Climate Emergency

cantersaddick

Stig said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

I think a population cull is going to happen naturally. Eventually I would think that large parts of the planet currently populated are going to become uninhabitable. Crops will fail and sea levels will rise eliminating many large coastal cities. They’ll be mass migrations and no doubt civil unrest. How much of that is certain and how much just probable I have no idea but I’m guessing it’s the former.

Sadly, I think you're right. Perhaps even more sadly, those who have done the least to contribute to climate change will be worst affected and will have the least ability to protect themselves. The Sahara Desert has expanded by 10% in the last hundred years (I'm sure other deserts will have too). As climate change accelerates, so will desertification. It's not inconceivable that practically the whole of North Africa will become uninhabitable; the periodic famines that afflict that region now, becoming permanent and ongoing. Should current trends continue I think we'll see a massive increase in the numbers of people desperately trying to head to Europe to avoid the heat. In response, I'd expect the West to shut up shop and measures to keep out 'economic migrants' to become far more determined and potentially brutal. People will argue that we can't accept any more immigrants because we can't look after our own, and the saddest thing of all is that they will be right. I expect that crop failures to drive food inflation that will make anything caused by covid, Brexit or Putin's war to look like chicken feed. That will lead millions in the west into starvation situations. Sorry for the horrible scenario. I obviously hope that I am completely wrong, but with our current levels of apathy and inaction I can't see any other ending.

I flip between feeling like this and focusing on the slim hope that there could be a green technological and economic revolution and we could transform the way we use the planet but also society in one go... We can hope.

Siv_in_Norfolk

When thinking about potential (idealistic) solutions I find it helps me to think beyond the concept of nation states competing with each other and dream of global governance that maximises the efficiency of resource usage and population distribution 

Could we as a species do this to survive? 

cantersaddick

Stig said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

I think a population cull is going to happen naturally. Eventually I would think that large parts of the planet currently populated are going to become uninhabitable. Crops will fail and sea levels will rise eliminating many large coastal cities. They’ll be mass migrations and no doubt civil unrest. How much of that is certain and how much just probable I have no idea but I’m guessing it’s the former.

Sadly, I think you're right. Perhaps even more sadly, those who have done the least to contribute to climate change will be worst affected and will have the least ability to protect themselves. The Sahara Desert has expanded by 10% in the last hundred years (I'm sure other deserts will have too). As climate change accelerates, so will desertification. It's not inconceivable that practically the whole of North Africa will become uninhabitable; the periodic famines that afflict that region now, becoming permanent and ongoing. Should current trends continue I think we'll see a massive increase in the numbers of people desperately trying to head to Europe to avoid the heat. In response, I'd expect the West to shut up shop and measures to keep out 'economic migrants' to become far more determined and potentially brutal. People will argue that we can't accept any more immigrants because we can't look after our own, and the saddest thing of all is that they will be right. I expect that crop failures to drive food inflation that will make anything caused by covid, Brexit or Putin's war to look like chicken feed. That will lead millions in the west into starvation situations. Sorry for the horrible scenario. I obviously hope that I am completely wrong, but with our current levels of apathy and inaction I can't see any other ending.

And people wonder why I (and a growing number in the younger generations) have no interest in bringing children into the world

ShootersHillGuru

I did read at some point that the Gulf Stream will either collapse or change course away from the U.K. due to desalinisation of the oceans. The article stated that rather than the U.K. becoming warmer, it would be very similar to Scandinavia in terms of weather and temperatures. Certainly survivable when viewed in isolation but scratch the surface and it’s very serious indeed. Forgetting that our agriculture as is would have to change tack in terms of both what we can grow and what animals are suited to extreme winters. there is also the problem that our housing stock which is already the oldest and least energy efficient in Europe would not be adequate for Nordic winters. It’s also fairly unlikely that the Jet Stream as we’ve been used to will behave in the same way it does now. If it regularly appears south of its usual course our weather could be phenomenally colder. Much like northern Scandinavia. I do worry about what will happen and have no real expectation that we’ll do what’s required to minimise the effects, if indeed we can at this stage. 

LTKapal

Would that not make the north in general colder and by proxy help cool the poles? Just a hopeful theory?

kentaddick

LTKapal said:

Would that not make the north in general colder and by proxy help cool the poles? Just a hopeful theory?

no. Just us. We're uniquely positioned in the world as we're strangely temperate for our latitude. 

ShootersHillGuru

kentaddick said:

LTKapal said:

Would that not make the north in general colder and by proxy help cool the poles? Just a hopeful theory?

no. Just us. We're uniquely positioned in the world as we're strangely temperate for our latitude. 

The Gulf Stream is a very important factor in the climate of these isles being as mild as they are. Lose that influence and we’re in trouble. 

Covered End

ShootersHillGuru said:

I did read at some point that the Gulf Stream will either collapse or change course away from the U.K. due to desalinisation of the oceans. The article stated that rather than the U.K. becoming warmer, it would be very similar to Scandinavia in terms of weather and temperatures. Certainly survivable when viewed in isolation but scratch the surface and it’s very serious indeed. Forgetting that our agriculture as is would have to change tack in terms of both what we can grow and what animals are suited to extreme winters. there is also the problem that our housing stock which is already the oldest and least energy efficient in Europe would not be adequate for Nordic winters. It’s also fairly unlikely that the Jet Stream as we’ve been used to will behave in the same way it does now. If it regularly appears south of its usual course our weather could be phenomenally colder. Much like northern Scandinavia. I do worry about what will happen and have no real expectation that we’ll do what’s required to minimise the effects, if indeed we can at this stage. 

Smashing, so I now need to worry that I'm going to be freezing cold in the future, as well as being baking hot.

Alwaysneil

Just chuck another log on the fire. Be ok as long as you plant 30 trees for every 1 you burn, probably. 

PopIcon

Humans by their very nature are greedy, we have an insatiable thirst to take and give very little.

We climbed down from the trees and began our journey 300,000 years ago, i think it's unlikely our journey will last another 300,000.

All mammals become extinct eventually, it's not something to be sad about. Had non avian dinosaurs not been destroyed, we would not be here.

Earth is a continuous flow of life and death. The ice age will end, the oceans will warm, the earth will cool and by then....the baton will have passed and not for the final time.

Fumbluff

Cats and dogs, living together 

JiMMy 85

cantersaddick said:

Stig said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

I think a population cull is going to happen naturally. Eventually I would think that large parts of the planet currently populated are going to become uninhabitable. Crops will fail and sea levels will rise eliminating many large coastal cities. They’ll be mass migrations and no doubt civil unrest. How much of that is certain and how much just probable I have no idea but I’m guessing it’s the former.

Sadly, I think you're right. Perhaps even more sadly, those who have done the least to contribute to climate change will be worst affected and will have the least ability to protect themselves. The Sahara Desert has expanded by 10% in the last hundred years (I'm sure other deserts will have too). As climate change accelerates, so will desertification. It's not inconceivable that practically the whole of North Africa will become uninhabitable; the periodic famines that afflict that region now, becoming permanent and ongoing. Should current trends continue I think we'll see a massive increase in the numbers of people desperately trying to head to Europe to avoid the heat. In response, I'd expect the West to shut up shop and measures to keep out 'economic migrants' to become far more determined and potentially brutal. People will argue that we can't accept any more immigrants because we can't look after our own, and the saddest thing of all is that they will be right. I expect that crop failures to drive food inflation that will make anything caused by covid, Brexit or Putin's war to look like chicken feed. That will lead millions in the west into starvation situations. Sorry for the horrible scenario. I obviously hope that I am completely wrong, but with our current levels of apathy and inaction I can't see any other ending.

I flip between feeling like this and focusing on the slim hope that there could be a green technological and economic revolution and we could transform the way we use the planet but also society in one go... We can hope.

Yeah I try to remember that there are a LOT of smart people working hard to try and solve or counter the issues we face. Younger generations will hopefully have better priorities for who they put into power too.  

At the very least someone came up with the foolproof idea of blocking the sun so there’s always that to fall back on. 

Carter

PopIcon said:

Humans by their very nature are greedy, we have an insatiable thirst to take and give very little.

We climbed down from the trees and began our journey 300,000 years ago, i think it's unlikely our journey will last another 300,000.

All mammals become extinct eventually, it's not something to be sad about. Had non avian dinosaurs not been destroyed, we would not be here.

Earth is a continuous flow of life and death. The ice age will end, the oceans will warm, the earth will cool and by then....the baton will have passed and not for the final time.

Those words whilst very true, scare the shit out of me, just the scale of time. The fa t that we live and exist on a big spinning rock that a few million (MILLION) years ago was inhabited by fascinating creatures but fascinating creatures from nightmares! Then recent history, I get overwhelmed thinking there are a few people alive who in this country have seen phenomenal change. Then the stories/theories of previous ancient civilisations long gone seem less hokum 

Interstellar, the Christopher Nolan film gives me these huge overwhelming thoughts, the fact that the universe is infinite, nah, I'm not someone who suffers fortunately from anxiety but that's the sort of shit to do it! 

We think of Charlton, in two years we will be 125 years old. Seems ancient, and it is old but its chicken feed and then you get these human minds who can harness that brute force scale and make amazing science fiction books, tv shows and films 

JiMMy 85

Carter said:

PopIcon said:

Humans by their very nature are greedy, we have an insatiable thirst to take and give very little.

We climbed down from the trees and began our journey 300,000 years ago, i think it's unlikely our journey will last another 300,000.

All mammals become extinct eventually, it's not something to be sad about. Had non avian dinosaurs not been destroyed, we would not be here.

Earth is a continuous flow of life and death. The ice age will end, the oceans will warm, the earth will cool and by then....the baton will have passed and not for the final time.

Those words whilst very true, scare the shit out of me, just the scale of time. The fa t that we live and exist on a big spinning rock that a few million (MILLION) years ago was inhabited by fascinating creatures but fascinating creatures from nightmares! Then recent history, I get overwhelmed thinking there are a few people alive who in this country have seen phenomenal change. Then the stories/theories of previous ancient civilisations long gone seem less hokum 

Interstellar, the Christopher Nolan film gives me these huge overwhelming thoughts, the fact that the universe is infinite, nah, I'm not someone who suffers fortunately from anxiety but that's the sort of shit to do it! 

We think of Charlton, in two years we will be 125 years old. Seems ancient, and it is old but its chicken feed and then you get these human minds who can harness that brute force scale and make amazing science fiction books, tv shows and films 

Dinosaurs lived on this planet for so long that many of them lived closer to us on the timeline than they did to each other!

seriously_red

ME14addick said:

The loss of more sea ice is of great concern, as once started it is difficult to reverse. It has a huge impact on wildlife as well. 

Climate Change should be at the top of the agenda for all Governments, no country is safe from the effects. Saying that we can't afford it is no excuse, if money needs to be spent now to reduce our emissions, then that is money well spent. It's no good saying that we can't afford it and we will be leaving the monetary debt for future generations, as Climate Change will mean there are no future generations.

Climate change should be at the top of the agenda and yet the green vote across the EU for next year's MEP elections is actually down on 2019. That's right it's down from over 10% (which yielded over 50 MEPs) to 8.1% in spite of more and more fires and extreme weather events.

Labour have adopted Bidenomics including a "Green New Deal" which should help lift GDP growth from a sclerotic 0% 2019-2024. But is that why they are consistently leading in the polls?

And finally, we might agree that no country is safe from the effects of climate change. But power isn't with countries, is it? A disproportionate amount of power is with high net worth individuals and corporations - the 1% if you will.

And elements of the 1% are actively engaged in climate change denial, slowing down change etc.

Most of us won't know the detail of the science. Nor can we cite authoritative sources or the top ways to reverse trends. We probably know about aviation and carbon footprints. And perhaps we have heard something of 1.5 degrees and/or 2030 tipping point. A time where it's predicted that change is irreversible unless we start changing trends very soon.

But can we see a rise in awareness before the 28/29 election cycle across the western world? And where are India and China going on this? 

So I've just looked it up and 2024 is set to be the hottest year on record, but will COP 28 deliver change?

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/17/world/global-warming-breach-wmo-climate-intl/index.html

Raith_C_Chattonell

Some good news - the Scots have come up with a decent alternative to Palm Oil. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/66845876

JamesSeed

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

Some good news - the Scots have come up with a decent alternative to Palm Oil. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/66845876

Would like to buy shares in that!

JamesSeed

Young people increasingly believe their lives could be made drastically worse, or even shortened, by climate change. I find that incredibly sad. 

swordfish

Not wishing to make light of it, but Just Stop Oil have been less in the news of late. Have they taken their foot off the gas?

kentaddick

You could point to the green vote going down as a bad thing, but maybe that's because the other mainstream parties are taking climate change more and more seriously? 

Karim_myBagheri

This I know is a incredibly stupid and naive thought... 

we have freezers that can produce ice and keep Ice. Could we not stick a large freezer in the arctic ocean (paid for by the oil and gas companies) to make the ocean cooler thus creating or sustaining the ice and keeping the waters temperature down. 

One problem (after the thousand others) how would you run the freezer? Need a lot of electricity...

ShootersHillGuru

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

Some good news - the Scots have come up with a decent alternative to Palm Oil. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/66845876

Peat oil ? 

SporadicAddick

swordfish said:

Not wishing to make light of it, but Just Stop Oil have been less in the news of late. Have they taken their foot off the gas?

They've definitely run out of energy. 

kentaddick

swordfish said:

Not wishing to make light of it, but Just Stop Oil have been less in the news of late. Have they taken their foot off the gas?

They’ve all gone back to university 

PopIcon

JiMMy 85 said:

Carter said:

PopIcon said:

Humans by their very nature are greedy, we have an insatiable thirst to take and give very little.

We climbed down from the trees and began our journey 300,000 years ago, i think it's unlikely our journey will last another 300,000.

All mammals become extinct eventually, it's not something to be sad about. Had non avian dinosaurs not been destroyed, we would not be here.

Earth is a continuous flow of life and death. The ice age will end, the oceans will warm, the earth will cool and by then....the baton will have passed and not for the final time.

Those words whilst very true, scare the shit out of me, just the scale of time. The fa t that we live and exist on a big spinning rock that a few million (MILLION) years ago was inhabited by fascinating creatures but fascinating creatures from nightmares! Then recent history, I get overwhelmed thinking there are a few people alive who in this country have seen phenomenal change. Then the stories/theories of previous ancient civilisations long gone seem less hokum 

Interstellar, the Christopher Nolan film gives me these huge overwhelming thoughts, the fact that the universe is infinite, nah, I'm not someone who suffers fortunately from anxiety but that's the sort of shit to do it! 

We think of Charlton, in two years we will be 125 years old. Seems ancient, and it is old but its chicken feed and then you get these human minds who can harness that brute force scale and make amazing science fiction books, tv shows and films 

Dinosaurs lived on this planet for so long that many of them lived closer to us on the timeline than they did to each other!

Indeed, the Mesozoic period lasted almost 200 million years. Stegosaurs was munching greens around a 150 million years ago and the Tyrannosaurus was munching anything that moved 65 million years ago. It puts the t-rex a lot closer to us.

CAFCTrev

Reading this has made me thoroughly depressed and utterly helpless. 

swordfish

CAFCTrev said:

Reading this has made me thoroughly depressed and utterly helpless. 

It's a Charlton Life thread. What were you expecting? 😉

Braziliance

This subject always reminds me of Wesker's speech in Resident Evil 5 

JamesSeed

kentaddick said:

swordfish said:

Not wishing to make light of it, but Just Stop Oil have been less in the news of late. Have they taken their foot off the gas?

They’ve all gone back to university 

Many of the were/are old people. 

ShootersHillGuru

Thing is, we’re the first and only species to inhabit the earth with the ability to make significant changes to our environment for both good and bad. In reality man is coming out of its infancy in terms of industrialisation and polluting. When it started, the Victorians gave no thought to burning coal or the use of chemicals. Now we know what those intervening years have done and have the ability to change what we do and we are. The question really is are we prepared to actually suffer to reverse that environmental damage. I don’t think we are. I’ve said it all along that it’s going to take an environmental catastrophe in one of the worlds major players like in the USA or Europe before we really wake up. Yes we can all play our small part but the people who can really make a difference are still looking at this as either political point scoring or in the main as a money spinning opportunity.