Argh. @NornIrishAddick you beat me to it. Apparently he's going to make an announcement later today, which should be a show even by his contorted standards. If this is him looking for political sanctuary, the Belgians are going to have some explaining to do.
The Catalan Government in Exile. To be fair it'd hardly be sanctuary, it's in the Schengen Zone. Easily within reach of a EAW.
Argh. @NornIrishAddick you beat me to it. Apparently he's going to make an announcement later today, which should be a show even by his contorted standards. If this is him looking for political sanctuary, the Belgians are going to have some explaining to do.
The Catalan Government in Exile. To be fair it'd hardly be sanctuary, it's in the Schengen Zone. Easily within reach of a EAW.
Agreed - he won't have a chance of escaping them.
Nobody expects the Spanish. Their chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Their three weapons are fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Their four...no... Amongst their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....
Brave sir Puigdemont ran away When danger reared it's ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled. Bravely taking to his feet, He beat a very brave retreat.
Synopsis: You can think about Independence, if you must, but if you dare do something about it - voting, damn you - the State will physically attack you, call your referendum a sham, seek to arrest and jail your top people ...and call for measures that suit the purposes of the status quo.
Synopsis: You can think about Independence, if you must, but if you dare do something about it - voting, damn you - the State will physically attack you, call your referendum a sham, seek to arrest and jail your top people ...and call for measures that suit the purposes of the status quo.
Synopsis: You can think about Independence, if you must, but if you dare do something about it - voting, damn you - the State will physically attack you, call your referendum a sham, seek to arrest and jail your top people ...and call for measures that suit the purposes of the status quo.
They're all fascists aren't they! Who needs the rule of law when you could be run by student politicians....
Argh. @NornIrishAddick you beat me to it. Apparently he's going to make an announcement later today, which should be a show even by his contorted standards. If this is him looking for political sanctuary, the Belgians are going to have some explaining to do.
The Catalan Government in Exile. To be fair it'd hardly be sanctuary, it's in the Schengen Zone. Easily within reach of a EAW.
Agreed - he won't have a chance of escaping them.
Nobody expects the Spanish. Their chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Their three weapons are fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Their four...no... Amongst their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....
The reporter on Channel 4 News tonight actually used the "no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" line in his report from Barcelona tonight. :-)
Not to be alarmist, but history teaches us that this sort of shit is how wars start...
I know most people will think this is tinfoil hat time, but if anything we're well overdue a large-scale conflict. The pettiness and neo-fascist tendencies of people who have continually been fucked over economically in the past thirty years by rampant free market capitalism are coming to the fore across Europe at the moment (Brexit, the rise of the far right in France, separatist movements in Belgium, Spain, Scotland etc, Nationalism in Eastern Europe) - anyone laughing and thinking we can't end up with a conflict like the first and second world wars again is deluding themselves
We live in by far the most dangerous of times since ww2. Sadly, most people are too preoccupied with Kim Kardashian and Kylie fucking Jenner to notice it, and too thick to understand it even if they didn't have their heads buried in the smartphone sand.
Temporarily at leats it's a bit calmer here. The Independence parties who were saying last week they would boycott any imposed elections have belatedly realised they would find themselves out of the decisión making process and have 'nobly' decided to get into election mode. Puigdemont's call for 'peacefull and democratic opposition to the unfair and anti democratic article 155' have foundered in that he has run off and left the rest of his party to do the work for him. The anti capitalist CUP are still demanding an equal attack as a response to article 155 and there is the possibility of a strike with a date available up to next tuesday. However, a lot of the wind has gone out of the current situation and there is a sense that people don't really want to go out on the streets again for politicians who just run away.
On the other hand, the Independent groups have already done a huge amount of damage to Catalunya. For all their anti Spain rhetoric, its hard to imagine the Spanish doing more damage tan that done by the Catalans themselves. In one month of hard work, the percentage of Catalunyas contribution to the Spanish GDP has fallen from over 18% to just over 12%. My wife was in Barcelona yesterday and found it deserted - the shop owners are tearing their hair out. The hotels are empty, as are the restaurants and bars, and once octobers figures are in people are going to start losing their Jobs. All of this comes after years of the Catalan supremacists trumpeting that there would be no economic damage caused by Independence. I can see the point behind thinking it would be a bad move for Madrid to be to harsh punishing the politicians who have done this so selfishly, as it will probably provoke a backlash. But Deep down, I don't see why deliberatly causing so much economic destruction, as well as all the exciting new dividions and hatred we now have here, should be punished with a mere slap on the wrist and a demand not to be so naughty again.
We have democratic elections now in december, where people get to vote for what sort of Generalitat they want. I hope some of the lessons of this october revolution are rememebered then, though I expect a lot of the more entrenched voters will simply try to push on again. But at least I'm happy a lot of my worries about civil unrest and huge violent actions on the streets seem to have departed along with the tourists. It's nice to be wrong sometimes.
Temporarily at leats it's a bit calmer here. The Independence parties who were saying last week they would boycott any imposed elections have belatedly realised they would find themselves out of the decisión making process and have 'nobly' decided to get into election mode. Puigdemont's call for 'peacefull and democratic opposition to the unfair and anti democratic article 155' have foundered in that he has run off and left the rest of his party to do the work for him. The anti capitalist CUP are still demanding an equal attack as a response to article 155 and there is the possibility of a strike with a date available up to next tuesday. However, a lot of the wind has gone out of the current situation and there is a sense that people don't really want to go out on the streets again for politicians who just run away.
On the other hand, the Independent groups have already done a huge amount of damage to Catalunya. For all their anti Spain rhetoric, its hard to imagine the Spanish doing more damage tan that done by the Catalans themselves. In one month of hard work, the percentage of Catalunyas contribution to the Spanish GDP has fallen from over 18% to just over 12%. My wife was in Barcelona yesterday and found it deserted - the shop owners are tearing their hair out. The hotels are empty, as are the restaurants and bars, and once octobers figures are in people are going to start losing their Jobs. All of this comes after years of the Catalan supremacists trumpeting that there would be no economic damage caused by Independence. I can see the point behind thinking it would be a bad move for Madrid to be to harsh punishing the politicians who have done this so selfishly, as it will probably provoke a backlash. But Deep down, I don't see why deliberatly causing so much economic destruction, as well as all the exciting new dividions and hatred we now have here, should be punished with a mere slap on the wrist and a demand not to be so naughty again.
We have democratic elections now in december, where people get to vote for what sort of Generalitat they want. I hope some of the lessons of this october revolution are rememebered then, though I expect a lot of the more entrenched voters will simply try to push on again. But at least I'm happy a lot of my worries about civil unrest and huge violent actions on the streets seem to have departed along with the tourists. It's nice to be wrong sometimes.
Only advantage I can see for your wife is a few bargains in the shops:)
Sadly this whole thing could have a long last affect on the economy.
Temporarily at leats it's a bit calmer here. The Independence parties who were saying last week they would boycott any imposed elections have belatedly realised they would find themselves out of the decisión making process and have 'nobly' decided to get into election mode. Puigdemont's call for 'peacefull and democratic opposition to the unfair and anti democratic article 155' have foundered in that he has run off and left the rest of his party to do the work for him. The anti capitalist CUP are still demanding an equal attack as a response to article 155 and there is the possibility of a strike with a date available up to next tuesday. However, a lot of the wind has gone out of the current situation and there is a sense that people don't really want to go out on the streets again for politicians who just run away.
On the other hand, the Independent groups have already done a huge amount of damage to Catalunya. For all their anti Spain rhetoric, its hard to imagine the Spanish doing more damage tan that done by the Catalans themselves. In one month of hard work, the percentage of Catalunyas contribution to the Spanish GDP has fallen from over 18% to just over 12%. My wife was in Barcelona yesterday and found it deserted - the shop owners are tearing their hair out. The hotels are empty, as are the restaurants and bars, and once octobers figures are in people are going to start losing their Jobs. All of this comes after years of the Catalan supremacists trumpeting that there would be no economic damage caused by Independence. I can see the point behind thinking it would be a bad move for Madrid to be to harsh punishing the politicians who have done this so selfishly, as it will probably provoke a backlash. But Deep down, I don't see why deliberatly causing so much economic destruction, as well as all the exciting new dividions and hatred we now have here, should be punished with a mere slap on the wrist and a demand not to be so naughty again.
We have democratic elections now in december, where people get to vote for what sort of Generalitat they want. I hope some of the lessons of this october revolution are rememebered then, though I expect a lot of the more entrenched voters will simply try to push on again. But at least I'm happy a lot of my worries about civil unrest and huge violent actions on the streets seem to have departed along with the tourists. It's nice to be wrong sometimes.
Only advantage I can see for your wife is a few bargains in the shops:)
Sadly this whole thing could have a long last affect on the economy.
She likes to shop, but you're asking a lot of our income to refloat the Catalan economy single handed.
Puidgemont really does come across as a grade a twat who loves to play the victim. He really does appear to see himself as above Spanish law.
He will make the Catalan region a laughing stock with his behaviour.
They are now citing the Catalan government in exile from Franco's time which shacked up in Paris. The only people giving Puidgment the time of day are Belgian separatists.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the run up to the election - as @ken_shabby states at least the immediate risk of violence has come down. It's now time for those Catalan politicians who want to remain part of Spain to step up and manage the situation.
Article 155 has been invoked but the local state owned media has not been taken over. But might this have to change closer to the election given their partisan position in this mess?
Major events here in last few hours with eight Catalan cabinet ministers including the vice-president Junqueras appearing in court in Madrid charged with sedition and misuse of public funds, then sent to prison tonight. All if this while Puigdemont is in 'exile' in Belgium.
I must admit I am surprised at today's events, and again this could be a misjudgement from the Madrid government which results in more sympathy for the separatists. Being a little more cynical though, many people feel that Puigdemont sent them to Madrid as a ploy to make themselves martyrs whilst he stays out of the country. Today's events could well add a lot of fuel to a very tense situation here.
Is there not some suggestion that Puigdemont being in Belgium meant that it was always likely that they would be held, to avoid flight, and that the Madrid authorities must have known this?
If the judiciary were politically directed as Puigdemont claims, they would not have been jailed (IMHO). But the two others (charged in relation to organising the "referendum") were already in custody, and the possible charges are more serious now.
Mind you, if charged, they may not be able to stand in the elections, so I'd guess the ideal solution for Rajoy would be formal charges and bail tomorrow.
I use to admire Barcelona FC and its proud supporters and the fact the club's identity was so closely tied to the region. I now have zero sympathy for Barcelona and Catalonia. They are just another example of small minded arrogant deluded nasty nationalism.
Surely the Nationalists are those who want to keep the region as part of Spain (the polar opposite to what you have said)?
To be fair to Barcelona ( the City at least) it is worth pointing out that Nationalists came no where near getting a majority in Barcelona (or Tarragona, the other major city) in the last regional elections and its Mayor, Ada Colau is against independence and is arguing for a third way between the Catalan and Spanish Nationalists. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that most of the world's problems can be put down to nationalists whether they be Russian, American, Chinese, English, Scottish, Catalan or Spanish - and that a revival of internationalism is now long overdue as an antidote to the current period of stupidity.
I use to admire Barcelona FC and its proud supporters and the fact the club's identity was so closely tied to the region. I now have zero sympathy for Barcelona and Catalonia. They are just another example of small minded arrogant deluded nasty nationalism.
Surely the Nationalists are those who want to keep the region as part of Spain (the polar opposite to what you have said)?
To be fair to Barcelona ( the City at least) it is worth pointing out that Nationalists came no where near getting a majority in Barcelona (or Tarragona, the other major city) in the last regional elections and its Mayor, Ada Colau is against independence and is arguing for a third way between the Catalan and Spanish Nationalists. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that most of the world's problems can be put down to nationalists whether they be Russian, American, Chinese, English, Scottish, Catalan or Spanish - and that a revival of internationalism is now long overdue as an antidote to the current period of stupidity.
There's a reason for this growth in nationalism or more so protectionism and that's that internationalism hasn't worked, for many, many people.
We need a total rethink of our approach in order stop extreme left/right wing politics growing any further.
I use to admire Barcelona FC and its proud supporters and the fact the club's identity was so closely tied to the region. I now have zero sympathy for Barcelona and Catalonia. They are just another example of small minded arrogant deluded nasty nationalism.
Surely the Nationalists are those who want to keep the region as part of Spain (the polar opposite to what you have said)?
To be fair to Barcelona ( the City at least) it is worth pointing out that Nationalists came no where near getting a majority in Barcelona (or Tarragona, the other major city) in the last regional elections and its Mayor, Ada Colau is against independence and is arguing for a third way between the Catalan and Spanish Nationalists. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that most of the world's problems can be put down to nationalists whether they be Russian, American, Chinese, English, Scottish, Catalan or Spanish - and that a revival of internationalism is now long overdue as an antidote to the current period of stupidity.
There's a reason for this growth in nationalism or more so protectionism and that's that internationalism hasn't worked, for many, many people.
We need a total rethink of our approach in order stop extreme left/right wing politics growing any further.
I would agree that internationalism needs a rethink - but lets not pretend that nationalism does, it has never in the past. Orwell's essay here www.orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat explains why it always transitions to its worse form. Orwell is also very good in explaining the difference between patriotism and nationalism - something that the nationalists always seek to muddy.
It's not nationalism or internationalism that needs a rethink - it's economics. The entire economic system needs a complete overhaul, but it will never happen whilst people who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo are in power - which means 'never' fullstop. You can't tackle something in isolation and expect any level of success when people aren't able/willing/allowed to see the bigger picture. Asking people who are 'well off' in comparison to others to take a hit in living standards is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas - that goes for people living in places where having a slightly less chance of dying of Cholera is considered 'being well off' right the way up to billionaires who consider their worth in comparison to others by the square yardage of their yachts
Note - I don't have any answers here, I'm just remarking on the pragmatic aspects.
Comments
Nobody expects the Spanish. Their chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Their three weapons are fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Their four...no... Amongst their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....
Brave sir Puigdemont ran away
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Bravely taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
His announcement should be fun. Usually late after several redrafts and his coalition partners leak the other versions.
Polls stating 55:41 Are very reassuring given the absolute chaos caused by Catalonia leaving.
Police were smashing the granny out of women live on telly what would they do to him behind closed doors
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/31/inenglish/1509439132_416270.html?id_externo_rsoc=FB_CM_EN
I know most people will think this is tinfoil hat time, but if anything we're well overdue a large-scale conflict. The pettiness and neo-fascist tendencies of people who have continually been fucked over economically in the past thirty years by rampant free market capitalism are coming to the fore across Europe at the moment (Brexit, the rise of the far right in France, separatist movements in Belgium, Spain, Scotland etc, Nationalism in Eastern Europe) - anyone laughing and thinking we can't end up with a conflict like the first and second world wars again is deluding themselves
We live in by far the most dangerous of times since ww2. Sadly, most people are too preoccupied with Kim Kardashian and Kylie fucking Jenner to notice it, and too thick to understand it even if they didn't have their heads buried in the smartphone sand.
On the other hand, the Independent groups have already done a huge amount of damage to Catalunya. For all their anti Spain rhetoric, its hard to imagine the Spanish doing more damage tan that done by the Catalans themselves. In one month of hard work, the percentage of Catalunyas contribution to the Spanish GDP has fallen from over 18% to just over 12%. My wife was in Barcelona yesterday and found it deserted - the shop owners are tearing their hair out. The hotels are empty, as are the restaurants and bars, and once octobers figures are in people are going to start losing their Jobs. All of this comes after years of the Catalan supremacists trumpeting that there would be no economic damage caused by Independence. I can see the point behind thinking it would be a bad move for Madrid to be to harsh punishing the politicians who have done this so selfishly, as it will probably provoke a backlash. But Deep down, I don't see why deliberatly causing so much economic destruction, as well as all the exciting new dividions and hatred we now have here, should be punished with a mere slap on the wrist and a demand not to be so naughty again.
We have democratic elections now in december, where people get to vote for what sort of Generalitat they want. I hope some of the lessons of this october revolution are rememebered then, though I expect a lot of the more entrenched voters will simply try to push on again. But at least I'm happy a lot of my worries about civil unrest and huge violent actions on the streets seem to have departed along with the tourists. It's nice to be wrong sometimes.
Sadly this whole thing could have a long last affect on the economy.
He will make the Catalan region a laughing stock with his behaviour.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the run up to the election - as @ken_shabby states at least the immediate risk of violence has come down. It's now time for those Catalan politicians who want to remain part of Spain to step up and manage the situation.
Article 155 has been invoked but the local state owned media has not been taken over. But might this have to change closer to the election given their partisan position in this mess?
I must admit I am surprised at today's events, and again this could be a misjudgement from the Madrid government which results in more sympathy for the separatists. Being a little more cynical though, many people feel that Puigdemont sent them to Madrid as a ploy to make themselves martyrs whilst he stays out of the country. Today's events could well add a lot of fuel to a very tense situation here.
If the judiciary were politically directed as Puigdemont claims, they would not have been jailed (IMHO). But the two others (charged in relation to organising the "referendum") were already in custody, and the possible charges are more serious now.
Mind you, if charged, they may not be able to stand in the elections, so I'd guess the ideal solution for Rajoy would be formal charges and bail tomorrow.
We need a total rethink of our approach in order stop extreme left/right wing politics growing any further.
Note - I don't have any answers here, I'm just remarking on the pragmatic aspects.