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UFC Thread
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Neither did I, thought the £50 I had on Schevchenko was free money.....Friend Or Defoe said:Great performance from Alexa Grasso, I didn't see that coming.
It's interesting with Jones, so many fighters are pretty normal, nice people, trying to seem like they're bad scary men in their media/ring interviews etc, whereas Jones is an absolutely terrible human being pretending he isn't... He is the GOAT though in my opinion.
Very excited for Edwards Usman. Really hope Edwards can do it, but feel lightning doesn't strike twice.0 -
GTFOChris_from_Sidcup said:Jon Jones. GOAT.0 -
Do you disagree? He was already pretty high in the GOAT discussion before and now he's two division champ, admittedly it was a pretty big mismatch against a guy who lost his last fight but beating Cyril isn't easy and Jon ran through him and only took a nut shot basicallycolthe3rd said:
GTFOChris_from_Sidcup said:Jon Jones. GOAT.0 -
Like you said a complete mismatch, just look at the betting before the fight. Now if he was to beat Stipe and Francis maybe he could be in that conversation but for me you cannot have someone who is in consideration as GOAT who has popped for PEDs more than once. Even before this weekend there has been GOAT talk but DC aside his record isn't against a who's who of the greats is it?LonelyNorthernAddick said:
Do you disagree? He was already pretty high in the GOAT discussion before and now he's two division champ, admittedly it was a pretty big mismatch against a guy who lost his last fight but beating Cyril isn't easy and Jon ran through him and only took a nut shot basicallycolthe3rd said:
GTFOChris_from_Sidcup said:Jon Jones. GOAT.
I also think that running over pregnant women, domestic abuse and drink driving should also count against you when these kind of praises are talked about but I understand the majority of MMA fans probably feel some kind of connection to him for these.0 -
Didn't he have a run of beating Rua, Jackson, Machida, Evans, Belfort, Gustafsson & DC? Five of those are easily top 10 all time LHWs. When you add in the likes of Teixeira, Bader & Sonnen he has basically beaten every great LHW apart from Chuck, Silva, Couture & Ortiz. Who lets be honest, he'd have also destroyed unless Liddell managed to catch him with one.colthe3rd said:
Like you said a complete mismatch, just look at the betting before the fight. Now if he was to beat Stipe and Francis maybe he could be in that conversation but for me you cannot have someone who is in consideration as GOAT who has popped for PEDs more than once. Even before this weekend there has been GOAT talk but DC aside his record isn't against a who's who of the greats is it?LonelyNorthernAddick said:
Do you disagree? He was already pretty high in the GOAT discussion before and now he's two division champ, admittedly it was a pretty big mismatch against a guy who lost his last fight but beating Cyril isn't easy and Jon ran through him and only took a nut shot basicallycolthe3rd said:
GTFOChris_from_Sidcup said:Jon Jones. GOAT.
I also think that running over pregnant women, domestic abuse and drink driving should also count against you when these kind of praises are talked about but I understand the majority of MMA fans probably feel some kind of connection to him for these.1 -
At this point JJ has done enough to show that his skill level is on another level regardless of +ve PED tests. His skills show me he doesn't need the extra strength to beat any opponent.
Re: Huskaris above, this is spot on IMO. Jones is the MMA equivalent of Mike Tyson. A bad man outside of the sport. Most fighters at least manage to hide that they have that side to their personality.2 -
He beat Bader, Shogun, Rampage, Machida, Evans and Belfort all in the space of about 18 months. That's an incredible run.cafcpolo said:
Didn't he have a run of beating Rua, Jackson, Machida, Evans, Belfort, Gustafsson & DC? Five of those are easily top 10 all time LHWs. When you add in the likes of Teixeira, Bader & Sonnen he has basically beaten every great LHW apart from Chuck, Silva, Couture & Ortiz. Who lets be honest, he'd have also destroyed unless Liddell managed to catch him with one.colthe3rd said:
Like you said a complete mismatch, just look at the betting before the fight. Now if he was to beat Stipe and Francis maybe he could be in that conversation but for me you cannot have someone who is in consideration as GOAT who has popped for PEDs more than once. Even before this weekend there has been GOAT talk but DC aside his record isn't against a who's who of the greats is it?LonelyNorthernAddick said:
Do you disagree? He was already pretty high in the GOAT discussion before and now he's two division champ, admittedly it was a pretty big mismatch against a guy who lost his last fight but beating Cyril isn't easy and Jon ran through him and only took a nut shot basicallycolthe3rd said:
GTFOChris_from_Sidcup said:Jon Jones. GOAT.
I also think that running over pregnant women, domestic abuse and drink driving should also count against you when these kind of praises are talked about but I understand the majority of MMA fans probably feel some kind of connection to him for these.
Very questionable human of course but he has to be in the argument for GOAT.0 -
PED discussion is null and void in MMA as everyone is on something.
The amount of fighters that get a positive test yet stay in the sport shows how widespread it is. Same goes for boxing and their dodgy meat.1 -
He beat practically everyone but Rumble at LHW, sent half the LHW division to other promotions/divisions, then gone up to HW and beat a top guy there to be champ, he was the youngest champ ever in the UFC and I believe has the most Title fight wins. It's a shame he'll probably never fight Francis now, and the HW division is thin, but can't see him losing to anyone in the HW division at the moment.colthe3rd said:
Like you said a complete mismatch, just look at the betting before the fight. Now if he was to beat Stipe and Francis maybe he could be in that conversation but for me you cannot have someone who is in consideration as GOAT who has popped for PEDs more than once. Even before this weekend there has been GOAT talk but DC aside his record isn't against a who's who of the greats is it?LonelyNorthernAddick said:
Do you disagree? He was already pretty high in the GOAT discussion before and now he's two division champ, admittedly it was a pretty big mismatch against a guy who lost his last fight but beating Cyril isn't easy and Jon ran through him and only took a nut shot basicallycolthe3rd said:
GTFOChris_from_Sidcup said:Jon Jones. GOAT.
I also think that running over pregnant women, domestic abuse and drink driving should also count against you when these kind of praises are talked about but I understand the majority of MMA fans probably feel some kind of connection to him for these.
He's an arse and I don't like him, but GOAT talk usually purely comes down to skill and achievements and it's hard to argue against Jones on that.0 -
You can't just discount PED use though, especially someone who has failed multiple. You have no idea how much impact those drugs have had on his performances both physical and the mental side of knowing that he is improved from using them.maddferrett said:At this point JJ has done enough to show that his skill level is on another level regardless of +ve PED tests. His skills show me he doesn't need the extra strength to beat any opponent.
Re: Huskaris above, this is spot on IMO. Jones is the MMA equivalent of Mike Tyson. A bad man outside of the sport. Most fighters at least manage to hide that they have that side to their personality.
Clearly I'm in a minority here but all those LHW names, yes good for LHW but on lists of all time great fighters across weight divisions most are nowhere near the conversation. It's been a weak division for a long time (outside of JJ and DC). I'll accept this is hugely opinion based but the one point I won't back down on is the PED stuff, the guy is a cheat, he knows it, everyone knows it.0 - Sponsored links:
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LHW and HW divisions have been weak for a while which counts against Jones IMO. He's definitely in the goat conversation though even if he's not a great person. Probably fair to say best ever LHW and soon best ever HW IMO.
I didn't think the fight was a mismatch before the bell rang. I don't think anyone at LHW & HW can beat him.0 -
I don't understand how beating Shogun, Vitor Belfort, Machida, Rampage, Sonnen, Rashad, Gus, Glover + DC 2x can be seen as a weak division!
Nowadays those names don't seem as intimidating as they have dropped off with age, but 6 of those guys are ex-champs, most of them within a few years of JJ becoming champ, Shogun was only 30/31 when he took the title from him. Glover + DC only became champ after JJ!
His defences later on were less inspiring against a weaker division I agree but when he rose to the top of the LHW division I would say that was probably the peak of the LHW division in terms of legit top 5/10 guys, all of which could've been champion (most of them were at one point or another)
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I'll give you Shogun and Machida. Sonnen was definitely on his way down by that point, Belfort arguably as well. Sorry you're not having Gustafsson as an all time great though their first fight was brilliant. I think Jones definitely benefited by coming into the LHW picture at a time there was a bit of a change with those that were at the top starting to go on their way out. I'm not trying to argue Jones is useless, he's very good arguably could be in talks as GOAT (though I'd still argue that his record isn't as impressive as people make out) but as I said before the PEDs are the main issue, in other sports drugs cheats are automatically discounted from this sort of talk so why not MMA?LonelyNorthernAddick said:I don't understand how beating Shogun, Vitor Belfort, Machida, Rampage, Sonnen, Rashad, Gus, Glover + DC 2x can be seen as a weak division!
Nowadays those names don't seem as intimidating as they have dropped off with age, but 6 of those guys are ex-champs, most of them within a few years of JJ becoming champ, Shogun was only 30/31 when he took the title from him. Glover + DC only became champ after JJ!
His defences later on were less inspiring against a weaker division I agree but when he rose to the top of the LHW division I would say that was probably the peak of the LHW division in terms of legit top 5/10 guys, all of which could've been champion (most of them were at one point or another)0 -
Colby is in reserve for the main event!😃
It was weak after those names had left, although some of them are more middleweight than light heavy in my mind. At one stage (Tito v Chuck) it was the most prestigious division. So calling Jones the LHW goat is some accolade. Pretty sure we can add HW to that as well. The depth of the LW division is why their champion is always so high on the P4P list. Crazy to think Conor referred to it as the stuck in the mud division not so long ago.LonelyNorthernAddick said:I don't understand how beating Shogun, Vitor Belfort, Machida, Rampage, Sonnen, Rashad, Gus, Glover + DC 2x can be seen as a weak division!
Nowadays those names don't seem as intimidating as they have dropped off with age, but 6 of those guys are ex-champs, most of them within a few years of JJ becoming champ, Shogun was only 30/31 when he took the title from him. Glover + DC only became champ after JJ!
His defences later on were less inspiring against a weaker division I agree but when he rose to the top of the LHW division I would say that was probably the peak of the LHW division in terms of legit top 5/10 guys, all of which could've been champion (most of them were at one point or another)0 -
Excited for tomorrow. Can't see Edwards doing it but I am desperate for him to.0
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Sorry to keep coming back on this but I do think it's an interesting debate. Should a weaker class of opponent work against those in the GOAT debate? For example Mighty Mouse was one of the most dominant champions in the history of the UFC, even fights he coasted he would still pull off something crazy yet never gets talked about in these debates.Friend Or Defoe said:Colby is in reserve for the main event!😃
It was weak after those names had left, although some of them are more middleweight than light heavy in my mind. At one stage (Tito v Chuck) it was the most prestigious division. So calling Jones the LHW goat is some accolade. Pretty sure we can add HW to that as well. The depth of the LW division is why their champion is always so high on the P4P list. Crazy to think Conor referred to it as the stuck in the mud division not so long ago.LonelyNorthernAddick said:I don't understand how beating Shogun, Vitor Belfort, Machida, Rampage, Sonnen, Rashad, Gus, Glover + DC 2x can be seen as a weak division!
Nowadays those names don't seem as intimidating as they have dropped off with age, but 6 of those guys are ex-champs, most of them within a few years of JJ becoming champ, Shogun was only 30/31 when he took the title from him. Glover + DC only became champ after JJ!
His defences later on were less inspiring against a weaker division I agree but when he rose to the top of the LHW division I would say that was probably the peak of the LHW division in terms of legit top 5/10 guys, all of which could've been champion (most of them were at one point or another)
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You're right and he was p4p#1 for a long time. Cejudo was also a beast but it was probably the least glamorous division they had. There were pretty strong rumours Dana wanted to bin it, he swapped Mighty Mouse for Askren!
I think the level of opponent counts massively in the debate, which isn't really fair but it is what it is. You can only beat what's in front of you. Then again a deep weight class means the level will be high. There aren't many female featherweight mix martial artists so being the champion of it means little in the goat conversation, unless you beat someone called Cyborg who the division was made for!0 -
Also agree but as you mentioned him a lot of this comes down to Dana and his fetish for the bigger classes and inability to sell the lower weight classes that means the likes of Jones get all the promotional hype. It was pure luck Conor came along despite at the time having Aldo who you could easily sell.0
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Utterly insane Miyao level demonstration of leg locks not working. 😳 He may regret it.
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Thought Leon was fantastic last night, much better than the last one. The results was correct imo, I definitely subscribe to the you have to convincingly beat the champ to win the title and as close as the fight was Usman didn't do that.1
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I had Edwards winning, just. I was hoping for another last second KO but he fought really sensibly and is a legitimate king of the division.
Usman has looked unbeatable and was winning the first fight by a mile. It reminded me of the Lewis v Rahman fight 20 years ago, a pedant like me can argue Lewis wasn't winning that fight or controlling it as convincingly as Usman in their first but the point about people saying one lucky shot was a lottery win for both Rahman and Edwards, difference being Edwards came in and performed like the boss. Usman had clearly prepared well and wanted to get hold of Leon and squeeze his windpipe and Leon just didn't let the fight go that way.0 -
Guess larger weight classes are easier to sell to the causal. Obviously Conor could sell himself with his wit and style.colthe3rd said:Also agree but as you mentioned him a lot of this comes down to Dana and his fetish for the bigger classes and inability to sell the lower weight classes that means the likes of Jones get all the promotional hype. It was pure luck Conor came along despite at the time having Aldo who you could easily sell.
On the goat conversation, it's usually one of Jones, Khabib, Silva and St Pierre and they all have reasons against them. On the women side it's clearly Numes. I don't think any heavyweights (bar Jones) or lighter than Lightweight are in the conversation. Volk, Cejudo and Mighty Mouse should be involved.
If you're wondering, i couldn't clear the. quote. 😕0 -
Superb performance from Edwards. Dominating most rounds is a far more impressive victory then a knock out when down on the cards. No one can doubt him now and if i had my way he would be BBC sports personality of the year!
Annoyed that Colby is getting the next shot, but respect him for turning up and making weight. I wanted Belal Muhammad to be Edwards next opponent regardless of the result. I liked how Edwards gave Colby the cold shoulder and called out Masvidal! Now to hear Colby claim the UK is a dump because we don't have weekly school shootings. 😕
Was surreal seeing Bradley Hill in the Octagon afterwards.
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Silva is probably my favourite fighter all time but the PED stuff probably goes against him for goat. It probably is GSP or Khabib. Volk probably goes close but maybe falling short of LW title is his big minus currently.Friend Or Defoe said:
Guess larger weight classes are easier to sell to the causal. Obviously Conor could sell himself with his wit and style.colthe3rd said:Also agree but as you mentioned him a lot of this comes down to Dana and his fetish for the bigger classes and inability to sell the lower weight classes that means the likes of Jones get all the promotional hype. It was pure luck Conor came along despite at the time having Aldo who you could easily sell.
On the goat conversation, it's usually one of Jones, Khabib, Silva and St Pierre and they all have reasons against them. On the women side it's clearly Numes. I don't think any heavyweights (bar Jones) or lighter than Lightweight are in the conversation. Volk, Cejudo and Mighty Mouse should be involved.
If you're wondering, i couldn't clear the. quote. 😕0 -
GSP wasn't as dominate as Khabib who retired early. You can make a case against all of them. If Volk and Islam dominate their divisions then it probably helps Volk's cause long term.
Guess Usman is out of the debate now. 😃1 -
Edwards doesn't see why Colby deserves a title shot and believes there's more money is in Masvidal. Dana seems to have the hots for Colby though who claimed to not know who Edwards was not so long ago. Either way expect loads of boring stuff to come out of Colby's mouth whilst Belal adds to his streak.
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Leon completely negated Usman I thought, made him look very one dimensional and chewed his legs up. Definitely think the 48-46 scores were correct.
Will say that Leon was a bit dirty in that fight (albeit probably not on purpose), the fence grab deserved a point and he did almost every foul in the book, just needed to knee Usman when he was downed and hit him with a 12-6 elbow to round it out!1 -
Surprised Leon complained about the fence grab post fight. It's a hold your hands up and apologies situation IMO. Correct call by Herb.0
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Especially when that was round 2 or 3 and he'd already hit him in the balls, eye poked him, fingers inside the glove... kind of hard to complain when you literally got lifted off the ground and stayed upright cause you were clinging onto the fence! I don't think the fighters do that on purpose most of the time as I think its a natural reaction to being lifted that is hard to stop but it still deserved the point.Friend Or Defoe said:Surprised Leon complained about the fence grab post fight. It's a hold your hands up and apologies situation IMO. Correct call by Herb.1 -
And their last fight was a no contest. Shows Dana White privilege is a thing imo. It's clear to me that Belal has earned a shot.
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