I certainly would subscribe to the images we saw of old ladies being beaten by face covered old bill with sticks
Madrid needs to use diplomacy and words not agresion and violence the Spanish police are too quick to hit out and love a fight and this time they will be no different
I feel for your business and lifestyle I fear your going to have loads of pain over the foreseeable
But the Spanish police being cnuts to people that I is trying to convince are better off by staying sovereign isn’t the way
The vote was illegal the reaction to it even worse imo
Okay, I take the point and thanks for the kind words regarding my business. But I'll repeat. Puigdemont has just said only the Catalan parliament has the power to depose him. He's been sacked. But he plans to be at work at 9 on monday and is calling on the Catalans to defend the Independence of their country. If the police arrive to arrest him and find a wall of voters, not just fit young men up for a rumble, but women with children and old people, it's fairly easy to see where a problem might arise. You can criticise the police for hitting 'peacefull protesters' albeit deliberately blocking them from doing their job, but if I'm going to call people 'cnuts', it'll be the cowardly politicians hiding behind them.
The independence leaders are quite happy to stir things up and make out they are the most repressed people on earth. They have no respect for democracy or the law however much they blather on about it.
Puidgemont seems to be an enormous arsehole barely fit to run a student union and is obviously getting off on his power trip.
@ken_shabby thank you for your detailed analysis. very interesting. I understand your point on the worry about the separatists having a head start on propaganda. I still don't think force is the way to settle this. Could a diplomatic solution be allowed if a period of cooling was allowed before such a vote. Maybe 6 months? The violence and unrest may continue for a long time otherwise.
@ken_shabby thank you for your detailed analysis. very interesting. I understand your point on the worry about the separatists having a head start on propaganda. I still don't think force is the way to settle this. Could a diplomatic solution be allowed if a period of cooling was allowed before such a vote. Maybe 6 months? The violence and unrest may continue for a long time otherwise.
Probably so far back as to need archaeology @redman but right at the start, both @CharltonMadrid and myself said neither side comes out with much credit and this could have been calmed down way back when. Sadly Rajoy didn't want to change anything and the Catalans assumed the only way forward was Independence. Obviously you are right and some sort of dialogue would be vastly preferable to cadualties, possible deaths and a huge amount of bad blood to carry forward. Sadly, I cannot see any common ground where they could possibly meet and back down.
Imagine if Sinn Fein organised a vote for Northern Ireland to join the Republican of Ireland. Their own supporters vote in it (printing ballot papers from the Internet and giving them in to any 'polling station' that Sinn Fein have set up) and Unionists obviously don't as it is not official. Would the fact that it is an overwhelming vote of 'Yes' make it a legitimate election?
That might be the best analogy for the 'vote' I've seen yet.
If anything, I think this episode has been counter-productive to the cause of independence. Aside from the ridiculously heavy-handed brutality of the police, Puidgemont has lost every battle here. More people are starting to see the folly of it all, and now that there's no glossing over the economic nightmare that independence would bring, I bet Rajoy wishes he'd just let them have the vote and ignored it. Interesting that all the bitter pseudo-fascist leanings have started to come to the fore now, with the old 'they're immigrants and not real Catalans, their vote shouldn't count' shite being spouted.
Spoke to my mum the other day - she said there's not much in the way of sentiment one way or the other in the canaries, either from the locals or the ex-pat bits (she has a foot in both camps, so to speak) but that there's a bit of a worry about what it will mean for the piss-poor level of support the government gives the regions if this rumbles on and the economy gets even more fucked than it already is
Hi @ken_shabby You make some valid points in what you wrote. As I see it, this situation is another example of David and Goliath. The ideology and the potential of it is of interest to me. Maybe that's a luxurious position to take when commenting from afar, and one that doesn't take stock of the reality of it all. In essence, I don't like monolithic, conservative structures that rely on people's acquiescence. Should people rebel, these entities hit out. Gandhi and his followers were clubbed by apologists for the status quo. Many others have faced repression when challenging a prevailing orthodoxy. Given that conservative entities won't give up their power without a fight, perhaps it's an inevitability if things are to change. Best wishes to you.
the scenes that we witnessed after the vote can not be allowed to re appear it will never be right to turn violence on to old women and men or anyone else who is peacefully opposed to a view
If they had started to riot and loot and be destructive then potentially the need for violence and strong tactics should be deployed
I hope your business survives I hope you lifestyle remains content and Happy as it sounds like you have given your all
The Spanish government need to find and arbitration and way to talk through this issue there’s no need to rush to resolution as if they do it will just be a violent and short sighted end
You basically don't like the concept of a 'state'. Fair enough. It's generally what anarchy is. Unfortunately, it's also not realistic - unless you're naive enough to think people would all sit round a campfire holding hands singing Kumbiya, or are comfortable with the alternative - namely that a Mad Max style scenario with independent warlords grabbing everything in sight and ruling by force would be the inevitable endgame.
The equation of Puigdemont and his CUP allies with Gandhi is an idea that even the most extravagant separatists would hardly propose in their wildest dreams. This is basically a loud rabble rousing minority trying to impose their will on the majority, who just want to get on with their lives. At least the proper elections coming up (real ones, where you can only vote once) will give everyone a chance to have their voices heard.
Totally agree that more heavy handed police response would be unacceptable but more than just being violent, it would actually be counter-productive in its ineptness again and play into the separatists' hands: it is really the only argument they have and the government can't afford to hand them another propaganda victory on a plate.
The Socialists are at least calling for dialogue, whilst the PP continue to obstinately refuse to enter into any: as Ken said, it is this aloofness and arrogance which has allowed this mess to happen, seized on by the opportunistic Puigdemont and his allies who believe in the 'genetic difference' of Catalans. No-one really comes out of this well, but like many people I have been really impressed by the leader of the opposition in the Catalan parliament Ines Arrimades from the newish centre-right Ciudadanos party (founded on a platform of anti-corruption and Spain unity). If you can get any subtitled versions of her recent speeches on YouTube or anywhere, you will see how most people see her as the voice of the 'silent majority' in Catalunya.
The equation of Puigdemont and his CUP allies with Gandhi is an idea that even the most extravagant separatists would hardly propose in their wildest dreams. This is basically a loud rabble rousing minority trying to impose their will on the majority, who just want to get on with their lives. At least the proper elections coming up (real ones, where you can only vote once) will give everyone a chance to have their voices heard.
A new election sounds like a very good solution where every voter will have a chance to determine the outcome. The "referendum" was no more than a glorified opinion poll with no controls, no debate, and no participation from those who wish to maintain Spain as one entity according to their constitution.
Thanks to CM and KS for reporting from the ground, it's hugely, hugely appreciated. The reporting here in the States hasn't been great, so it's always really nice to see thoughtful, analytical accounts that sort of fill in the blanks.
@ken_shabby thank you for your detailed analysis. very interesting. I understand your point on the worry about the separatists having a head start on propaganda. I still don't think force is the way to settle this. Could a diplomatic solution be allowed if a period of cooling was allowed before such a vote. Maybe 6 months? The violence and unrest may continue for a long time otherwise.
Probably so far back as to need archaeology @redman but right at the start, both @CharltonMadrid and myself said neither side comes out with much credit and this could have been calmed down way back when. Sadly Rajoy didn't want to change anything and the Catalans assumed the only way forward was Independence. Obviously you are right and some sort of dialogue would be vastly preferable to cadualties, possible deaths and a huge amount of bad blood to carry forward. Sadly, I cannot see any common ground where they could possibly meet and back down.
This is a sad conclusion. Certainly not one I or anyone else else from afar can can disagree with. Shame it wasn't forseen and a referendum wasn't held long before. I don't know what is right , wrong or best here but the people should have been given an opportunity to choose. Thanks for your comments as they are far more informative than the BBC or Sky!
The equation of Puigdemont and his CUP allies with Gandhi is an idea that even the most extravagant separatists would hardly propose in their wildest dreams. This is basically a loud rabble rousing minority trying to impose their will on the majority, who just want to get on with their lives. At least the proper elections coming up (real ones, where you can only vote once) will give everyone a chance to have their voices heard.
As I have said to ken thanks for your comments. However the elections coming up do not ask a question about independence. It is not the same. The SNP hold a majority in Scotland but independence was rejected in a proper referendum. Until there is a proper referendum there will always be unrest and at times violent. @ken_shabby thought the Madrid govt were scared of holding a referendum as the the Catalans had a head start on propaganda. He is probably right but unless one is held the unrest and violence will get worse.
The elections will serve as a de-facto referendum vote and Puigdemont has been told that he's welcome to stand. Now he needs to back up the plan of independence with hard facts, while the pro-union parties campaign for Catalunya to stay with Spain. Everybody gets their say: seems totally fair enough.
The elections will serve as a de-facto referendum vote and Puigdemont has been told that he's welcome to stand. Now he needs to back up the plan of independence with hard facts, while the pro-union parties campaign for Catalunya to stay with Spain. Everybody gets their say: seems totally fair enough.
Interesting that Puigemont effectively has to stand in an election that is part of a "foreign" constitution as far as he is concerned. For he and his coalition partners have already declared that they are forming a "new republic" Perhaps they might stand or is there any sign that they won't? And will there be any reliable polling given how polarised the situation must be? The polling will not only influence the campaign but also the flight of capital and business relocations should the separtists look like winning.
What happens if pro-independence parties win a majority in these elections?
If they do then that would give them a mandate to at least seek constitutional change. The independence parties are massively divided though, and the more hardline CUP group have been highly critical of Puigdemont's handling of the situation since the 1st October vote. Many of his own allies in the independence 'big tent' group of disparate leanings have also voiced their own disapproval. It will be interesting to see if the 'Junts per si' (together for yes) coalition runs again or they now splinter into their constituent parts and stand on different platforms for the next election.
Potential flashpoint tomorrow night when Girona host Real Madrid, and Real have been assured huge security as the visitors. Arriving by the team bus to the stadium could be like running the gauntlet.
Big pro-Spain rallies today in Madrid again as we wait to see what the next steps from both sides will be. As country after country refuses to acknowledge an independent Catalan state the separatists' cause looks increasingly lost. Have any countries said they would recognise it? Haven't seen any in the news here or looking on the internet yet and would be interested: maybe Venezuela, Cuba and Russia?
Waiting for the news to show Puigdemont's latest speech. Interestingly the Catalan parliament is still flying the Spanish flag from its roof...
Big unity march in Barcelona today. Estimates vary between 300,000 and 1,000,000. Similar estimates to the last one. Was anybody there who can speak to this or provide insight as to how the ground is shifting? Article from the Guardian about the event.
I caught the catalán TV news this morning, which I'd been avoiding for a bit. We had a few pro-Independence marches over the years here (usualy on 11th september, the Catalan national day) and TV3 generally offers a huge chunk of it's half hour news bulletin to that sort of stuff, so it was interesting that with a big march against Independence yesterday, the march itself was relegated to 4th or 5th spot, Firstly, we had a discussion of whether the sacked politicians in the Generalitat will be able to work normally today. s they are sacked that's a bit unlikely. Secondly was a report in 'the prestigious Independent in London by economics expert Hamish Macrae' explaining that Catalunya can fuction perfectly well as an independent state and that companies will return once this all calms down, They then moved onto the demo, and found some violent incidents to kick off with. They also announce the numbers as between 300,000 (Guardia Civil) and 1,300,000 (the organisers) which is a bit bizarre as the organisers, who probably inflated the marching numbers, only offered 1,100,000 as their figure. They showed a couple of photo's of members of the PP, and moved back to the incidents between the far right and whoever they were attacking - it may well have been TV3 photographers but that wasn't made clear.
I've sort of offered this as at one stage, article 155 which kicked in friday night provisionally was going to include control of TV3 and Catalunya radio. The government wisely steered clear of attacking media outlets, although I imagine the temptation must have been there as the reporting is so wildly biased, which is not a surprise as the generalitat pay for TV3. However, most news outlets show some sort of bias these days, and trying to control a TV station for offering a different viewpoint would have been horrible.
To answer @seriously_red , I would imagine the numbers would be much nearer the Guardia Civil estimate that the organisers, simply becauuse of the two, I can't see much reason for the police to underestimate a figure, but logically the organisers want as big a figure as posible.
There seem to have been a few opinión polls issued over the weekend. I can't remember any off the top of my head sadly, but one stated that around 55% of catalans are in favor of the polls in december, and another in El País suggested that the Independence block may have lost a couple of seats if elections were held tomorrow. If I find anything exact to write while working this morning, I'll come back, but the general impression is that ground may have moved albeit fractionally away from the Independence movement. Either that or some of the lazy non voters may have decided they need to let their voices be heard.
I was watching a Spanish channel (I can't remember which one) and there was good coverage of the anti-indi march. Bizarrely they then went to London to cover an anti-indy demonstration complete with protesters singing Viva España.
I just saw a poll in Catalunya from El Mundo newpaper. In Catalunya, it has been recently described as a Fascist newspaper - I don't generally read it as we have the very good Vanguardia and El Periodico here, so I can't say if it veers any to the right, but the result they have given is that only 33.5% of Catalans currently still back Independence, against 58.3% who would prefer that Catalunya continues with it's current status, which if it is true, is a slap in the face for the Independence parties. There has also however, been a rise in those who want a referéndum, 'legal, and agreed with the Spanish government', where 57.4% are in favor and 37.9% are against. There were a number of other questions, and an interesting one was that in Catalunya, 24.9% want the current situation to end in an Independent Catalunya, 33.8% want more autonomy and local rule, and 19.3% are happy to continue as things are now.
I have to admit a couple of recent results have caught me very wrong footed. My experience in Spain is that the Spanish/Catalans, liek a lot of people, don't like being told what to do, and the block on a referéndum, plus the associated violence on october 1st, would push a lot of voters to go for Independence. I would guess, and this is just me speculating, that the economic news (1700 companies had moved out of Catalunya on friday, and Jobs are starting to go) may have balanced this a little. Also, for a lot of the middle ground voters who are neitehr fanatically one side or the other, the fact that the Generalitat has broken so many laws both Spanish and Catalan, and ridden so blatently over half the population, may also have been a factor.
At this stage on monday morning, the idea that we are going to have elections on 21st december also seems to be sinking in, and a couple of the far left Independence parties (the ERC and CUP) who vowed to abstain from an election as the referéndum was perfectly valid, are now discussing teaming up to make another bid for freedom. It's going to be another interesting week, but thankfully the threat of violence and civil unrest seems to have simmered down a bit which is a relief. Mariano Rajoy organising snap elections may turn out to be a clever move, which is unexpected from his side of the spectrum as he has certainly done enough damage through his refusal to countenance talks over the years. If I get any more news that I can feel confident of being trus, I'll pass it along.
A discussion about the situation, with Spanish journalist Raphael Minder, took place today on Robert Elms' BBC Radio London show (94.9 FM). (If you wish to find it on 'Catch Up', it commenced at approx. 12.08pm).
Here's a link to Raphael's recently-published book, The Struggle for Catalonia: Rebel Politics in Spain
I cannot imagine that they would be establishing a government in exile.
I'm not terribly sure, if true, that it shows Puigdemont in a terribly good light - especially when he was happy to have others lay down in front of riot police.
Argh. @NornIrishAddick you beat me to it. Apparently he's going to make an announcement later today, which should be a show even by his contorted standards. If this is him looking for political sanctuary, the Belgians are going to have some explaining to do.
Comments
Madrid needs to use diplomacy and words not agresion and violence the Spanish police are too quick to hit out and love a fight and this time they will be no different
I feel for your business and lifestyle I fear your going to have loads of pain over the foreseeable
But the Spanish police being cnuts to people that I is trying to convince are better off by staying sovereign isn’t the way
The vote was illegal the reaction to it even worse imo
You can criticise the police for hitting 'peacefull protesters' albeit deliberately blocking them from doing their job, but if I'm going to call people 'cnuts', it'll be the cowardly politicians hiding behind them.
That was various blatent attacks on peaceful protesters
Puidgemont seems to be an enormous arsehole barely fit to run a student union and is obviously getting off on his power trip.
I hope this doesn't end in bloodshed...
If anything, I think this episode has been counter-productive to the cause of independence. Aside from the ridiculously heavy-handed brutality of the police, Puidgemont has lost every battle here. More people are starting to see the folly of it all, and now that there's no glossing over the economic nightmare that independence would bring, I bet Rajoy wishes he'd just let them have the vote and ignored it. Interesting that all the bitter pseudo-fascist leanings have started to come to the fore now, with the old 'they're immigrants and not real Catalans, their vote shouldn't count' shite being spouted.
Spoke to my mum the other day - she said there's not much in the way of sentiment one way or the other in the canaries, either from the locals or the ex-pat bits (she has a foot in both camps, so to speak) but that there's a bit of a worry about what it will mean for the piss-poor level of support the government gives the regions if this rumbles on and the economy gets even more fucked than it already is
You make some valid points in what you wrote. As I see it, this situation is another example of David and Goliath. The ideology and the potential of it is of interest to me. Maybe that's a luxurious position to take when commenting from afar, and one that doesn't take stock of the reality of it all.
In essence, I don't like monolithic, conservative structures that rely on people's acquiescence. Should people rebel, these entities hit out. Gandhi and his followers were clubbed by apologists for the status quo. Many others have faced repression when challenging a prevailing orthodoxy. Given that conservative entities won't give up their power without a fight, perhaps it's an inevitability if things are to change. Best wishes to you.
If they had started to riot and loot and be destructive then potentially the need for violence and strong tactics should be deployed
I hope your business survives I hope you lifestyle remains content and Happy as it sounds like you have given your all
The Spanish government need to find and arbitration and way to talk through this issue there’s no need to rush to resolution as if they do it will just be a violent and short sighted end
The Socialists are at least calling for dialogue, whilst the PP continue to obstinately refuse to enter into any: as Ken said, it is this aloofness and arrogance which has allowed this mess to happen, seized on by the opportunistic Puigdemont and his allies who believe in the 'genetic difference' of Catalans. No-one really comes out of this well, but like many people I have been really impressed by the leader of the opposition in the Catalan parliament Ines Arrimades from the newish centre-right Ciudadanos party (founded on a platform of anti-corruption and Spain unity). If you can get any subtitled versions of her recent speeches on YouTube or anywhere, you will see how most people see her as the voice of the 'silent majority' in Catalunya.
Just seen this El Pais editorial on the 155 response and calling elections
Thanks for your comments as they are far more informative than the BBC or Sky!
@ken_shabby thought the Madrid govt were scared of holding a referendum as the the Catalans had a head start on propaganda. He is probably right but unless one is held the unrest and violence will get worse.
The polling will not only influence the campaign but also the flight of capital and business relocations should the separtists look like winning.
Was anybody there who can speak to this or provide insight as to how the ground is shifting?
Article from the Guardian about the event.
I've sort of offered this as at one stage, article 155 which kicked in friday night provisionally was going to include control of TV3 and Catalunya radio. The government wisely steered clear of attacking media outlets, although I imagine the temptation must have been there as the reporting is so wildly biased, which is not a surprise as the generalitat pay for TV3. However, most news outlets show some sort of bias these days, and trying to control a TV station for offering a different viewpoint would have been horrible.
To answer @seriously_red , I would imagine the numbers would be much nearer the Guardia Civil estimate that the organisers, simply becauuse of the two, I can't see much reason for the police to underestimate a figure, but logically the organisers want as big a figure as posible.
There seem to have been a few opinión polls issued over the weekend. I can't remember any off the top of my head sadly, but one stated that around 55% of catalans are in favor of the polls in december, and another in El País suggested that the Independence block may have lost a couple of seats if elections were held tomorrow. If I find anything exact to write while working this morning, I'll come back, but the general impression is that ground may have moved albeit fractionally away from the Independence movement. Either that or some of the lazy non voters may have decided they need to let their voices be heard.
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/30/inenglish/1509349808_516176.html?id_externo_rsoc=FB_CM_EN
There were a number of other questions, and an interesting one was that in Catalunya, 24.9% want the current situation to end in an Independent Catalunya, 33.8% want more autonomy and local rule, and 19.3% are happy to continue as things are now.
I have to admit a couple of recent results have caught me very wrong footed. My experience in Spain is that the Spanish/Catalans, liek a lot of people, don't like being told what to do, and the block on a referéndum, plus the associated violence on october 1st, would push a lot of voters to go for Independence. I would guess, and this is just me speculating, that the economic news (1700 companies had moved out of Catalunya on friday, and Jobs are starting to go) may have balanced this a little. Also, for a lot of the middle ground voters who are neitehr fanatically one side or the other, the fact that the Generalitat has broken so many laws both Spanish and Catalan, and ridden so blatently over half the population, may also have been a factor.
At this stage on monday morning, the idea that we are going to have elections on 21st december also seems to be sinking in, and a couple of the far left Independence parties (the ERC and CUP) who vowed to abstain from an election as the referéndum was perfectly valid, are now discussing teaming up to make another bid for freedom. It's going to be another interesting week, but thankfully the threat of violence and civil unrest seems to have simmered down a bit which is a relief. Mariano Rajoy organising snap elections may turn out to be a clever move, which is unexpected from his side of the spectrum as he has certainly done enough damage through his refusal to countenance talks over the years. If I get any more news that I can feel confident of being trus, I'll pass it along.
Here's a link to Raphael's recently-published book, The Struggle for Catalonia: Rebel Politics in Spain
https://amazon.co.uk/Struggle-Catalonia-Rebel-Politics-Spain/dp/1849048037
I cannot imagine that they would be establishing a government in exile.
I'm not terribly sure, if true, that it shows Puigdemont in a terribly good light - especially when he was happy to have others lay down in front of riot police.