Catalan Independence vote
Comments
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@Anna_Kissed
55% of the population of Scotland voted to remain in the UK in a free and democratic election. I suggest that should be respected. Way bigger majority than Brexit ;-)3 -
I'm sure it's comforting for Spanish and Catalans alike to know that an anarchist based in the UK who understands absolutely nothing about their country or its people is so keen on the outcome of an illegal, poorly monitored and laughably rigged vote.Anna_Kissed said:I stand by what I wrote on the day of the Catalan Referendum vote. My sympathies lay with those who were invited to vote and who tried to do so (irrespective of which way they voted).
The conservative Spanish State wants to retain the status quo and, in order to realise it, acts as a bully does; intimidation and violence to those trying to vote, the rejection of the result of the referendum and, now, seeking to dissolve the Catalan government.
I'm opposed to angry Nationalsim and associated Militarism, but I'm in favour of autonomy and independence, especially so when in a co-operative, federal setting (which, I accept, may appear somewhat incongruous).
I remain sympathetic to the cause of Catalan independence. (I have similar thoughts about independence for Scotland).5 -
@Weegie Addick
Aided by the elbows of Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, etc. The result was as it was. I remain sympathetic to the alternative (as I could say about pretty much every election result since I was old enough to vote).
I referenced Scotland in brackets, as I don't wish to go away from the central topic of this thread.0 -
F**f if you have nothing sensible to addRed_in_SE8 said:
Did they not look at increasing trade relations with Bangladesh? Apparently this is the way forward for newly independent, stand alone, 'we've taken back our sovereignty', countries.ken_shabby said:Been off this for a while - I was away from Catalunya, and also fairly sick of the whole thing. Driving back from Andalusia on saturday listening to the radio made me remember how Little I missed all of this. A couple of fun quotes when the article 155 was invoked and ten, The mayores of Barcelona, Ada Colau said it was the worst day in 40 years for Barcelona, neatly forgettint the 17 people who died in a terrorist attack on the Ramblas two months ago, Another member of the Catalan Independence movement said they were in 'shock' after the attack on democracy here. To be honest, this sort of childish victimism is really beginning to grind my gears. They neatly forget that they were the ones who invoked an utterly undemocatic referéndum and then tried to apply the results over the heads of all the people who were born here and don't want to see the economy destroyed over such a foolish issue. At the momento, over 400 companies have relocated out of Catalunya, all of which is revenue lost (probably forever if the example of Quebec is to be believed) to the republic.
The pride of place however goes to the CUP anti capitalist party, who only have a limited number of seats but also control the balance of power as they allow the Indepes as they are called, to have a majority in parliament. They were on the radio this morning in all their glory. The curret plan is that Catalunya dosen't need Europe or the Euro, as Europe is equally fascist as Spain. Instead, they will make treaties with other similar countries and trade with....wait for it....Venezuela, Cuba, and some country I can't remember in the Caucasus. You can see the attraction to big businesses to invest here when members of the Govern view the future like that.
As @i_b_b_o_r_g says, it'll be an interesting week. One ting that has come to light here is how much money the Catalan government has been spending with public funds on promoting Independence for the last decade. One ex president handed over 1,000,000 euro to found a radical pro Independence newspapaer, Ara ('Now' in English) and they continue to subsidise it. Ither payments include inviting possibly friendly members of the international press here to explain how badly Independence is neede, and to offer presents for a good write up. Yet more has been spent on kiddies books explaining how Spain has systematically robbed Catalunya forever, and continues to do so until the Catalans shake off the chains of oppression.
I guess my take is still that this could have been avoided if the idiotic Mariano Rajoy had actually offered constructive dialogue six years ago, instead of pompously waving the Catalans away. But the more the covert Independence machinations come to light, the more angry I get that these people are sabotaging the entire country for their inflated egoistic ideas of Independence. Various groups (teachers and members of the Catalan government among others) have already stated that they will not under any circumstance obey orders from Madrid, so there will probably be a head on collision later in the week. For the rest of us, tourism is already calculating a billion euros in lost bookings and cancellations, the property and construction markets have stalled. That is two major players in the Catalan economy. As a friend of mine said yesterday, was it really so bad here that they had to do all of this? And for what gain? Idiots.
When the history books are written it will be a close run contest to decide which is the most stupid, moronic, self-destructive decision by a population in the 21st century, Brexit or the Catalan independence vote.
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I must admit to not know too much detail on this and it has probably been covered earlier in the thread. However can some-one tell me why there the Spanish govt will not allow a proper vote on independence?
It seems to me they are scared of losing power as all politicians are. Please correct me if I am wrong as I really do not have an idea on this and probably ought to0 -
@Leroy Ambrose
Please don't draw conclusions by conflating an internet username and a political ideology.
You have no knowledge concerning my understanding of, and relationship with Spain.
That the vote was declared illegal (by some), or was rigged, or beset by interference and violence, is irrelevant. I am entitled to my view of the potential outcome of this situation. It would appear to differ from yours. This is a discussion group. Let's keep it civil.0 -
It was illegal in the sense that it was against the law, plus there seems to be even less mandate for Catalan independence demographically than there is for Scottish independence. You'd think people porporting to dislike the establishment would get that.2
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I had a vote in my house last night, it wasnt supported by the constitution, but turn out was 100%.
We decided I'm now prime minister, I look forward to your continued support @Anna_Kissed7 -
Any chance the violence level increases?0
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Imagine if Sinn Fein organised a vote for Northern Ireland to join the Republican of Ireland. Their own supporters vote in it (printing ballot papers from the Internet and giving them in to any 'polling station' that Sinn Fein have set up) and Unionists obviously don't as it is not official. Would the fact that it is an overwhelming vote of 'Yes' make it a legitimate election?5
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Sorry, long winded reply coming....
My wife got embroiled in a discussion with the woman who cleans her office, and who is wildly Independence prone. As I may have said, I have yet to hear a decent arguement from anyone on that side of the fence that can't involve the ghost of the 40 years dead Franco, or the freedom from opression thead. My wife is tearing her hair out - bookings are literally zero here, across the board in Catalunya. The lady on the other side admmitted there might be a few 'dificulties' to begin with but thene everything would be great. My wife asked about the problema with no one in Europe recognising the Catalan state, and the reply, 'Europe is all PP' (that's the Spanish government for anyone new on here). A bit gobsmacked she asked about the rest of the planet. Bunch of fascists, she was told. And the money for pensions now that Catalunya has to fund it's own déficit ridden pension lan. Ah yes, that will be a problem but it'll be fine, you'll see! After that, the legitimacy of the vote, which was argued back 'what about the pólice hitting people?'
And therin lies the`problem for months ahead. The Catalan Independence group are a minority, but they are a very big minority. If you take away the 'can't be bothered with this stuff' brugade, there are probably only a few points of difference. But while Puigdemont has mouthed off about dialogue, this group see anyone not ready to acknowlege their right to drag Catalunya out of Spain as a Fascist. They had a referéndum, they won, they are going, byeeee, end of story.
I spent a bit of yesterday in a daze looking at all the festivities on the telly here. My question was what exactly the Catalan parliament thought they were doing. Once again Ines Arrimendes did a sterling job exposing all the lies and the law breaking (even of the Catalan constitution) that Puigdemont and Friends have indulged in to get to this stage. And they logically knew there would be a response from Madrid. The pólice found a route map a month ago outlining the way to Independence and the likely responses to each move from Barcelona. Jonqueras has even been Heard on the telephone, apparently admitting that the new republic was inviable, and discussing how to hide that from his allies in Parliament (they must be fairly dim if they need that spelling out - 1500 firms have moved headquarters out of Catalunya since yesterday, and that will turn into a flood if this goes any further, hence taxes in Catalunya, as well as trade, will become almost zero. The only ting I can see is that all the ones celebrating yesterday have written any alternative scenario off as fascist anti propaganda. Yesterday, they won. When the parliament get's shut down, Puigdemont eventually gets arrested, and all this get's pushed back, the repose will be more hysterical 'victimisation' tan we've had up to now. There is a horrible sense of self entitlement among them, denying the voice of the other half of Catalunya as they are 'not properly catalans, just imigrants', and that will overflow. And I think that is the atmosphere yesterdays vote was looking to achieve, and later to exploit. They know full well this is going nowhere, although there may well be bloodshed as the people are going to be called out to defend the legitimate institutions of Catalunya against the return of Francoism. And I think the Independence movement are cynically looking to achieve just that. More pólice brutality and an angry backlash, including a lot of the middle ground who might not necessarily want Independence but loathe the idea of baton weilding pólice charging into barricades of unarmed civilians. The CUP party were calling for mass disobedience last week, and I imagine that will be amplified.
The fact is the planning that has gone into this secession has been huge, and is starting to come to light. The ANC platform for Catalunya has apparently already got an alternative assembly ready for if and when the Generalitat gets overturned (it was last night on paper). Indoctrination in the schools has been ongoing for two generations, varying wildly on school and teacher. Te route map and some of the links between different institutions, as well as groundwork on convincing people abroad of the legitimacy of Catalan freedom is ongoing and has been for years. And I think @redman that part of the reason the Spanish won't let a legitimate referéndum take place is in part that they know the Independence movement have a huge head start on propaganda. The Independece movement have been controlling Catalan finances for over 15 years and spending public money on their various projects to achieve their ends. The CUP recently defiantly told Madrid that in the case of intervention 'don't you dare touch the schools' as they know full well they are trying to mould the next generation into believing Spain is robbing Catalunya.
Finally, and sorry to be so long winded again, a quick question for @Anna_Kissed . You seem to be in favor of smaller parts of nations breaking away. But in Scotland the majority turned out not to favor this. In Catalunya, they turned the 2014 elections into a plebiscite on Independence. The Independence group won more seats, hence they have occupied parliament. However they also got less votes. So in a sense they lost. They made it clear that was a referéndum. As they harp on about how they 'just want the right to vote', they carefully ignore the results of the previous election. So why do you think they can impose their views on the majority who are happy to be both atalan and Spanish (when Spain won the world cup, the celebrations here were huge, and that's Calella which is predominantly pro Independence). Why push everyone into the apalling financial and social crisi and the huge división in society, just to satisfy athe large minority who hate Spain. Don't the rest get to determine their destiny too? I realice your view is as valid as mine on this or any other topic, but I'd be genuinely curious to hear your reply, as in Catalunya, the response is that those who don't want Independence are either 2nd class Catalans or Fascists, which is basically hate campaigning.9 -
Surely the Nationalists are those who want to keep the region as part of Spain (the polar opposite to what you have said)?Red_in_SE8 said:I use to admire Barcelona FC and its proud supporters and the fact the club's identity was so closely tied to the region. I now have zero sympathy for Barcelona and Catalonia. They are just another example of small minded arrogant deluded nasty nationalism.
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I always thought the Catalans believed they are a special (all nationalists believe they are special) nation within a nation.i_b_b_o_r_g said:
Surely the Nationalists are those who want to keep the region as part of Spain (the polar opposite to what you have said)?Red_in_SE8 said:I use to admire Barcelona FC and its proud supporters and the fact the club's identity was so closely tied to the region. I now have zero sympathy for Barcelona and Catalonia. They are just another example of small minded arrogant deluded nasty nationalism.
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Thanks for the advice. I think you know where you can shove it!redman said:
F**f if you have nothing sensible to addRed_in_SE8 said:
Did they not look at increasing trade relations with Bangladesh? Apparently this is the way forward for newly independent, stand alone, 'we've taken back our sovereignty', countries.ken_shabby said:Been off this for a while - I was away from Catalunya, and also fairly sick of the whole thing. Driving back from Andalusia on saturday listening to the radio made me remember how Little I missed all of this. A couple of fun quotes when the article 155 was invoked and ten, The mayores of Barcelona, Ada Colau said it was the worst day in 40 years for Barcelona, neatly forgettint the 17 people who died in a terrorist attack on the Ramblas two months ago, Another member of the Catalan Independence movement said they were in 'shock' after the attack on democracy here. To be honest, this sort of childish victimism is really beginning to grind my gears. They neatly forget that they were the ones who invoked an utterly undemocatic referéndum and then tried to apply the results over the heads of all the people who were born here and don't want to see the economy destroyed over such a foolish issue. At the momento, over 400 companies have relocated out of Catalunya, all of which is revenue lost (probably forever if the example of Quebec is to be believed) to the republic.
The pride of place however goes to the CUP anti capitalist party, who only have a limited number of seats but also control the balance of power as they allow the Indepes as they are called, to have a majority in parliament. They were on the radio this morning in all their glory. The curret plan is that Catalunya dosen't need Europe or the Euro, as Europe is equally fascist as Spain. Instead, they will make treaties with other similar countries and trade with....wait for it....Venezuela, Cuba, and some country I can't remember in the Caucasus. You can see the attraction to big businesses to invest here when members of the Govern view the future like that.
As @i_b_b_o_r_g says, it'll be an interesting week. One ting that has come to light here is how much money the Catalan government has been spending with public funds on promoting Independence for the last decade. One ex president handed over 1,000,000 euro to found a radical pro Independence newspapaer, Ara ('Now' in English) and they continue to subsidise it. Ither payments include inviting possibly friendly members of the international press here to explain how badly Independence is neede, and to offer presents for a good write up. Yet more has been spent on kiddies books explaining how Spain has systematically robbed Catalunya forever, and continues to do so until the Catalans shake off the chains of oppression.
I guess my take is still that this could have been avoided if the idiotic Mariano Rajoy had actually offered constructive dialogue six years ago, instead of pompously waving the Catalans away. But the more the covert Independence machinations come to light, the more angry I get that these people are sabotaging the entire country for their inflated egoistic ideas of Independence. Various groups (teachers and members of the Catalan government among others) have already stated that they will not under any circumstance obey orders from Madrid, so there will probably be a head on collision later in the week. For the rest of us, tourism is already calculating a billion euros in lost bookings and cancellations, the property and construction markets have stalled. That is two major players in the Catalan economy. As a friend of mine said yesterday, was it really so bad here that they had to do all of this? And for what gain? Idiots.
When the history books are written it will be a close run contest to decide which is the most stupid, moronic, self-destructive decision by a population in the 21st century, Brexit or the Catalan independence vote.0 -
@ken_shabby ....you stated that Madrid are afraid to hold a proper referendum because of the head start in propaganda terms that the separatists have. Yet over the last few weeks the population of Catalan have seen the hard economic facts of the consequences of independence beginning to actually happen with major companies moving their headquarters and jobs away from Catalonia, and the EU, individual countries within the EU and the US declaring they will not recognise an independent Catalonia. The separatists won't be able dismiss it as Project Fear. Has there been any polling of the Catalan population over the last week?0
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Unfortunately as we saw in both the Scottish and Brexit referendums...populists simply do not trust economists.Red_in_SE8 said:@ken_shabby ....you stated that Madrid are afraid to hold a proper referendum because of the head start in propaganda terms that the separatists have. Yet over the last few weeks the population of Catalan have seen the hard economic facts of the consequences of independence beginning to actually happen with major companies moving their headquarters and jobs away from Catalonia and the EU, individual countries with the EU and the US declaring they will not recognise an independent Catalonia. The separatists won't be able dismiss it as Project Fear. Has there been any polling of the Catalan population over the last week?
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But this is not economists predicting what will happen......it is already happening!Fiiish said:
Unfortunately as we saw in both the Scottish and Brexit referendums...populists simply do not trust economists.Red_in_SE8 said:@ken_shabby ....you stated that Madrid are afraid to hold a proper referendum because of the head start in propaganda terms that the separatists have. Yet over the last few weeks the population of Catalan have seen the hard economic facts of the consequences of independence beginning to actually happen with major companies moving their headquarters and jobs away from Catalonia and the EU, individual countries with the EU and the US declaring they will not recognise an independent Catalonia. The separatists won't be able dismiss it as Project Fear. Has there been any polling of the Catalan population over the last week?
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I just saw one in the catalan El Periodico. Alwsys a bit iffy to trust too much a poll, but this one said if there was an election (NOT a referendum) the scesdionists have gained 0.1% of the vote since elections in 2015, but would lose 2 seats in the Catalan Parliament. I believe that some pensioners are beginning to slide away ftom independence, but as I said, the people I have spoken to who are in favour of Independence see the current trend as a blip which will be restored once the new Republic is up and running. And there is nothing you can say that will sway them from that view.Red_in_SE8 said:@ken_shabby ....you stated that Madrid are afraid to hold a proper referendum because of the head start in propaganda terms that the separatists have. Yet over the last few weeks the population of Catalan have seen the hard economic facts of the consequences of independence beginning to actually happen with major companies moving their headquarters and jobs away from Catalonia, and the EU, individual countries with the EU and the US declaring they will not recognise an independent Catalonia. The separatists won't be able dismiss it as Project Fear. Has there been any polling of the Catalan population over the last week?
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Doesn't really matter. Look what happened on the Brexit thread. Actual, definitive figures that the pound is sliding and growth is slowing but all the Brexiters decry it as fake news or the elite liberal establishment trying to carry on project fear or talk down the economy to try to derail the negotiations.Red_in_SE8 said:
But this is not economists predicting what will happen......it is already happening!Fiiish said:
Unfortunately as we saw in both the Scottish and Brexit referendums...populists simply do not trust economists.Red_in_SE8 said:@ken_shabby ....you stated that Madrid are afraid to hold a proper referendum because of the head start in propaganda terms that the separatists have. Yet over the last few weeks the population of Catalan have seen the hard economic facts of the consequences of independence beginning to actually happen with major companies moving their headquarters and jobs away from Catalonia and the EU, individual countries with the EU and the US declaring they will not recognise an independent Catalonia. The separatists won't be able dismiss it as Project Fear. Has there been any polling of the Catalan population over the last week?
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Let's try to keep this thread away from Brexit or it will get hijacked and turned into a windup to try to get it closed down. This is a really interesting thread and it would be a shame to lose it to cliche and trolling.
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No, nationalists want their "country" to break away from the larger nation, think about who the nationalists are and what they want in Scotland and N.I.i_b_b_o_r_g said:
Surely the Nationalists are those who want to keep the region as part of Spain (the polar opposite to what you have said)?Red_in_SE8 said:I use to admire Barcelona FC and its proud supporters and the fact the club's identity was so closely tied to the region. I now have zero sympathy for Barcelona and Catalonia. They are just another example of small minded arrogant deluded nasty nationalism.
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thanks to the peeps giving background and first hand knowledge of whats going on----interesting. Lets hope they pull back from the brink of violence and return to the table with discussions on autonmy etc.
FFS would the anti Brexit bleaters give it a fucking rest !! im sure there is a huge thread where you can continue to vent,stamp,scream9 -
I could be misreading things a bit here, but if I'm not, a little whoosh is heading your way - the Catalan nationalists, steeped in Civil War propaganda mode, will understand Nationalist to mean fascist Franco supporters.se9addick said:
No, nationalists want their "country" to break away from the larger nation, think about who the nationalists are and what they want in Scotland and N.I.i_b_b_o_r_g said:
Surely the Nationalists are those who want to keep the region as part of Spain (the polar opposite to what you have said)?Red_in_SE8 said:I use to admire Barcelona FC and its proud supporters and the fact the club's identity was so closely tied to the region. I now have zero sympathy for Barcelona and Catalonia. They are just another example of small minded arrogant deluded nasty nationalism.
@i_b_b_o_r_g was being a bit crafty, IMHO.0 -
Ah right, fair enough, whoosh it is.NornIrishAddick said:
I could be misreading things a bit here, but if I'm not, a little whoosh is heading your way - the Catalan nationalists, steeped in Civil War propaganda mode, will understand Nationalist to mean fascist Franco supporters.se9addick said:
No, nationalists want their "country" to break away from the larger nation, think about who the nationalists are and what they want in Scotland and N.I.i_b_b_o_r_g said:
Surely the Nationalists are those who want to keep the region as part of Spain (the polar opposite to what you have said)?Red_in_SE8 said:I use to admire Barcelona FC and its proud supporters and the fact the club's identity was so closely tied to the region. I now have zero sympathy for Barcelona and Catalonia. They are just another example of small minded arrogant deluded nasty nationalism.
@i_b_b_o_r_g was being a bit crafty, IMHO.0 -
just wanted to say thanks mostly to CM and Ken Shabby for providing us with the Catalan/Spain viewpoint and detail re this.
My ex in-laws live in Catalonia - but i'm not asking them for their opinion !3 -
This thread is one of the reasons I finally stopped lurking and registered. Also have a personal interest as the missus is Spanish and currently residing in Madrid, been great hearing all the views of those in country.
She pretty much echos the thoughts and opinions of @CharltonMadrid and @ken_shabby
Although saying that she's from Aragon and did say "we've had to put up with their crap for centuries" so probably wouldn't mind if they made themselves a failed republic5 -
It's a relevant point and it wasn't just Brexit, we were linking it to other populist movements such as Scottish nationalism and Trump where economists and other experts were ignored or labelled as trying to undermine democracy.Goonerhater said:thanks to the peeps giving background and first hand knowledge of whats going on----interesting. Lets hope they pull back from the brink of violence and return to the table with discussions on autonmy etc.
FFS would the anti Brexit bleaters give it a fucking rest !! im sure there is a huge thread where you can continue to vent,stamp,scream
If you don't like it then don't post. Simple really. No need to swear either. Get a grip.0 -
cant see any peaceful resolution to this the spanish (cowardly) heavy handed OB are without doubt going to go in and knock skulls with sticks again
cnuts
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So what choice would you offer @nth london addick ? Under virtually any objective arguement, this whole process in Catalunya has skipped laws, excluded the opposition and ignored over half the population. We are waiting on a statement from 'ex' president Puigdemont, but yesterdays statements were clear that the Catalan parliament is now free of Spain so don't need to obey any instructions from Madrid. If the militant side of the population obey a call to protect the government as a human shield, should Spain just shrug and let them do it? There are almost certainly going to be civil problems and casualties, but blaming the police rather lets the politicians who are manipulating the situation off the hook. When from a law abiding sense, they are the sole cause of any injuries that may occur. Plus the populace who walk out to defend an illegal secession.3
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Potential flashpoint tomorrow night when Girona host Real Madrid, and Real have been assured huge security as the visitors. Arriving by the team bus to the stadium could be like running the gauntlet.
Big pro-Spain rallies today in Madrid again as we wait to see what the next steps from both sides will be. As country after country refuses to acknowledge an independent Catalan state the separatists' cause looks increasingly lost. Have any countries said they would recognise it? Haven't seen any in the news here or looking on the internet yet and would be interested: maybe Venezuela, Cuba and Russia?
Waiting for the news to show Puigdemont's latest speech. Interestingly the Catalan parliament is still flying the Spanish flag from its roof...1
