Holden sacked?! (Ed. Yes - Confirmed)

Todds_right_hook

sam3110 said:

Cafc43v3r said:

sam3110 said:

Did Holden not get what he was promised then? Sounds more like they offered him extra help and he turned it down, and instead he wasn't delivering on what he promised, and got the sack for it

Look at the squad we had at the start of the season.  None of them helped themselves but...

Not like we held out til he was sacked to sign 10 players is it? The crux of the squad was the same, and injuries aren't the fault of Scott and the owners or Holden.

To suggest he was acting up because he didn't get the players he wanted is a red herring, he paid the price for the worst start in the third tier Charlton have endured

Exactly! The team he put out at Oxford shows that he had no idea on what team or formation to play. He lost it and paid the price. 

Yes he had players out but his tactics and substitutions were poor

NabySarr

sam3110 said:

Cafc43v3r said:

sam3110 said:

Did Holden not get what he was promised then? Sounds more like they offered him extra help and he turned it down, and instead he wasn't delivering on what he promised, and got the sack for it

Look at the squad we had at the start of the season.  None of them helped themselves but...

Not like we held out til he was sacked to sign 10 players is it? The crux of the squad was the same, and injuries aren't the fault of Scott and the owners or Holden.

To suggest he was acting up because he didn't get the players he wanted is a red herring, he paid the price for the worst start in the third tier Charlton have endured

It was obviously his plan to play 3-5-2 with a partner for May, that’s why we signed him. He was never given the opportunity to actually do it though as we never had a proper partner before he was sacked.

That’s why we often changed formations, or looked like he didn’t know his best team or set up. He didn’t have the striker to set up how he planned to from day 1 of pre-season 

I don’t think sacking him was wrong, we were very naive defensively and that Oxford winner summed it up. But what I don’t get is why we didn’t hire a replacement with a similar plan, to give May a partner and get the best out of our high profile signing 

mendonca

I didn't expect it from Dean (and his straight talking), but did he turn us into a soft touch?

Swisdom

Apparently the players are working much harder in training now than they were previously.  A few had taken their foot off the gas as Holden was too much of a "mate" or a nice guy.

Appleton has his way of doing things and it's slightly different to the Holden approach shall we say

Rob

I’ve noticed it in CBT. He seems a lot stronger at running at players. Also, the stamina of the players in general is far better now. Even Chuks looks fitter and stronger. That’s important as he is always a potential game changer. 

redlanered

Rob said:

I’ve noticed it in CBT. He seems a lot stronger at running at players. Also, the stamina of the players in general is far better now. Even Chuks looks fitter and stronger. That’s important as he is always a potential game changer. 

Hector, too, IMO.  

Addick Addict

I do find it somewhat strange that the one commodity of a top PL side, namely the ability to compete for 90 minutes, that can be replicated isn't a given for all teams at all levels. 

Cafc43v3r

Swisdom said:

Apparently the players are working much harder in training now than they were previously.  A few had taken their foot off the gas as Holden was too much of a "mate" or a nice guy.

Appleton has his way of doing things and it's slightly different to the Holden approach shall we say

This concerns me because it keeps happening despite it being a totally different group of players.  Almost every manager we get says the players aren't fit enough.

All the coaches are different, all the players are different.  I really struggle to see a common denominator.  You can say what you like about Adkins, Jackson, Garner and Holden but they have all been in the game long enough to know what the standards should be, and have some idea on how to maintain them.  Holden played for Sam Allardyce FFS.

Stu_of_Kunming

Addick Addict said:

I do find it somewhat strange that the one commodity of a top PL side, namely the ability to compete for 90 minutes, that can be replicated isn't a given for all teams at all levels. 

How often do prem teams actually compete for the full 90 though? 

Chunes

Cafc43v3r said:

Swisdom said:

Apparently the players are working much harder in training now than they were previously.  A few had taken their foot off the gas as Holden was too much of a "mate" or a nice guy.

Appleton has his way of doing things and it's slightly different to the Holden approach shall we say

This concerns me because it keeps happening despite it being a totally different group of players.  Almost every manager we get says the players aren't fit enough.

All the coaches are different, all the players are different.  I really struggle to see a common denominator.  You can say what you like about Adkins, Jackson, Garner and Holden but they have all been in the game long enough to know what the standards should be, and have some idea on how to maintain them.  Holden played for Sam Allardyce FFS.

I suppose the only common denominator is us being a poorly run club with no real infrastructure. Have we even had a fitness & conditioning coach? Even going all the way back to Bowyer, he used to say he didn't have one. 

AFKABartram

Considering he positioned himself as a real fan, man of the common people, “south east london has taken me to its heart” yadda yadda, I’m still narked he never bothered to give a ‘thanks for your support, really appreciate it’ message.

Given the situation he was given great support by the fans, a bit baggy behaviour in my eyes 

charente addick

Addick Addict said:

I do find it somewhat strange that the one commodity of a top PL side, namely the ability to compete for 90 minutes, that can be replicated isn't a given for all teams at all levels. 

Fitness was one of our key strengths in the Prem. No matter how talented you are, you can’t compete without a high fitness level - it’s the base that allows one’s talent to flourish. As an example, I think Paulo Di Canio was one of the fittest players I’ve ever seen.

killerandflash

Pre season, for whatever reason, was a failure.

Defensively we were a shambles, with no settled CB pairing, while fitness wasn't good enough. And that's comparing our players with those of smaller clubs, who don't have massive resources and loads of backroom staff.

Cafc43v3r

Chunes said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Swisdom said:

Apparently the players are working much harder in training now than they were previously.  A few had taken their foot off the gas as Holden was too much of a "mate" or a nice guy.

Appleton has his way of doing things and it's slightly different to the Holden approach shall we say

This concerns me because it keeps happening despite it being a totally different group of players.  Almost every manager we get says the players aren't fit enough.

All the coaches are different, all the players are different.  I really struggle to see a common denominator.  You can say what you like about Adkins, Jackson, Garner and Holden but they have all been in the game long enough to know what the standards should be, and have some idea on how to maintain them.  Holden played for Sam Allardyce FFS.

I suppose the only common denominator is us being a poorly run club with no real infrastructure. Have we even had a fitness & conditioning coach? Even going all the way back to Bowyer, he used to say he didn't have one. 

That is true but the narrative has been, and there is probably a lot of truth in it, that the players worked harder when Adkins was sacked, when Garner was sacked and now when Holden was sacked.

If they are now doing the necessary work the infrastructure isn't the cause is it?  Although there is no doubt it could be a lot better.

Addick Addict

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Addick Addict said:

I do find it somewhat strange that the one commodity of a top PL side, namely the ability to compete for 90 minutes, that can be replicated isn't a given for all teams at all levels. 

How often do prem teams actually compete for the full 90 though? 

The possession stats for the likes of City isn't solely down to their ability to retain the ball - it's also down to the fact that they press in packs to win it back which only works if every player is fit enough to do that. 

killerandflash

Addick Addict said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Addick Addict said:

I do find it somewhat strange that the one commodity of a top PL side, namely the ability to compete for 90 minutes, that can be replicated isn't a given for all teams at all levels. 

How often do prem teams actually compete for the full 90 though? 

The possession stats for the likes of City isn't solely down to their ability to retain the ball - it's also down to the fact that they press in packs to win it back which only works if every player is fit enough to do that. 

Klopp's Liverpool at their peak worked incredibly hard off the ball. It was their aging midfield which was where it went wrong last season, as they weren't able to press like they used to.

Henry Irving

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12986223/dean-holden-im-over-charlton-sacking-football-has-taught-me-a-mental-reslience

Henry Irving

Shame the interview is so short, would like to have heard more.

First I've heard about the two letters from the FA saying we should have had two penalties.

PragueAddick

Rob said:

I’ve noticed it in CBT. He seems a lot stronger at running at players. Also, the stamina of the players in general is far better now. Even Chuks looks fitter and stronger. That’s important as he is always a potential game changer. 

I have noticed it in CBT too. So has Curbs. He used to have CBT as one of the players who needed to be kept in cotton wool because he couldnt do 90 mins. 

Well now he can. He has been one of our most consistent players this season.

Trouble is, its been true from the first game of the season. So you cant pin his improvement on the sacking of Holden. 

Six-a-bag-of-nuts

Henry Irving said:

Shame the interview is so short, would like to have heard more.

First I've heard about the two letters from the FA saying we should have had two penalties.

I find that a bit strange.
Why would the FA bother writing letters to a club to tell them they should have had 2 penalties.
The obvious answer I suppose is that somebody from the club wrote a complaint or enquiry questioning the decisions, but even then I would expect the response to be anodyne or non-commital.
Can't see them undermining the officials in writing.

LargeAddick

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Henry Irving said:

Shame the interview is so short, would like to have heard more.

First I've heard about the two letters from the FA saying we should have had two penalties.

I find that a bit strange.
Why would the FA bother writing letters to a club to tell them they should have had 2 penalties.
The obvious answer I suppose is that somebody from the club wrote a complaint or enquiry questioning the decisions, but even then I would expect the response to be anodyne or non-commital.
Can't see them undermining the officials in writing.

Referees are assessed all the time so it’s probably part of the process. In the PL the PMGL or whatever they are called are always apologising, such as to Klopp after the Spurs debacle, and refs removed from the next set of fixtures as a result. Similar to that I expect.

Six-a-bag-of-nuts

LargeAddick said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Henry Irving said:

Shame the interview is so short, would like to have heard more.

First I've heard about the two letters from the FA saying we should have had two penalties.

I find that a bit strange.
Why would the FA bother writing letters to a club to tell them they should have had 2 penalties.
The obvious answer I suppose is that somebody from the club wrote a complaint or enquiry questioning the decisions, but even then I would expect the response to be anodyne or non-commital.
Can't see them undermining the officials in writing.

Referees are assessed all the time so it’s probably part of the process. In the PL the PMGL or whatever they are called are always apologising, such as to Klopp after the Spurs debacle, and refs removed from the next set of fixtures as a result. Similar to that I expect.

Interesting. Thanks for that mate.
I'd forgotten about that Klopp incident

Elthamaddick

still gutted it didn't work out for him here, really liked the fella

wish him well wherever he goes next

ElfsborgAddick

Elthamaddick said:

still gutted it didn't work out for him here, really liked the fella

wish him well wherever he goes next

The dole office.

MuttleyCAFC

I think it is unfair to be disapointed with him. He has said only nice things about the club and the fans and would have been upset to get the sack. I still don't think it was fair but Applieton is our manager now and is doing a decent job. He has had a bit of luck with players returning and the gaps between fixtures to work with the players, but I haven't got a problem with that. Holden moves on and so do we.

mendonca

He's a sound chap, but has some struggles  adapting within games and tactically. 

For all his 'ard man persona, it appears he was a soft touch with the players?

Off_it

I liked Holden.

After Jackson, and possibly Bowyer, I liked him most out of all of the cack managers we've had since Powell. Which possibly isn't saying much, admittedly, but there it is. 

SDAddick

AFKABartram said:

Considering he positioned himself as a real fan, man of the common people, “south east london has taken me to its heart” yadda yadda, I’m still narked he never bothered to give a ‘thanks for your support, really appreciate it’ message.

Given the situation he was given great support by the fans, a bit baggy behaviour in my eyes 

Yeah, that and walking down the tunnel without applauding the fans at Oxford.

I think he is well media trained, and clearly his time in the game makes it so that he knows what to say to the supporters. And maybe that is genuine. But it felt like that was kind of all there was to him. I think he seems like a nice bloke but I don't think being that kind of manager is enough these days. You have to have something about you tactically, and he emphatically did not.

thenewbie

Off_it said:

I liked Holden.

After Jackson, and possibly Bowyer, I liked him most out of all of the cack managers we've had since Powell. Which possibly isn't saying much, admittedly, but there it is. 

Certainly on a purely personal level he probably is one of the more personable and likeable managers we've had. On the other hand that might have been part of his problems at the end - if his approach relied on players "buying in" but they did not (for whatever reason) then he may not have had the level of authority any more.

Someone like Appleton on the other hand is probably less concerned with being "liked" by the players and more about being listened to. I am not saying he's going out of his way to bully players but you can visibly see that work rate, physical fitness etc seem to have increased under the new manager and that won't have happened without hard work.

Pure speculation by me though.

Raith_C_Chattonell

Elthamaddick said:

still gutted it didn't work out for him here, really liked the fella

wish him well wherever he goes next

I believe he’s going to Tumbledown Cottage, the rehab home for failed League One managers, where he will surely meet Garner. They don’t promise miracles, but do have a good record in advising how to:-

Get defenders to kick the ball hard up the pitch.

Dump the tippy tappy style.

Stop goalies from messing about

Use substitutions when your team can’t get near the ball.

Avoid fantasising about being a Premiership team

Decline from bigging up the area you move into - until you’ve taken a walk around - preferably with a baseball bat.

Avoid football press gangs who pay the King’s shilling.  (The only outcome is to cop the blame for everything).

Stop buying pints for the supporters

Stop being mates with squad members.

Tumbledown Mission Statement

At the end of the course, managers will be reinvigorated enough to ...

Rejoin the EFL Football manager's Merry-Go-Round.

Be able to set their stall out.

Exercise a charm Offensive.

Hint how things were just beginning to turn around at the previous sacking.

Talk the hind legs off a donkey.