Something that annoys me has been the seemingly radio silence regarding this subject from the powers above. Even if there was a vote confidence come out and say it. Even in the trust meeting Roddy and Gallen seemed to tip toe around the subject all seems very strange to me as if there’s something more to it than meets the eye
Honestly, who knows. But making "statement" means acknowledging publicly that there is a problem (which we all know of course is blindingly obvious). Maybe TS is still hoping that Adkins will miraculously pull a rabbit out of the hat and turn things around. I honestly have no idea anymore, but for sure Tommy has to grapple not only with a failing manager but also the possible realisation that the long-term vision/model is flawed (and maybe that's the reason for the hesitancy)
Getting more pissed off at TS by the day. Why is Adkins still in charge of this football club.
I can't shake off the feeling that something bad is going on behind the scenes.
Most of us fell for Southall at first, and while I don't think TS is in the slightest bit dodgy I do feel we may have got far too excited about him. Let's face it, he did get us out of a dreadful situation but at the expense of separating the club from the Valley. A bit like Southall, he arrived at a time when we were desperate and said all the right things. I'm not sure what to think right now, and maybe I've got my conspiracy theory head on, but I'm anxious about the future under Tommy.
TS didn’t separate the club from The Valley, that was ESI. What he couldn’t do and nobody else could either was prise it out of Roland’s hands.
My view of TS hasn’t changed. He is a decent man who wants to make the club a success, but he won’t do it without the right support around him. He hasn’t got that. His choice. However, he does have far more substance than Southall and co. I think he believes what he says, but he is also unrealistic.
As for Sandgaard selling the club or attracting an investor, it isn’t really worth anything, so he’d probably struggle on both counts even if he was so minded.
By the way, as Bowyer pointed out when Southall announced he was offering him a five year deal, managers’ contracts don’t usually get paid up in full, hence the length isn’t the key. My guess is Adkins is on £300k-£400k pa and that’s probably what he’ll get. It’s just a question of when.
He knew exactly how much the club cost to run, else what were his expensive law firm actually advising him on.
I also believe that he was told/advised, use what ever term you like, that there was massive, untapped, potential commercial revenue and that the transfer market could be gamed.
You couldn’t predict the pandemic, but I’m sure he was all over the historic cost base. What it won’t have shown him is the fact that all the knowledge about the business was stripped out of the club from 2012-14. I’m not talking about me - Varney, Kavanagh, Paul Ellison, Matt Wright, Dave Archer, Wendy Perfect, Prettee Jayasundera and a host of others below the more senior level all went. The only one who survived was Mick Everett and he was marginalised by Meire. Chris Parkes is irrelevant to the business as his role is football admin.
The people who came in to run the business (“professionalise it” as some laughably claimed on here) all moved on in short order: Prothero, Kensell, Bradshaw and Joyes (who was hired by Kavanagh). They would, because it was just a job to them, and some of them weren’t very good at it either.
Say what you like about the 1984-2012 board there were always people on it who understood the club and challenged the executive on one level or another if they felt it was falling short. From 2012-2020 there was only Murray. Now there is no one except TS. I doubt if the other guy does anything re the business operation. It appears he was brought in because TS was previously in breach of the company’s articles of association.
There are some good people working at Charlton now but they generally aren’t fans and don’t have the knowledge of or passion for the club. Like it or not, that made a difference to the value people brought to their roles.
As for commercial “potential”, same old, same old. Every incoming administration has believed that they could do better than the past because it suits them to believe that and they don’t understand the culture or the context. The club isn’t doomed to fail but neither is it able to change the world in which it operates. TS talks about filling the ground as if it’s never been tried - as a club we pioneered that approach with some success.
I do think you can game the transfer market, as Brentford have, but you need the right people in post. You also need to spend more than he did on Dobson and Clare, is my guess. But none of this matters if he doesn’t bite the bullet on Adkins.
But it's not 'either or', is it?
Yes, Adkins is making a mess of things, but it's clear that Sandgaard needs to address both issues ... Manager and the lack of 'cultural/contextual' understanding as you put it.
One may be quicker and easier to deal with than the other, but both have to be done.
As I have said in earlier posts ... Step 1 for Sandgaard is that he has to realise that he needs help, and to ask for it.
Quite, but first things first. We can't continue to play like we are regardless of anything else that's needed. That has to stop.
Buck stops with TS yes but not all down to him. If it was me I’d feel badly let down by my advisors and asking some serious questions of them and in particular Mr Roddy as to ‘Why shouldn’t I bin you off with the Manager?’ 😡,
Why does the buck stop with the owner?
Pretty obvious isn’t it he’s the ultimate decision maker.
I don't agree. I find it strange that during a run of bad results, everyone looks to the owner. I think it's a byproduct of our years of ownership abuse.
I don’t think everyone is looking purely at the owner but there’s no getting away from the fact that he put the management structure together so if it goes pear shaped it’s down to him, it’s his investment, project / business plan.
Now you can look at where that plan has failed down the chain of command but he can’t totally absolve himself of responsibility. Delegate by all means as he has done to Roddy and co but don’t bury your head and hope it all comes good. Urgent action needs to be taken to right the ship and I would hope those wheels are in motion. Failing which he will not only lose my sympathy and that of many others but loads more money in L2.
I agree he has the responsibility to put right any appointments that have gone wrong. (Re: Adkins). I just don't agree that the results on the pitch are primarily his responsibility, if that's even what you were saying. TS is the club steward, he's here to put things in place so that we hopefully progress, to safeguard the future of the club and ensure we're sticking to our values. He can't motivate players, get the tactics right or win tackles. He hires the guy who can - and then it's that guy's responsibility.
The fact that he never fired Bowyer despite how bad things were for months under him, tells me we're stuck with Adkins, I suspect for at least another couple of months, regardless of how bad things get.
Plus Adkins was Sandgaard’s appointment, so he’s even more invested. Time to find out if TS ‘does failure’.
I hope to arrive at the Valley this evening to the news we have a caretaker manager until things get sorted better. Even if we win or draw this evening I don’t believe continuing with Nigel Adkins is credible. He does not seem to be able to get a football team to play like a team. He had chances to sort this. On the most basic of levels have we even got two players with an understanding of each other, or a partnership, or complement each other, or play for each other, or watch their teammates back? Let alone three players. Or a defensive unit, or a midfield unit, or an attacking unit? Every side we have played this season has played like a team even if they were a bad team. Excuses, or even reasons, don’t cut it, this is supposed to be a team sport.
Buck stops with TS yes but not all down to him. If it was me I’d feel badly let down by my advisors and asking some serious questions of them and in particular Mr Roddy as to ‘Why shouldn’t I bin you off with the Manager?’ 😡,
Why does the buck stop with the owner?
Pretty obvious isn’t it he’s the ultimate decision maker.
I don't agree. I find it strange that during a run of bad results, everyone looks to the owner. I think it's a byproduct of our years of ownership abuse.
I don’t think everyone is looking purely at the owner but there’s no getting away from the fact that he put the management structure together so if it goes pear shaped it’s down to him, it’s his investment, project / business plan.
Now you can look at where that plan has failed down the chain of command but he can’t totally absolve himself of responsibility. Delegate by all means as he has done to Roddy and co but don’t bury your head and hope it all comes good. Urgent action needs to be taken to right the ship and I would hope those wheels are in motion. Failing which he will not only lose my sympathy and that of many others but loads more money in L2.
I agree he has the responsibility to put right any appointments that have gone wrong. (Re: Adkins). I just don't agree that the results on the pitch are primarily his responsibility, if that's even what you were saying. TS is the club steward, he's here to put things in place so that we hopefully progress, to safeguard the future of the club and ensure we're sticking to our values. He can't motivate players, get the tactics right or win tackles. He hires the guy who can - and then it's that guy's responsibility.
But having employed the person whose responsibility that actually IS it does make it his problem to solve if said person fails.
If the problems do go beyond simply the manager... Well it's still his responsibility then. He's the one who made the appointments, set the structure and is ultimately responsible for the whole culture of the club. If the people who are meant to be sorting those issues aren't capable of doing so, he needs to be the one to find people who are.
Yes, he's facing an uphill struggle as the club has been absolutely gutted and abused by previous ownerships. But he's in charge now and that makes it his problem to deal with.
Buck stops with TS yes but not all down to him. If it was me I’d feel badly let down by my advisors and asking some serious questions of them and in particular Mr Roddy as to ‘Why shouldn’t I bin you off with the Manager?’ 😡,
Why does the buck stop with the owner?
Pretty obvious isn’t it he’s the ultimate decision maker.
I don't agree. I find it strange that during a run of bad results, everyone looks to the owner. I think it's a byproduct of our years of ownership abuse.
I don’t think everyone is looking purely at the owner but there’s no getting away from the fact that he put the management structure together so if it goes pear shaped it’s down to him, it’s his investment, project / business plan.
Now you can look at where that plan has failed down the chain of command but he can’t totally absolve himself of responsibility. Delegate by all means as he has done to Roddy and co but don’t bury your head and hope it all comes good. Urgent action needs to be taken to right the ship and I would hope those wheels are in motion. Failing which he will not only lose my sympathy and that of many others but loads more money in L2.
I agree he has the responsibility to put right any appointments that have gone wrong. (Re: Adkins). I just don't agree that the results on the pitch are primarily his responsibility, if that's even what you were saying. TS is the club steward, he's here to put things in place so that we hopefully progress, to safeguard the future of the club and ensure we're sticking to our values. He can't motivate players, get the tactics right or win tackles. He hires the guy who can - and then it's that guy's responsibility.
But having employed the person whose responsibility that actually IS it does make it his problem to solve if said person fails.
If the problems do go beyond simply the manager... Well it's still his responsibility then. He's the one who made the appointments, set the structure and is ultimately responsible for the whole culture of the club. If the people who are meant to be sorting those issues aren't capable of doing so, he needs to be the one to find people who are.
Yes, he's facing an uphill struggle as the club has been absolutely gutted and abused by previous ownerships. But he's in charge now and that makes it his problem to deal with.
Yes, I think we agree. I am just not convinced the problems do go beyond the current manager. I think it's a simple question - should we be doing better with what we have? Clearly the answer has to be yes. Then it follows that our problems on the pitch are down to the coaches, the manager and the players.
Getting more pissed off at TS by the day. Why is Adkins still in charge of this football club.
I can't shake off the feeling that something bad is going on behind the scenes.
Most of us fell for Southall at first, and while I don't think TS is in the slightest bit dodgy I do feel we may have got far too excited about him. Let's face it, he did get us out of a dreadful situation but at the expense of separating the club from the Valley. A bit like Southall, he arrived at a time when we were desperate and said all the right things. I'm not sure what to think right now, and maybe I've got my conspiracy theory head on, but I'm anxious about the future under Tommy.
TS didn’t separate the club from The Valley, that was ESI. What he couldn’t do and nobody else could either was prise it out of Roland’s hands.
My view of TS hasn’t changed. He is a decent man who wants to make the club a success, but he won’t do it without the right support around him. He hasn’t got that. His choice. However, he does have far more substance than Southall and co. I think he believes what he says, but he is also unrealistic.
As for Sandgaard selling the club or attracting an investor, it isn’t really worth anything, so he’d probably struggle on both counts even if he was so minded.
By the way, as Bowyer pointed out when Southall announced he was offering him a five year deal, managers’ contracts don’t usually get paid up in full, hence the length isn’t the key. My guess is Adkins is on £300k-£400k pa and that’s probably what he’ll get. It’s just a question of when.
He knew exactly how much the club cost to run, else what were his expensive law firm actually advising him on.
I also believe that he was told/advised, use what ever term you like, that there was massive, untapped, potential commercial revenue and that the transfer market could be gamed.
You couldn’t predict the pandemic, but I’m sure he was all over the historic cost base. What it won’t have shown him is the fact that all the knowledge about the business was stripped out of the club from 2012-14. I’m not talking about me - Varney, Kavanagh, Paul Ellison, Matt Wright, Dave Archer, Wendy Perfect, Prettee Jayasundera and a host of others below the more senior level all went. The only one who survived was Mick Everett and he was marginalised by Meire. Chris Parkes is irrelevant to the business as his role is football admin.
The people who came in to run the business (“professionalise it” as some laughably claimed on here) all moved on in short order: Prothero, Kensell, Bradshaw and Joyes (who was hired by Kavanagh). They would, because it was just a job to them, and some of them weren’t very good at it either.
Say what you like about the 1984-2012 board there were always people on it who understood the club and challenged the executive on one level or another if they felt it was falling short. From 2012-2020 there was only Murray. Now there is no one except TS. I doubt if the other guy does anything re the business operation. It appears he was brought in because TS was previously in breach of the company’s articles of association.
There are some good people working at Charlton now but they generally aren’t fans and don’t have the knowledge of or passion for the club. Like it or not, that made a difference to the value people brought to their roles.
As for commercial “potential”, same old, same old. Every incoming administration has believed that they could do better than the past because it suits them to believe that and they don’t understand the culture or the context. The club isn’t doomed to fail but neither is it able to change the world in which it operates. TS talks about filling the ground as if it’s never been tried - as a club we pioneered that approach with some success.
I do think you can game the transfer market, as Brentford have, but you need the right people in post. You also need to spend more than he did on Dobson and Clare, is my guess. But none of this matters if he doesn’t bite the bullet on Adkins.
But it's not 'either or', is it?
Yes, Adkins is making a mess of things, but it's clear that Sandgaard needs to address both issues ... Manager and the lack of 'cultural/contextual' understanding as you put it.
One may be quicker and easier to deal with than the other, but both have to be done.
As I have said in earlier posts ... Step 1 for Sandgaard is that he has to realise that he needs help, and to ask for it.
Quite, but first things first. We can't continue to play like we are regardless of anything else that's needed. That has to stop.
Buck stops with TS yes but not all down to him. If it was me I’d feel badly let down by my advisors and asking some serious questions of them and in particular Mr Roddy as to ‘Why shouldn’t I bin you off with the Manager?’ 😡,
Why does the buck stop with the owner?
Pretty obvious isn’t it he’s the ultimate decision maker.
I don't agree. I find it strange that during a run of bad results, everyone looks to the owner. I think it's a byproduct of our years of ownership abuse.
I don’t think everyone is looking purely at the owner but there’s no getting away from the fact that he put the management structure together so if it goes pear shaped it’s down to him, it’s his investment, project / business plan.
Now you can look at where that plan has failed down the chain of command but he can’t totally absolve himself of responsibility. Delegate by all means as he has done to Roddy and co but don’t bury your head and hope it all comes good. Urgent action needs to be taken to right the ship and I would hope those wheels are in motion. Failing which he will not only lose my sympathy and that of many others but loads more money in L2.
I agree he has the responsibility to put right any appointments that have gone wrong. (Re: Adkins). I just don't agree that the results on the pitch are primarily his responsibility, if that's even what you were saying. TS is the club steward, he's here to put things in place so that we hopefully progress, to safeguard the future of the club and ensure we're sticking to our values. He can't motivate players, get the tactics right or win tackles. He hires the guy who can - and then it's that guy's responsibility.
But having employed the person whose responsibility that actually IS it does make it his problem to solve if said person fails.
If the problems do go beyond simply the manager... Well it's still his responsibility then. He's the one who made the appointments, set the structure and is ultimately responsible for the whole culture of the club. If the people who are meant to be sorting those issues aren't capable of doing so, he needs to be the one to find people who are.
Yes, he's facing an uphill struggle as the club has been absolutely gutted and abused by previous ownerships. But he's in charge now and that makes it his problem to deal with.
Yes, I think we agree. I am just not convinced the problems do go beyond the current manager. I think it's a simple question - should we be doing better with what we have? Clearly the answer has to be yes. Then it follows that our problems on the pitch are down to the coaches, the manager and the players.
I think it's possibly both. This manager is certainly not getting the best out of the players but is that because he's outdated/not very good or is it because of problems behind the scenes - too many cooks etc. Or maybe both - a poor manager made to look even worse by other factors.
The only way we find out is if (or perhaps when) he does go, as he must now, and see what will happen.
Buck stops with TS yes but not all down to him. If it was me I’d feel badly let down by my advisors and asking some serious questions of them and in particular Mr Roddy as to ‘Why shouldn’t I bin you off with the Manager?’ 😡,
Why does the buck stop with the owner?
Pretty obvious isn’t it he’s the ultimate decision maker.
I don't agree. I find it strange that during a run of bad results, everyone looks to the owner. I think it's a byproduct of our years of ownership abuse.
I don’t think everyone is looking purely at the owner but there’s no getting away from the fact that he put the management structure together so if it goes pear shaped it’s down to him, it’s his investment, project / business plan.
Now you can look at where that plan has failed down the chain of command but he can’t totally absolve himself of responsibility. Delegate by all means as he has done to Roddy and co but don’t bury your head and hope it all comes good. Urgent action needs to be taken to right the ship and I would hope those wheels are in motion. Failing which he will not only lose my sympathy and that of many others but loads more money in L2.
I agree he has the responsibility to put right any appointments that have gone wrong. (Re: Adkins). I just don't agree that the results on the pitch are primarily his responsibility, if that's even what you were saying. TS is the club steward, he's here to put things in place so that we hopefully progress, to safeguard the future of the club and ensure we're sticking to our values. He can't motivate players, get the tactics right or win tackles. He hires the guy who can - and then it's that guy's responsibility.
But having employed the person whose responsibility that actually IS it does make it his problem to solve if said person fails.
If the problems do go beyond simply the manager... Well it's still his responsibility then. He's the one who made the appointments, set the structure and is ultimately responsible for the whole culture of the club. If the people who are meant to be sorting those issues aren't capable of doing so, he needs to be the one to find people who are.
Yes, he's facing an uphill struggle as the club has been absolutely gutted and abused by previous ownerships. But he's in charge now and that makes it his problem to deal with.
Yes, I think we agree. I am just not convinced the problems do go beyond the current manager. I think it's a simple question - should we be doing better with what we have? Clearly the answer has to be yes. Then it follows that our problems on the pitch are down to the coaches, the manager and the players.
I think it's possibly both. This manager is certainly not getting the best out of the players but is that because he's outdated/not very good or is it because of problems behind the scenes - too many cooks etc. Or maybe both - a poor manager made to look even worse by other factors.
The only way we find out is if (or perhaps when) he does go, as he must now, and see what will happen.
It could very well be both, there's just no credible evidence that it is.
Comments
But making "statement" means acknowledging publicly that there is a problem (which we all know of course is blindingly obvious).
Maybe TS is still hoping that Adkins will miraculously pull a rabbit out of the hat and turn things around.
I honestly have no idea anymore, but for sure Tommy has to grapple not only with a failing manager but also the possible realisation that the long-term vision/model is flawed (and maybe that's the reason for the hesitancy)
tommy's here to sack ya
Even if we win or draw this evening I don’t believe continuing with Nigel Adkins is credible.
He does not seem to be able to get a football team to play like a team. He had chances to sort this.
On the most basic of levels have we even got two players with an understanding of each other, or a partnership, or complement each other, or play for each other, or watch their teammates back?
Let alone three players. Or a defensive unit, or a midfield unit, or an attacking unit?
Every side we have played this season has played like a team even if they were a bad team.
Excuses, or even reasons, don’t cut it, this is supposed to be a team sport.
If the problems do go beyond simply the manager... Well it's still his responsibility then. He's the one who made the appointments, set the structure and is ultimately responsible for the whole culture of the club. If the people who are meant to be sorting those issues aren't capable of doing so, he needs to be the one to find people who are.
Yes, he's facing an uphill struggle as the club has been absolutely gutted and abused by previous ownerships. But he's in charge now and that makes it his problem to deal with.
Fair point.
Amos
Matthews, Famewo, Pearce, Purrington
Gilbey, Watson, Foster-Caskey
Jaiyesimi, Stockley, Millar
This XI won 0-6 away at Plymouth just 6 months ago. Now tell me 8 of them are not good enough to compete near the top of this league.
Certainly didnt rate Millar as much as the season progressed, felt opponents sussed him out
Also, he should be given the chop win, lose, or draw..one win doesn't change anything, just papers over a few cracks..
The other two no way, Millar got moaned about on here as did Amos.
The only way we find out is if (or perhaps when) he does go, as he must now, and see what will happen.
at least he will be able to see and hear for himself the crowds displeasure.