I didnt think old cafc share were worth anything once the board/shareholders were booted out last year and became VIPs only the friendly debt/creditors/directors retained ownership by some kind of conversion - which mean the reality of the situation was realised i.e. the club was owned by the friendly creditors as the debt far exceeded the value of the club. Of course the new board at the time must have received something to indicate their level of ownership I suppose
[quote][cite]Posted By: golfaddick[/cite]I read it that Avesco had loaned the money to RM - in return he has put up his shares as collateral..............am I wrong ?[/quote]
I don't think Avesco is making any loan. RM is raising a loan from someone (bank or friendly party) who wants collateral for the loan. The Avesco shares that he owns, since they are due a chunk of cash from the Celador judgment, should be reasonably good collateral. The purpose of the loan? Would seem a strange co-incidence if it wasn't connected to the CAFC purchase.
Glad someone like Murray has full control. Not only he is a good business man but, also a loyal fan.
He is too good a business man to just to throw in his last chips hoping he can make the club more attractive to potential buyers before his cash runs out.
[cite]Posted By: golfaddick[/cite]I read it that Avesco had loaned the money to RM - in return he has put up his shares as collateral..............am I wrong ?
I don't think Avesco is making any loan. RM is raising a loan from someone (bank or friendly party) who wants collateral for the loan. The Avesco shares that he owns, since they are due a chunk of cash from the Celador judgment, should be reasonably good collateral. The purpose of the loan? Would seem a strange co-incidence if it wasn't connected to the CAFC purchase.
uhmm. Isn't it Avesco who are raising a loan from someone and RM has put up his shares as collateral. It doesn't say RM is raising a loan but Avesco. Avesco and RM are two different things entirely. If Avesco is raising the loan then he would have to borrow the money from Avesco. Why not just go to his own personal bankers and raise the loan the same way but independent of Avesco. And Avesco are not due anything from the Celador judgement are they ? RM had a share of Celador not Avesco.
Let me get this straight. RM has raised a loan to complete a MBO and become sole owner of CAFC using his shares in Avesco as collateral ? Bearing in the precarious financial position the football club finds itself then I conclude Richard has either lost his marbles or has definitely got new investment lined up ? Or am I not getting something ?
I'm beginning to regret mentioning a loan from Avesco now
The main point I was trying to make was that the settlement over the rights of ‘Who Wants to be a Millionaire’ with Disney probably meant that Murray now had the money to reject an approach from Sainsbury - or pick up the pieces after the collapse of a bid from Sainsbury - and offer the other directors the same or better buyout terms than Sainsbury had offered - & so Murray’s buyout is probably not part of some deal with Sainsbury but is more likely a reaction to it.
[cite]Posted By: micks1950[/cite]about the same time that Murray came into extra money from the settlement over the rights of ‘Who Wants to be a Millionaire’ with Disney – which increased the value of his shares in Avesco & allowed him to borrow against their value.
excellent post. However the settlement with Disney would not have increased the value of his shares in Avesco because it wasn't Avesco who owned the rights to WWTBAM it was Celador, a company that RM previously had a stake in which sold the rights to Millionaire a few years ago to Endemol. Avesco is RM's company. What the loan is for is anyone's guess but the loan would be to Avesco as opposed to RM himself I would have thought.
I think the actual situation was that Avesco had a share of the WWTBM rights - either alongside Celador or they were investors in Celador. I've always understood that RM is a shareholder in Avesco, but not in Celador. Remember reading about it ages ago.
And my understanding from the Avesco announcement is that RM is borrowing money from Avesco against the value of his shares in the company, but i might be wrong as I don't really know how these things work!
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]
uhmm. Isn't it Avesco who are raising a loan from someone and RM has put up his shares as collateral.It doesn't say RM is raising a loan but Avesco.
Don’t think so LA. The Company Announcement says "Richard Murray, the non-executive deputy Chairman, has pledged 3,880,492 ordinary shares in the Company as collateral for a loan entered into today". To me that means that RM has borrowed the money. If Avesco were to raise a loan there would be no value to a lender having collateral of Avesco shares pledged to it since shareholders rank lower than lenders in the event of a winding-up. If Avesco couldn’t repay the lender he wouldn’t get much protection from owning Avesco shares.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite] Avesco and RM are two different things entirely. If Avesco is raising the loan then he would have to borrow the money from Avesco.
Indeed, though RM founded Avesco and remains a 19.2% shareholder in Avesco
Avesco is neither raising nor making the loan. It has nothing to do with the loan. The only matter affecting Avesco is that RM is pledging a chunk of his shares in Avesco as collateral for a loan he is raising from person(s) unspecified. Avesco is obliged by law to announce this, given his position as a board member of Avesco (non-exec deputy Chairman).
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite] Why not just go to his own personal bankers and raise the loan the same way but independent of Avesco. And Avesco are not due anything from the Celador judgement are they? RM had a share of Celador not Avesco
He may well be raising the loan from his own bank or it could be from another party. Either way, they want collateral. Nothing unusual in that. It is worth his while to pledge the collateral as the interest rate the lender will charge him will be much lower on a secured loan as opposed to an unsecured one and by virtue of the Celador judgement there is a chunk of cash heading to Avesco shareholders.
QUOTE
Avesco.......revealed it is in line for a £32m payment following the [Celador] victory. Avesco retained a stake in Celador after it was demerged from the rest of the company in 2003.
Avesco's management has said it has no other plans but to distribute the cash windfall to its shareholders.
UNQUOTE
Daily Mail 8 July 2010
Apart from that, I agree with everything you say LA ;o)
If the Millionaire money is backdated after lengthy legal procedures, then RM may well be entitled to a slice even if the Millionaire franchise is now in different hands.
RM is not the "sole owner" of CAFC he is by far the major share holder as he now owns more than 39% (i think the threshold is set) he could take over and buy all us other shareholders out. He dosnt have to and it would be pointless anyway as his share holding dwarfs the rest of us. The EGM will just rubber stamp the Boards choice to sell up to RM.
The intresting thing which dosnt seem to be picked up is his statement of selecting an "Interin board" which suggests that something else is coming along i.e not INTERIM !
[cite]Posted By: Off_it[/cite]This has turned into an absolutely hilarious thread, as everyone launches their own theory and disappears up their own wotsit trying to justify it.
the 2nd most sensible post other than micks first post.
everything else is all poor guess work..
i reckon that soon enough it will all become clear and hopefully by then we will have the players in that we want and all this can carry on in the background..
[quote][cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]The intresting thing which dosnt seem to be picked up is his statement of selecting an "Interin board" which suggests that something else is coming along i.e not INTERIM ![/quote]
I think the interim is the period between now and the EGM, once this has approved the purchase he can appoint a permanent board.
Off It, I'm normally fully with you in your its hilarious seeing people try and add 2 + 2 and get 13 camp, but there is a hell of a lot in all this that simply just doesn't make any clear sense.
Namely why, Richard Murray, who on paper has lost millions through investing in Charlton and has made it publicly clear on numerous occassions that he has financially invested all he can, and emotionally has been looking to pass the baton on to others for at leat two years now, is now putting up some of his only other decent investment holdings up as collateral so he can link himself into charlton even further, at a point where we as a club are at our weakest financial position.
As I said, it doesn't really make sense unless there is another backer already in sync with him (not sainsbury) or there is a guarantee of someone else coming in to take over in the near future.
A hell of a lot of mystique surrounding this, though I might be reading it completely wrong
If the MBO is agreed in early August, it will make any decisions about the sale of the club or outside investment fairly straightforward. This is the obvious benefit to where we were previously when so many others had to be involved in the negotiations. Any sale would still depend on how much of the debt any potential investor would be prepared to settle and what RM would be prepared to give up in exchange. I can't see that it improves the finances in anyway unless RM is pumping some more cash in (seems v unlikely) or that illusive "investor" is able to negotiate an acceptable deal with RM (when those that were previously involved agree the MBO) and then put some of their own cash into the club (not guaranteed of course). So the unease remains until something gives IMHO
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Off It, I'm normally fully with you in your its hilarious seeing people try and add 2 + 2 and get 13 camp, but there is a hell of a lot in all this that simply just doesn't make any clear sense.
Namely why, Richard Murray, who on paper has lost millions through investing in Charlton and has made it publicly clear on numerous occassions that he has financially invested all he can, and emotionally has been looking to pass the baton on to others for at leat two years now, is now putting up some of his only other decent investment holdings up as collateral so he can link himself into charlton even further, at a point where we as a club are at our weakest financial position.
As I said, it doesn't really make sense unless there is another backer already in sync with him (not sainsbury) or there is a guarantee of someone else coming in to take over in the near future.
A hell of a lot of mystique surrounding this, though I might be reading it completely wrong
Good question AFKA.
Maybe part of it is that, as others have commented, once you've got rid of the bulk of the debt, or at least reduced the number of significant debt providers to just RM maybe plus a co-backer if there is one (we don't yet know how the purchase of CAFC and CA Holdings is to be financed, though the c£2m? loan that RM seems to have raised from someone secured against some of his Avesco shares may be a smallish part of it - and we may or may not get to know much about it very easily since the purchaser will presumably be a private entity [BTW once CA PLC is gone we'd better get used to not having the level of info about the club we've poured over for so many years]) it would make negotiating a future sale of the club a lot easier. But it's difficult to imagine RM selling on to another 100% owner in the near future. Doesn’t really stack up.
Maybe it’s that, since CAFC would be coming back from a low base, the financial upside is pretty big. Maybe RM fancies he can put the elements together to repeat the feat he performed with Curbs and many others not so long ago. If he got anywhere close to that there’d certainly be a handsome return on the exercise, not to mention the immense personal pride which RM would justifiably feel if he restored the club’s fortunes. The downside, as we know, is that for as long as he doesn't, he'll have to keep writing cheques to keep the dream alive (or find others to help him again) but at least he'll be making the decisions more or less alone and without having to get a consensus of a number of others.
Interesting little comment in the Guardian today. Nothing that we don't already know other than the point that Murray and Sainsbury have never spoken. But, how could they possibly know that? Unless they asked one of them I soppose. It lends weight to the view that RM's actions might be defensive moves against Sainsbury.
We had just read that article and ''Digger' is usually quite good, so I assume that he has spoken to one of them. Certainly looks as though RM has tried to head off a bid. Is it possible that some directors wanted to sell and RM didn't trust the Sainsbury guy? Odd.
We know that Murray came into a bit of money (via the ‘Who Wants to be a Millionaire’/Disney/Avesco – explained by PeanutsMolloy) yet he has chosen to spend the bulk of it on buying out the other directors/bond holders with a limited amount going to Parky to bring in some players.
As all the other directors are also supposed to be Charlton fans holding ‘friendly’ debt it seems probable that he would only be spending most of his money on buying them out (rather than re-building the team) if they wanted to accept an offer from someone else (Sainsbury?) and he didn’t (or alternatively he wanted to sell and they didn't?).
Either way, I would have thought that he must also be fairly confident that the simplified ownership structure and reduced debt will allow him to either sell or attract new investors pretty quickly?
What happened to the shares when the last restructure last year happened and the 'magnificent 7' became the new/only Board members, while others were jettisoned and became VIPs? (am confused)
I still see it as they are still actively looking to sell the Club nothing more nothing less. After all they have hired someone who does just that............
I shall be appointing a new interim board of directors, and we will now go forward and actively seek new investment. "To assist with this, I am appointing Tim Fisher, of Calimere Point, to work with me on devising an investment strategy for the club.
Comments
Hoped for
I don't think Avesco is making any loan. RM is raising a loan from someone (bank or friendly party) who wants collateral for the loan. The Avesco shares that he owns, since they are due a chunk of cash from the Celador judgment, should be reasonably good collateral. The purpose of the loan? Would seem a strange co-incidence if it wasn't connected to the CAFC purchase.
He is too good a business man to just to throw in his last chips hoping he can make the club more attractive to potential buyers before his cash runs out.
uhmm. Isn't it Avesco who are raising a loan from someone and RM has put up his shares as collateral. It doesn't say RM is raising a loan but Avesco. Avesco and RM are two different things entirely. If Avesco is raising the loan then he would have to borrow the money from Avesco. Why not just go to his own personal bankers and raise the loan the same way but independent of Avesco. And Avesco are not due anything from the Celador judgement are they ? RM had a share of Celador not Avesco.
but i still think you lot are reading too much into this
The main point I was trying to make was that the settlement over the rights of ‘Who Wants to be a Millionaire’ with Disney probably meant that Murray now had the money to reject an approach from Sainsbury - or pick up the pieces after the collapse of a bid from Sainsbury - and offer the other directors the same or better buyout terms than Sainsbury had offered - & so Murray’s buyout is probably not part of some deal with Sainsbury but is more likely a reaction to it.
I think the actual situation was that Avesco had a share of the WWTBM rights - either alongside Celador or they were investors in Celador. I've always understood that RM is a shareholder in Avesco, but not in Celador. Remember reading about it ages ago.
And my understanding from the Avesco announcement is that RM is borrowing money from Avesco against the value of his shares in the company, but i might be wrong as I don't really know how these things work!
Don’t think so LA. The Company Announcement says "Richard Murray, the non-executive deputy Chairman, has pledged 3,880,492 ordinary shares in the Company as collateral for a loan entered into today". To me that means that RM has borrowed the money. If Avesco were to raise a loan there would be no value to a lender having collateral of Avesco shares pledged to it since shareholders rank lower than lenders in the event of a winding-up. If Avesco couldn’t repay the lender he wouldn’t get much protection from owning Avesco shares.
Indeed, though RM founded Avesco and remains a 19.2% shareholder in Avesco
Avesco is neither raising nor making the loan. It has nothing to do with the loan. The only matter affecting Avesco is that RM is pledging a chunk of his shares in Avesco as collateral for a loan he is raising from person(s) unspecified. Avesco is obliged by law to announce this, given his position as a board member of Avesco (non-exec deputy Chairman).
He may well be raising the loan from his own bank or it could be from another party. Either way, they want collateral. Nothing unusual in that. It is worth his while to pledge the collateral as the interest rate the lender will charge him will be much lower on a secured loan as opposed to an unsecured one and by virtue of the Celador judgement there is a chunk of cash heading to Avesco shareholders.
QUOTE
Avesco.......revealed it is in line for a £32m payment following the [Celador] victory. Avesco retained a stake in Celador after it was demerged from the rest of the company in 2003.
Avesco's management has said it has no other plans but to distribute the cash windfall to its shareholders.
UNQUOTE
Daily Mail 8 July 2010
Apart from that, I agree with everything you say LA ;o)
:-)
3rd team for shelvey, hamster,addick, now a scouse
u look like you need some sun cream bud
The intresting thing which dosnt seem to be picked up is his statement of selecting an "Interin board" which suggests that something else is coming along i.e not INTERIM !
the 2nd most sensible post other than micks first post.
everything else is all poor guess work..
i reckon that soon enough it will all become clear and hopefully by then we will have the players in that we want and all this can carry on in the background..
I think the interim is the period between now and the EGM, once this has approved the purchase he can appoint a permanent board.
Namely why, Richard Murray, who on paper has lost millions through investing in Charlton and has made it publicly clear on numerous occassions that he has financially invested all he can, and emotionally has been looking to pass the baton on to others for at leat two years now, is now putting up some of his only other decent investment holdings up as collateral so he can link himself into charlton even further, at a point where we as a club are at our weakest financial position.
As I said, it doesn't really make sense unless there is another backer already in sync with him (not sainsbury) or there is a guarantee of someone else coming in to take over in the near future.
A hell of a lot of mystique surrounding this, though I might be reading it completely wrong
Good question AFKA.
Maybe part of it is that, as others have commented, once you've got rid of the bulk of the debt, or at least reduced the number of significant debt providers to just RM maybe plus a co-backer if there is one (we don't yet know how the purchase of CAFC and CA Holdings is to be financed, though the c£2m? loan that RM seems to have raised from someone secured against some of his Avesco shares may be a smallish part of it - and we may or may not get to know much about it very easily since the purchaser will presumably be a private entity [BTW once CA PLC is gone we'd better get used to not having the level of info about the club we've poured over for so many years]) it would make negotiating a future sale of the club a lot easier. But it's difficult to imagine RM selling on to another 100% owner in the near future. Doesn’t really stack up.
Maybe it’s that, since CAFC would be coming back from a low base, the financial upside is pretty big. Maybe RM fancies he can put the elements together to repeat the feat he performed with Curbs and many others not so long ago. If he got anywhere close to that there’d certainly be a handsome return on the exercise, not to mention the immense personal pride which RM would justifiably feel if he restored the club’s fortunes. The downside, as we know, is that for as long as he doesn't, he'll have to keep writing cheques to keep the dream alive (or find others to help him again) but at least he'll be making the decisions more or less alone and without having to get a consensus of a number of others.
Lot's of questions, no answers. The internet was born for this sort of thing - that and porn, of course.
Guardian Link
As all the other directors are also supposed to be Charlton fans holding ‘friendly’ debt it seems probable that he would only be spending most of his money on buying them out (rather than re-building the team) if they wanted to accept an offer from someone else (Sainsbury?) and he didn’t (or alternatively he wanted to sell and they didn't?).
Either way, I would have thought that he must also be fairly confident that the simplified ownership structure and reduced debt will allow him to either sell or attract new investors pretty quickly?
What happened to the shares when the last restructure last year happened and the 'magnificent 7' became the new/only Board members, while others were jettisoned and became VIPs? (am confused)
I still own a single share, is it still valid?
So if Mr Murray and Mr Sainsbury haven't spoken to each other, Murray could come into a lot more money by suing Sainsbury ? ;)
I shall be appointing a new interim board of directors, and we will now go forward and actively seek new investment. "To assist with this, I am appointing Tim Fisher, of Calimere Point, to work with me on devising an investment strategy for the club.