[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]I still see it as they are still actively looking to sell the Club nothing more nothing less. After all they have hired someone who does just that.............
They do more than just help clubs who are actively looking to sell ...................
Calimere Point Sports is an advisory firm focused on providing high quality financial and commercial advice to the global sports sector. Services include:
■Financial planning and modeling
■Equity and debt raising
■Debt restructuring advice and negotiation
■Pre-acquisition and post-acquisition due diligence for buyers of sports franchises
■Divestiture advisory
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]I still see it as they are still actively looking to sell the Club nothing more nothing less. After all they have hired someone who does just that.............
They do more than just help clubs who are actively looking to sell ...................
Calimere Point Sports is an advisory firm focused on providing high quality financial and commercial advice to the global sports sector. Services include:
■Financial planning and modeling
■Equity and debt raising
■Debt restructuring advice and negotiation
■Pre-acquisition and post-acquisition due diligence for buyers of sports franchises
■Divestiture advisory
Actually I would have said all those points are geared towards that one aim.
Hmm........8 days and counting since the announcement and no sign of a circular to shareholders, among other things calling the EGM to ratify the deal.
What do you reckon? Can't afford the stamps?
Murray never had the clout, not even in the Premier league to maintain our status, we were always told we couldn't afford a type of player, even back then. Our glory days, they had limits of course... He told us recently the budget would match our present level… It is. More money coming in sales than going out for purchases.. He told us recently he had no more to put in, and would even walk way with a financial loss..
He would obviously move aside for a takeover, as the Zabeel approach proved, yet so many are happy he’s now in sole charge?
IMHO I still feel we’re a club in limbo until real investment or a takeover comes our way…
I think its more the case that people are happy to finally see some movement and something that might make a buyout more likely in the future.
On a separate and related note, how come Palace have just spent a couple of hundred thou on a player from ipswich, when they have only just come out of admin. Something wrong there, if they have this money, surely it should have gone to creditors. Not only that but they will be outspending other clubs who did not go into admin but instead have had to cut their cloth accordingly.
Something's just occurred to me. I know that debt has been restructured in conjunction with the former directors. Up until now though the debt has been friendly. If it's now been reduced and the debtors are now external to the company it's potentially no longer friendly. If there was any kind of fall out with the former directors or if they were to sell that debt or factor it to a less sympathetic party, might this represent a potential threat to us.
The Palace situation came out of a very small slice of their debt being called in...
[cite]Posted By: Mortimerician[/cite]Something's just occurred to me. I know that debt has been restructured in conjunction with the former directors. Up until now though the debt has been friendly. If it's now been reduced and the debtors are now external to the company it's potentially no longer friendly. If there was any kind of fall out with the former directors or if they were to sell that debt or factor it to a less sympathetic party, might this represent a potential threat to us.
The Palace situation came out of a very small slice of their debt being called in...
sorry but how is our debt now external. All the debt is to RM. The previous directors have no debt to the Club. He may have borrowed some money but he has put his Avesco shares up as collateral against that so doesn't affect the Club.
Oh, I thought that a number of directors had made loans to the club. If you're right Large, then there's no change. Confusing that they chose to mention re-structuring the debt at the same time, then, as the two things would be completely unrelated.
[cite]Posted By: Mortimerician[/cite]Oh, I thought that a number of directors had made loans to the club. If you're right Large, then there's no change. Confusing that they chose to mention re-structuring the debt at the same time, then, as the two things would be completely unrelated.
it was restructuring in the sense that if a Director was owed say 3m he agreed to reduce that to 2m and was paid off. However I think amounts written off would have been more substantial than that. All the debt is to RM and RM only.
[cite]Posted By: Thommo[/cite]In terms of external debt, is it just the overdraft/loan on the north stand development or is that all cleared now?
that still remains although I don't know how much is owed at the moment.
I think we don't actually know yet how Richard Murray's buy out is being financed and structured.
It seems he was able to borrow money using his Avesco shares (which seem to have increased in value due to the 'Who wants to be a Millionaire' settlement [which Disney may be appealing?]).
It also seems that the other Directors/bond holders were willing to 'write down' the value of the debt owed to them as part of Murray's buyout. However, I think someone else has suggested that Murray was able to borrow something like £2-3 million based on his Avesco shares(?). If this is correct was it enough to buyout the others (which I think would be a pretty hefty 'writedown' by them) & give Parky a small amount for transfers (& keep the club going next season?) - or will money still be owed to these ex-Directors after the buyout (& so be 'external') - or has Murray got a pretty certain 'short term' sale or new investment lined up? (in which case why go through the elaborate procedure of the 'buyout'/EGM etc?).
No doubt some of this will come out at the (yet to be announced) EGM?
My interpretation is that all the debt to the former directors is still in place. Maybe some hefty repayments were due on those loans or some of the directors needed the loans repaid immediately and rather than take money out of the club to repay those loans (or inject more of his own money into the club solely to repay those loans) RM offered to buy the shares of those directors at a good price (and was obliged to make the same offer to the other Directors) in return for restructuring the loan terms and timeframe of the repayments. I don’t think this would have cost RM much more than £4 or £5 million. To buy the shares and repay all the loans to the directors would have cost in the region of £25 to £30 million or all the Directors agreeing to write off several million each. Doing this satisfies the short term need for cash that some of the Directors may have had (by realising an above market value for their shares) and eases the debt burden on the club by no longer having to meet imminent repayments.
In his statement he stated ‘...and financially this was potentially one of our darkest hours’. He did not refer to ‘darkest period’ or ‘darkest times’. ‘Darkest hours’ suggest to me some very specific event (such as having to make a large debt repayment it could not afford or a takeover offer from someone that RM did not think would be good for the club but was attractive to a few Directors because of their need for short term cash?) that occurred in the last few weeks that had to be dealt with in order to ensure the survival of the club.
As I said it is my interpretation. But, if in assuming control he had wiped out the £30 million or so debt that everyone knows the club has he would have stated this clearly rather than stating "I am very grateful to Derek Chappell, Sir Maurice Hatter, David Hughes, David Sumners, Steven Ward, David White and Bob Whitehand that, together with me, they have agreed to restructure and reduce the company debt, which in itself should make the club highly attractive to potential investors.’
[cite]Posted By: Red_in_SE8[/cite]My interpretation is that all the debt to the former directors is still in place. Maybe some hefty repayments were due on those loans or some of the directors needed the loans repaid immediately and rather than take money out of the club to repay those loans (or inject more of his own money into the club solely to repay those loans) RM offered to buy the shares of those directors at a good price (and was obliged to make the same offer to the other Directors) in return for restructuring the loan terms and timeframe of the repayments.
I don't think RM would have bought their shares as this would have put him over 29.9% and he'd have to make the same offer to all shareholders.
I also can't imagine that the other directors would have accepted a write down on the debt without requiring that they're paid out pretty much immediately. RM was himself the largest bondholder and with the agreed writedown (quite probbaly hefty) he can probably muster sufficient cash to buy off the others' debt and give Parky a little to spend. The Avesco share-backed loan would not be his only source of funds, though the WWTBAM windfall boost to the Avesco share price might have been sufficient to tempt RM to make the move.
A lot goes a long way in this League (in the right hands of course) and, coming from a low base with little debt, the upside potential in terms of sale value of the Club, even from just re-establishing the Club in the Championship, and the simplification of decision-making (we shouldn't underestimate the potential that existed for "disagreement" among the former bondholders when it came to the on-going need for new funds) could easily have been enough for someone like RM to want to roll the dice one more time in an attempt to restore his reputation and recover some of his losses on CA PLC. However, he knows as we all do that unless the Club can get back to the Prem, it requires on-going funding and I can't help feeling that RM wouldn't have mad this move without having strong confidence in bringing in another investor in the not distant future. We shall see but it would be nice to get a better idea of the deal with the other directors by getting a letter to shareholders…..9 days and counting!
My gut tells me that the Director's that "stepped aside" gave up a lot more than a seat on the board - something that we should be extremely thankful for as we may well have been looking at the "A" word.
According to the original statement Richard has agreed to buy the shares of the other directors - giving him sole control of the club? The first paragraph of the statement said:
"Charlton Athletic plc announced on Tuesday that Richard Murray has agreed terms with his fellow plc board directors and bondholders for the purchase of shares in Charlton Athletic Football Company Ltd and Charlton Athletic Holdings Ltd which will see him assume sole control of the football club".
So I don't know why there isn't a similar offer to other shareholders or no annoucement of the EGM date & details?
According to the original statement Richard has agreed to buy the shares of the other directors - giving him sole control of the club? The first paragraph of the statement said:
"Charlton Athletic plc announced on Tuesday that Richard Murray has agreed terms with his fellow plc board directors and bondholders for the purchase of shares in Charlton Athletic Football Company Ltd and Charlton Athletic Holdings Ltd which will see him assume sole control of the football club".
So I don't know why there isn't a similar offer to other shareholders or no annoucement of the EGM date & details?
I think there is some confusion between the companies Mick. As the release says he is buying the shares of CAFC (the Club) and CAH (which owns The Valley). Those shares are 100% owned by CA PLC which is the holding company of the Group. It is shares in CA PLC that have been issued over the years to RM , other directors and fans. RM, directors and fans have not owned shares in CAFC or CAH. If RM were to buy the other directors' CA PLC shares he would thereby go over 29.9% owenrship and would then be obliged by the takeover rules to make an offer to all CA PLC shareholders for their CA PLC shares. This isn't what's happening though. The release does not say he is buying the other directors' shares in CA PLC but rather shares in CAFC and CAH - those shares being owned by CA PLC. The proceeds paid by RM for the shares of CAFC and CAH will (presumably) go largely or entirely to pay off the bondholdings of the other directors at the agreed discounted price.
There has to be an EGM to ratify the sale by CA PLC of its 2 subsidiaries CAFC and CAH but once executed CA PLC will be a redundant entity, without any assets, and will presumably be put into liquidation.
[cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]My gut tells me that the Director's that "stepped aside" gave up a lot more than a seat on the board - something that we should be extremely thankful for as we may well have been looking at the "A" word.
This 100% i think people should not speculate but congratulate the guys that have done this..
I know i have and i am still full of respect for the lot of them
Basically we are now fully safe from Admin & with everything to look forward to. We are now signing players for Fees albeit small ones, which shows we are moving in the right direction. Think this genuinely could be the turning point for CAFC as a Club after all the Doom & Gloom that has beset us the last Five years or so.
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]Basically we are now fully safe from Admin
Without wishing to be a doomer, i'm not sure how we can determine that from what has been offered.
What appears to have happened is that the overall debts of the club have been reduced, but they have not been fully eradicated.
The only way i can see we are fully safe from admin is if we are generating revenues that cover both the budget for the season and the outstanding debt repayments. If that is not possible, which i doubt, then it is now down to one individual to cover the shortfall.
You could argue that although the Club appears healthier with lower debts, with the responsibility now down to just one person (and that has what so far has been publicly suggested), it to me carries increased risks that costs and debt repayments may not be met so easily in the future.
As long as you pay your taxes no one seems to give a toss, although after the Pompey farce it seems that even they can be told to go take a run and jump...
We just don't know AFKA. We know Ketman has his sources so I am buoyed by his comments but while I remain cautiously optimistic there are still a lot of gaps in our information that prevent me being more than that.
While Peanuts and Brunello have made, what seem to me, educated and well thought suggestions of what might be happening there are still plenty of questions
*If the debt has been "reduced" then to what figure, in what form and to whom is it owned.
*Who owns the PLC and other companies now and who will do so in the near future?
*How will "Charlton Athletic", The Valley and Training Ground be legally structured and owned in the near future?
*What is the projected trading profit/loss for this season and how will it be covered?
*How viable is the Club as a business ie can it break in League 1 and/or the Championship?
*Is there a buyer "in the pipeline" or is this move to make the Club more attractive?
*If the latter just how does it make the Club more attractive to a buyer?
*What is the long term future (ie 3 years plus) if no substantial external investment is made?
*Will a smaller board mean that there are few people to ask to dip into their pockets when times are hard as the other directors did more than once over the last few years?
*And while sole ownership should be quicker decision making will that mean better decision making? I have respect for Richard as a person and as a Chairman but he has made costly (to himself personally and the Club) mistakes as well as many correct calls down the years.
Some may be answered at the EGM, date of which has still not been announced. I doubt any will be answered officially before then. My concern is that some will still not be answered after that date.
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]Basically we are now fully safe from Admin & with everything to look forward to. We are now signing players for Fees albeit small ones, which shows we are moving in the right direction. Think this genuinely could be the turning point for CAFC as a Club after all the Doom & Gloom that has beset us the last Five years or so.
Unless you're the daily mail, or dumb as a box of rocks, we were 100% safe from admin before, I've explained it a dozen times, I can't be arsed again. Now nobody seems to be so sure where the debt sits.
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]Basically we are now fully safe from Admin & with everything to look forward to. We are now signing players for Fees albeit small ones, which shows we are moving in the right direction. Think this genuinely could be the turning point for CAFC as a Club after all the Doom & Gloom that has beset us the last Five years or so.
Unless you're the daily mail, or dumb as a box of rocks, we were 100% safe from admin before, I've explained it a dozen times, I can't be arsed again. Now nobody seems to be so sure where the debt sits.
As Ketman's dad is employed by the club in a senior position, I suggest he knows more than you and your insults.
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]Basically we are now fully safe from Admin & with everything to look forward to. We are now signing players for Fees albeit small ones, which shows we are moving in the right direction. Think this genuinely could be the turning point for CAFC as a Club after all the Doom & Gloom that has beset us the last Five years or so.
Unless you're the daily mail, or dumb as a box of rocks, we were 100% safe from admin before, I've explained it a dozen times, I can't be arsed again. Now nobody seems to be so sure where the debt sits.
As Ketman's dad is employed by the club in a senior position, I suggest he knows more than you and your insults.
Good point and McLovin, no you never explained it a dozen times. You just said that no one other than you understood how Admin worked.
Comments
They do more than just help clubs who are actively looking to sell ...................
Calimere Point Sports is an advisory firm focused on providing high quality financial and commercial advice to the global sports sector. Services include:
■Financial planning and modeling
■Equity and debt raising
■Debt restructuring advice and negotiation
■Pre-acquisition and post-acquisition due diligence for buyers of sports franchises
■Divestiture advisory
■Pre-acquisition and post-acquisition due diligence for buyers of sports franchises
Actually I would have said all those points are geared towards that one aim.
Things must be looking up.
er, er
wait a moment.................
It was only 35 grand !
What do you reckon? Can't afford the stamps?
He would obviously move aside for a takeover, as the Zabeel approach proved, yet so many are happy he’s now in sole charge?
IMHO I still feel we’re a club in limbo until real investment or a takeover comes our way…
On a separate and related note, how come Palace have just spent a couple of hundred thou on a player from ipswich, when they have only just come out of admin. Something wrong there, if they have this money, surely it should have gone to creditors. Not only that but they will be outspending other clubs who did not go into admin but instead have had to cut their cloth accordingly.
The Palace situation came out of a very small slice of their debt being called in...
sorry but how is our debt now external. All the debt is to RM. The previous directors have no debt to the Club. He may have borrowed some money but he has put his Avesco shares up as collateral against that so doesn't affect the Club.
it was restructuring in the sense that if a Director was owed say 3m he agreed to reduce that to 2m and was paid off. However I think amounts written off would have been more substantial than that. All the debt is to RM and RM only.
that still remains although I don't know how much is owed at the moment.
It seems he was able to borrow money using his Avesco shares (which seem to have increased in value due to the 'Who wants to be a Millionaire' settlement [which Disney may be appealing?]).
It also seems that the other Directors/bond holders were willing to 'write down' the value of the debt owed to them as part of Murray's buyout. However, I think someone else has suggested that Murray was able to borrow something like £2-3 million based on his Avesco shares(?). If this is correct was it enough to buyout the others (which I think would be a pretty hefty 'writedown' by them) & give Parky a small amount for transfers (& keep the club going next season?) - or will money still be owed to these ex-Directors after the buyout (& so be 'external') - or has Murray got a pretty certain 'short term' sale or new investment lined up? (in which case why go through the elaborate procedure of the 'buyout'/EGM etc?).
No doubt some of this will come out at the (yet to be announced) EGM?
In his statement he stated ‘...and financially this was potentially one of our darkest hours’. He did not refer to ‘darkest period’ or ‘darkest times’. ‘Darkest hours’ suggest to me some very specific event (such as having to make a large debt repayment it could not afford or a takeover offer from someone that RM did not think would be good for the club but was attractive to a few Directors because of their need for short term cash?) that occurred in the last few weeks that had to be dealt with in order to ensure the survival of the club.
As I said it is my interpretation. But, if in assuming control he had wiped out the £30 million or so debt that everyone knows the club has he would have stated this clearly rather than stating "I am very grateful to Derek Chappell, Sir Maurice Hatter, David Hughes, David Sumners, Steven Ward, David White and Bob Whitehand that, together with me, they have agreed to restructure and reduce the company debt, which in itself should make the club highly attractive to potential investors.’
I don't think RM would have bought their shares as this would have put him over 29.9% and he'd have to make the same offer to all shareholders.
I also can't imagine that the other directors would have accepted a write down on the debt without requiring that they're paid out pretty much immediately. RM was himself the largest bondholder and with the agreed writedown (quite probbaly hefty) he can probably muster sufficient cash to buy off the others' debt and give Parky a little to spend. The Avesco share-backed loan would not be his only source of funds, though the WWTBAM windfall boost to the Avesco share price might have been sufficient to tempt RM to make the move.
A lot goes a long way in this League (in the right hands of course) and, coming from a low base with little debt, the upside potential in terms of sale value of the Club, even from just re-establishing the Club in the Championship, and the simplification of decision-making (we shouldn't underestimate the potential that existed for "disagreement" among the former bondholders when it came to the on-going need for new funds) could easily have been enough for someone like RM to want to roll the dice one more time in an attempt to restore his reputation and recover some of his losses on CA PLC. However, he knows as we all do that unless the Club can get back to the Prem, it requires on-going funding and I can't help feeling that RM wouldn't have mad this move without having strong confidence in bringing in another investor in the not distant future. We shall see but it would be nice to get a better idea of the deal with the other directors by getting a letter to shareholders…..9 days and counting!
According to the original statement Richard has agreed to buy the shares of the other directors - giving him sole control of the club? The first paragraph of the statement said:
"Charlton Athletic plc announced on Tuesday that Richard Murray has agreed terms with his fellow plc board directors and bondholders for the purchase of shares in Charlton Athletic Football Company Ltd and Charlton Athletic Holdings Ltd which will see him assume sole control of the football club".
So I don't know why there isn't a similar offer to other shareholders or no annoucement of the EGM date & details?
I think there is some confusion between the companies Mick. As the release says he is buying the shares of CAFC (the Club) and CAH (which owns The Valley). Those shares are 100% owned by CA PLC which is the holding company of the Group. It is shares in CA PLC that have been issued over the years to RM , other directors and fans. RM, directors and fans have not owned shares in CAFC or CAH. If RM were to buy the other directors' CA PLC shares he would thereby go over 29.9% owenrship and would then be obliged by the takeover rules to make an offer to all CA PLC shareholders for their CA PLC shares. This isn't what's happening though. The release does not say he is buying the other directors' shares in CA PLC but rather shares in CAFC and CAH - those shares being owned by CA PLC. The proceeds paid by RM for the shares of CAFC and CAH will (presumably) go largely or entirely to pay off the bondholdings of the other directors at the agreed discounted price.
There has to be an EGM to ratify the sale by CA PLC of its 2 subsidiaries CAFC and CAH but once executed CA PLC will be a redundant entity, without any assets, and will presumably be put into liquidation.
This 100% i think people should not speculate but congratulate the guys that have done this..
I know i have and i am still full of respect for the lot of them
Without wishing to be a doomer, i'm not sure how we can determine that from what has been offered.
What appears to have happened is that the overall debts of the club have been reduced, but they have not been fully eradicated.
The only way i can see we are fully safe from admin is if we are generating revenues that cover both the budget for the season and the outstanding debt repayments. If that is not possible, which i doubt, then it is now down to one individual to cover the shortfall.
You could argue that although the Club appears healthier with lower debts, with the responsibility now down to just one person (and that has what so far has been publicly suggested), it to me carries increased risks that costs and debt repayments may not be met so easily in the future.
Or am i reading things wrong ?
While Peanuts and Brunello have made, what seem to me, educated and well thought suggestions of what might be happening there are still plenty of questions
*If the debt has been "reduced" then to what figure, in what form and to whom is it owned.
*Who owns the PLC and other companies now and who will do so in the near future?
*How will "Charlton Athletic", The Valley and Training Ground be legally structured and owned in the near future?
*What is the projected trading profit/loss for this season and how will it be covered?
*How viable is the Club as a business ie can it break in League 1 and/or the Championship?
*Is there a buyer "in the pipeline" or is this move to make the Club more attractive?
*If the latter just how does it make the Club more attractive to a buyer?
*What is the long term future (ie 3 years plus) if no substantial external investment is made?
*Will a smaller board mean that there are few people to ask to dip into their pockets when times are hard as the other directors did more than once over the last few years?
*And while sole ownership should be quicker decision making will that mean better decision making? I have respect for Richard as a person and as a Chairman but he has made costly (to himself personally and the Club) mistakes as well as many correct calls down the years.
Some may be answered at the EGM, date of which has still not been announced. I doubt any will be answered officially before then. My concern is that some will still not be answered after that date.
As Ketman's dad is employed by the club in a senior position, I suggest he knows more than you and your insults.
Good point and McLovin, no you never explained it a dozen times. You just said that no one other than you understood how Admin worked.