I would worry about Llera in the Championship but this league he does a decent job. Clumsy at times but as WSS said remember what level we're playing at.
As for Sam he is supposedly poor yet continues to be one of our biggest threats going forward and is decent defensively. Take him out the team and others would look worse for it - he's a good outlet and keeps the ball even when crowded out by 2 or 3 opponents.
[cite]Posted By: Addickson's God[/cite]I cannot understand why we defended so deep against a poor side with only one not very pacy striker. Surely Dailly has been around enough to recognise this. Part of the panic, particularly by Llera would have been avoided if we'd have been 10 or 20 yards up the pitch and Robbie could have swept up easier. Their mediocre midfield would have struggled with less space to work in.
We looked stronger when the subs came on and McKenzie seems fit so why not start him on the left where he has played often in the past, it gives us much better shape. JonJo or Nicky on the left isn't working. Talented as he is, I can't see a place for JJ at the moment. I'm surprised we didn't try him in the holding role when Semedo was suspended, as I think this will be his ultimate role, given his excellent close control and passing. At the moment he drifts in and out of the game and often seems out of position, although we don't know what Parky has instructed him to do.
Its starting to confuse me as to why people cant see a place for Jonjo in the team. Last night he played in the same position as he did against Wycombe, in that game he was narrowly beaten into fist place in the player ratings by Bailey. Maybe last night everyone had a bad game rather than Jonjo not having a position. For what its worth the problem stems from the back not the midfield. They sit far to deep,last night Bailey never got going till the 72nd minute when he made a slide tackle, the rest of the time he was on the edge of our D. If the defence is so deep it makes it harder to play as a unit. Also long floated balls from backs to forwards all night long didn't help players who like to get the ball on the floor and play football. I'm not saying he had a good game christ the whole team were crap. What i'm saying is there is a position because on saturday he was superb in exactly the same role. The only difference is, on Saturday 99% of the team wasn't having a bad game like last night
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
The formation didn't work. Sam and Jon Jo didn't play well and both came inside so often that we had little width or shape. Add that to a lot of players not playing to there best.
Wagstaff will get a lot of praise for the goal and rightly so but he changed the game with his positioning. By playing as a conventional wide player he gave the midfield an out ball every time. Ditto McKenzie. So rather than taking three touches while trying to find where on earth Sam or JJ where Semedo, Bailey etc had an easy first time ball to feet or behind the full back. Semedo and Bailey looked better players as they had options.
I wasn't at the match - but I've already read everybody's feedback on this thread.
It seems obvious to me that the formation is causing many of the issues - and Henry appears to have hit on the reason why above.
Read again Henry's quote - to me it explains why we seem to lack fluency and understanding between players, and how our game is slowed down unnecessarily.
Amazing how everything changed when Waggy and McKenzie added conventional width in the last 20 mins - which then brought the best out of Semedo and Bailey.
Oggy it was 442 once the subs came on, before that it was a mix of a diamond midfield and a 442. Never seen us line up
like that before without a clear formation. Shelvey and Bailey swapped on the left, Sam switched between a right winger and right side of the diamond. Bit of an unusual formation and against better team we can't line up like that. I'm sure Parky will know that though.
[cite]Posted By: Addickson's God[/cite]I cannot understand why we defended so deep against a poor side with only one not very pacy striker. Surely Dailly has been around enough to recognise this. Part of the panic, particularly by Llera would have been avoided if we'd have been 10 or 20 yards up the pitch and Robbie could have swept up easier. Their mediocre midfield would have struggled with less space to work in.
We looked stronger when the subs came on and McKenzie seems fit so why not start him on the left where he has played often in the past, it gives us much better shape. JonJo or Nicky on the left isn't working. Talented as he is, I can't see a place for JJ at the moment. I'm surprised we didn't try him in the holding role when Semedo was suspended, as I think this will be his ultimate role, given his excellent close control and passing. At the moment he drifts in and out of the game and often seems out of position, although we don't know what Parky has instructed him to do.
Its starting to confuse me as to why people cant see a place for Jonjo in the team. Last night he played in the same position as he did against Wycombe, in that game he was narrowly beaten into fist place in the player ratings by Bailey. Maybe last night everyone had a bad game rather than Jonjo not having a position. For what its worth the problem stems from the back not the midfield. They sit far to deep,last night Bailey never got going till the 72nd minute when he made a slide tackle, the rest of the time he was on the edge of our D. If the defence is so deep it makes it harder to play as a unit. Also long floated balls from backs to forwards all night long didn't help players who like to get the ball on the floor and play football. I'm not saying he had a good game christ the whole team were crap. What i'm saying is there is a position because on saturday he was superb in exactly the same role. The only difference is, on Saturday 99% of the team wasn't having a bad game like last night
Uncle as much as i would love shelvey in the team and i think he is an amazing talent, i dont think he fits in the side at the momment. well not at 4-4-2 , undoubtley he is being played out of position but you cant play him in the centre as semedo & bailey have been our best players all season so unfortunate for shlevey he has to either play left midfield until he gets his chance, or the only other way is for us to revert to 4-5-1 again but i would not drop mooney or burton, i do hope we manage to fit him somewhere but as much as the team didn't perform he was trying far too much last night! im usually one of his biggest fans but like you said he did not have a good game and cant really blame the team for him all the time, he just is not a left midfielder
I do think some people are very harsh with shelvey especially on what i have heard about yesterday's chanting etc. i would not boo him regardless and think people do need to take the fact he is 17-18 still, but i do judge him as i would any other and i just cant see a place for him at the momment imho
To be honest I think there's too many folk here trying to analyse last nights game, leastways from a tactical point of view.
The fact is that sometimes(for no apparent reason), your best players choose 'collectively' to have an off day which then has a knock on effect throught the team.
Not sure the tactics or formation were that wrong, simply because so many had poor games that I fancy they'd have played just as badly.................. no matter what the tactics might have been.
Johnny i wasn't actually blaming the team for him and yes i know you are a big fan of his, all i was trying to say was he played in exactly the same position saturday and had a great game. So that tells me it isn't to do with not having a position but more to with him like most of the others didn't have a good game. He does often try to do to much but thats because he cares about winning its not always right but it shows the right signs when you want to get on the ball as much as possible. I noticed last night he often went short trying to get the ball from Dailly (altough not once did he play it to him) I could see why he was doing this. It was because Dailly floated the same ball in time after time after time and everytime the ball just came back out. NLA and NSS were with me and we were all saying its the same thing all the time.
This 'john the rat' and his cronnies, were they at Wycombe? Group of geezers at the back of the stand, probably block D/E. Did not stop giving Sam abuse, even when he wasnt directly involved in the play!
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]I think there's too many folk here tryimg to analyse last nights game from a tactical point of view.
The fact was that sometimes(for no apparent reason), some of your best players choose 'collectively' to have an off day.
Not sure the tactics or formation were that wrong, simply because so many had poor games that I fancy they'd have played just as badly no matter what the tactics may have been.
Agree SoundAs. Usually you expect at least 8 players to have a good game and they can carry the remainder. Last night we had about 2.
[cite]Posted By: ValleyGary[/cite]This 'john the rat' and his cronnies, were they at Wycombe? Group of geezers at the back of the stand, probably block D/E. Did not stop giving Sam abuse, even when he wasnt directly involved in the play!
John the rat what sort of person gives themselves a name like that? I cant wait to see if he actually looks like one
[cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]Johnny i wasn't actually blaming the team for him and yes i know you are a big fan of his, all i was trying to say was he played in exactly the same position saturday and had a great game. So that tells me it isn't to do with not having a position but more to with him like most of the others didn't have a good game. He does often try to do to much but thats because he cares about winning its not always right but it shows the right signs when you want to get on the ball as much as possible. I noticed last night he often went short trying to get the ball from Dailly (altough not once did he play it to him) I could see why he was doing this. It was because Dailly floated the same ball in time after time after time and everytime the ball just came back out. NLA and NSS were with me and we were all saying its the same thing all the time.
I know i was pointing out why people cant see him fitting in the team Unc, I wasn't at wycombe so couldn't really comment. yes i do think it is the teams fault partly but also he did try too much, but sometimes that can end up being a plus+
I completely agree it does show good character and even though it wasn't coming of and he wasn't hiding which i respect alot, i just think the current formation etc isn't working so therefore need 442, which i dont think at the momment Shelvey can get in unfortunately but his time will come im sure!
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Credit also due to Pools who played 451 and stopped us playing.
That may also explain, in part, why our system didn't work as well.
Their lone forward was on the end of nearly every out ball they played and we couldn't stop it.
Still, we know the team and the individuals can play better, we have seen that Waggy and Leon can contribute and we got three points.
Nice long rest till L'Orient with some proper training to prepare.
Even a reserve game coming up next Tuesday. Wonder who the Trialists will be?
Yes it is easy to forget that Hartlepools came to frustrate, probably because of the reputation our fans have for turning on the team as was mentioned more than once by opposition managers last season.
I think the trouble with Sam and Jonjo is that they both try to do too much by themselves. Sometimes Sam kept going with the ball and ran into trouble when it would have been far better to pass it to someone else.
I'm glad we were playing Hartlepool and not a better team like Norwich or Leeds. It seemed to me that the team thought they would win but didn't need to put in the effort required to win. Far too many errors were made by virtually all players. We certainly need to play better than that if we're going to go up.
isn't it great how we all see things differently !!
I thought Llera was okay, Basey ok and he's got a great left peg and he showed a bit of pace to get that cross in as I thought it was going out, Semedo was poor by his standards and Mooney was again, in my opinion, a waste of space. He'll never be a goalscorer, Waggy has got more goals in a lot, lot less playing time. Mooney has no pace, can't jump, never challanges a player and never, ever makes a tackle. Unless we get a another goalscorer we are doomed for the play-off's imo. The formation was wrong and we need to start playing with more width. Jonjo played ok but he's not a wide player. Until we can play him in the centre then I'm afraid he's going to have to sit it out unless we dispense with Semedo at home. Do we need such a defensive midfielder ? Can't we play Bailey and a.n. other ?
Bailey and Richardson were the best two last night.
Overall, a very poor and lacklustre performance and Parky can't really blame the weather and a lack of being able to train as an excuse because it's been the same for everyone. We really do need to improve. Every game we are giving the opposition a chance to get back into it, we need to start killing these games off. When was the last time we actually played well ? Yesterday, Wycombe, Brentford, Millwall - all given opportunities to get back into the game when in each we should have sewn the game up. A win is a win but we need to start being a bit more ruthless. To do so another striker is needed asap.
it was a must win game in hand and for me the players looked nervous and tentative at the start. That led to the crowd being flat and restless. Too many players were off their game togther. I don't like picking on individuals but Sam, despite the odd moment looked like it was too cold and he wished he was in bed.
Those who say that Bailey didn't play until the end of the second half must have missed his tireless covering and tidying up work. My view was that he was aware that others were not at the races so he worked even harder to the effect that he and Semedo seemed to go for the same balls and we tended to defend too deep as a consequence
As for the tactics, well they may have been at fault last night. What I saw were honest professionals many of whom were individually under-performing for long periods of the game. There was a nervousness in our performance. It wasn't helped by an emboldened Pool who clearly saw this as a big day out.
Despite individuals fluffing passes, not getting tight enough and missing headers we still had enough to win the game, maintain our challenge, our great home record and keep our run going.
I doubt we will see so many of our players individually playing poorly again this season. I'm glad it happened in a game against a poor but hardworking team and that we came away with the three points.
[cite]Posted By: Plaaayer[/cite]He'll never be a goal scorer? Despite the fact he scored?
Mate once you've read a few of Large "Slit your Wrists" Addick's posts you'll come to the same conclusion as most of us.
"We're doomed Captain Mainwaring....we're doomed I tell ya".
Comments
good spot!
As for Sam he is supposedly poor yet continues to be one of our biggest threats going forward and is decent defensively. Take him out the team and others would look worse for it - he's a good outlet and keeps the ball even when crowded out by 2 or 3 opponents.
He's the fittest player at the club, supposedly.
Its starting to confuse me as to why people cant see a place for Jonjo in the team. Last night he played in the same position as he did against Wycombe, in that game he was narrowly beaten into fist place in the player ratings by Bailey. Maybe last night everyone had a bad game rather than Jonjo not having a position. For what its worth the problem stems from the back not the midfield. They sit far to deep,last night Bailey never got going till the 72nd minute when he made a slide tackle, the rest of the time he was on the edge of our D. If the defence is so deep it makes it harder to play as a unit. Also long floated balls from backs to forwards all night long didn't help players who like to get the ball on the floor and play football. I'm not saying he had a good game christ the whole team were crap. What i'm saying is there is a position because on saturday he was superb in exactly the same role. The only difference is, on Saturday 99% of the team wasn't having a bad game like last night
I wasn't at the match - but I've already read everybody's feedback on this thread.
It seems obvious to me that the formation is causing many of the issues - and Henry appears to have hit on the reason why above.
Read again Henry's quote - to me it explains why we seem to lack fluency and understanding between players, and how our game is slowed down unnecessarily.
Amazing how everything changed when Waggy and McKenzie added conventional width in the last 20 mins - which then brought the best out of Semedo and Bailey.
Just an opinion.
like that before without a clear formation. Shelvey and Bailey swapped on the left, Sam switched between a right winger and right side of the diamond. Bit of an unusual formation and against better team we can't line up like that. I'm sure Parky will know that though.
Uncle as much as i would love shelvey in the team and i think he is an amazing talent, i dont think he fits in the side at the momment. well not at 4-4-2 , undoubtley he is being played out of position but you cant play him in the centre as semedo & bailey have been our best players all season so unfortunate for shlevey he has to either play left midfield until he gets his chance, or the only other way is for us to revert to 4-5-1 again but i would not drop mooney or burton, i do hope we manage to fit him somewhere but as much as the team didn't perform he was trying far too much last night! im usually one of his biggest fans but like you said he did not have a good game and cant really blame the team for him all the time, he just is not a left midfielder
I do think some people are very harsh with shelvey especially on what i have heard about yesterday's chanting etc. i would not boo him regardless and think people do need to take the fact he is 17-18 still, but i do judge him as i would any other and i just cant see a place for him at the momment imho
What was this chanting that you mention? Surely not...
The fact is that sometimes(for no apparent reason), your best players choose 'collectively' to have an off day which then has a knock on effect throught the team.
Not sure the tactics or formation were that wrong, simply because so many had poor games that I fancy they'd have played just as badly.................. no matter what the tactics might have been.
Agree SoundAs. Usually you expect at least 8 players to have a good game and they can carry the remainder. Last night we had about 2.
John the rat what sort of person gives themselves a name like that? I cant wait to see if he actually looks like one
Nah frazer is much more of a dish! ;o)
I know i was pointing out why people cant see him fitting in the team Unc, I wasn't at wycombe so couldn't really comment. yes i do think it is the teams fault partly but also he did try too much, but sometimes that can end up being a plus+
I completely agree it does show good character and even though it wasn't coming of and he wasn't hiding which i respect alot, i just think the current formation etc isn't working so therefore need 442, which i dont think at the momment Shelvey can get in unfortunately but his time will come im sure!
That was my point, Scoham. It apparently didn't seem clear to the players either.
And when the formation reverted to a more orthodox 4-4-2 in the last 20 minutes, previously ineffective players suddenly sprung into life.
That may also explain, in part, why our system didn't work as well.
Their lone forward was on the end of nearly every out ball they played and we couldn't stop it.
Still, we know the team and the individuals can play better, we have seen that Waggy and Leon can contribute and we got three points.
Nice long rest till L'Orient with some proper training to prepare.
Even a reserve game coming up next Tuesday. Wonder who the Trialists will be?
Given our present financial circumstances I'm assuming it's more likely to be Camber Sands than Malaga?
Yes it is easy to forget that Hartlepools came to frustrate, probably because of the reputation our fans have for turning on the team as was mentioned more than once by opposition managers last season.
I'm glad we were playing Hartlepool and not a better team like Norwich or Leeds. It seemed to me that the team thought they would win but didn't need to put in the effort required to win. Far too many errors were made by virtually all players. We certainly need to play better than that if we're going to go up.
I thought Llera was okay, Basey ok and he's got a great left peg and he showed a bit of pace to get that cross in as I thought it was going out, Semedo was poor by his standards and Mooney was again, in my opinion, a waste of space. He'll never be a goalscorer, Waggy has got more goals in a lot, lot less playing time. Mooney has no pace, can't jump, never challanges a player and never, ever makes a tackle. Unless we get a another goalscorer we are doomed for the play-off's imo. The formation was wrong and we need to start playing with more width. Jonjo played ok but he's not a wide player. Until we can play him in the centre then I'm afraid he's going to have to sit it out unless we dispense with Semedo at home. Do we need such a defensive midfielder ? Can't we play Bailey and a.n. other ?
Bailey and Richardson were the best two last night.
Overall, a very poor and lacklustre performance and Parky can't really blame the weather and a lack of being able to train as an excuse because it's been the same for everyone. We really do need to improve. Every game we are giving the opposition a chance to get back into it, we need to start killing these games off. When was the last time we actually played well ? Yesterday, Wycombe, Brentford, Millwall - all given opportunities to get back into the game when in each we should have sewn the game up. A win is a win but we need to start being a bit more ruthless. To do so another striker is needed asap.
Those who say that Bailey didn't play until the end of the second half must have missed his tireless covering and tidying up work. My view was that he was aware that others were not at the races so he worked even harder to the effect that he and Semedo seemed to go for the same balls and we tended to defend too deep as a consequence
As for the tactics, well they may have been at fault last night. What I saw were honest professionals many of whom were individually under-performing for long periods of the game. There was a nervousness in our performance. It wasn't helped by an emboldened Pool who clearly saw this as a big day out.
Despite individuals fluffing passes, not getting tight enough and missing headers we still had enough to win the game, maintain our challenge, our great home record and keep our run going.
I doubt we will see so many of our players individually playing poorly again this season. I'm glad it happened in a game against a poor but hardworking team and that we came away with the three points.
Onwards and upwards.
I saw Marcus Bent score, Leaburn score, Kim Grant score etc etc - doesn't make any of them goalscorers either.
Mate once you've read a few of Large "Slit your Wrists" Addick's posts you'll come to the same conclusion as most of us.
"We're doomed Captain Mainwaring....we're doomed I tell ya".
Here you come again Large...right on cue!!!