is not massively disrespecting Great Britain (or even the United Kingdom) and all those who have fought in all wars on its behalf, or for other countries that use a poppy for the purposes of commemoration.
I think he's a complete eejit, but McClean has made it clear that his objection arises in relation purely to circumstances relating to his place of birth.
His objection, rightly or wrongly, is to the expectation that he must wear a poppy, when that will be associated with support for those who served in Derry during the Troubles (a service that is not without at least some controversy). He has been clear that if it was worn in honour of those who had fought in the World Wars (and he probably would have little difficulty with Korea, the Falklands, etc.) he would have no problem, and I have no doubt that he has no concerns regarding Commonwealth or other military charities that also use the poppy.
Whether we like it or not, the wearing of the poppy is a political statement in Northern Ireland - there is almost no way that someone from an Irish nationalist background, such as McClean's, would wear one.
I quite happily donate money to the collections, but have never worn a poppy (but then, I do the same for all charitable collections, be they Oxfam, RNLI, etc.).
If he only refused to wear a poppy then the reaction would no doubt be a lot more reasonable.
however, I think he's disrespectful because as Me and you both know his actions go beyond just not wearing a poppy......
Reading the Jermain Defoe thread got me thinking, despite having both a controversial career on and off the pitch Jermain Defoe is rightly being given credit for his love and affection towards young Bradley. A 10 seconds google search lead me to all these articles of which some I knew about and others was a first like helping the pregnant English girl. Is James Mclean as bad as he is made out to be? If so, what would make this evil man do these good deeds?
Completely irrelevant. He may do some charitable work but he's still massively disrespected Great Britain and disrespected all those who have fought for this country and other counties that use the poppy as a mark of respect and rememberance to their fallen soliders.
The issue is that each year he will do the continue to do the same and his 'reasoning' doesn't wash with me one
He does have the right, as a British citizen, to express his opinion. And to 'respect or disrespect' whatever or whoever he wants. There is a massive overreaction to him and what he says and does.
He's Irish.
He's British if Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
He is Irish, as anyone born in Northern Ireland has a right to an Irish passport - which is why Ian Paisley Jr was advising those concerned about Brexit to go down that route.
Also, perhaps, within the UK, he could be Northern Irish (a term which he would probably not accept without holding a UK passport).
No he doesn't. He refuses to wear a poppy because of the atrocities the British army committed against his family/friends. And to him, that army is what the poppy represents, which is understandable.
"But he's still happy to take the Queen's shilling!!!111!!"
So is, for instance, Sergio Aguero (Argentina and the Falklands - link here); so are lots of Republic players plying their trade in the English leagues... Like, what's your point? You may not agree with everything the government does, but we will all happily take a salary, right?
--------
Ultimately, I understand and in fact agree with a lot of his reasoning. It's not disrespectful; it's a choice, and one I understand he has full agency to make.
No he doesn't. He refuses to wear a poppy because of the atrocities the British army committed against his family/friends. And to him, that army is what the poppy represents, which is understandable.
"But he's still happy to take the Queen's shilling!!!111!!"
So is, for instance, Sergio Aguero (Argentina and the Falklands - link here); so are lots of Republic players plying their trade in the English leagues... Like, what's your point? You may not agree with everything the government does, but we will all happily take a salary, right?
--------
Ultimately, I understand and in fact agree with a lot of his reasoning. It's not disrespectful; it's a choice, and one I understand he has full agency to make.
You know someone's wound up when they are typing exclamation marks so vigorously that they end up with a mixture of 1!1!!.
No he doesn't. He refuses to wear a poppy because of the atrocities the British army committed against his family/friends. And to him, that army is what the poppy represents, which is understandable.
"But he's still happy to take the Queen's shilling!!!111!!"
So is, for instance, Sergio Aguero (Argentina and the Falklands - link here); so are lots of Republic players plying their trade in the English leagues... Like, what's your point? You may not agree with everything the government does, but we will all happily take a salary, right?
--------
Ultimately, I understand and in fact agree with a lot of his reasoning. It's not disrespectful; it's a choice, and one I understand he has full agency to make.
You know someone's wound up when they are typing exclamation marks so vigarously that they end up with a mixture of 1!1!!.
No, it was sarcastic intent. The quotation marks and mixtures of !s and 1s was meant to indicate *other* people getting wound up.
No he doesn't. He refuses to wear a poppy because of the atrocities the British army committed against his family/friends. And to him, that army is what the poppy represents, which is understandable.
"But he's still happy to take the Queen's shilling!!!111!!"
So is, for instance, Sergio Aguero (Argentina and the Falklands - link here); so are lots of Republic players plying their trade in the English leagues... Like, what's your point? You may not agree with everything the government does, but we will all happily take a salary, right?
--------
Ultimately, I understand and in fact agree with a lot of his reasoning. It's not disrespectful; it's a choice, and one I understand he has full agency to make.
You know someone's wound up when they are typing exclamation marks so vigarously that they end up with a mixture of 1!1!!.
No, it was sarcastic intent. The quotation marks and mixtures of !s and 1s was meant to indicate *other* people getting wound up.
Not buying that. Sounds like something straight out of the Katrien Meire school of bullshit.
No he doesn't. He refuses to wear a poppy because of the atrocities the British army committed against his family/friends. And to him, that army is what the poppy represents, which is understandable.
"But he's still happy to take the Queen's shilling!!!111!!"
So is, for instance, Sergio Aguero (Argentina and the Falklands - link here); so are lots of Republic players plying their trade in the English leagues... Like, what's your point? You may not agree with everything the government does, but we will all happily take a salary, right?
--------
Ultimately, I understand and in fact agree with a lot of his reasoning. It's not disrespectful; it's a choice, and one I understand he has full agency to make.
You know someone's wound up when they are typing exclamation marks so vigarously that they end up with a mixture of 1!1!!.
No, it was sarcastic intent. The quotation marks and mixtures of !s and 1s was meant to indicate *other* people getting wound up.
Not buying that. Sounds like something straight out of the Katrien Meire school of bullshit.
How about reading my post again?
There's this concept called *context*, it might help you understand.
Reading the Jermain Defoe thread got me thinking, despite having both a controversial career on and off the pitch Jermain Defoe is rightly being given credit for his love and affection towards young Bradley. A 10 seconds google search lead me to all these articles of which some I knew about and others was a first like helping the pregnant English girl. Is James Mclean as bad as he is made out to be? If so, what would make this evil man do these good deeds?
Completely irrelevant. He may do some charitable work but he's still massively disrespected Great Britain and disrespected all those who have fought for this country and other counties that use the poppy as a mark of respect and rememberance to their fallen soliders.
The issue is that each year he will do the continue to do the same and his 'reasoning' doesn't wash with me one bit.
Whether or not I agree with his stance on the poppy, choosing not to wear it is not massively disrespecting Great Britain (or even the United Kingdom) and all those who have fought in all wars on its behalf, or for other countries that use a poppy for the purposes of commemoration.
I think he's a complete eejit, but McClean has made it clear that his objection arises in relation purely to circumstances relating to his place of birth.
His objection, rightly or wrongly, is to the expectation that he must wear a poppy, when that will be associated with support for those who served in Derry during the Troubles (a service that is not without at least some controversy). He has been clear that if it was worn in honour of those who had fought in the World Wars (and he probably would have little difficulty with Korea, the Falklands, etc.) he would have no problem, and I have no doubt that he has no concerns regarding Commonwealth or other military charities that also use the poppy.
Whether we like it or not, the wearing of the poppy is a political statement in Northern Ireland - there is almost no way that someone from an Irish nationalist background, such as McClean's, would wear one.
I quite happily donate money to the collections, but have never worn a poppy (but then, I do the same for all charitable collections, be they Oxfam, RNLI, etc.).
Unfortunately, this is where we are at in Northern Ireland. James is a bit of an arse, but no more so than most people who hold opinions so close to their heart that they become borderline irrational. I have seen both sides of the argument around Poppy wearing in Northern Ireland. I have, in the past , felt under immense pressure to wear the Poppy at work in a predominantly Unionist/Loyalist workforce, and have pointedly refused, as it was being abused as a political icon. This didnt exactly endear me with some, but it was a point of principle for me, and not about the original intention of the poppy itself.
James' problem is that he has been put into a position where he is being "volunteered" to wear something which he disagrees with, and has a national press ready and eager to jump on him for their own circulation benefit. When he tries to explain, most people are as irrational as him, and unwilling to listen to his perspective.
I am happy to remember those who served, including my father and grand father, during the two great wars. I chose to remember by wearing the RAFA badge to reflect my father involvement in WWII.
He seems the sort of person that can dish a bit of stick out, so no doubt he can take it as well.
For me, though, this raises a wider issue of "collective expectation", and is a bigger issue than James Mclean.
I wear a poppy as a personal expression of thanks to those that have been, and still are, defending us and our principles, but if someone chooses not to wear one, for whatever reason, that is their choice. I may not respect them, but it is their choice.
The situation is created because he is being expected to wear a poppy. Why is anyone being forced to express their sentiment (on this or any other "emotive" subject?). Since when did we have to have poppies sewn on shirts? Didn't we amply express our thoughts before by observing a minutes silence and contributing what we, as individuals, thought appropriate?
I will express solidarity / sympathy / compassion etc etc if and when I choose to do so, not because I am told I should. There are many other areas of forced expression and sentimentality that didn't exist 20 years ago and where expectation overrides the choice of the individual. This isn't a question of poppies, its about freedom of choice.
This may not sit well with all but we are creating the opportunity to express our collective outrage - its about time we reverted to individual choice.
BTW - I support Poppy day and any number of other causes..
So basically my point is spot on, it appears despite Defoe biting opponents, speeding whilst banned etc can be brushed aside but because James Mclean, refuses to wear a poppy on his shirt and face the British flag during the national anthem, his charitable work becomes "Irrelevant". If he hated the British that much then surely he would have checked the pregnant ladies passport for her nationality.
He doesn't have to wear a poppy on his own clothing, that's his right and I respect that 100% but the poppy is on the team shirt he wears, the shirt of the club that pays his wages. If he objected to the shirt manufacturers logo or the sponsor would he refuse to wear it?
I don't think James McClean hates Britain or the UK. I think he has a problem with the British establishment and in particular the British Military, which given his upbringing in the Bogside of Derry City, the site of Bloody Sunday in 1972 is fairly understandable.
As he has said in the past, if he was to wear a poppy it would be an insult to the people of his neighbourhood.
Interesting that many mention taking the British Pound/shilling. He actually earns his money from West Bromwich Albion, a private organisation. 30% of the population of Northern Ireland meanwhile work directly for the government. Many people in Derry are at this point directly employed as civil servants so clearly there is no issue for many working for UK Govt among those of Derry. Perhaps within certain neighbourhoods such as the Bogside this is different, though I travel to Derry regularly and have many friends there, quite a few of whom are civil servants. I don't think any are directly from the Bogside though.
Something I see a lot is the comment that soldiers fought and died for our rights to freedom. McClean has a right to express this by choosing not to wear a poppy. You don't have to like him (I think hes a twat, but a decent footballer) but you have to respect that. For what its worth, I would never wear a poppy, nor would anyone I know, but I have no problem with Britain and travel to London several times a year.
Last Friday was Daffodil day in Ireland (Irish Cancer Society), I didn't buy a Daffodil either. That was through laziness though rather than ideological.
The Poppy appeal shouldn't even exist though. I don't buy into this theory that soldiers are automatically heroes. Some are, some aren't. But if they are injured in the line of duty then the Army should be responsible for that, and treatement and support for these injuries should be built into the budget of the Army, it should not the responsibility of a charity to assist them.
Reading the Jermain Defoe thread got me thinking, despite having both a controversial career on and off the pitch Jermain Defoe is rightly being given credit for his love and affection towards young Bradley. A 10 seconds google search lead me to all these articles of which some I knew about and others was a first like helping the pregnant English girl. Is James Mclean as bad as he is made out to be? If so, what would make this evil man do these good deeds?
Completely irrelevant. He may do some charitable work but he's still massively disrespected Great Britain and disrespected all those who have fought for this country and other counties that use the poppy as a mark of respect and rememberance to their fallen soliders.
The issue is that each year he will do the continue to do the same and his 'reasoning' doesn't wash with me one
He does have the right, as a British citizen, to express his opinion. And to 'respect or disrespect' whatever or whoever he wants. There is a massive overreaction to him and what he says and does.
At no point have I questioned his right to express an opinion. But showing such disdain towards a nation and their fallen is completely disrespectful. Using his platform as a professional footballer to express that opinion on the one weekend of the year whereby football collectively pays respect however is irresponsible and inflammatory.
Do you think the Irish would put up with a similar situation on thier turf? No chance.
Whilst I lived in Ireland from 2007 until 2014 there was a change in Ireland from top to bottom about the poppy, Irish soldiers in WW1 and how to remember and respect them. The poppy was worn not just by Brits but Irish reclaiming a lost history. That's not to say that die hards wouldn't object but the change was palpable.
So basically my point is spot on, it appears despite Defoe biting opponents, speeding whilst banned etc can be brushed aside but because James Mclean, refuses to wear a poppy on his shirt and face the British flag during the national anthem, his charitable work becomes "Irrelevant". If he hated the British that much then surely he would have checked the pregnant ladies passport for her nationality.
Not sure what you are hoping to gain from this debate mate, but none of us are perfect, and the decision making of our emotions is not formed on a regimented yes / no grid. Gazza is a good example where people may have a strong view on say alcoholism, partner violence etc, yet soften the weight of their stance when it involves someone whose talents they admire, has likeability etc.
McClean takes a strong view on an emotive subject that is very close to a lot of people's hearts. Its entirely expected that it will generate a kickback from a lot of people.
No he doesn't. He refuses to wear a poppy because of the atrocities the British army committed against his family/friends. And to him, that army is what the poppy represents, which is understandable.
"But he's still happy to take the Queen's shilling!!!111!!"
So is, for instance, Sergio Aguero (Argentina and the Falklands - link here); so are lots of Republic players plying their trade in the English leagues... Like, what's your point? You may not agree with everything the government does, but we will all happily take a salary, right?
--------
Ultimately, I understand and in fact agree with a lot of his reasoning. It's not disrespectful; it's a choice, and one I understand he has full agency to make.
You know someone's wound up when they are typing exclamation marks so vigarously that they end up with a mixture of 1!1!!.
No, it was sarcastic intent. The quotation marks and mixtures of !s and 1s was meant to indicate *other* people getting wound up.
Whilst I lived in Ireland from 2007 until 2014 there was a change in Ireland from top to bottom about the poppy, Irish soldiers in WW1 and how to remember and respect them. The poppy was worn not just by Brits but Irish reclaiming a lost history. That's not to say that die hards wouldn't object but the change was palpable.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone wear the poppy in Ireland. I've lived here pretty much my entire life.
Comments
I think he's a complete eejit, but McClean has made it clear that his objection arises in relation purely to circumstances relating to his place of birth.
His objection, rightly or wrongly, is to the expectation that he must wear a poppy, when that will be associated with support for those who served in Derry during the Troubles (a service that is not without at least some controversy). He has been clear that if it was worn in honour of those who had fought in the World Wars (and he probably would have little difficulty with Korea, the Falklands, etc.) he would have no problem, and I have no doubt that he has no concerns regarding Commonwealth or other military charities that also use the poppy.
Whether we like it or not, the wearing of the poppy is a political statement in Northern Ireland - there is almost no way that someone from an Irish nationalist background, such as McClean's, would wear one.
I quite happily donate money to the collections, but have never worn a poppy (but then, I do the same for all charitable collections, be they Oxfam, RNLI, etc.).
however, I think he's disrespectful because as Me and you both know his actions go beyond just not wearing a poppy......
No he doesn't. He refuses to wear a poppy because of the atrocities the British army committed against his family/friends. And to him, that army is what the poppy represents, which is understandable.
"But he's still happy to take the Queen's shilling!!!111!!"
So is, for instance, Sergio Aguero (Argentina and the Falklands - link here); so are lots of Republic players plying their trade in the English leagues... Like, what's your point? You may not agree with everything the government does, but we will all happily take a salary, right?
--------
Ultimately, I understand and in fact agree with a lot of his reasoning. It's not disrespectful; it's a choice, and one I understand he has full agency to make.
Sounds like something straight out of the Katrien Meire school of bullshit.
There's this concept called *context*, it might help you understand.
James' problem is that he has been put into a position where he is being "volunteered" to wear something which he disagrees with, and has a national press ready and eager to jump on him for their own circulation benefit. When he tries to explain, most people are as irrational as him, and unwilling to listen to his perspective.
I am happy to remember those who served, including my father and grand father, during the two great wars. I chose to remember by wearing the RAFA badge to reflect my father involvement in WWII.
For me, though, this raises a wider issue of "collective expectation", and is a bigger issue than James Mclean.
I wear a poppy as a personal expression of thanks to those that have been, and still are, defending us and our principles, but if someone chooses not to wear one, for whatever reason, that is their choice. I may not respect them, but it is their choice.
The situation is created because he is being expected to wear a poppy. Why is anyone being forced to express their sentiment (on this or any other "emotive" subject?). Since when did we have to have poppies sewn on shirts? Didn't we amply express our thoughts before by observing a minutes silence and contributing what we, as individuals, thought appropriate?
I will express solidarity / sympathy / compassion etc etc if and when I choose to do so, not because I am told I should. There are many other areas of forced expression and sentimentality that didn't exist 20 years ago and where expectation overrides the choice of the individual. This isn't a question of poppies, its about freedom of choice.
This may not sit well with all but we are creating the opportunity to express our collective outrage - its about time we reverted to individual choice.
BTW - I support Poppy day and any number of other causes..
As he has said in the past, if he was to wear a poppy it would be an insult to the people of his neighbourhood.
Interesting that many mention taking the British Pound/shilling. He actually earns his money from West Bromwich Albion, a private organisation. 30% of the population of Northern Ireland meanwhile work directly for the government. Many people in Derry are at this point directly employed as civil servants so clearly there is no issue for many working for UK Govt among those of Derry. Perhaps within certain neighbourhoods such as the Bogside this is different, though I travel to Derry regularly and have many friends there, quite a few of whom are civil servants. I don't think any are directly from the Bogside though.
Something I see a lot is the comment that soldiers fought and died for our rights to freedom. McClean has a right to express this by choosing not to wear a poppy. You don't have to like him (I think hes a twat, but a decent footballer) but you have to respect that. For what its worth, I would never wear a poppy, nor would anyone I know, but I have no problem with Britain and travel to London several times a year.
Last Friday was Daffodil day in Ireland (Irish Cancer Society), I didn't buy a Daffodil either. That was through laziness though rather than ideological.
The Poppy appeal shouldn't even exist though. I don't buy into this theory that soldiers are automatically heroes. Some are, some aren't. But if they are injured in the line of duty then the Army should be responsible for that, and treatement and support for these injuries should be built into the budget of the Army, it should not the responsibility of a charity to assist them.
McClean takes a strong view on an emotive subject that is very close to a lot of people's hearts. Its entirely expected that it will generate a kickback from a lot of people.
Anyway, nice try, paddy, nice try.