[quote][cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]Manager is certainly on a countdown to being given the boot, another shambles like Saturday & he will be gone me thinks, however I think you have to wait until the manager loses the players, don't think we are there yet.[/quote]
It's for that reason that I went for the second option.
After saturday it must be clear to the players that parkinson is under pressure. If they don't up there game in an attempt to save him then he should go and give someone new the chance to size the team up before the transfer window.
[cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]We simply cannot get rid of Parky unless there is a better alternative. So putting a timeline on it is something I can't do. We need someone who will get us playing a different brand of football, like Poyet, Sean O'Driscoll, Nigel Adkins, Martinez, Howe, Clark etc. I'm not saying any of those are possible, just examples of the sort of manager we want to go for- someone who would come in and shake the foundations a bit. There's no point in getting someone in like Martin Allen who would do a lot of shouting but doesn't have any more tactical acumen than Parky as far as I'm concerned.
Agree about the type of manager. How do you work out who will offer that and be able to pull it off?
Remember Dowie talked about taking us up a level and playing good football. He was getting us passing goal kicks short. Playing attacking line ups. It wasn't enough though, he couldn't get it working how he imagined.
With the players we have I do think there's a decent mix between physical players and good footballers. We could play good football in this league but there's only a few managers out there who could properly pull it off while getting results. We don't need another Dowie or Pardew who says his teams play good football but can't get the team doing it.
I voted to give him until christmas, thats not because i think anything will change, just that it was the only option to mention money. The fact we have none means i cant see things changing unless Parky was to walk away, which he's not going to do. I think he's here for the season.
I agree with Alex. But if I were Parky, I'd want out now. No-one deserves the treatment he got after all the effort and hard work he has put in to try and halt this inexorable decline. It became a bad performance after Brighton scored their second - not only becuase of the manager and players, but because the crowd had no belief at all. I've seen us come back from two goals down time and again in the past - especially in the third division. But those days are long gone - now the crowd just gives up, and becomes vitriolic, and that undoubtedly rubs off on the players too.
He has had to work in difficult circumstances in terms of losing his best players and the business he does with little money impresses me. I do think that he is showing himself to be a cautious manager. To be fair- Curbs was that but I think at the moment it is to the detriment of the team. The problem for the team is that any of us wouldn't mind defending against our attack, we should be terrified. If you haven't got great skill, you need to bring in the elements that unsettle dfenders at this level - namely strength and pace.
We are trying to play a passing game when the players are not at the necessary skill level to achieve it. Teams that can't play that way in this league (most of them) play to the percentages and whilst I don't think we should go solely route 1, we do need to mix up our game to a drgree. I does pain me to say it but as it stands we play football against these teams and we can't dominate them. Brighton showed that they have the players to play that game and it is effective but our players can't string more than 5 passess together without miscontrolling or poor distribution.
Parky does have to take responsibility for this to some extent. On Saturday at 1-0 down it was clear something had to change. He waited for 2-0 and then made like for like changes. He needed to take some risks (extra body up front). It might not have worked, probably wouldn't have, but the changes he made definitely were not going to make any difference.
Having said that, I don't think we should sack him just yet. He needs to be given a chance to put it right with a lack of decent candidates out there. I'd give him till Christmas but he has to grow some attacking balls.
Although self nominating it is interesting that the poll is almost equally split between the three options.I voted for 3 , but could move to 2 for the reasons Incorruptable states if by Yeovil we have lost all the fixtures between now and then.
Also votes for 2 could be interpreted either way , so there is a clear majority for change if nothing improves quickly and that he should not be sacked this week.
I felt frustrated on hearing the result Saturday but believe that the end of this season would be the time for change if need be. If there is any spare money then let's give it to Parky to enhance the squad , another pay off would be stupid unless it becomes unavoidable which I accept it could do.
What concerns me so far is that we look much worse than last season and places we drew at ( Brentford , Exeter and Huddersfield ) we've lost and where we won ( Tranmere ) we drew. Wins against Carlisle, Peterborough and Wednesday could change this.
This thread is about what should happen, not what should have happened. Parky shouldn't have been appointed, because Pardew should have done better; or Reed should have started better; or Dowie should have made different signings; or Curbs shouldn't have walked; or... There's no point going over what should have happened.
A few years ago, my car was showing its age. The power steering wasn't as good as it should have been; the air conditioning had broken; and the headlamps kept blowing. But I couldn't afford to replace it. I had two choices: keep the car going until I could afford to replace it with something better, or get rid of it now, without a replacement, and walk the 65 miles to work every day. As I couldn't afford something better than the car I had, I kept it. It served me as well as possible until I was finally able to replace it with something better. If I had ditched the car immediately, I wouldn't have been able to get to work and I would never have been able to buy a better car.
I have only been supporting Charlton since the mid 1970s. So in the time I have been going to The Valley (or Selhurst or the Boleyn) I cannot remember a time when Charlton have ditched a manager and subsequently seen an improvemement. The reverse has happened through: in Lennie Lawrence and Alan Curbishley, Charlton have had two managers who have improved and seen Charlton promoted to the Premier League having been given the full support and encouragement of the Board and, vitally been given time.
We're bust. We can't afford to sack the manager and, if he walks, we can't afford a replacement. If we ditch the manager any time before the end of the next transfer window, we're going to lose players and we're not going to be able to replace them. With a change of manager, one thing is crystal clear: our team - and our club - wil rapdily get worse before showing any sign of improvement. We may be in trouble now, but it's a picnic compared to what it could be.
We're having an awful season. We may be in touch of the promotion push, but we're also dangerously close to the fourth tier. If we change manager before the end of the season, I am absolutely sure we'll end the season with the club's first relegation to the fourth division.
It's a risk to stick with a manager who is slowly - very slowly - building a side within Charlton's current financial restraictions. But it is nothing short of suicide to change manager in the middle of this, turbulent, financially-dangerous season.
For me it's a straight choice. Stick with Parky, control the budget and aim to get as close as possible to promotion. Or change managers now, pay the financial consequences and be the biggest club in next year's fourth division.
If Parky goes is his replacement getting money for new players?If yes Parky goes now.
If there's no money then let's be patient.Blood the youngsters with Damien Matthew as manager.Priority this year is not to get relegated.I cannot see this crop of players taking us up.
Saying this I like Parky.He has stabilised this club with a near zero budget.If the club put him on gardening leave and they cannot afford his wages I would offer with enough likeminded Charlton supporters to pool in to pay his wages.I am sure there are capable supporters who would organise something of this nature.I know this sounds a bit drastic but these are drastic times and I believe we might have to dig a bit deeper for the sake of our beloved club.
We have done it before.
[cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]I don't think any of the poll options sum up the opinion I have.
We simply cannot get rid of Parky unless there is a better alternative. So putting a timeline on it is something I can't do. We need someone who will get us playing a different brand of football, like Poyet, Sean O'Driscoll, Nigel Adkins, Martinez, Howe, Clark etc. I'm not saying any of those are possible, just examples of the sort of manager we want to go for- someone who would come in and shake the foundations a bit. There's no point in getting someone in like Martin Allen who would do a lot of shouting but doesn't have any more tactical acumen than Parky as far as I'm concerned.
I like Parky and have in general been fairly supportive and at Q&A's he comes accross well, plus he does seem to have the support of the players....they really need to put in a shift for him now to save his job, don't think he'll be sacked if we lose saturday, but Wednesday at home is key...another performance like the Brighton one and he won't have a leg to stand on.
In truth - no but i think it is possible. Carlisle will probably go 4-5-1 and we could get 3 points if we are lucky - expect to lose or draw though. At Home to Sheff Wed - think we will draw or lose - Swindon away - feels like a lose and Peterborough will be a lose if the prvious 3 are - could be a win if team is confident. Carlisle is a big game -probably as big as they come in the context of our season. What will Parky do that is different - what can he do?
Go now and take all and sundry on the coaching side with him. We need a completely new broom, oh and while we are at it, take Doherty, Jackson, Francis and Benson with the others....at least we seem to be consistent at one thing....seemingly turning good players into below average ones.
Time to go. However, only if a replacement with no CAFC connection has been lined up. Pointless in outting him and giving it to Breacker or Kinsella - they probably need to go as well.
Before Saturday I had been adamant all season that he should be given a reasonable chance, i.e. 20 games at least, to work with the entirely new team he had put together over the summer. I was prepared to make allowances for inconsistent start to the season and dodgy results against the likes of Dagenham & Redbridge.
Following Saturday's debacle, I have voted for change if there is no improvement after 2-3 games. What bothers me most is that every positive result or performance that one hopes is the start of a decent run of form ends up being followed by a bewilderingly poor performance - late winner against MK Dons followed by complete no-show at Brentford, excellent second half at Plymouth followed by embarrassing debacle against Brighton.
Really hope he turns it round - he's put a potentially very capable side together with minimal resources for which he deserves credit but needs to get them to perform. The various alternatives offered on here by other Lifers recently (Coleman, Blackwell, Wise(?!)) generally send a shiver down my spine.
Agree its about the future not the past. Look at the clubs that chop and change far too frequently. Better to have a man who bought the jigsaw pieces and has spent time laying them out than get a new man in who has to work from scratch. We are in the third division. Results performances change drastically in this division. I am happy Kinsella is there too = it gives me hope.
I still find myself unable to come up with an affordable, realistic alternative to Parkinson.
For that reason I've voted for the Christmas option. I hope he has the balls to shake up the midfield and drop a few of the so-called big names where necessary.
[cite]Posted By: Chizz [/cite]Curbs shouldn't have walked
point of order .... curbs didn't walk he wanted to do the last year of his contract, murray decided he knew best and didn't take up curbs' offer of seeing out the last year of his contract and help in the process of finding his replacement
[cite]Posted By: incorruptible addick[/cite]If we finish 20th, there will no doubt be some saying Parky should get a new contract for saving us from relegation!!!
Nigel,
I see something of an analogy with Kent in that both clubs have dire financial problems and exist on a shoestring for transfers.
Would you sack Paul Farbrace given that it could be argued he got Kent relegated or do you look at the woeful form of key (pun intended) batsmen who simply did not perform?
For Farbrace read Parkinson for Key and Denly read Semedo and Racon.
I'm reading some good posts here...sensible & logical ones on why he should be shown patience plus understandably passionate ones on why he should ousted now or after a couple more defeats.
I was as angry as the next Addick on Saturday.....still am if truth be known. The aura around The Valley felt exactly the same as it did against Barnsley in 2008/09 when the calls for Pardew's head became much more vocal. He was gone after the next home game (Sheff.Utd) I seem to recall.
I don't think Parky is as bad a manager as he is showing this season. I truly believe he cares about the club....I just don't think he's the right man. I know he has had a lot of problems during his tenure that were/are out of his control, but that's management I'm afraid - deal with it! And he has tried to.
The cold hard facts are that in his two years in charge, we have not progressed at all...in fact, we have gone backwards. The "brand" of football he has tried to implement either isn't working or is just plain ugly & ineffective.
Whilst our club craves stability, I fear there is yet more upheaval on the horizon. If the players fail to respond to Parky's post-Brighton comments at Carlisle this Saturday, then he surely must go as he will have lost the dressing room.
A name I would like to throw into the ring....Paolo Sousa. Got Swansea playing good attractive football, before failing at Leicester. However, as I type this I'm thinking he doesn't have a good track record with clubs that have/had off field problems (QPR & Leicester)!!!! He wouldn't cost anything, although I appreciate that ousting Parky & Breacker would and alas I have no solution/ideas for that!
We need a winner now - somebody who can achieve the best results in a short time with the resources available to them. That might mean somebdy who can adapt his tactics to the strengths and weaknesses of the players. It might also mean that we are not so pretty to watch unfortuantely but desperate times.....
[cite]Posted By: incorruptible addick[/cite]If we finish 20th, there will no doubt be some saying Parky should get a new contract for saving us from relegation!!!
Nigel,
I see something of an analogy with Kent in that both clubs have dire financial problems and exist on a shoestring for transfers.
Would you sack Paul Farbrace given that it could be argued he got Kent relegated or do you look at the woeful form of key (pun intended) batsmen who simply did not perform?
For Farbrace read Parkinson for Key and Denly read Semedo and Racon.
It is a very good analogy in many ways, Len.
The one big difference is that although Kent have just been relegated to div two of the championship, it was Farby's first season. Parky is now in his third season and we have continued to spiral ever downwards.
If Kent do not improve in div two next season when we're playing the likes of Derbys, Northants and Leics rather than Notts, Yorks and Somerset and if Denly and Key do not refind their form, there will certainly be calls for heads to roll, I suspect - in the same way that time is running out for Chris Adams at Surrey, who will surely be out of a job if they are as poor again next season as they have been in his first two years in charge.
The other difference is that Kent have now adopted a policy that over the next couple of years is going to see us relying incresasingly on young homegrown players like Coles and Blake and we will not be buying in the cricketing equivalents of Abbot and Benson. I think Farbrace has been quite excellent in the way he was worked with the young players who are going to be Kent's future.
My line about CAFC finishing 20th this season was a black joke. But actually, if we carry on as we are playing at the moment, I really can see us revising our expectations downwards to the point where we regard staying in div three as constituting a successful season!
Look at the results of the poll and it shows how hard RM's job is - regardless of decision he is going to get it in the neck from two-thirds of our support.
It's only recently I have been asking questions about Parky's management. I know Abbott/Benson won't work why doesn't he? It really puzzles me. Maybe becuause he has no other options? Anyinsah has come back from injury and Sodje is injured. I think he needs to make a bold change though for Saturday. I'd go - Elliot,
Francis, Dailly, Semedo
McCormack, Martin, Racon Anyinsah Jackson (Reid Injured) Wagstaff Benson Sodje
Would be worth a try - Jackson would spend more time crowding the midfield than rampaging down the left wing but would be instructed to deliver balls at evry opportunity. In fact I wouldn't want the wide men to be out and out wingers - I think we need to really get the numbers in the right offensive areas. Wagstaff can play behind the fron 2 but go left from time to time as play dictates. Something different which might leave us a bit exposed defensively but I think we need to fix ourselves offensively and a crowded midfiled could offset some of the issues.
[cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]Look at the results of the poll and it shows how hard RM's job is - regardless of decision he is going to get it in the neck from two-thirds of our support.
I agree RM has a tough call to make.
But I doubt the three groups in the poll are quite as far apart as you suggest.
Those saying he should go now aren't that impatient that they're going to storm the board room if he's given two or three more matches and then goes - although they might say 'told you so'. That outcome would leave 70 per cent more or less content.
And a lot of those saying 'give him until Xmas' will bring their timetable forward if in four or five matches time we have slipped further down the table, from 14th to 18th,, say....
Plus a number of those saying give him until Xmas (or even the whole season) have told us that they are saying so because they don't think we can afford to pay him off. If the results continue to go against us and come mid-Nov RM miraculously finds a bit of cash to make the change, I think quite a few of the 'no change' voters might be secretly relieved...
Comments
It's for that reason that I went for the second option.
After saturday it must be clear to the players that parkinson is under pressure. If they don't up there game in an attempt to save him then he should go and give someone new the chance to size the team up before the transfer window.
Remember Dowie talked about taking us up a level and playing good football. He was getting us passing goal kicks short. Playing attacking line ups. It wasn't enough though, he couldn't get it working how he imagined.
With the players we have I do think there's a decent mix between physical players and good footballers. We could play good football in this league but there's only a few managers out there who could properly pull it off while getting results. We don't need another Dowie or Pardew who says his teams play good football but can't get the team doing it.
How many times has it been proved at other clubs that a new management team can bring change in results from the off.
We are trying to play a passing game when the players are not at the necessary skill level to achieve it. Teams that can't play that way in this league (most of them) play to the percentages and whilst I don't think we should go solely route 1, we do need to mix up our game to a drgree. I does pain me to say it but as it stands we play football against these teams and we can't dominate them. Brighton showed that they have the players to play that game and it is effective but our players can't string more than 5 passess together without miscontrolling or poor distribution.
Parky does have to take responsibility for this to some extent. On Saturday at 1-0 down it was clear something had to change. He waited for 2-0 and then made like for like changes. He needed to take some risks (extra body up front). It might not have worked, probably wouldn't have, but the changes he made definitely were not going to make any difference.
Having said that, I don't think we should sack him just yet. He needs to be given a chance to put it right with a lack of decent candidates out there. I'd give him till Christmas but he has to grow some attacking balls.
Also votes for 2 could be interpreted either way , so there is a clear majority for change if nothing improves quickly and that he should not be sacked this week.
I felt frustrated on hearing the result Saturday but believe that the end of this season would be the time for change if need be. If there is any spare money then let's give it to Parky to enhance the squad , another pay off would be stupid unless it becomes unavoidable which I accept it could do.
What concerns me so far is that we look much worse than last season and places we drew at ( Brentford , Exeter and Huddersfield ) we've lost and where we won ( Tranmere ) we drew. Wins against Carlisle, Peterborough and Wednesday could change this.
A few years ago, my car was showing its age. The power steering wasn't as good as it should have been; the air conditioning had broken; and the headlamps kept blowing. But I couldn't afford to replace it. I had two choices: keep the car going until I could afford to replace it with something better, or get rid of it now, without a replacement, and walk the 65 miles to work every day. As I couldn't afford something better than the car I had, I kept it. It served me as well as possible until I was finally able to replace it with something better. If I had ditched the car immediately, I wouldn't have been able to get to work and I would never have been able to buy a better car.
I have only been supporting Charlton since the mid 1970s. So in the time I have been going to The Valley (or Selhurst or the Boleyn) I cannot remember a time when Charlton have ditched a manager and subsequently seen an improvemement. The reverse has happened through: in Lennie Lawrence and Alan Curbishley, Charlton have had two managers who have improved and seen Charlton promoted to the Premier League having been given the full support and encouragement of the Board and, vitally been given time.
We're bust. We can't afford to sack the manager and, if he walks, we can't afford a replacement. If we ditch the manager any time before the end of the next transfer window, we're going to lose players and we're not going to be able to replace them. With a change of manager, one thing is crystal clear: our team - and our club - wil rapdily get worse before showing any sign of improvement. We may be in trouble now, but it's a picnic compared to what it could be.
We're having an awful season. We may be in touch of the promotion push, but we're also dangerously close to the fourth tier. If we change manager before the end of the season, I am absolutely sure we'll end the season with the club's first relegation to the fourth division.
It's a risk to stick with a manager who is slowly - very slowly - building a side within Charlton's current financial restraictions. But it is nothing short of suicide to change manager in the middle of this, turbulent, financially-dangerous season.
For me it's a straight choice. Stick with Parky, control the budget and aim to get as close as possible to promotion. Or change managers now, pay the financial consequences and be the biggest club in next year's fourth division.
If there's no money then let's be patient.Blood the youngsters with Damien Matthew as manager.Priority this year is not to get relegated.I cannot see this crop of players taking us up.
Saying this I like Parky.He has stabilised this club with a near zero budget.If the club put him on gardening leave and they cannot afford his wages I would offer with enough likeminded Charlton supporters to pool in to pay his wages.I am sure there are capable supporters who would organise something of this nature.I know this sounds a bit drastic but these are drastic times and I believe we might have to dig a bit deeper for the sake of our beloved club.
We have done it before.
I agree with dabos.
Carlisle away
Sheff Weds home
Swindon away
Peterborough away
Does anyone honestly think he's going to turn it around?
Following Saturday's debacle, I have voted for change if there is no improvement after 2-3 games. What bothers me most is that every positive result or performance that one hopes is the start of a decent run of form ends up being followed by a bewilderingly poor performance - late winner against MK Dons followed by complete no-show at Brentford, excellent second half at Plymouth followed by embarrassing debacle against Brighton.
Really hope he turns it round - he's put a potentially very capable side together with minimal resources for which he deserves credit but needs to get them to perform. The various alternatives offered on here by other Lifers recently (Coleman, Blackwell, Wise(?!)) generally send a shiver down my spine.
Look at the clubs that chop and change far too frequently.
Better to have a man who bought the jigsaw pieces and has spent time laying them out than get a new man in who has to work from scratch.
We are in the third division. Results performances change drastically in this division.
I am happy Kinsella is there too = it gives me hope.
For that reason I've voted for the Christmas option. I hope he has the balls to shake up the midfield and drop a few of the so-called big names where necessary.
point of order .... curbs didn't walk he wanted to do the last year of his contract, murray decided he knew best and didn't take up curbs' offer of seeing out the last year of his contract and help in the process of finding his replacement
Nigel,
I see something of an analogy with Kent in that both clubs have dire financial problems and exist on a shoestring for transfers.
Would you sack Paul Farbrace given that it could be argued he got Kent relegated or do you look at the woeful form of key (pun intended) batsmen who simply did not perform?
For Farbrace read Parkinson for Key and Denly read Semedo and Racon.
I was as angry as the next Addick on Saturday.....still am if truth be known. The aura around The Valley felt exactly the same as it did against Barnsley in 2008/09 when the calls for Pardew's head became much more vocal. He was gone after the next home game (Sheff.Utd) I seem to recall.
I don't think Parky is as bad a manager as he is showing this season. I truly believe he cares about the club....I just don't think he's the right man. I know he has had a lot of problems during his tenure that were/are out of his control, but that's management I'm afraid - deal with it! And he has tried to.
The cold hard facts are that in his two years in charge, we have not progressed at all...in fact, we have gone backwards. The "brand" of football he has tried to implement either isn't working or is just plain ugly & ineffective.
Whilst our club craves stability, I fear there is yet more upheaval on the horizon. If the players fail to respond to Parky's post-Brighton comments at Carlisle this Saturday, then he surely must go as he will have lost the dressing room.
A name I would like to throw into the ring....Paolo Sousa. Got Swansea playing good attractive football, before failing at Leicester. However, as I type this I'm thinking he doesn't have a good track record with clubs that have/had off field problems (QPR & Leicester)!!!! He wouldn't cost anything, although I appreciate that ousting Parky & Breacker would and alas I have no solution/ideas for that!
It is a very good analogy in many ways, Len.
The one big difference is that although Kent have just been relegated to div two of the championship, it was Farby's first season. Parky is now in his third season and we have continued to spiral ever downwards.
If Kent do not improve in div two next season when we're playing the likes of Derbys, Northants and Leics rather than Notts, Yorks and Somerset and if Denly and Key do not refind their form, there will certainly be calls for heads to roll, I suspect - in the same way that time is running out for Chris Adams at Surrey, who will surely be out of a job if they are as poor again next season as they have been in his first two years in charge.
The other difference is that Kent have now adopted a policy that over the next couple of years is going to see us relying incresasingly on young homegrown players like Coles and Blake and we will not be buying in the cricketing equivalents of Abbot and Benson. I think Farbrace has been quite excellent in the way he was worked with the young players who are going to be Kent's future.
My line about CAFC finishing 20th this season was a black joke. But actually, if we carry on as we are playing at the moment, I really can see us revising our expectations downwards to the point where we regard staying in div three as constituting a successful season!
Elliot,
Francis, Dailly, Semedo
McCormack, Martin, Racon
Anyinsah Jackson (Reid Injured)
Wagstaff
Benson Sodje
Would be worth a try - Jackson would spend more time crowding the midfield than rampaging down the left wing but would be instructed to deliver balls at evry opportunity. In fact I wouldn't want the wide men to be out and out wingers - I think we need to really get the numbers in the right offensive areas. Wagstaff can play behind the fron 2 but go left from time to time as play dictates. Something different which might leave us a bit exposed defensively but I think we need to fix ourselves offensively and a crowded midfiled could offset some of the issues.
I agree RM has a tough call to make.
But I doubt the three groups in the poll are quite as far apart as you suggest.
Those saying he should go now aren't that impatient that they're going to storm the board room if he's given two or three more matches and then goes - although they might say 'told you so'. That outcome would leave 70 per cent more or less content.
And a lot of those saying 'give him until Xmas' will bring their timetable forward if in four or five matches time we have slipped further down the table, from 14th to 18th,, say....
Plus a number of those saying give him until Xmas (or even the whole season) have told us that they are saying so because they don't think we can afford to pay him off. If the results continue to go against us and come mid-Nov RM miraculously finds a bit of cash to make the change, I think quite a few of the 'no change' voters might be secretly relieved...